bonesmccoy
Banned
Pretty much every IMF loan comes with these conditions. Smash the social services/government infrastructure, cut spending.
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Ukraine/Russia conflict NEWS thread - Updates on the Ukrainian crisis.
- Thread starter CitizenVectron
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Pretty much every IMF loan comes with these conditions. Smash the social services/government infrastructure, cut spending.
I have a few general questions, and i apologize if this comes off as ignorant.
It looks like this conflict is taking place in Ukraine... if Russia is saying they are not involved, why is the conversation continuing to involve them?
If they have no control over rebels...Why would Russia speak on the rebels behalf, and why would the rebels allow that?
if Russia isn't involved, why is Europe scared of Russia progressing?
When they are talking about an agreement, how are the rebels being addressed or identified, if at all?
It looks like this conflict is taking place in Ukraine... if Russia is saying they are not involved, why is the conversation continuing to involve them?
If they have no control over rebels...Why would Russia speak on the rebels behalf, and why would the rebels allow that?
if Russia isn't involved, why is Europe scared of Russia progressing?
When they are talking about an agreement, how are the rebels being addressed or identified, if at all?
Because Russia is supplying the rebels with men,weapons and money.
The rebels are pretty much just puppets of Russia, so Russia does have control of them.
Russia says they aren't involved, but its pretty obvious to everyone that doesn't listen to Russian propaganda that they are essential to the "rebellion". They have also talked about taking back some baltic states so Europe is worried about it.
The rebels are left out of the negotiations since Russia controls them.
Resident_UA
Member
Obviously I'm pretty sure that Russia is behind everything. But I think people who make this argument are trying to say that Russia "changed" after taking Crimea and now it can be trustworthy.
The rebels do have a leader, but that person always changes. During last summer it was mostly Russians ("volunteers") that were handling everything, now they threw few Ukrainians in the mix. Russia wants US to believe that the area of about 13% of Ukraine is able to defeat Ukrainian forces without any outside help.
Imagine if Russia still could play that intem government not legit card. People who "came to power" as part of this "illegitimate government" weren't really new people. It's still the same shitty corrupt government in Ukraine. Ironically that's what Russia is trying to preserve.
Could you care to share your research?
While I don't want to go into huge detail about the criminalisation of Svoboda and Oleh Tyahnybok and their potential role in the Kiev riots/western-approved intern Gov, as there is many videos and articles on it and do not want to be perceived as opening a large debate, to be facilitating an agenda or opening myself up to be scrutinised, but I will post this quickly searched link to a fairly reputable source, although there are quite a few others which display a much more brutal role/brutal associations (reputable or not, personal opinion subjective) and leave it at that
http://www.ibtimes.com/svoboda-rising-spectre-neo-nazism-ukraine-974110
The Ukraine’s far-right ultra-nationalist political party, Svoboda All-Ukrainian Union, recently received global media attention after one of its officials called Ukrainian-born American film actress Mila Kunis a “dirty Jewess,” sparking outrage in Western Europe, Israel and the U.S.
Ihor Miroshnychenko, the deputy chief of Svoboda, wrote on his Facebook account: “[Kunis] is not Ukrainian, she is a Yid. She is proud of it, so [the] Star of David be with her.”
However, this was only the latest inflammatory incident involving the extreme right-wing party which espouses a virulently xenophobic, anti-Semitic, anti-gay, and anti-Russian agenda.
European and Israeli leaders expressed shock in October when Svoboda gained more than 10 percent of the electorate in parliamentary elections, entering the legislature for the first time ever. (In some western regions of Ukraine, Svoboda gained as much as 40 percent of the vote.).
As recently as the 2007 parliamentary elections, Svoboda only garnered 0.76 percent of the total vote.
In the parliament, Svoboda now boasts 37 deputies – making it the fourth largest party in the 450-member body -- who are adamantly opposed to pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovych.
Founded in 1991 as the Social-National Party of Ukraine, Svoboda has apparently appealed to hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians weary of economic woes and rampant corruption in government. Recent reports suggest that the party has derived significant support from the well-educated and the young.
