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[BurnCoalMeltPole]

Good post, but have a couple notes.
UE5 effectively dynamically scales the rendered image based on where it is, using top-quality assets. A far away statue gets gradually better as you approach it, eliminating the need for pop-in.
You don't have steps of detail (as with LODs), but a scale of detail as you move farther or closer.
This is however computationally expensive, and games will render at lower than 4K; the higher pixel count and improvements however means that the image is up-scaled losslessly to 4K, well enough to trick DF!
The UE5 demo would push Lockhart sub-1080p, meaning that devs would have to work on bespoke assets for it, essentially working on the game twice and losing out on a lot of UE5 improvements.

There will be tradeoffs for sure, and scaling between platforms probably won’t be free either.

I don't buy the binned chip theory. That works for the 5700 and 5700XT, but those are comparable chips (36 vs 40 cus at a higher clock). The Lockhart is much weaker than the XSX.
Admittedly we don't know it's CU count, but would taking likely 56 CU binned chip be cheaper than not using lower CU chips to begin with? Especially as bigger APUs are exponentially pricier? Would it even fit if the APU is much smaller? Are yelds that poor to support a whole new sku by itself?

Those binned chips would just end up in the trash otherwise, so they would be just a byproduct of XSX production under this hypothetical scenario. Of course, I have no idea what their yields are, but larger chips will tend to have more defects. Some of this can be compensated for with redundant circuitry (hence some CUs being disabled by default).

I sure hope good games are coming, but I feel having to support 5 skus and PC might be stretching their studios too thin.
That and no XSX exclusives with is just disappointing.

The abstraction layer provided by their SDKs make it possible to support all of those SKUs, but of course, ‘lowest common denominator’ applies to design. Still, others have pointed out that some 3rd parties will be making exclusive games, though they will probably be required to also support Lockhart (not doing so would really complicate things).

 

[Tulipanzo]

Those binned chips would just end up in the trash otherwise, so they would be just a byproduct of XSX production under this hypothetical scenario. Of course, I have no idea what their yields are, but larger chips will tend to have more defects. Some of this can be compensated for with redundant circuitry (hence some CUs being disabled by default).

Yeah, but let's say the Lockhart is 36CUs.
Wouldn't it be cheaper to start at 40 and disable 4, than to use a 56 cu card and disable 20 if it's not up to par?
It's doable, but I'm not convinced they can get enough chips at a good price this way.

The abstraction layer provided by their SDKs make it possible to support all of those SKUs, but of course, ‘lowest common denominator’ applies to design. Still, others have pointed out that some 3rd parties will be making exclusive games, though they will probably be required to also support Lockhart (not doing so would really complicate things).

Yeah, but already we've seen X1 games running rather poorly recently, so while it's "simpler" it's by no means simple.
Usually big cross-gen titles need whole studios just for the last-gen version to run (and it's still bad usually!), so MS might have trouble there.
I feel we'll get many situations like that Halo: Infinite trailer, where it looks pretty, but not strikingly next-gen.

 

[BurnCoalMeltPole]

Yeah, but let's say the Lockhart is 36CUs.
Wouldn't it be cheaper to start at 40 and disable 4, than to use a 56 cu card and disable 20 if it's not up to par?
It's doable, but I'm not convinced they can get enough chips at a good price this way.

No, that would cost a lot more money. Those binned chips are basically free, because if they are not used (too many defects for XSX), they just get thrown away. Now, if they cannot sell all of the XSX chips, then it gets expensive, and so it makes sense to have a dedicated wafer for Lockhart with smaller chips. Anyway, that is how it would work in theory.

Yeah, but already we've seen X1 games running rather poorly recently, so while it's "simpler" it's by no means simple.
Usually big cross-gen titles need whole studios just for the last-gen version to run (and it's still bad usually!), so MS might have trouble there.
I feel we'll get many situations like that Halo: Infinite trailer, where it looks pretty, but not strikingly next-gen.

At some point it just becomes too costly to support newer software on older platforms. Anyway, this is one of the tradeoffs involved in MS’s strategy, but they are clearly going to move forward. How much of the market will be content to move at their pace remains to be seen.

 

[DaGwaphics]

900p scaled to 1080p via UE5's temporal upscaling. Could still look pretty good.

Agreed. It's kind of absurd to go from 1440, but you can't tell it's not 4k, to 900p couldn't look like 1080p. LOL

 

[EDMIX]

I'm really hoping this rumor is either fake or MS doesn't go thru with it. If this thing is real, never mind XONE nerfing Series X for 2 years, this system will nerf them the WHOLE GENERATION! Making games from this upward I think is a bad idea.

Make those games 100% using Series X as a base!!!!

 

[Dontero]

First party Xbox games go to PC anyway so they already know how to handle minimum requirements. Also thanks to Smart Delivery they can now exactly load in 2 types of assets. Prebaked lighting and without... It just takes a bit more development time.

