excelsiorlef
Member
The white majority will become the white plurality. It will still be the largest racial group.
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considering opposition to feminism, black lives matter, LBGT rights, as just differen
- Thread starter Crossing Eden
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The white majority will become the white plurality. It will still be the largest racial group.
excelsiorlef
Member
Ha ha ha... this feels like an AI, programmed to be s bigot, written post.
Congrats you almost passed the Turing test.
BobbyRobby
Member
Cool, You're a telepath too.
Power changes hands. We are living under Trump.
It's sad but not inconceivable to imagine a world where general consensus may change and people would make the same argument to assault a Muslim.
This is the reason government protects speech.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
And your increasing disingenuousness is proving my assumptions about you correct.
You don't have to keep pursuing this line, you know. Because you're not unintelligent.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Amsterdam is a shit ton more progressive than the U,S, and they have hate speech laws.
chromatic9
Member
The problem with punching someone is its against the law.
People die all the time with being punched in the face once. You can fall and crack your head open on the ground or die from the impact. I'm all for the authorities to deal with hate crimes, planning of violence or war and committing violence by fining, locking them up or eradicating.
7DollarHagane
Banned
Miscarriages and birth defects or whatever else causes death is a natural part of life. Aborting a healthy fetus is not.
DOWN
Banned
Our Vice President has been on record to keep it legal for LGBT people to get conversion therapy against their will as minors
Palette Swap
Member
You're approaching this from the angle that anything could be equivalent to nazism. It's a nice theoretical thought. In the real world, nazism is characterized by its refusal to acknowledge the humanity of non-whites and its willingness to suppress them. That's where all these dumb and disingenuous equivalences fall apart: when you're a nazi, you're calling for the elimination of entire races. He's not getting decked for any random ideas, he's getting punch because this family of cunts killed millions of people the last time we let them.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Again, who is suggesting that the legality of assault should be questioned here? Who has advocated that if someone is caught puching a Nazi in their face, they shouldn't be charged with the relevant crime?
There are lots of problems with "punching someone," but "someone" != "Nazis"
The problem with trying to take this conversation out of context and apply it to gauzy hypotheticals is that it not only normalizes Nazi stances (which, by the way, terminate in the genocide of other people), but lowers other, legitimate opinions and arguments, to the Nazis level.
What's in it for you to do that? What benefit are you getting out of that, to put all opinions on the same level and weight them as if there aren't very obvious differences in worth.
(this doesn't even get into the notion of trusting in the authorities when the whole reason we're having this conversation is that the highest levels of authority are being occupied by neo-nazis who provided the platform to the man who just got hit in the jaw on Friday)
People are already being murdered for their opinions and skin colour, this wouldn't be anything new.
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of fascists.
BobbyRobby
Member
Sure, not with you. You seem more concerned with trying to frame me as a Nazi sympathizer than having a discussion.
Yea like I have already said, Im not losing sleep over Spencer getting clocked.
I think threatening people or inciting violence is grounds for assault. That should be the justification for suppressing him, not the thoughts he holds because public opinion is malleable.
User Name Here
Member
I said support OR understand. Meaning you don't have to aggree, but you should understand the purpose and/or reasoning behind the movement before you criticize it.
Saying you don't have a good (i.e. valid) reason to criticize something doesn't inherently mean you can't criticize it. It's just that it's not a good idea. But hey, people talk out of their ass all the time!
If I criticize a decision you, depths20XX, make without knowing much of anything about you, your experiences, or why you made that decision, does that still mean my criticism was justified?
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I don't think I'm trying to frame you as a Nazi sympathizer at all. But if that's the feeling you're getting from your part in the discussion, maybe that's worth some reflection on your part.
If you believe people are malleable why aren't you bending away from the stance you're holding that points you towards a place where your disingenuous line of thought can be seen as sympathetic towards Nazis?
This is what you get when you play devil's advocate. Now you have to carry the devil's water. Nobody asked you to do that, and you can put that shit down whenever you want.
You're not unintelligent. You know what you're doing. It's not my responsibility to talk you into stopping. You can just stop.
Secret Fawful
Member
Richard Spencer is a fucking disgusting cunt, and anyone who believes the same things as him is a disgusting cunt, and Spencer and all other Nazis deserve to get punched in the face, kicked in the nuts, and scared back into whatever hole they came out of.
People who stand up for him or anyone like him should be ashamed of themselves, re-evaluate what they are standing up for, and sit down.
Do you need a history lesson about what these people did and what they believe in?
Josef Mengele tortured and killed thousands of children. He would inject chemicals into their eyes, and other parts of their body. He once sewed two Gypsy children together to create Siamese twins. He once killed tons of children because they didn't reach a specific height. He once killed hundreds of women because they had lice. He experimented on the sick.
The Nazis killed millions, and burned the bodies. They would kill dozens at a time, over and over and over. I don't need to tell you this, though. You already know. You can Google Nazi victims and look at what they did.