"I'm for Svoboda," a supporter named Vadim Makarevych told BBC at a rally in Kiev. "We have to stop what is happening in our country. It's banditry and mafia."
Svoboda members have been in the middle of a number of violent brawls that have erupted in parliament since the election, solidifying its image as a rabble-rousing organization.
Andreas Umland, a German-born visiting Senior Lecturer in Political Science at the National University of Kyiv-Mohyla Academy who is an expert on extremist groups, told the Financial Times: “The surge in Svoboda’s popularity is clearly a protest vote, a reaction to the policies of Yanukovich, who draws his support mostly from Russian-speaking eastern Ukraine and whose policies are seen by many voters as ‘Ukrainaphobic’.”
Umland added: “For many Ukrainians, Svoboda is viewed as a disciplined party that could put up the strongest of fights with Mr. Yanukovich and his oligarchs.”
The party is linked to the Patriots of Ukraine, widely regarded as a neo-Nazi group, and is also informally allied with France’s extreme right wing National Front.
Among other things, Svoboda (which means ‘freedom’
Anti-Semitism appears to hold a core position in Svoboda’s party ideology. In 2004, the party’s charismatic leader Oleh Tyahnybok delivered a speech in parliament in which he alleged that a "Muscovite-Jewish mafia" was controlling the Ukraine and threatened the country’s very existence.
Tyahnybok also claimed that “organized Jewry” dominate Ukrainian media and government, have enriched themselves through criminal activities and plan to engineer a “genocide” upon the Christian Ukrainian population.
Another top Svoboda member, Yuriy Mykhalchyshyn, a deputy in parliament, often quotes former German Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels, as well as other Third Reich luminaries like Ernst Roehm and Gregor Strasser.
Tyahnybok has repeatedly sought inspiration from Ukrainian insurgents who fought in World War II.
“They did not fear, but took up their automatic rifles, going into the woods to fight Muscovites, Germans, Jewry and other filth which wanted to take away our Ukrainian nationhood. It’s time to give Ukraine to the Ukrainians. Like them, you are most feared by the Moscow-Jewish mafia which today runs Ukraine,” he said.
Responding to concerns about his party’s anti-Semitism, Tiahnybok insisted Svoboda is pro-Ukrainian and not hostile to any other group.
“I respect the position of [Israel], which defends the interests of its citizens,” he said after the parliamentary elections.
“I would like to ask Israelis to also respect our patriotic feelings. Probably each party in the [Israeli parliament] Knesset is nationalist. With God’s help, let it be this way for us too.”
Svoboda also assails non-whites.
In February, Yuriy Syrotiuk, a Svoboda spokesman, expressed his unhappiness over the appearance of Gaitana-Lurdes Essami, a half-Ukrainian, half-Congolese singer, who represented Ukraine in the Eurovision music contest, citing that she “is not an organic representative of the Ukrainian culture.”
Svoboda also expresses extreme hostility towards homosexuals – party members recently attacked and sprayed tear gas at the participants of a gay rights rally in the capital Kiev.
“Thanks to the five nationalists, the Sabbath of 50 perverts was broken up,” Svoboda stated, referring to the disturbance.
“They pulled out banners with perverted slogans, after which the protesters used teargas on them, but they received a decent rebuff.”
Separately, the integrity and retention of Ukrainian language and culture also represents a pillar of Svoboda’s ideology.
Alarmed by the expanding use of the Russian tongue in public and government, the party has advocated for the banning of the foreign language. Among other measures, Svoboda demands that all parliamentarians speak Ukrainian instead of Russian.
The Svoboda party has also opposed the renaming of streets in the country to Russian-friendly titles.
Indeed. Moscow appears to draw the most opprobrium from Svoboda, which alleges Russia is still suppressing the Ukraine and frustrating its integration with the EU.
Indeed, in refuting charges of anti-Semitism, Svoboda frequently notes that, like the Jews, Ukrainians also suffered a holocaust -- Joseph Stalin’s induced famine in the 1930s which killed millions.
But Svoboda’s longer-term viability remains doubtful. The Kyiv Post newspaper reported that if presidential elections were held now Tiahnybok would only receive 7.8 percent of the vote, far below the 25 percent that the incumbent Yanukovych would get. (The next actual election is not scheduled until 2015).