It doesn't matter that MS has PC platform. IF game doesn't run at least 24-30fps on 4TF they will not release such game. Even PC games have minimum spec developers work around. Which means if technology they want to use causes 4TF version run below that they will not use it. Period.

Smart Delivery doesn't exist. You mean Smart Shift. Which has nothing to do with assets but power management which is needless feature in console.

Time = Money. No one in their right mind will make 2 assets. This is not 99. Every game comes with one kind of assets because no one is willing to pay double of their development budget.

If 4TF xbox is true then you can completely forget about raytracing on xbox, GI as standard and many other things. That is the price if you have such low baseline.

I wouldn't be surprised if developers completely skip Xbox console or treat it with XboxOne/PS4 version of games for 1-2 years before killing completely support for it like for WiiU after a while.

The only way i can see it working is if MS will not require all games to run on 4TF xbox.

 

[Barakov]

I'm really hoping this rumor is either fake or MS doesn't go thru with it. If this thing is real, never mind XONE nerfing Series X for 2 years, this system will nerf them the WHOLE GENERATION! Making games from this upward I think is a bad idea.

Make those games 100% using Series X as a base!!!!

My man. I appreciate what they're going for but I think for a new system I think they need to give us the new hotness right out of the gate. I think anybody still playing on exclusively on Xbox One want to drop that thing as soon as possible.

 

[DavidGzz]

My boss isn't getting me a 4k monitor so I'll get one to keep in my locker at work. That way I don't have to pack my BBC and bring it to work ery night.

 

[Shin]

 

[Tulipanzo]

No, that would cost a lot more money. Those binned chips are basically free, because if they are not used (too many defects for XSX), they just get thrown away. Now, if they cannot sell all of the XSX chips, then it gets expensive, and so it makes sense to have a dedicated wafer for Lockhart with smaller chips. Anyway, that is how it would work in theory.

What I'm wondering if its possible to use either a binned XSX or a bespoke chip in the same APU without majorly reworking your pipeline.
Obviously it'd be cheaper to use binned only, but if you can't make enough Lockhart chips you're still in trouble.

For example, 80% yields means only 1 Lockhart chip for every 4 XSX, which saves you money only if you don't plan to make any more than that.

At some point it just becomes too costly to support newer software on older platforms. Anyway, this is one of the tradeoffs involved in MS’s strategy, but they are clearly going to move forward. How much of the market will be content to move at their pace remains to be seen.

Yes, it remains to be seem.
It's the first console in history to not develop any launch year exclusives, so it is a complete unknown.
Given how successful the Switch and PS4's approach has proven, I really don't think this is the right decision.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

It doesn't matter that MS has PC platform. IF game doesn't run at least 24-30fps on 4TF they will not release such game. Even PC games have minimum spec developers work around. Which means if technology they want to use causes 4TF version run below that they will not use it. Period.

Smart Delivery doesn't exist. You mean Smart Shift. Which has nothing to do with assets but power management which is needless feature in console.

Time = Money. No one in their right mind will make 2 assets. This is not 99. Every game comes with one kind of assets because no one is willing to pay double of their development budget.

If 4TF xbox is true then you can completely forget about raytracing on xbox, GI as standard and many other things. That is the price if you have such low baseline.

I wouldn't be surprised if developers completely skip Xbox console or treat it with XboxOne/PS4 version of games for 1-2 years before killing completely support for it like for WiiU after a while.

The only way i can see it working is if MS will not require all games to run on 4TF xbox.

I agree, but the rumoured specs of Lockhart are much better than a low-end PC. They expect it to have the same SSD and CPU as the XSX, that combined with a 4TF RDNA2 GPU, which is basically a 9TF GCN GPU (50% performance increase from GCN => RDNA1 and again from RDNA1 => RDNA2) should be more than enough.

Smart Delivery DOES exist. It's a "feature" of Xbox where they know which assets and code to install on your system depending on which system you are using. So for example prebaked lighting assets on Lockhart, and Raytracing solution on the XSX.

Like we said before, let's wait for the games before jumping to conclusions. I'm more than happy to tell you I was wrong once we see no XSX games using raytracing, and the Lockhart actually exists.

 

[Tulipanzo]

I agree, but the rumoured specs of Lockhart are much better than a low-end PC. They expect it to have the same SSD and CPU as the XSX, that combined with a 4TF RDNA2 GPU, which is basically a 9TF GCN GPU (50% performance increase from GCN => RDNA1 and again from RDNA1 => RDNA2) should be more than enough.

Smart Delivery DOES exist. It's a "feature" of Xbox where they know which assets and code to install on your system depending on which system you are using. So for example prebaked lighting assets on Lockhart, and Raytracing solution on the XSX.