This is what Spencer represents. I would post the pictures of the child victims and the piles and piles of corpses if I could. Spencer and anyone else who idolizes this deserves to be punched. They deserve so much worse for this. The Nazis should have died out. They should not exist. Period.
To anyone who feels it is wrong to hit Spencer: Quit standing up for this man. Stand up for the people he hates and wants to oppress and destroy. This isn't just another opinion. This is an ideology that managed to kill millions. And you DARE....you DARE to count this man getting a punch in the face as equivalent! How DARE YOU!
People who stand up for him or anyone like him should be ashamed of themselves, re-evaluate what they are standing up for, and sit down.
Do you need a history lesson about what these people did and what they believe in?
Josef Mengele tortured and killed thousands of children. He would inject chemicals into their eyes, and other parts of their body. He once sewed two Gypsy children together to create Siamese twins. He once killed tons of children because they didn't reach a specific height. He once killed hundreds of women because they had lice. He experimented on the sick.
The Nazis killed millions, and burned the bodies. They would kill dozens at a time, over and over and over. I don't need to tell you this, though. You already know. You can Google Nazi victims and look at what they did.
This is what Spencer represents. I would post the pictures of the child victims and the piles and piles of corpses if I could. Spencer and anyone else who idolizes this deserves to be punched. They deserve so much worse for this. The Nazis should have died out. They should not exist. Period.
To anyone who feels it is wrong to hit Spencer: Quit standing up for this man. Stand up for the people he hates and wants to oppress and destroy. This isn't just another opinion. This is an ideology that managed to kill millions. And you DARE....you DARE to count this man getting a punch in the face as equivalent! How DARE YOU!
That's fine, but fascist and white supremacist thoughts are built-in threats, they're inherently incitements of violence, so there's no benefit of the doubt.
It's not the same as with, let's say, many organized religions, where it's not really the case that every Muslim, Christian, Jew, etc. are bound to and guaranteed to carry out the violence stated in the various holy books.
Nor is necessarily the same with public opinions like being anti-abortion, as that doesn't have the "bombing abortion clinics" feature built into it.
BoosterDuck
Banned
A conceived fetus needs its host's blood, nutrients and resources before it can develop. It's part of a woman's body and only she should decide what to do with it. Now if you can find a way for fetuses to grow out of Women's wombs then that's great we can call off abortions. But yeah a fetus isn't the same as a baby.
Otherwise all those eggs I buy at the supermarket should be called baby chickens instead.
unpopularblargh
Member
False equivalence. If it was ISIS I'm sure most wouldn't object to seeing him punched either.
LudicrousSpeed
Member
The point is that when you're criticizing the movement, you can be one of two things. You can either be a friend to the movement hoping that it switches tactics for increased effectiveness, or you can be the enemy. If you want to portray yourself as anything other than the enemy, you better have an actual record of good work fighting the same oppression. If you don't, then you probably shouldn't consider yourself a friend to the movement, because those in the movement sure as hell aren't going to look at you as such.
When Donald Trump criticizes BLM, no one mistakes that for a well-meaning supporter who has a helpful suggestion. It's the words of the enemy. And if you don't want that to be you, then you better have a long record of fighting the same oppression before the criticism pops up.
archangelmorph
Member
Richard Spencer:
I don't advocate violence against the man either...
Charging him with inciting racial hatred and shipping the fucker off to guantanamo [or worse] however...
I don't advocate violence against the man either...
Charging him with inciting racial hatred and shipping the fucker off to guantanamo [or worse] however...
chromatic9
Member
There's this thing called justice. You want mob rule and vigilantes? That's what's in it for me and everyone, to live in a civilised society without mob rule or people taking the law into their own hands. I'm no way trying to normalize anything. If one is guilty of hate crimes, planning or committing genocide they will be dealt with. If you've got evidence this guy is planning or committing genocide then the authorities would dearly like to know because we dealt with Nazis before and will again if one is a genuine nazi. If we have problems bringing hate speech and acts of genocide to justice then we should be looking the laws, not smashing someone in the face and risking getting thrown in jail for manslaughter.
BobbyRobby
Member
Yea okay, that is actually the strongest justification I have heard, that certain speech carries inherent threats that aren't explicit. Thanks for illuminating the point.
Sorry then for assuming that. Though you have repeatedly made it clear you aren't willing to take my words at face value. I don't want to talk to you.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I want less nazis. Punching one on live television in the middle of their stand-up isn't even remotely the beginning of a slippery slope to widespread mob rule and vigilantism.
I've already addressed, upthread in a response to the other Bobby in this thread, how and why this ridiculous hypothetical isn't really worth entertaining at all.
Here's my question to you: Why is it that your fears turn to mob rule and vigilantism because people aren't upset a Nazi got punched in the face, while you seem relatively unafraid of the reality that the Nazi who was punched has friends advising our President? One of whom literally helped write his inauguration speech
Why are you more worried about mistreatment of Nazis leading to (not at all plausible) potential anarchy than you are NAZIS IN THE HIGHEST REACHES OF AMERICAN GOVERNMENT?
