Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
The EU has not made any demands regarding the sovereignity of Gibraltar.
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UK set to trigger Brexit on March 29
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The EU has not made any demands regarding the sovereignity of Gibraltar.
UE draft guidelines, article nº 22:
I don´t see the EU questioning the UK's sovereignity over Gibraltar.
Don´t try to find any logic or true facts on UK's tabloids, you won`t find any.
the EU is supporting a country that is questioning the sovereignty instead of telling Spain to shut up already. but apparently that's okay since spain is still an EU country and the UK is on it's way out..
PJV3
Member
The whole of the commonwealth better get automatically accepted with the UK or we will nuke Brussels.
Don't you know who we are.
Shouldnt leave if you want the support of the EU. EU is simply standing up for its members.
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
Look at who you're responding to. Logic and facts about Brexit are not their strong suit. Of course, your own reply notes that. : p
PJV3
Member
I don't see how this mess can be anyone's responsibility but the people who voted for it.
Miles Quaritch
Member
What?
You're upset that the EU is supporting a member instead of the one who is leaving? What?
I thought you guys don't want EU to tell a member country what to do.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
To be fair, as we have gone over in the past, successive Spanish governments have questioned Gibraltar's sovereignty many, many times.
Plus this apparently happened earlier today.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/04/new-spanish-patrol-boat-incursion-gibraltars-waters/
Plus this apparently happened earlier today.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/04/new-spanish-patrol-boat-incursion-gibraltars-waters/
stop being obtuse. We have every right to be upset at the EU supporting a country that is questioning the sovereignity of one of our territories. the argumentation being put forward here is that's it's natural for the EU to support member states who question the sovereignity of others against the will of the local poluation. instead of, you know, respecting the will of the population and the democratically elected government.
but then what else can you expect from the EU. just shows what a shitty organisation it is.
What was the will of the local population on leaving the EU?
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Pretty sure they'll stick with Britain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar_sovereignty_referendum,_1967
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibraltar_sovereignty_referendum,_2002
Miles Quaritch
Member
Those people will never care about you or how hard you've worked, they've lost all sense and anyone who isn't like them or from where they are is the enemy, an elite, someone who can't be trusted and is working to keep them down and ruin the country.
It's infuriating, but to my point, you should leave. There's no point in sticking around and trying to help the country 'muck through'. Leave and find a better life before you're stuck here, because free movement and your right to settle easily in the EU will be gone soon.
Frankfurter
Member
I'm curious, what exactly did Spain say regarding Gibraltar sovereignty?
Haters gonna hate.gif
Haters gonna hate.gif
Muffin1611
Banned
Because Britain is completely innocent in the Gibraltar debate and never made claims on any territorial waters that they had no right to, right? /s
If you honestly think that Gibraltar will be annexed or some shit, you're deluded. The EU knows that there are problems between Britain and Spain about it, hence they made it so Gibraltar can have a separate deal and Spain won't block the whole trade deal. They're doing Britain a favour.
Again, Britain didn't even mention Gibraltar in their letter to the EU, while the EU did. One of those two seems to care more about handling obvious problems well.
They're obviously playing double-handed Rock Paper Scissors. I see Britain wielding two glorious papers, while Germany failed thoroughly by relying on a boring double rock. Checkmate, Germany.
Miles Quaritch
Member
This is embarrassing. You're just regurgitating arguments that are playing out on pro leave twitter pages instead of thinking rationally and looking at what's actually been said.
Sovereignty
synonyms: jurisdiction, supremacy, dominion, power, ascendancy, suzerainty, tyranny, hegemony, domination, sway, predominance, authority, control, influence, rule
I'd say the point of the EU draft negotiation's is for Spain to have a few of these over Gibraltans.
Clearly shameless.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
You're confused. Spain does NOT want Gibraltar to get a differentiated deal unless there's a sacrifice (of guess what) and the EU is backing them up. The UK has consistently said they will not enter into negotiations on Gibraltar's future without the consent of Gibraltarians, who have twice voted by ~99 percent to remain British nationals or citizens and retain full self-government.
The EU is doing the UK no favours right now. You are really confused right now.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/31/future-of-gibraltar-at-stake-in-brexit-negotiations
PJV3
Member
It has always been so that you need the members of the union to accept who gets access. It's just how it is.
Frankfurter
Member
Is that backed up by anything that Spain or the EU actually said?
If the UK gave a shit about Gibraltar, then they wouldn't leave. Or at least would have a public position on what they want for Gibraltar.
They have said jack shit other than overreact angrily over nonsense.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Nonsense.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/31/future-of-gibraltar-at-stake-in-brexit-negotiations
This is what started this whole mess. If you know anything about Gibraltar you know what "agreement with the Spaniards about Gibraltar's future" is...
Also, "if the UK gave a shit about -insert blank-" give me a break. It's ~32,000 people who don't get to chart the course of ~65 million, even if that course is foolish.
Yes. Granted, it might be slightly subtle, hence why so many of you are confused.
Of course not, but it's certainly implied otherwise why would it need a separate agreement with the Spanish government?
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Repeat after me:
The EU has not made any comments regarding the sovereignty of Gibraltar.
Spain has not made any comments regarding the sovereignty of Gibraltar since the declaration and the current Minister of Foreign Affairs would prefer a different tone.
Gibraltar's peculiar status means that it needs to be addressed separately. It also means that Spain is extremely unlikely to torpedo a deal with rUK.