Like we said before, let's wait for the games before jumping to conclusions. I'm more than happy to tell you I was wrong once we see no XSX games using raytracing, and the Lockhart actually exists.

You're mixing up the perfomance per clock and performance per watt (which don't relate 1:1), and only taking into account GCN 1.0 TF, while the X1X was on the more advanced Polaris.
Furthermore, "significantly less RAM" and a worse CPU have already been reported. Hopefully it has an SSD, as more recent Windows Central says it "presumably" has one.
While no SSD would kill it, worse RAM and CPU will ultimately affect development for both it and XSX if they are to run the same games.

Smart Delivery (cross-buy) helps fuck all if a dev has to work on two independent solutions for lighting, which would more than double the workload. Same as if virtualized geometry can only work on one, everything doubles so your game can look worse.
"Say goodbye to baking lighting" promised UE5, unless you're on Lockhart I guess.
Your example would also prevent any use of dynamic lighting on XSX, as it's not compatible with your baked lighting on the Lockhart.

We can wait, but we've already seen plenty of games on MS's side. Plus, people will obviously form opinions on your baby-tier box if you refuse to release info about it.

 

[Self]

Given how successful the Switch and PS4's approach has proven, I really don't think this is the right decision.

For consumers it certainly is.

If MS is really going the 'family way' then no one will be left behind.
It most certainly would hinder technical improvements in general, but if MS is right about that approach they will have a clear advantage over PS and maybe even Nintendo.
The price.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

For consumers it certainly is.

If MS is really going the 'family way' then no one will be left behind.
It most certainly would hinder technical improvements in general, but if MS is right about that approach they will have a clear advantage over PS and maybe even Nintendo.
The price.

For consumers?
I am assuming you are skipping all the potential customers of the Series X? Do they not count as consumers? Because Series X purchasers would certainly be negatively affected.

 

[Self]

For consumers?
I am assuming you are skipping all the potential customers of the Series X? Do they not count as consumers? Because Series X purchasers would certainly be negatively affected.

You have a point here.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

You're mixing up the perfomance per clock and performance per watt (which don't relate 1:1), and only taking into account GCN 1.0 TF, while the X1X was on the more advanced Polaris.
Furthermore, "significantly less RAM" and a worse CPU have already been reported. Hopefully it has an SSD, as more recent Windows Central says it "presumably" has one.
While no SSD would kill it, worse RAM and CPU will ultimately affect development for both it and XSX if they are to run the same games.

Smart Delivery (cross-buy) helps fuck all if a dev has to work on two independent solutions for lighting, which would more than double the workload. Same as if virtualized geometry can only work on one, everything doubles so your game can look worse.
"Say goodbye to baking lighting" promised UE5, unless you're on Lockhart I guess.
Your example would also prevent any use of dynamic lighting on XSX, as it's not compatible with your baked lighting on the Lockhart.

We can wait, but we've already seen plenty of games on MS's side. Plus, people will obviously form opinions on your baby-tier box if you refuse to release info about it.

Well you don't need as much RAM as you would use for 4K, so that's not necessarily a bad thing. CPU on the other hand can't be much much lower, it should be close to the one in the XSX.

Smart Delivery is not just cross-buy, it get the right assets for your console. Cross-buy is just downloading the whole game made for whatever system you are on. There's a difference, even more so when it comes to save games. I once explained it here.

We barely have seen any games from Microsoft's first party. And when I say see games I mean gameplay video's.

 

[BurnCoalMeltPole]

What I'm wondering if its possible to use either a binned XSX or a bespoke chip in the same APU without majorly reworking your pipeline.
Obviously it'd be cheaper to use binned only, but if you can't make enough Lockhart chips you're still in trouble.

For example, 80% yields means only 1 Lockhart chip for every 4 XSX, which saves you money only if you don't plan to make any more than that.

I am not sure if I fully understand your point. Are you asking whether a smaller dedicated Lockhart chip could work as a drop in replacement for the binned XSX if they want to expand production of Lockhart? Chip packaging acts as the interface to the rest of the system on the PCB, so presumably yes? But that is just a guess, and I am only trying to make sense of what others have suggested. Regardless, I am agnostic on the matter, especially as I have no idea what MS is really doing. It seems equally possible, perhaps more likely, that they are using separate dedicated wafers for production at the outset.

Yes, it remains to be seem.
It's the first console in history to not develop any launch year exclusives, so it is a complete unknown.
Given how successful the Switch and PS4's approach has proven, I really don't think this is the right decision.

It was my impression that there might be exclusives like Scorn from 3rd parties? I guess first party exclusives will arrive much later.