In the meantime, Ukraine’s economy, which essentially collapsed in 2009, could prompt more voters to embrace extremist political parties.
Below is a link to the article, photos pulled from article:
McCain, Arseniy Yatsenyuk (The now Ukraine Prime Minister), left, and Oleh Tyahnybok (The leader of the aforementioned seemingly extremist party.) and Senator McCain on Saturday, Dec. 14, 2013
McCain and Oleh Tyahnybok at the Pro-European rally.
article: http://www.businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahnybok-in-ukraine-2013-12?IR=T
thank you (and Resident)
i just thought i was missing something because it seems pretty transparent.
everything else is just.. noise
Never forget. "No troops in Crimea"
http://sputniknews.com/russia/20140304/188087074/Putin-Denies-Sending-Russian-Troops-to-Crimea.html
http://sputniknews.com/russia/20140304/188087074/Putin-Denies-Sending-Russian-Troops-to-Crimea.html
Veritigo_X
Member
No plans to annex Crimea either. Putin must be making up ideas as he goes.
Resident_UA
Member
While I don't want to go into huge detail about the criminalisation of Svoboda and Oleh Tyahnybok and their potential role in the Kiev riots/western-approved intern Gov, as there is many videos and articles on it and do not want to be perceived as opening a large debate, to be facilitating an agenda or opening myself up to be scrutinised, but I will post this quickly searched link to a fairly reputable source, although there are quite a few others which display a much more brutal role/brutal associations (reputable or not, personal opinion subjective) and leave it at that
http://www.ibtimes.com/svoboda-rising-spectre-neo-nazism-ukraine-974110
Below is a link to the article, photos pulled from article: with Arseniy Yatsenyuk, the now Prime minister of Ukraine on Saturday, Dec. 14, 2013 and Oleh Tyahnybok The leader of the aforementioned seemingly extremist party.
McCain, Arseniy Yatsenyuk (The now Ukraine Prime Minister), left, and Oleh Tyahnybok (the extremist)
McCain and Oleh Tyahnybok at the Pro-European rally.
article: http://www.businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahnybok-in-ukraine-2013-12?IR=T
How is that any worse than right parties in rest of Europe? Even in the article it says that it is "friends" with "France’s extreme right wing National Front". Why isn't Ukraine allowed to have right parties but the rest of Europe is?
And this article says exactly the same thing as Wikipedia, not sure why you bothered
How is that any worse than right parties in rest of Europe? Even in the article it says that it is "friends" with "Frances extreme right wing National Front". Why isn't Ukraine allowed to have right parties but the rest of Europe is?
And this article says exactly the same thing as Wikipedia, not sure why you bothered
I don't think anyone should, but personally I think they are as far-right as they become, they are extremely Nazi-oriented, brutal and have affiliation and association with extreme violence, wiki was a little scarce on info and I felt he wasn't just a little right-of-center
. Believe me there are plenty other more interesting articles out there that tie him into the Ukraine crisis The Ukraine Deputy Oleg Tsarov that blew the whistle on the (potential, [to be PC]) US-Ukraine coup in this video in his address to the Ukrainian government on Nov 2013 (pre-Maidan riots/protests by 3 months?) addresses parliament under duress was actually beaten by a pro-Svoboda mob (reportedly)
If anything it is interesting to watch something like this happen in parliament. He mentions pre-knowledge of a 'Civil war in Ukraine' and manipulation of modern media. A Scary view and potential misdirection from our Media. imo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9hOl8TuBUM
Again I'm not sure how these shills get away with this shit.
In any other thread that's bannable.
edit: I see Kabouter warned him about it. Can't wait for him to do it again.
Veritigo_X
Member
Yamauchi said he isn't posting in this thread anymore. Apparently being asked to be accurate in his posts was just too much.
