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Venom Movie Aiming to be R-Rated, Kick Off Spidey-Connected Universe

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B

Boem

Member
StoopKid said:
No chance Spider-Man will be in these movies.

http://variety.com/2015/film/news/sony-hack-peter-parker-spider-man-white-straight-1201524150/
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I don't see anything in that quote that proves that honestly. I agree, the movie being R-rated lowers the chances of Spiderman making a cameo, but it's not like Spiderman is going to start cursing and smoking cigars just because he's in an R-rated movie.

Not every character in an R-rated movie needs to act R-rated for a movie to get that rating.
 
D

darkhunger

Member
serenewarfare said:
That makes no sense though. If there's no money involved, then literally the only thing Marvel could want out of the character is that he's treated well enough to have value to their universe. And that doesn't happen if Sony puts him in terrible movies.

And plus, Sony is absolutely making big money off of this. They get all of the money from Homecoming. All of it. And that movie will make more because it is using MCU characters like Iron Man.
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Umm, no? Spider-Man was allowed to appear in Civil War (for which Sony got zero dimes for) and will appear in Avengers 3 as well.
 
T

Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!

Member
serenewarfare said:
That makes no sense though. If there's no money involved, then literally the only thing Marvel could want out of the character is that he's treated well enough to have value to their universe. And that doesn't happen if Sony puts him in terrible movies.
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The idea that if he's in bad movies he will be damaged goods isn't necessarily true though. People still love Hugh Jackman as Wolverine even though he's been in a lot of terrible X-Men movies. Christopher Reeve was also in some truly terrible Superman movies but he's still considered to be the definitive Superman by a lot of people.
 
P

Penguin

Member
serenewarfare said:
That makes no sense though. If there's no money involved, then literally the only thing Marvel could want out of the character is that he's treated well enough to have value to their universe. And that doesn't happen if Sony puts him in terrible movies.

And plus, Sony is absolutely making big money off of this. They get all of the money from Homecoming. All of it. And that movie will make more because it is using MCU characters like Iron Man.
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He brings value to their movies. And one broken character won't ruin their universe.

Seems some confusion on my thoughts, it's not that I believe Spider-man will appear in Venom, it's that there's nothing stopping him from appearing.

More than likely, I think will be an origin of the Venom/symbiote and the end/stinger will probably be the symbiote attaching itself to a carrier on the way back to Earth.
 
L

Litan

Member
Boem said:
Again, if Spiderman is going to be in these spinoffs it's going to be Tom Holland. There's nothing stopping them from using him. Casting a second actor after the current one blows up in popularity wouldn't make any sense at all.
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Let’s be clear: Sony’s Marvel Universe will not be connected to the MCU in any way (sorry, Guardians of the Galaxy fans, but a Venom crossover is highly dubious) and the planned Venom and Black Cat and Silver Sable films are all part of Sony’s own shared universe, not spin-offs of any existing films
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Where are you getting the idea that Holland's Spider-Man will have anything to do with this? All it says is that Sony is building their own Universe. It doesn't even say that there will be a Spider-Man in it.

This is like when we got word that Infinity War and A4 would be standalone instead of a direct continuation from one to the other and somehow people thought that meant the Thanos storyline would wrap up in IW and a new one with a new villain would start in A4.
Boem said:
.
It's about money, not about hardcore fans being able to keep their continuity wiki's in check. Doesn't matter how much people in here don't want that to happen, saying it out loud a couple of times won't change the fact that Sony still owns the character and that they're free to use Tom Holland however they want.
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It's pretty clear that MarvelStudios themselves want to keep their continuity wikis in check. Their whole success is built on that concept and it's something the general audience also expects from them. It's not just a hardcore fan thing.
 
H

hodayathink

Member
serenewarfare said:
Homecoming really isn't their movie though. They make the money from it, but a majority of the production decisions were made by Marvel.

I really don't see a scenario in which Marvel, which was negotiating from a position of advantage, would have agreed to a deal in which they can put in work on a character and then have it fucked up by Sony's incompetent spin-offs.
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If Marvel were really negotiating from a position of advantage, do you really think the end result would have been sharing the character instead of Marvel owning him outright? While Sony was at a disadvantage in that they needed to reinvigorate Spider-Man to make sure they had a summer tentpole, Marvel's disadvantage is that post-Infinity War, they're going to need new characters to lead the MCU or the movies are going to start getting really, really, really expensive as everyone's old contracts start running out (see: RDJ making somewhere around $50 million to do Civil War, IIRC).
 