MS’s strategy is to go after subscriptions for GamePass, believing they are building the Netflix equivalent for games. If it turns out that consumer demand for this kind of service is far less than they are forecasting/hoping, and/or the software is not compelling, console sales could stagnate. But it looks like they already have over a billion in revenue from this service, so at least their current customers seem to like it? They certainly have a lot to prove with first-party software. One Xbox fan put it like this: while everyone expects Sony’s games to be great, there is surprise when the Xbox games are. Lockhart lacks an optical disc drive, will this deter customers? Will Lockhart’s existence diminish desire for the XSX?

Sony looks to be following the traditional pathway, trying to replicate the success of the PS4. If the price is right, and the software delivers, there is little reason to believe that they will not be successful. A high price, production problems, and/or lackluster software could allow Xbox to gain traction. Software-wise Sony has a stellar track record. The hardware looks to be revolutionary and computer architect Mark Cerny’s magnum opus, and that could drive insane demand, something not easily undermined by lower priced alternatives with lackluster software.

At the moment, the interest in PS5 vs Xbox looks to be about 2:1; representative of current market share. Will the big reveals this summer change this outlook? The PS5 will surely sell all of its stock well into next year. Will consumers be patient and wait for supply to catch up, or will they flock to the competition?

So many questions....

 

[FireFly]

DLSS 2.0 in that DF video is working on a card significantly more powerful than Lockhart, and XBox and AMD's solution "will be relying on the raw throughput of the GPU". Here's hoping we can reconstruct to 1080p! Next-gen baby

900p in 2020 is sure to go down a treat.

Right but 540p is a third of the pixels of 900p. I also wonder if the improvements Microsoft made in integer performance for machine learning, were intended to enable A.I upscaling.

Time = Money. No one in their right mind will make 2 assets. This is not 99. Every game comes with one kind of assets because no one is willing to pay double of their development budget.

The whole idea of Lockhart is to enable developers to use the same assets at lower resolutions.

 

[Tulipanzo]

For consumers it certainly is.

If MS is really going the 'family way' then no one will be left behind.
It most certainly would hinder technical improvements in general, but if MS is right about that approach they will have a clear advantage over PS and maybe even Nintendo.
The price.

The false assumption here is "you either make only exclusives or only cross-gen titles".
I agree, keeping support for X1 going is pro-consumer for X1 owners, but refusing to develop exclusives is bad for XSX adopters.
The way it could work, is to treat X1 and XSX as two different platforms, think 3DS and WiiU.
Release some titles on X1, playable on XSX via Bc, and some XSX exclusives.

The reason they won't do it is that it's too expensive, similarly to how both Sony and Nintendo couldn't sustain a home console and a portable at the same time.

The approach they are going with is plain bad, as developers are overstretched and limited by 7 years old hardware, while costumers have little reason to upgrade. As with the H:I trailer, games might just look less impressive to people.
Since third parties cross-gen exist, the console that needs the most focus IS your newer one, not the older one.
Sony and Nintendo shine here, as they release quality titles consistently, while MS seemingly had gap years (2017) and very inconsistent quality (Crackdown 3, Bleeding Edge).

This ultimately affects how much people care about your output: Bledding Edge, the first major exclusives from their acquired studios, launched with no hype, and currently has fewer players than Garfield Kart.

 

[Tulipanzo]

Well you don't need as much RAM as you would use for 4K, so that's not necessarily a bad thing. CPU on the other hand can't be much much lower, it should be close to the one in the XSX.

Less RAM is needed, but "significantly less" is still bad, and you have to now account for two different RAM budgets on two different consoles, which is again extra work.
The CPU is frankly your guess, and I very well hope it's not much worse, because it would affect development even with minor deltas. It is however being reported as worse.

Smart Delivery is not just cross-buy, it get the right assets for your console. Cross-buy is just downloading the whole game made for whatever system you are on. There's a difference, even more so when it comes to save games. I once explained it here.

It is quite literally the same thing, since which assets you change is a developer decision on both systems.
You also don't know that saves are shared on cross-buy, and in your post notably bring up a game that is not cross-buy as an example.

We barely have seen any games from Microsoft's first party. And when I say see games I mean gameplay video's.

We've already seen H:I and HB2 as XSX titles. We had a whole Inside XBox just about gameplay supposedly from third parties.

Still, according to you, that shouldn't matter. Since developing on X1 won't affect XSX games, Gears 5, SoD2, and other enhanced titles should provide a good reference as well.
It seems very defensive to claim no XBox footage is relevant when marketing started back at E3 2018.
While we'll see more in July, seeing XBox's biggest title running is obviously a good reference against Sony's event, at least in terms of visual quality.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

Less RAM is needed, but "significantly less" is still bad, and you have to now account for two different RAM budgets on two different consoles, which is again extra work.
The CPU is frankly your guess, and I very well hope it's not much worse, because it would affect development even with minor deltas. It is however being reported as worse.

You don't have to account for that RAM budget, because that scales together with your assets... So lower quality assets, lower RAM needed.