Resident_UA
Member
I don't think anyone should, but personally I think they are as far-right as they become, they are extremely Nazi-oriented, brutal and have affiliation and association with extreme violence, wiki was a little scarce on info and I felt he wasn't just a little right-of-center
The Ukraine Deputy Oleg Tsarov that blew the whistle on the (potential, [to be PC]) US-Ukraine coup in this video in his address to the Ukrainian government on Nov 2013 (pre-Maidan riots/protests by 3 months?) addresses parliament under duress was actually beaten by a pro-Svoboda mob (reportedly)
If anything it is interesting to watch something like this happen in parliament. He mentions pre-knowledge of a 'Civil war in Ukraine' and manipulation of modern media.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9hOl8TuBUM
Where do you get this stuff?! Tsarov run to Russia. He also is famous by saying on Ukrainian TV that World War did not start until 1941
The guy is also found of Stalin and wants Soviet Union back. He is MUCH worse than Svoboda. All the stuff that you have is very much out of context.
This thing was not "pre-maidan." This was a speech in defense of refusing to sigh deal with EU which Yanukovich was supposed to sign. They knew that this would not be accepted by the people so they came up with a million excuses why they didn't sign it. This is just one of many excuses. On January 16th this guy was the one of many who voted for "dictatorship" laws which caused a huge uproar among protesters, which led to escalation of conflict.
You are a living proof that Russia is winning propaganda war
Where do you get this stuff?! Tsarov run to Russia. He also is famous by saying on Ukrainian TV that World War did not start until 1941
The guy is also found of Stalin and wants Soviet Union back. He is MUCH worse than Svoboda. All the stuff that you have is very much out of context.
I'm sure he is pro-Russian, his entire party was and the country itself, it was probably safer to run to Russia given that they reportedly burned down all the communist party buildings, banned the Russian language etc but even if he thinks he can walk through walls, its still an important peace of information that can spiral quite a bit of inquisitive research, that has you asking yourself questions.
The subject interests me, so as I said, iv done a fair bit of research, from balanced views and alternative views, but you have to admit, having pre-knowledge of a coup in the Ukrainian parlament, using social and western media to instigate a certain and 'different' narrative is a v scary prospect.
Resident_UA
Member
This is INSANELY out of context. From my response above.
This thing was not "pre-maidan." This was a speech in defense of refusing to sigh deal with EU which Yanukovich was supposed to sign. They knew that this would not be accepted by the people so they came up with a million excuses why they didn't sign it. This is just one of many excuses. On January 16th this guy was the one of many who voted for "dictatorship" laws which caused a huge uproar among protesters, which led to escalation of conflict.
You are a living proof that Russia is winning propaganda war
Resident_UA
Member
Wait?!!! Did you just say that Russian language was BANNED?!!! What the fuck? How is it possible to be so ignorant? 80% of Kiev speaks Russian!!!
They tried to reverse the law where regions could have set their own second and third official languages. But this was NEVER SIGNED BY THE PRESIDENT.
Communist party participated in last election and just didn't pass 3% barrier. How can you be so misinformed and keep pretending that you've "done a fair bit of research"
And what's extremely depressing this propaganda that you assume is true is a year old... Most people figured things out by now...
I don't know I don't speak the language, although transcript says 20.11.2013, bottom text says that, the context seems correct and the google translate on the comments (obviously not great sources) suggest authenticity, although I don't fall for any propaganda, it is just 1 peace of information from many on both possible arguments using an open mind.
Didnt they ban the language in schools so kids could no longer learn it as a second language?
I will leave it there on this subject. I see your getting a little emotional on it.
Resident_UA
Member
Because everything you said is not true. It's very depressing that people believe these things.
"pre-maidan" in this context does not mean anything. This was one of many excuses why the deal was not signed. There was huge public support for the deal (you can even hear shouting in a background). This speech was targeted at opposition to the Russia economic agreement. This guy is known to blame US for everything that he didn't like. By definition this was a speech connected to Maidan. There were similar speeches (about Civil war) many times when politicians tried to play language/Russia card.
Even in Lviv some schools have Russian as FIRST language. In many areas students are being taught EVERYTHING in Russian. Not only what you saying isn't true, it is insane to suggest that it is.
Resident_UA
Member
So Yamauchi down, Vizzeh and Outcome to go.
Resident_UA
Member
To be fair I don't think Vizzeh is doing this on purpose. It's just a reflection on how successful Russian propaganda is
I do.