B

Boem

Member
serenewarfare said:
But they don't. If Sony goes out and makes terrible spin-off movies with Spider-Man, that damages his value to Marvel. That's the reason Sony is pretty much completely uninvolved in the creative aspects of Homecoming. Marvel cares way too much about having their movies and characters represented a certain way.
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There's a limit to how much they can do. They agreed on terms for Homecoming, Sony has complete say over the spinoffs, and Sony still owns the character. It's an industry, not a fanclub. In deals like this you agree on terms benefiting both parties, not just the one fans like the most. Sony didn't sell the character to Marvel. They still own him, and the only reason they still own him is because they plan on using him. No point in denying that really.

Again, no matter how much this may not be what the fans in here want, you simply don't always get what you want. The world isn't perfect.

Litan said:
It's pretty clear that MarvelStudios themselves want to keep their continuity wikis in check. Their whole success is built on that concept and it's something the general audience also expects from them. It's not just a hardcore fan thing.
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And Marvel Studios isn't the only party involved here. They don't just get to tell Sony what to do. They made a limited deal with them, they don't suddenly own Spiderman again.

That would be an insanely bad deal for Sony. It's just not how these things work.
 
D

darkhunger

Member
Penguin said:
He brings value to their movies. And one broken character won't ruin their universe.

Seems some confusion on my thoughts, it's not that I believe Spider-man will appear in Venom, it's that there's nothing stopping him from appearing.

More than likely, I think will be an origin of the Venom/symbiote and the end/stinger will probably be the symbiote attaching itself to a carrier on the way back to Earth.
Click to expand...

It can also be like a Suicide Squad where the movie is told from Eddie Brock's perspective and Spider-Man isn't referenced aside from brief cameos or background.

serenewarfare said:
Yeah, and in return Sony is getting a movie in Homecoming that'll probably make 50% more money than the last one did.
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And Disney will make bank on merchandising because they own 100% of that. The deal benefits both sides.
 
S

SpaceWolf

Banned
Litan said:
Where are you getting the idea that Holland's Spider-Man will have anything to do with this? All it says is that Sony is building their own Universe. It doesn't even say that there will be a Spider-Man in it.

This is like when we got word that Infinity War and A4 would be standalone instead of a direct continuation from one to the other and somehow people thought that meant the Thanos storyline would wrap up in IW and a new one with a new villain would start in A4.

It's pretty clear that MarvelStudios themselves want to keep their continuity wikis in check. Their whole success is built on that concept and it's something the general audience also expects from them. It's not just a hardcore fan thing.
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Exactly. Thank you.
 
S

serenewarfare

Banned
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku! said:
The idea that if he's in bad movies he will be damaged goods isn't necessarily true though. People still love Hugh Jackman as Wolverine even though he's been in a lot of terrible X-Men movies. Christopher Reeve was also in some truly terrible Superman movies but he's still considered to be the definitive Superman by a lot of people.
Click to expand...

It just seems strange to me that Marvel, the company that has gone so far as to fire and/or part ways with directors who didn't follow their vision, would completely and totally give up their quality control power in a deal they didn't have to make.

Make no mistake, ASM2 was a disappointment to Sony. Marvel went into these negotiations with the advantage, which is saying something considering it's Sony that owns the character.

hodayathink said:
If Marvel were really negotiating from a position of advantage, do you really think the end result would have been sharing the character instead of Marvel owning him outright? While Sony was at a disadvantage in that they needed to reinvigorate Spider-Man to make sure they had a summer tentpole, Marvel's disadvantage is that post-Infinity War, they're going to need new characters to lead the MCU or the movies are going to start getting really, really, really expensive as everyone's old contracts start running out (see: RDJ making somewhere around $50 million to do Civil War, IIRC).
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They don't necessarily need that character to be Spider-Man though.

Iron Man was nothing before they made that film. Nobody knew who he was. Now he's a billion dollar star.