It is quite literally the same thing, since which assets you change is a developer decision on both systems.
You also don't know that saves are shared on cross-buy, and in your post notably bring up a game that is not cross-buy as an example.

Again, it's not the same. First of all save games are NOT shared using cross-buy. Tell me 1 game that shares save games using cross-buy? Secondly cross-buy is just downloading separate games, while smart delivery only installs the right assets.

We've already seen H:I and HB2 as XSX titles. We had a whole Inside XBox just about gameplay supposedly from third parties.

Still, according to you, that shouldn't matter. Since developing on X1 won't affect XSX games, Gears 5, SoD2, and other enhanced titles should provide a good reference as well.
It seems very defensive to claim no XBox footage is relevant when marketing started back at E3 2018.
While we'll see more in July, seeing XBox's biggest title running is obviously a good reference against Sony's event, at least in terms of visual quality.

Like I said. Halo and HB2 wasn't even gameplay, and I specifically said that I wanted to compare gameplay from 1st party games, not 3rd party. So yeah, I believe that in the first year we won't notice an influence from Xbox One on game development for XSX, and for the whole gen we don't notice an influence from Lockhart.

 

[TBiddy]

It is quite literally the same thing, since which assets you change is a developer decision on both systems.
You also don't know that saves are shared on cross-buy, and in your post notably bring up a game that is not cross-buy as an example.

It is confirmed that save games are transferrable back and forth when using smart delivery.

 

[John254]

Worst nightmares for some people will become reality



Two XDK consoles are certified in South Korea.

 

[Dontero]

The whole idea of Lockhart is to enable developers to use the same assets at lower resolutions.

You can't use same assets at 4TF even with lower resolution if you make assets to work on 10-12TF console. Unless they magically are capable of producing 4TF GPU that has exactly the same amount of shader units, texture units, rops and so on as its 12TF brother.

The only way to do that is to make assets at 4TF limit and then for 12TF console use those assets and scale up resolution and framerate maybe add some extra effects.

Good example of this is Witcher 3. On my old HD7970 if i would change resolution from 900p to 720p it would only give me around 10% FPS improvement but if i would increase resolution from 900p to 1080p my framerate would go down by 30-40%.

So yes you are looking at 4TF next generation with some effects and resolution scaled up to 10-12TF much like you can make shadows nicer in some PC games and crush your best GPU and won't look that much better than shadows on medium.

Shame, i though GI would become standard.

 

[Tulipanzo]

It is confirmed that save games are transferrable back and forth when using smart delivery.

I know, as with cross-buy, which is the same thing as Smart Delivery.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

You can't use same assets at 4TF even with lower resolution if you make assets to work on 10-12TF console. Unless they magically are capable of producing 4TF GPU that has exactly the same amount of shader units, texture units, rops and so on as its 12TF brother.

The only way to do that is to make assets at 4TF limit and then for 12TF console use those assets and scale up resolution and framerate maybe add some extra effects.

Good example of this is Witcher 3. On my old HD7970 if i would change resolution from 900p to 720p it would only give me around 10% FPS improvement but if i would increase resolution from 900p to 1080p my framerate would go down by 30-40%.

So yes you are looking at 4TF next generation with some effects and resolution scaled up to 10-12TF much like you can make shadows nicer in some PC games and crush your best GPU and won't look that much better than shadows on medium.

Shame, i though GI would become standard.

I always wondered why so many people in game forums buy into the "scale down from Series X" propaganda. That was never how it worked. In fact it is so unbelievable, that I could only assume those who say so did so with the intent to deceive. That was why I never really argued against such people; I assume they were lying to begin with.

Months and months ago, when the rumor of Lockhart surfaced, I outright dismissed it as ridiculous. I see it as a disastrous decision to launch with two tiers, and assumed that Xbox division is not suicidal enough to make that call.

Over the months that have since passed, I now believe Xbox Division is truly foolish enough to do the deed.
And now I just watch the Xbox next gen news, with the mentality of watching a slow motion train crash.

Xbox hardware is doomed, by their own actions. I am just here for the fireworks, since I am a late adopter and isn't going to buy a machine for a long while yet.

 

[TBiddy]

I know, as with cross-buy, which is the same thing as Smart Delivery.

Is that a general feature or on a game to game basis, when we're talking Playstation?

 

[sinnergy]

You can't use same assets at 4TF even with lower resolution if you make assets to work on 10-12TF console. Unless they magically are capable of producing 4TF GPU that has exactly the same amount of shader units, texture units, rops and so on as its 12TF brother.

The only way to do that is to make assets at 4TF limit and then for 12TF console use those assets and scale up resolution and framerate maybe add some extra effects.

Good example of this is Witcher 3. On my old HD7970 if i would change resolution from 900p to 720p it would only give me around 10% FPS improvement but if i would increase resolution from 900p to 1080p my framerate would go down by 30-40%.