You'll be better off just ignoring the propagandists, engaging just encourages them.
In actual news, apparently Sanctions are still coming:
In actual news, apparently Sanctions are still coming:
Your trying WAY too hard to disprove and undermine although you have probably made valid points. I will take your word for it, as I said if something is rhetoric or not, I will leave that to the subjection of the viewer
.Anyway, There is peace and hope at the minute so semantics are irrelevant at this point.
edit:
On the propaganda, im not a fan of the 'If it is not the Government line' its propaganda. Im critical of anything, I don't necessarily have a made up mind, I keep it open, be that to individual pieces of information or the entire narrative. If any you find what iv said Interesting, well done, its a discussion. If you dislike it. Ignore it
Resident_UA
Member
If he is he should be banned for the statement below alone. Very easy to fact check and serves no purpose...
I completely agree.
Resident_UA
Member
What valid points? Everything you said before you corrected yourself was not true. Not just some of it, not just a part. Literally everything.
1. Ukrainian government was elected a while ago, not just a week ago so you could miss it
2. Svoboda is not killing people like you implied first
3. The video you posted is out of context
4. Svoboda did not beat up that guy
5. All communist party buildings weren't burned down
6. Communist party is still well and alive (sadly)
7. Russian language was not banned
8. You can learn Russian language in school in Ukraine
9. You can learn ANYTHING in Ukraine being TAUGHT in Russian language
So I am not allowed an opinion, iv clearly stated intention to discuss with facts and shown where appropriate inquisitive pre-text to anything iv said If I wasn't sure. Or is it just to illegitimise everything iv said, up to now? by picking holes, resident you guided my line of answers with questions and I answered them.
Let me make this clear, Putin can jog on, I don't give a rats ass what he does with his country. Being from the UK, I want peace in Ukraine and disparaging me from using a forum based on your own personal opinion is the anti-thesis of freedom-of-speech and what democracy is trying to instil, shouldn't be so hypocritical. Net neutrality is not active yet.
edit:
PS. That is an impressive list, which I feel no need to argue as i have covered my points with info or sources/youtube, saying everything I have said is false until now, is completely disengenious, forcing me to re-do my points whilst undermining facts..
you are allowed your opinion though, i'm sure myself and other's can make up our own minds. I will leave it there, goodnight. its going off-topic
infact. Im just going to leave the topic indefinitely, due to trolling and lack of understanding in context and one-sided opinions.
Resident_UA
Member
But that's not the point. The things you believe in are part of Russian propaganda. I realize that I take these too seriously, but a reason why you believe it is because Russia succeeded.
For example, somehow at some point you thought that Russian language was banned in Ukraine. Such mistake I guess could happen, but then you keep throwing a statement that you "have done research". If random person just enters this thread the might believe that. Not only you convinced yourself of an insane concept (how do you even ban a language?!) but you are misleading others.
Naive in the extreme to think Russia will adhere to all this and allow Ukraine back in full control of its own border.
Indeed. At best Russia will allow a Crimea type situation, where the border region has it's own "referendum" to join Russia or become independent.
The only alternative to Ukraine keeping its borders intact (except Crimea) is for NATO/EU/US troops to be deployed to the area for peacekeeping long term. Ultimately I feel the area will end up fractured like the Balkans, with some joining EU/NATO and others staying out and/or joining Russia.
SymbiantXenos
Member
Russia won't stick to anything. They continue to send in armor and troops today. Do people really think they'll just stop midnight sunday and go home?
Lol.
At the start of this thread I was hoping to see a quick end ans it's been almost a year.
This thread will still be active in 2016. We'll be at minsk 5 or 6 by then.
Lol.
At the start of this thread I was hoping to see a quick end ans it's been almost a year.
This thread will still be active in 2016. We'll be at minsk 5 or 6 by then.
It should surprise no one that the "rebel" leaders wanted peacekeeping forces in Donbass to come from CSTO countries. So basically Russian troops with a few token soldiers from Belarus and those pretend countries like South Ossetia.
SymbiantXenos
Member
There's another ammo (humanitarian) convoy due from Russia this Sunday. Attacks always increase after they've been. Watch for this Sunday.