I think the only reason Marvel didn't buy it outright is because Sony probably never wanted that as a possibility. They wanted someone to fix their Spider-Man films, and Marvel will do that with Homecoming.

darkhunger said:
And Disney will make bank on merchandising because they own 100% of that. The deal benefits both sides.
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That's no different from before though. Disney was always making that, whether they were making the Spider-Man movies or not.
 
Da-Kid

Da-Kid

Member
.................

If I were Disney, I would just pay a quick couple billion to get Spider-Man rights back in full.
 
B

Boem

Member
serenewarfare said:
It just seems strange to me that Marvel, the company that has gone so far as to fire and/or part ways with directors who didn't follow their vision, would completely and totally give up their quality control power in a deal they didn't have to make.
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This is something literally any movie studio does, unless you're a Spielberg or a smaller indie director working on a small movie lucking out. It doesn't speak to the dedication of Marvel Studios in any way, apart from audiences being deprived of what could have been a very special Edgar Wright movie instead of getting a fairly standard summer blockbuster.

It really is very simple: they wanted to use Spiderman in a couple of movies, and they made a deal. That deal didn't include Sony giving up the entire rights to Spiderman. No matter how much Feige may like the fans or care about the characters, he hasn't been given to go ahead to spend millions of dollars doing whatever he wants, and he doesn't get to tell Sony what to do. They work together on very specific films. Outside of that, Sony can do whatever they want. That's why it's a deal, not a sale. Generally, both parties want to benefit from a deal. Marvel Studios, no matter how much the fans dislike it or claim they would never do it because they love the fans so much, decided that these terms were good enough for them. It is what it is.
 
P

Penguin

Member
serenewarfare said:
Homecoming really isn't their movie though. They make the money from it, but a majority of the production decisions were made by Marvel.

I really don't see a scenario in which Marvel, which was negotiating from a position of advantage, would have agreed to a deal in which they can put in work on a character and then have it fucked up by Sony's incompetent spin-offs.
Click to expand...

Well Homecoming IS Sony's movie, they financed it and are doing the heavy lifting for the marketing and it is considered a Sony Pictures release. Marvel and Feige helped a great deal, but it is a Sony film.

Sony Pictures will finance and release worldwide the next installment of the $4 billion Spider-Man franchise on July 28, 2017, in a film co-produced by Kevin Feige and his expert team at Marvel and Amy Pascal, who oversaw the franchise launch for the studio 13 years ago. Together, they will collaborate on a new creative direction for the Web-Slinger.
Click to expand...

https://news.marvel.com/movies/2475...dios_find_their_spider-man_star_and_director/
 
S

serenewarfare

Banned
Penguin said:
Well Homecoming IS Sony's movie, they financed it and are doing the heavy lifting for the marketing and it is considered a Sony Pictures release. Marvel and Feige helped a great deal, but it is a Sony film.



https://news.marvel.com/movies/2475...dios_find_their_spider-man_star_and_director/
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Yes, it's a Sony film from the idea that they paid for it and are making the money. But all the creative decisions (from script to casting to production) were made by Marvel.

It's a Marvel film because Marvel made it.
 
D

darkhunger

Member
serenewarfare said:
It just seems strange to me that Marvel, the company that has gone so far as to fire and/or part ways with directors who didn't follow their vision, would completely and totally give up their quality control power in a deal they didn't have to make.
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Still don't get your point. All Marvel has to say is that "Venom is not a canon part of the MCU" and that will silent the fans and detractors. Sony can do whatever they want on their end, but Marvel has ultimate control over the MCU.


That's no different from before though. Disney was always making that, whether they were making the Spider-Man movies or not.
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A more popular movie will generate more merchandise. And quite frankly, the profitability margin of Disney's merchandising business far exceeds that of their movie business, as well as the revenue, so it WILL translate to more money for them.
 
L

Litan

Member
Boem said:
And Marvel Studios isn't the only party involved here. They don't just get to tell Sony what to do. They made a limited deal with them, they don't suddenly own Spiderman again.

That would be an insanely bad deal for Sony. It's just not how these things work.
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But having their character appear in Sony movies is a good deal for Marvel? Like someone mentioned a few posts up, Marvel had the advantage in the negotiations. Why would they agree to have a character created in the MCU, appear in a whole other Universe?