So yes you are looking at 4TF next generation with some effects and resolution scaled up to 10-12TF much like you can make shadows nicer in some PC games and crush your best GPU and won't look that much better than shadows on medium.

Shame, i though GI would become standard.

You could tessellate or subdivide real-time for more powerful systems, that’s what they do with CGI in off line rendering for movies .

but I bet there are many tricks to make it work. Or a more aggressive culling method. More aggressive mesh shaders .

 

[Tulipanzo]

You don't have to account for that RAM budget, because that scales together with your assets... So lower quality assets, lower RAM needed.

Which means you have to worsen your assets, which means extra work, which means extra strain on devs, which means extra time and money on XBox titles, all so they can look worse.

UE5 is supposed to let you use "your highest quality assets", which just won't be possible here.

Again, it's not the same. First of all save games are NOT shared using cross-buy. Tell me 1 game that shares save games using cross-buy? Secondly cross-buy is just downloading separate games, while smart delivery only installs the right assets.

It's called cross-save, I literally just used it to get all MGS3 and MGS2 trophies on Vita (don't tell Kojima).
Haven't opened my Vita often, but it's the same on Helldivers and Rocket League afaik.

They are the fucking same
Smart Delivery:
*access game on X1 -> X1 version plays
*access game on XSX -> XSX version plays
Cross-buy:
*access game on Vita -> Vita version plays
*access game on PS4 -> PS4 version plays

How much of your assets are preserved is meaningless, as it's down to the developer and the core code is the same in both cases.
I'm not even dissing Smart Delivery, so this is a very stupid hill to die on.

Like I said. Halo and HB2 wasn't even gameplay, and I specifically said that I wanted to compare gameplay from 1st party games, not 3rd party. So yeah, I believe that in the first year we won't notice an influence from Xbox One on game development for XSX, and for the whole gen we don't notice an influence from Lockhart.

If XBox One development won't influence XSX, then all enhanced titles are a fair comparison, going by your logic.
H:I and HB2 have shown visuals, so it's again more than fair to compare visuals.

Nobody is talking about comparing non-existent gameplay, and if anything in-game custscenes will look even better, so what's there to be worried about?

 

[Tulipanzo]

Is that a general feature or on a game to game basis, when we're talking Playstation?

A dev might theoretically choose not to support cross-save I guess, but I don't remember it happening in cross-buy titles.
More often games aren't cross-buy, but have cross-save anyway.

Most cases, saves are shared automatically or the player can choose when to sync them. So again, same as Smart Delivery.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

Which means you have to worsen your assets, which means extra work, which means extra strain on devs, which means extra time and money on XBox titles, all so they can look worse.

UE5 is supposed to let you use "your highest quality assets", which just won't be possible here.

You already had to worsen your assets for PC... They are just using lower quality assets that they would use for the min. req. of the PC version.

It's called cross-save, I literally just used it to get all MGS3 and MGS2 trophies on Vita (don't tell Kojima).
Haven't opened my Vita often, but it's the same on Helldivers and Rocket League afaik.

They are the fucking same
Smart Delivery:
*access game on X1 -> X1 version plays
*access game on XSX -> XSX version plays
Cross-buy:
*access game on Vita -> Vita version plays
*access game on PS4 -> PS4 version plays

How much of your assets are preserved is meaningless, as it's down to the developer and the core code is the same in both cases.
I'm not even dissing Smart Delivery, so this is a very stupid hill to die on.

Cross-save is a decision made by the developer, while in case of smart delivery this is always there. No matter which game you play, every save game will join you.

If XBox One development won't influence XSX, then all enhanced titles are a fair comparison, going by your logic.
H:I and HB2 have shown visuals, so it's again more than fair to compare visuals.

Nobody is talking about comparing non-existent gameplay, and if anything in-game custscenes will look even better, so what's there to be worried about?

If you want to compare visuals, go ahead. HB2 looked amazing, so not sure how Lockhart or XB1 is holding back that.

 

[John254]

You already had to worsen your assets for PC... They are just using lower quality assets that they would use for the min. req. of the PC version.


Cross-save is a decision made by the developer, while in case of smart delivery this is always there. No matter which game you play, every save game will join you.


If you want to compare visuals, go ahead. HB2 looked amazing, so not sure how Lockhart or XB1 is holding back that.

Yup. I just don't understand why it is big deal. All XGS studios will also make their games for PC where you need to scale it to weaker HW, so why would be a problem to make your game also for Lockhart? And devs of multiplatform games also need to target PC and scale their games. I just don't get it.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

I mentioned this once before, but i think it bears repeating; for the entirety of this generation, Xbox hardware prices at launch had been consistently higher than game forum predictions.