Theresa May of all people has said that the whole situation is being hugely exaggerated.
Maybe things are getting out of hand when May of all people tells the tabloids to chill.
The EU has not made any comments regarding the sovereignty of Gibraltar.
Spain has not made any comments regarding the sovereignty of Gibraltar since the declaration and the current Minister of Foreign Affairs would prefer a different tone.
Gibraltar's peculiar status means that it needs to be addressed separately. It also means that Spain is extremely unlikely to torpedo a deal with rUK.
Theresa May of all people has said that the whole situation is being hugely exaggerated.
Maybe things are getting out of hand when May of all people tells the tabloids to chill.
Frankfurter
Member
I see. So nothing.
The whole Spain has an extra say to me seems just to appease Spain a bit. Spain, just like very other EU country can veto any deal with the UK anyway.
PJV3
Member
Perhaps they want the Gibraltan access not to be based on UK relations but on condition of Spanish agreement.
It's kind of petty but patriotic people get off on that kind of stuff.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Things have certainly gotten off to a fantastic start...
They've given them this 'extra' veto precisely so they don't feel they have to torpedo the full deal over issues over Gibraltar.
Regardless of the rights and wrongs of Spain's position over the sovereignty of Gibraltar, one of the Spain's biggest bugbears has been the continued smuggling of tobacco and liqueur from the tax haven on it's border. They'll want that sorted.
btw it's not the EU or Spain's fault that the economy of Gibraltar is not viable without Single Market access and land access via Spain.
So far, nothing has happened that the average Remainer couldn't have told you before the vote. This is not a fantastic start, it is the expected start.
Granted, nobody expected UK to be quite as delusional or diplomatically inept. However, at best that only sped things up a bit.
Repeat after me:
Spain has time and again questioned the sovereignity of Gibraltar.
The EU is supporting a member state as a matter of course in an issue regarding the sovereignity of Gibraltar instead of telling spain that it has no right on Gibraltar, that the people of Gibraltar don't want it and that they should back off.
'people are saying the same thing on twitter, so you are wrong!'
and I'm the embarassing one.
That Great Britain was acting like idiots. That is it.
And? The UK has a fucking terrible history when it comes to respecting sovereignty. It wasn't that long ago we handed back Hong Kong despite the wishes of the locals (and no we didn't need to hand back Hong Kong just the new territories)
And Diego Garcia remains a national disgrace, not a lot of respecting the will of the people there.
Spain gave up leverage in regards to Gibraltar to enter the EEC in 86, they're taking it back now. If they want to use their power within the EU to limit the economic viability of the tax haven on their doorstep then that's up to them. Might not be particular nice, but international relations typically aren't. We had the power to prevent that for 30 odd years, we decided to give it up 'despite' the wishes of the Gibraltarians who saw it all coming. It's not Spain or the EU's fault that Gibraltar is only viable with Single market access and a open land border with Spain, it might be different if we could turn back the clock and still have a massive Royal Navy for the Gibraltarians to service while they live in poverty and squalor but we can't and times have moved on.
Funny enough this sort of nonsense between European powers is precisely one of the things the EU was designed to prevent.
Muffin1611
Banned
As other people in this thread already said, there has been no comments from Spain or the EU regarding Gibraltars sovereignty. Spain didn't call for any sacrifice. Neither did the EU.
The EU lowered the possibility of Spain to block the whole deal because of Gibraltar by separating it from the rest of the deal.
That's quite a favor for a country in a negotiating position as bad as the UK. Especially considering the consequences the UK would face if they wouldn't get a deal.
Spain has never questioned the sovereignity of Gibraltar.
The issues Spain has with Gibraltar are:
- Territorial waters, as Gib isn´t entlited to them by the Utrech treaty.
- The Isthmus land grabbing by the UK, again, see the Utrech treaty.
- Gib being a tax haven and the money laundering and smuggling of cigarettes, alcohol... into Spain.
They all sound very reasonable to me.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
In all fairness Margallo called for joint sovereignty, but Margallo is no longer the Minister of Foreign Affairs and his successor has revamped the whole office.
This is patriotic chest bumping and nothing else. Let's leave the nationalistic hysteria for the time Spain actually demands joint sovereignty in exchange for access to the rUK deal if it comes to that.
CyclopsRock
Member
Never?!
It's not just Brexiteers.
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
...That is objectively wrong, hence why there had to be two referendums in which joint sovereignty was declined. There was also the call for it again just last year.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Spain has demanded joint sovereignty in the past.
Spain is not doing it right now nor implying it as a condition for anything.
And even if it did, the talk about sending the gunboats over words about some kind of legal agreement to be discussed with the UK is mental and speaks lower of the people bringing it as a valid point than it does about any kind of dickery ever pulled by Spain over the rock.
Just chill. Nothing is happening.
Spain is not doing it right now nor implying it as a condition for anything.
And even if it did, the talk about sending the gunboats over words about some kind of legal agreement to be discussed with the UK is mental and speaks lower of the people bringing it as a valid point than it does about any kind of dickery ever pulled by Spain over the rock.
Just chill. Nothing is happening.
You're damn right, my country will probably be impacted more by Brexit than the UK.
PJV3
Member
It's not been that bad really, there is nothing the UK can do about it anyway except walk away.
PdotMichael
Banned
It's absurd after one of the argument for Brexit was that it would collapse the EU. But self awareness is not a strong side of the British folk those days.
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