MonsterHunter
Member
People don't like when I spread FUD and poorly sourced often outright false articles??
To be fair, that's exactly what they did when the first Minsk agreement went into effect. They pulled out almost immediately even though the fighting did continue.
Two good reads:
Putins Frozen Conflicts
The Government Is Losing Territory In Eastern Ukrainians Hearts And Minds
Putins Frozen Conflicts
https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/02/13/putins-frozen-conflicts/
The Government Is Losing Territory In Eastern Ukrainians Hearts And Minds
http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/t...erritory-in-eastern-ukrainians-hea#.oddqkA7YJ
Can you point out what part of that post suggested the UK was secretly arming Ukraine? The #UKInvadedUkraine part was a sarcastic quip at the hashtag #RussiaInvadedUkraine.
At least the BBC is coming around: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02jcrf3 -- In this BBC World Service report, Gatehouse discovers evidence that the Maidan protesters armed with hunting rifles fired on the police first, and that the video of Ukrainian police shot after 9am was in fact simply returning fire.
Too little, too late. Perhaps the BBC should have reported this before the Maidan coup.
Resident_UA
Member
Why are you changing topic again?! Didn't you promise you won't do it?
Plus it's pretty clear you are not informed enough to use the word "coup."
Also I can't believe you can say "simply returning fire" when watching video below. You can say that this was US conspiracy, EU snipers, but "simply returning fire"?!!! Have you completely been absorbed by Russian propaganda? Can't you think for yourself?
http://youtu.be/MPTOtSs17QQ
hi Yamauchi, can you entertain my questions real quick given your comment above? Outcome and Vezzeh, too.
Thanks
It was a popular overthrow of executive in Ukraine. Suddenly one incident is the smoking gun? You're not even trying anymore. Keep reading RT and posting on ATS.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Strange how in the HD video footage of dozens of different people getting shot on Institutskaya Street by snipers, not one of them is armed.
I also like how the line being pushed has changed from NATO CIA POLISH-LITHUANIAN COMMONWEALTH NAZI FALSE FLAG to "the police were defending themselves"
lmao do you have no shame
I also like how the line being pushed has changed from NATO CIA POLISH-LITHUANIAN COMMONWEALTH NAZI FALSE FLAG to "the police were defending themselves"
lmao do you have no shame
If you're lurking this thread and looking to research the conflict, vet the sources posted here, read the articles in entirety, and figure out why a poster would include a certain article in their post.
Lots of Russian and Ukrainian sites are being posted here who aren't as credible as others. Be careful reading.
Lots of Russian and Ukrainian sites are being posted here who aren't as credible as others. Be careful reading.
EricTheCleric
Member
could you please divulge us into what the sources of these balanced and alternative views are?
Right Sector has some problems, but they aren't claiming land within Ukraine as soverign territory.
I just wish Ukraine would declare martial law in the East and round up everyone with a gun and be over with it. What would happen if you had people in England or America declare that they were going to be independent, blowing up international flights, kidnapping journalists? Of course no one can do anything because it's Russia and they have nukes.
And Yanukovych? Remember the first time he ran? Against Yushchenko? The Yuschenko that was poisoned with military grade dioxin? And who had to have the election thrown out and international observers come in? And then years later he manages to get elected, and now a second fucking revolution happens to get him tossed again? He had a fucking pirate ship in a man made lake next to his mansion where everything was covered in gold?
He was cartoonishly corrupt!
I just wish Ukraine would declare martial law in the East and round up everyone with a gun and be over with it. What would happen if you had people in England or America declare that they were going to be independent, blowing up international flights, kidnapping journalists? Of course no one can do anything because it's Russia and they have nukes.
And Yanukovych? Remember the first time he ran? Against Yushchenko? The Yuschenko that was poisoned with military grade dioxin? And who had to have the election thrown out and international observers come in? And then years later he manages to get elected, and now a second fucking revolution happens to get him tossed again? He had a fucking pirate ship in a man made lake next to his mansion where everything was covered in gold?
He was cartoonishly corrupt!
The last times that happened:
1) America declared independence from England (with the help of foreign support).
2) America had a civil war.
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