Xbox One, Xbox One X, Xbox S A D. All three launched at a higher price than what Gaf predicted. All three have since dropped in price, but it doesn't change the fact that Xbox clear have a different idea about pricing their stuff than what Gaf expects.

So my question is, how is it going to be any different this time around? Why is it that so many people consistently assume that Microsoft would give away their hardware at crazy discount prices? And when they are proven wrong, why do they refuse to adjust their expectations?

 

[TBiddy]

I've always been a huge fan of making broad generalizations. "Gaf predicted", "Gaf expects", "so many people", "they are proven wrong", "they refuse".

It doesn't get any less specific than that.

 

[Tulipanzo]

You already had to worsen your assets for PC... They are just using lower quality assets that they would use for the min. req. of the PC version.

Min reqs on PC are an active decision you have to make, and MS could easily require higher GPU cards capable of virtualizing geometry.

The extra work on Lockhart would then be wholly avoidable, while still supporting PCs.
Mid/low-range cards are already beating it, so it'd be far from inconceivable.

Cross-save is a decision made by the developer, while in case of smart delivery this is always there. No matter which game you play, every save game will join you.

Which is again the same of cross-buy.
A dev could turn off cross-save in both cases, but nobody does it because it's an idiotic move with no purpose.

And now you're arguing hypothetical feature removal, when before went on about asset share and didn't know about cross-save at all.

If you want to compare visuals, go ahead. HB2 looked amazing, so not sure how Lockhart or XB1 is holding back that.

HB2 was an in-engine trailer, so there was no need to optimize for Lockhart at all. It's also not releasing on X1.

You jump from "can't judge a game without gameplay" to "this is perfectly representative of final product" so fast

 

[magnumpy]

MEGATON!!1

the next gen wars are over Microsoft has defeated all opponents

Sony and nintendo wiped away in one clean motion D:

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

I've always been a huge fan of making broad generalizations. "Gaf predicted", "Gaf expects", "so many people", "they are proven wrong", "they refuse".

It doesn't get any less specific than that.

So let me ask you; when was the last time Xbox had a launch price that was cheaper than YOU expected? I am not talking about Gaf in general, just you and your opinions.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Is that a general feature or on a game to game basis, when we're talking Playstation?

Smart Delivery isn't a general feature on Xbox. It's on a game by game basis. Cross buy is also on a game by game basis.

It's the existence of BC that will force publishers hands at supporting I think, but I could be wrong. Either way it would be good if Sony talked about it again, and lead the way by applying cross buy to Last of Us 2 and Ghosts of Tsushima. We will see.

 

[Dontero]

You could tessellate or subdivide real-time for more powerful systems, that’s what they do with CGI in off line rendering for movies .

Tesselation was supposed to save gaming 10 years ago. Since then it is barely used and most of the time other way around. Aka to transition LOD1 into LOD0 assets rather than to transform LOD1 into LOD2.

Tesselation uses a lot of power which is why it is not used widely since its introduction.

As of CGI in movies they just use original assets. They don't need to tesselate anything because they render one frame by hours not in frames per second.

 

[yurqqa]

How about the idea to make Lockhart the same CPU and GPU wise, but remove internal SSD and BLu-Ray.
It'll play the games

from cartridges in SSD-slot !

XBOX 64 !

 

[Dontero]

Over the months that have since passed, I now believe Xbox Division is truly foolish enough to do the deed. And now I just watch the Xbox next gen news, with the mentality of watching a slow motion train crash.

Imho i think MS will finish with console generations in official announcement with lockhart. Not only lockhart will be next gen console but they will also make XboxOne and Pro also future compatible.

Basically games will come with attached:

Playable on:

Xbox Series X [X]
Xbox Lockhart [ ]
Xbox One X [ ]
Xbox One [ ]

or:

Game requires minimum Xbox Series X to play.

Same way phones operate with games.

Only other option i see for them is to make Xbox Lockhart default console. While Series X will be basically what Xbox One X was. Just 4k version of Xbox lockhart. Game will look the same as on Lockhart but in 4k.

 

[TBiddy]

So let me ask you; when was the last time Xbox had a launch price that was cheaper than YOU expected? I am not talking about Gaf in general, just you and your opinions.

Why does it matter?

I'm just poking at your generalizations that are about as unspecific and useless for any form of discussion as they get.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

Imho i think MS will finish with console generations in official announcement with lockhart. Not only lockhart will be next gen console but they will also make XboxOne and Pro also future compatible.

Basically games will come with attached:

Playable on:

Xbox Series X [X]
Xbox Lockhart [ ]
Xbox One X [ ]
Xbox One [ ]

or:

Game requires minimum Xbox Series X to play.

Same way phones operate with games.

Only other option i see for them is to make Xbox Lockhart default console. While Series X will be basically what Xbox One X was. Just 4k version of Xbox lockhart. Game will look the same as on Lockhart but in 4k.

