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White Knight Chronicles Media and Information Thread
- Thread starter Kagari
- Start date
Strange, because I was just listening to a podcast with Ted Price who was discussing the PS3's SRAM. Maybe the head of Insomniac is not aware of the PS3 hardware, if so, someone should correct him.Durante said:PS3 doesn't have any SRAM
If true it would be great for image quality, which is sadly lacking in most console games these days still. But again, I'm extremely sceptical.
To be straight and not mock you, the 7 SPEs have 256kb of SRAM each.
stuburns said:
That's exactly one of the main reasons I don't have one.
I have been on Resistance (1 and 2), Motorstorm (1 and 2), Ratchet and Clank, Heavenly Sword, and many more third party games, so I don't really need to get one right now.
Only games I'm missing to play, well that I want to play are Valkyria Chronicles, Uncharted and MGS4, but I'm a RPG fan above all, that's why MSG4 didn't sell me on the PS3.
I hope they give us a PSP for xmas this year, last year was a slim PS2.
sajj316 said:
Well if true, it is indeed a waste of resources, this game could have be optimized to run at 720p, and graphics would have been much better.
There is no need at all to go 1080p when the game will look or run better at 720p
No, I'm suggesting that the local store of the SPUs has nothing at all to do with the rendering resolution of a game, which makes your original statement nonsensical and prompted my reply. What would have made sense is if you had said that it's an awful waste of GDDR3, or maybe even VRAM. I would still have disagreed but it would have made sensestuburns said:
I'd personally also not call the local store "SRAM" since it's more like a manually controlled cache, but that's besides the point. Additionally, I think I'm slightly more familiar with the CBE than you are, but again, that's besides the point.
Then he had a slipup, or you misheard him. He talked about / meant VRAM/GDDR3. In fact, Insomniac have also talked about why their later PS3 games (R&C, R2 too I think) are actually not 1280*720 but 1280*704 (with 2xAA) to get a slightly more efficient layout in the video memory (they have an extremely small black border on top and bottom of the screen).stuburns said:
But again, all of that is beside the point. (That being that WKS rendering in 1920x1080 is extremely unlikely, but would be impressive and awesome for those of us that value image quality)
Code:
[b]CPU[/b]: Cell Processor
PowerPC-base Core @3.2GHz
1 VMX vector unit per core
512KB L2 cache
7 x SPE @3.2GHz
7 x 128b 128 SIMD GPRs
7 x 256KB SRAM for SPE
* 1 of 8 SPEs reserved for redundancy total floating point performance: 218 GFLOPS
[b]GPU[/b]: RSX @550MHz
1.8 TFLOPS floating point performance
Full HD (up to 1080p) x 2 channels
Multi-way programmable parallel floating point shader pipelines
[B]Sound[/B]: Dolby 5.1ch, DTS, LPCM, etc. (Cell-base processing)
[B]Memory[/B]:
256MB XDR Main RAM @3.2GHz
256MB GDDR3 VRAM @700MHz
[B]System Bandwidth[/B]:
Main RAM: 25.6GB/s
VRAM: 22.4GB/s
RSX: 20GB/s (write) + 15GB/s (read)
SB: 2.5GB/s (write) + 2.5GB/s (read)7 x 256KB SRAM for SPE ?
He defiantly said SRAM, but it could have been a slip of the tongue. I still don't understand why you don't consider Cells 1T SRAM to be not SRAM, but as you said, it's not really the point.Durante said:
The point is 1080p uses resources that could be used elsewhere to make the game not look like a ass, if resources are the issue at all.
Paracelsus
Member
stuburns said:
Maybe you forgot graphics are the LAST issue into a Jrpg. Maybe.
If plot, gameplay, sound and characters suck you can quietly wipe your ass with your bump-mapped textures.
Yes, physically there is SRAM in the Cell, what I said was wrong without context. It's because I was thinking specifically of RSX as we were talking about rendering. No one stores their framebuffer in the SPEs SRAM for general rendering. Besides being simply in the wrong place, it's 256k. Or 1792k if you want to count all of them and don't run any code on your SPEs 
p). A 720p framebuffer with no AA (and no stencil) takes around 6.5 MB. A 1080p framebuffer would take nearly 15MB. I think you can see the problem.