Nothing we've been told about Sony's plans so far points to anything like this. This article specifically mentions that these movies will not be a spin-off of Holland's Spider-Man or have anything to do with it.

Any suggestion on the contrary is baseless speculation unless Sony/Marvel says otherwise.
 
Grizzlyjin

Grizzlyjin

Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
Yeah. Sure. Whatever. Just keep that budget in check. Making a Spider-Man adjacent franchise that can't use Spider-Man is risky. If you go and blow $250 million on this, you're gonna be sorry.

Anything can work if it's well produced and marketed. But did anyone really enjoy the last 3 Spider-Man movies? It's just hard to expect much from this given the track record. Now we're branching off without the proper footing. This feels even more haphazard than DC's universe building off Man of Steel.

The smart move would be to just ape Deadpool hardcore and do a Superior Foes of Spider-Man movie. Make the fact that you can't use Spider-Man part of the joke. That they're not even good enough for him to waste his time on them anymore. People go to a Venom movie to see him fight Spider-Man...
 
A

Akainu

Member
All they have to do is have spider/miles appear at the end of the movie to defeat venom and then an after credit scene with miles hanging out with not!harry.
 
A

AnotherDayAnotherDollar

Banned
Seems like they are separating again, hence why I was never for Marvel to get Spiderman for a couple of movies or whatever. Get him completely or don't get him at all.

I have a feeling this movie will suck. Sony saw Fox hitting gold twice with R rated super hero movies and wants a piece of the pie.
 
T

The Artisan

Member
darkhunger said:
No. Because the MCU is a Disney IP. Sony doesn't have permission to use it beyond their collaborations with Marvel, so they cannot officially make that claim.
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Spiderman on film is still Sony's IP, and the new film is part of the MCU.

so...I don't really understand. I wasn't referring to MCU as a franchise but as the literal fictional universe. If Tom Holland is in these fuckin spinoffs why wouldn't these be part of the MCU?
 
D

darkhunger

Member
The Artisan said:
Spiderman on film is still Sony's IP, and the new film is part of the MCU.

so...I don't really understand. I wasn't referring to MCU as a franchise but as the literal fictional universe. If Tom Holland is in these fuckin spinoffs why wouldn't these be part of the MCU?
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Because Marvel can say it's not canon within the MCU. Just because a character shows up in two media doesn't mean they take place in the same universe.

Sony can call their version of the universe a "Spider-Man Universe" or whatever, but if their interpretation of this is not officially recognized by Marvel then it means jack shit for the MCU.
 
B

Boem

Member
The Artisan said:
Spiderman on film is still Sony's IP, and the new film is part of the MCU.

so...I don't really understand. I wasn't referring to MCU as a franchise but as the literal fictional universe. If Tom Holland is in these fuckin spinoffs why wouldn't these be part of the MCU?
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In your headcanon they can be. But Sony won't be able to claim that, legally, unless they'll make another deal in the future.

Just like how, legally, the Marvel TV stuff can be said to be part of the MCU, although they might as well not be given that it's looking unlikely that the movies will acknowledge them anytime soon. Different studios, both still under Disney.
 
R

RareFantasy64

Member
CuckFupertino said:
It's not that the Venom movie is going to be "edgy" and "dark," it's that Sony wants its own cinematic universe. Either they have one without a Spider-Man or they have one with a different Spider-Man than Tom Holland.

Venom is a fan favorite but NOBODY knows who Sable and Black Cat are. Didn't Sony just learn this lesson when they tried to pull this shit in TASM 2?
Click to expand...

I get it. Yeah a separate universe makes no sense
 
V

Vital Tundra

Member
On one hand, an R rated Venom is genuinely a good idea. On the other its a Sony picture and they already fucked up so hard Marvel is now making a Spiderman movie.
 
D

Discotheque

Banned
Seems like it's just trying to cash grab and jump on the hype that Fox has had with their successful r rated comic properties

Not expecting shit from this. I don't care about Feige's lack of involvement, but Rothman is arguably even worse for comic movies.

Still if they go full on disgusting body horror with the venom movie since they're shooting for R I would be down
 
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