See, you make it sound so easy... And it would be, if we were talking about Software. Microsoft is very much used to releasing software in tiers, ripping up a full product and sell it for less with components missing.

But we are talking about Hardware here. Releasing, and Marketing, two different SKUs is a different beast. But i no longer care to explain why it is a bad idea, because it isn't like it matters. As i say, this is going to be a train crash, because the train is already in motion and the breaks had already failed. Nothing i say in an internet forum thread is going to stop the inevitable.

Why does it matter?

I'm just poking at your generalizations that are about as unspecific and useless for any form of discussion as they get.

It matters because you know very well my generalization applies to you. Because you would have immediately stated otherwise if you could disprove my statement with a counter example via your own position. You know you under-estimate the pricing of Xbox hardware, and that there is no logic to continue doing so.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

Min reqs on PC are an active decision you have to make, and MS could easily require higher GPU cards capable of virtualizing geometry.

The extra work on Lockhart would then be wholly avoidable, while still supporting PCs.
Mid/low-range cards are already beating it, so it'd be far from inconceivable.

Can we compare actual low range cards with this? DF did an article on this, it was pretty interesting. The conclusion was:
"While the tests here can only really be considered a very rough ballpark approximation of what the real thing may deliver, the basic concept of scalability seems to check out"

Which is again the same of cross-buy.
A dev could turn off cross-save in both cases, but nobody does it because it's an idiotic move with no purpose.

And now you're arguing hypothetical feature removal, when before went on about asset share and didn't know about cross-save at all.

Hmm ok, learned something. Thanks!

HB2 was an in-engine trailer, so there was no need to optimize for Lockhart at all. It's also not releasing on X1.

You jump from "can't judge a game without gameplay" to "this is perfectly representative of final product" so fast

You were the one saying that we should be able to compare with what we've already seen in those trailers for HB2 and Halo, I'm now agreeing with you if that's what you want to do...

 

[Tulipanzo]

Imho i think MS will finish with console generations in official announcement with lockhart. Not only lockhart will be next gen console but they will also make XboxOne and Pro also future compatible.

Basically games will come with attached:

Playable on:

Xbox Series X [X]
Xbox Lockhart [ ]
Xbox One X [ ]
Xbox One [ ]

or:

Game requires minimum Xbox Series X to play.

Same way phones operate with games.

Only other option i see for them is to make Xbox Lockhart default console. While Series X will be basically what Xbox One X was. Just 4k version of Xbox lockhart. Game will look the same as on Lockhart but in 4k.

What they're doing is sending boxes to retail with just XBOX on them.
That's going to cause a lot of headaches down the road for staff.

 

[Marlenus]

I always wondered why so many people in game forums buy into the "scale down from Series X" propaganda. That was never how it worked. In fact it is so unbelievable, that I could only assume those who say so did so with the intent to deceive. That was why I never really argued against such people; I assume they were lying to begin with.

Months and months ago, when the rumor of Lockhart surfaced, I outright dismissed it as ridiculous. I see it as a disastrous decision to launch with two tiers, and assumed that Xbox division is not suicidal enough to make that call.

Over the months that have since passed, I now believe Xbox Division is truly foolish enough to do the deed.
And now I just watch the Xbox next gen news, with the mentality of watching a slow motion train crash.

Xbox hardware is doomed, by their own actions. I am just here for the fireworks, since I am a late adopter and isn't going to buy a machine for a long while yet.

Have you not read any GPU reviews. The techpowerup review of the 5500XT is a good start. Averages 68fps @1080p and the 5700XT averages 49fps @4k when the settings are the same bar resolution.

The gap between the 5700 and the 5500 is smaller than the gap between series X and the series S rumours so seems reasonable that if you can hit 60fps at 4k with the X you can hit 60fps at 1080p on the S at the same graphics settings.

This obviously requires the CPU and SSD to have the same performance in both systems and for the S to have enough ram.

 

[Boxman]

Minecraft RT runs at 1080p on XSX, and UE5 is going to reconstruct from lower resolutions, using GPU power to virtualize geometry.
These things just can't work on Lockhart, meaning devs would have to go back to making LODs to try and get games to 1080p; it's far from the quick and easy port people are painting it as.

People need to read this before they claim that Lockhart won't hold SX games back.

 

[TBiddy]

It matters because you know very well my generalization applies to you. Because you would have immediately stated otherwise if you could disprove my statement with a counter example via your own position. You know you under-estimate the pricing of Xbox hardware, and that there is no logic to continue doing so.

I found your generalizations laughable. They usually are, though, especially when they aren't backed up by anything substansial.

Also, I'd advise you to stop analyzing other peoples posts like that. You're not good at it.

 

[TheContact]

There's no way it's going to be $300. Absolutely no way unless MS is willing to take a massive loss on each console sold.

 

[hunthunt]

Yeah, good look selling that.