I hope we can go back to other topics now, WKS won't be 1080p native anyway :lol
p). A 720p framebuffer with no AA (and no stencil) takes around 6.5 MB. A 1080p framebuffer would take nearly 15MB. I think you can see the problem.I hope we can go back to other topics now, WKS won't be 1080p native anyway :lol
Durante said:Yes, physically there is SRAM in the Cell, what I said was wrong without context. It's because I was thinking specifically of RSX as we were talking about rendering. No one stores their framebuffer in the SPEs SRAM for general rendering. Besides being simply in the wrong place, it's 256k. Or 1792k if you want to count all of them and don't run any code on your SPEs
I hope we can go back to other topics now, WKS won't be 1080p native anyway :lol
Yeah, you're probably right. I don't think it will be 1920x1080, it will most likely be 960x1080. Still better than 720p though.
Are they really the LAST issue? I don't really care if the game looks better than it currently does. But it does look like shit. JRPGs have historically been the games that pushed visuals to new levels. And for WKC to look as utterly underwhelming and 'last-gen' as it does is disappointing to me. But it's not the most important thing at all, I am going to buy it, I might really enjoy it. But I'm not going to pretend it looking like crap is a good thing.Paracelsus said:
I've never cared about graphics in an RPG, primarily because my first RPGs were in monochrome. As long as the graphics serve their purpose, I'm cool. Now, SE has a lot of cutscene-type stuff that pushes the hardware, but historically speaking RPGs don't always push the limits graphics-wise.
Philanthropist
Banned
It's one of the standard upscaled modes of PS3 games as it can do horizontal scaling, and it's still progressive.
http://www.gamersyde.com/news_7315_en.htmljiggle said:looks good
anyone have links to the downloadable movies from the site (instead of streaming)?
I want them on my computer too.
Pre-rendered CG is nice.... but that doesn't really count for anything.
They actually made main character even more kiddy than ever... yuck
I hope the goal of getting the 'native 1080p support' stamp isn't causing any degrade...
And game will be 100% better if the old guy is the protagonist instead.
They actually made main character even more kiddy than ever... yuck
I hope the goal of getting the 'native 1080p support' stamp isn't causing any degrade...
And game will be 100% better if the old guy is the protagonist instead.
wangman31888
Banned
WYWY said:
i agree i'm getting sick of RPGs with a kiddy style, when are japanese devs gonna make a mature rated RPG? SMT is the only developer that is consistently making mature titles. although maybe last remnant will bring S-E over
Cellbomber
Member
The trailers and videos for this game have been extremely good. I think the graphics look fine. I'm not sure how some people think they are ugly/horrible. It will be a definite purchase for me.
Too many. That's the problem.-Kh- said:
Used to like them, but my tolerance broke.
Here's my hypothesis:Syntek said:
I think it's also the Japanese market. I mean JP game consoles have been around for a long time. The Japanese who started playing back then are all pretty matured now, and there should be a large number of them. And I believe a large number of them are still open to RPG gaming.
And here's the irony - hypothetically there is this large group of older Japanese gamers, with purchasing power to buy your 600USD console at launch, and you're still ignoring them. There are so few JPRGs that doesn't try to patronize the player as if the player is a teenager.
WYWY said:
So you are saying that for a RPG to be mature, it needs 30 year old characters?
Are we going to need 40 yo ones in 10 years time? And further on, 50% of the games, mostly current franchises are going to have old Snake type of characters?
I can see it, old Master Chief, old Chris Redfield, old Samus Aran, old Link, old Mario.
SE won't make remakes at the time but sequels to all the FF games, you know FFVI-2, FFVII-2, FFX-3, etc. Where Cecil, Cloud, Tidus and co are around their 50s right?
Yea I totally agree with you that such is the future of gaming, I mean, totally. Yea.
WYWY said:
I don't know about that...just because they've aged doesn't mean they will suddenly toss aside their obsession with youth and embrace the awesomeness of western gaming leads averaging over 30 years in age, otherwise referred to collectively as "middle-aged geezers" by Japanese standards.
I'm doubtful there is any of that "I wanna grow up just as badass as _insert your favorite lead from FPS_" syndrome that is probably prevalent among American kids.
Youth sells in Japan, arguably even more so among the your so called "mature" group.
Now there, we're not entirely in sync here.Syntek said:
And no, that quoted example isn't mature. In fact I find it more childish than the JRPG 'kiddies'. Certainly there are more character types than this! Uru from SH2? Chris and Geddoe from Suikoden 3? Even Basch and Balthier from FF12 - though they aren't presented as the protagonist...
The root problem I think, is that most of the time, young protagonists come with a mountain of patronizing and teenage angst. World hero, defeat 1,000 year old enemy, save princess - there's a way to do this without being overly patronizing. The DQ series for example, does it pretty well - maybe because it doesn't try very hard with the melodrama, just simple, dumb, fun.
But this is just one of those usual jrpg complaints that creep up here thrice a year.
I don't think maturity requires older characters, but I think it probably helps. It's really just the art direction that denotes the audience to me.-Kh- said:
And I do find WKC to look a tad immature. If you think of something like VersusXIII, which is this gloomy, mature, real-world RPG. I see that directly aimed at those people who were 14 playing FF7, and are now older and looking for something a little more mature. Where as FFXIII looks to appeal to the same young teenagers all Kitase's FFs do. WKC is defiantly in the that second pack I think.
Sword Familiar
178% of NeoGAF posters don't understand statistics
About old vs young main characters in JRPGs:
Whenever I see an older character that isn't an NPC in a JRPG these days I feel like it's a fresh breath of air. Why? Because there are so few of them!
The frequent use of teenage heroes is understandable, taking the target audience into concideration. Sure, one might argue that most fans of the "classic" JRPGs have grown up and are now young adults rather than teenagers, but that doesn't mean that the game developers will make games targeting this particular demographic. On the contrary, since most companies' main objective is to expand, the target demographic stays the same as it did 10 years ago, a teenage male.
IMO, there are at least three practical reasons as to why this is true;
All three of these reasons have exceptions, but I'm pretty sure this is how the market works in general.
Now, as I said earlier, this is understandable. In the end, the producers could care less about what fans want when faced with the company's' main interests. So I think it IS understandable, but it is also equally sad because it hurts the game's credibility storywise, at least IMHO.
Take the adventurer/warrior, for instance. A very frequent example of a main character in JRPGs.
Having older characters adds depth to the game since they usually have many years of combat experince, making it more credible for them to to be warriors, whilst a teenager who goes from being a complete novice to a fighting vet. in a couple of weeks/months time isn't very credible.
In retrospect most games don't even seem to put that great an emphasis on the passing of time, thus making the time main characters have actually spent from beginning to end very vague. The fact that most characters don't age only helps make matters worse.
Some games, like Breath of Fire 3, have this worked out, where the main character starts out as an inexperienced kid who is forced to fight due to the circumstances at hand (and he actually fights poorly, but gets steadier after a while), and grows up to be a proud, semi-experienced warrior. Other games show brief cinematics portraying the main character in training before major cut-scenes, which lifts the storyline up a bit, but most games don't even bother.
Of course, I do realize that, since most RPGs heavily rely on statistics, HP/MP, damage, STR, INT etc., one should view a character's related progress as symbolic, rather than realistic. You'll just have to imagine that the time spent going from lv.1 to lv.99 took a lot of time and hard work and that this is a measure of ones OWN progress rather than the progress related to another party member. Thus a 30 year old lv.25 warrior and a 17 year old equivalent are NOT equally experienced in actual knowledge, but they ARE on an equal level in their respective personal progress ladders. Lv.1 = one's personal low and lv.max = one's personal best in this point of his/her life (= the game's own "life cycle"). Still, it wouldn't hurt to put some effort into at least hinting the player that more time than what was spent at the inn has past since the last time he/she picked up the controller.
Back on topic, I'm pretty sure that having more mature players will attract a more serious audience because it's easier to relate to them. The problem therefore lies in the audience, or rather, the vision that most companies seem to have of their audiences, which mostly comprises about people who either are not mature enough to relate to adult problems or are too mature to play their games in the first place!
Arguably, if the main characters of a JRPG were all mature, had purely adult problems and were all experienced warriors, the game wouldn't attract as many players, thus making the game less profitable. Harsh reality or simply bogus? I couldn't say, but since I see myself as one the "young adults" I mentioned earlier, I can only judge from my perspective, and I AM in fact finding it harder to relate to the main characters of today's RPGs, thus wouldn't mind an RPG party where the minimum age would be 25 years old.
Nevertheless, I will keep buying the games, whether they have young, old, dead or undead characters in them simply because I love RPGs in egneral, and JRPGs in partiular, and am hoping that I will be positively surprised.
Whenever I see an older character that isn't an NPC in a JRPG these days I feel like it's a fresh breath of air. Why? Because there are so few of them!
The frequent use of teenage heroes is understandable, taking the target audience into concideration. Sure, one might argue that most fans of the "classic" JRPGs have grown up and are now young adults rather than teenagers, but that doesn't mean that the game developers will make games targeting this particular demographic. On the contrary, since most companies' main objective is to expand, the target demographic stays the same as it did 10 years ago, a teenage male.
IMO, there are at least three practical reasons as to why this is true;
- 1. Targeting teenagers will attract new consumers. Todays' teenagers may or may not have been playing games for ages, but since most kids lack the necessary "economic power" (pardon my English), they aren't really consumers themselves.
- 2. The "young adult" male demographic of fans that are still buying games frequently, the very demographic that made the companies what they are today, will probably buy the games whether they are targeted or not, thus needs little to no targeting at all.
- 3. Most "older" gamers have less time and are thus less likely to frequently play games, and ultimately buy fewer games. All the more reason for developers to phase this demographic out rather than target it. It would just be a waste of marketing money to go after them since "life" will stop them from consuming their product anyway.
All three of these reasons have exceptions, but I'm pretty sure this is how the market works in general.
Now, as I said earlier, this is understandable. In the end, the producers could care less about what fans want when faced with the company's' main interests. So I think it IS understandable, but it is also equally sad because it hurts the game's credibility storywise, at least IMHO.
Take the adventurer/warrior, for instance. A very frequent example of a main character in JRPGs.
Having older characters adds depth to the game since they usually have many years of combat experince, making it more credible for them to to be warriors, whilst a teenager who goes from being a complete novice to a fighting vet. in a couple of weeks/months time isn't very credible.
In retrospect most games don't even seem to put that great an emphasis on the passing of time, thus making the time main characters have actually spent from beginning to end very vague. The fact that most characters don't age only helps make matters worse.
Some games, like Breath of Fire 3, have this worked out, where the main character starts out as an inexperienced kid who is forced to fight due to the circumstances at hand (and he actually fights poorly, but gets steadier after a while), and grows up to be a proud, semi-experienced warrior. Other games show brief cinematics portraying the main character in training before major cut-scenes, which lifts the storyline up a bit, but most games don't even bother.
Of course, I do realize that, since most RPGs heavily rely on statistics, HP/MP, damage, STR, INT etc., one should view a character's related progress as symbolic, rather than realistic. You'll just have to imagine that the time spent going from lv.1 to lv.99 took a lot of time and hard work and that this is a measure of ones OWN progress rather than the progress related to another party member. Thus a 30 year old lv.25 warrior and a 17 year old equivalent are NOT equally experienced in actual knowledge, but they ARE on an equal level in their respective personal progress ladders. Lv.1 = one's personal low and lv.max = one's personal best in this point of his/her life (= the game's own "life cycle"). Still, it wouldn't hurt to put some effort into at least hinting the player that more time than what was spent at the inn has past since the last time he/she picked up the controller.
Back on topic, I'm pretty sure that having more mature players will attract a more serious audience because it's easier to relate to them. The problem therefore lies in the audience, or rather, the vision that most companies seem to have of their audiences, which mostly comprises about people who either are not mature enough to relate to adult problems or are too mature to play their games in the first place!
Arguably, if the main characters of a JRPG were all mature, had purely adult problems and were all experienced warriors, the game wouldn't attract as many players, thus making the game less profitable. Harsh reality or simply bogus? I couldn't say, but since I see myself as one the "young adults" I mentioned earlier, I can only judge from my perspective, and I AM in fact finding it harder to relate to the main characters of today's RPGs, thus wouldn't mind an RPG party where the minimum age would be 25 years old.
Nevertheless, I will keep buying the games, whether they have young, old, dead or undead characters in them simply because I love RPGs in egneral, and JRPGs in partiular, and am hoping that I will be positively surprised.