Why are your priorities thus?
No problem, I can understand why time and distance from fascist belief clouds out its inherent violence, but it's effectively hate speech that can not be tolerated, even if people are allowed to speak it in the first place.
And yeah, as someone said before, I wouldn't shed a tear if an ISIS sympathizer were socked repeatedly in the face - and my family is Muslim, who people think are inherently sympathetic to ISIS.
chromatic9
Member
You're really highlighting the point I made before. I'd rather have the authorities conduct an investigation into crimes this guy has committed and get him locked up. I have no sympathy with any Nazi. I can't know about his friends and the relationships, what they've done or not done, that's up to the law. This is sounding very conspiratorial that Nazis are in the highest reaches of the US government.
Lightning_Roller
Banned
Both of these. People's right to live and be equal with one another is not a fucking opinion, it's not politics and it most certainly not up for fucking discussion. And yet more morons keep making the same stupid ass decision of saying it is politics. Read my words: its not fucking politics!!
And nazis need a good old boot to the face. Wholesale.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
It's not conspiratorial at all. It's basic reality.
How much attention have you paid to Stephen Bannon's career, and his placement within the Trump administration?
Yes, you can. Just because you don't doesn't mean the information isn't readily available. Your ignorance on the situation isn't a constant. You can fix that.
You also did not even attempt to answer my question. I'll repost it.
Why is it that your fears turn to mob rule and vigilantism because people aren't upset a Nazi got punched in the face, while you seem relatively unafraid of the reality that the Nazi who was punched has friends advising our President? One of whom literally helped write his inauguration speech
Why are you more worried about mistreatment of Nazis leading to (not at all plausible) potential anarchy than you are NAZIS IN THE HIGHEST REACHES OF AMERICAN GOVERNMENT?
Why are your priorities thus?
faceless007
Member
You're still misunderstanding the point of the punch (and of the idea of society physically opposing Nazis however possible), which is to try to silence and shame them before they go so far as to commit crimes in the name of white supremacy. Better that they live in fear, impotence, and the certainty that they are shunned universally for their views and therefore are essentially powerless to ever act on them -- as they have for the last 50 years -- than for them to feel in any way emboldened or that they could conceivably hold legitimate political power. Sadly, the rise of Trumpism is starting us down the slope of the latter being the case, which makes it all the more important that we do what we can to restore the former status quo as quickly as possible.
Vigilant Walrus
Member
Many people have a score to settle. It doesn't get more rudimentary than nazi idioms, but tomorrow its advocacy for violence against radical muslims who see women as lesser beings or israelis who justify mass murder over what has been done to them by anti semite.
It's not the punch that matters, it's the precedent that matters. It's not a bar you use only once because everyone thinks different and have different yields of hate and oppression.
Many groups can argue that there existence of another ideology is an affront and an insult to their right to live. Countless atrocities have been committed by people who've not had their justice acted out.
It's never "just a punch". Don't fucking kid yourself.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Opinions are not valid just by the virtue of being different. If someone has a stupid, shit stance, they don't deserve any merit.
Alligatorjandro
Banned
Being a nazi isn't an opinion
Frozenprince
Banned
People white knighting for a nazi that got sucker punched.
Seen it all now.
Seen it all now.
I tell that to a lot of Republican gaf when they bother to rear their heads and they never have a response on it besides: "well, this is just a difference in opinion.". It's disgustingly immoral.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
No, it isn't. Again, where is this headlong descent down this slippery slope coming from? From your experience of hanging around faux-radical idiots in the past?
If precedent matters, why are you ignoring the precedent set in living history wherein nazi ideals were allowed into the highest reaches of government and people didn't stand against them?
This isn't radical far-left dogwhistling by your dumb friends. This isn't that.
A neo-nazi, given a platform by another neo-nazi, who has gone on record as suggesting the best way to "Make America Great Again" is to completely destabilize it first, was giving an interview during the inauguration of an illegitimate president helped by a hostile foreign government. He got punched in his face and turned into a meme.
People don't have a problem with that.
You are arguing that people's lack of a problem with this is the beginning of a steep decline towards an anarchist future wherein there are no laws/morals and unjustified actions rule the land. I'd suggest the problem is that our eagerness to equivocate on behalf of neo-nazis in the name of fairness has sped up a societal decline that's led to neo-nazis not only rising in America, but now having seats in the government at the right hand of our President.
I'll ask you the question I asked Chromatic:
Why is it that your fears turn to mob rule and vigilantism because people aren't upset a Nazi got punched in the face, while you seem relatively unafraid of the reality that the Nazi who was punched has friends advising our President? One of whom literally helped write his inauguration speech
Why are you more worried about mistreatment of Nazis leading to (not at all plausible) potential anarchy than you are NAZIS IN THE HIGHEST REACHES OF AMERICAN GOVERNMENT?
Why are your priorities thus?
Lightning_Roller
Banned
I learned quickly that the opinions of republican GAF ain't worth listening to when they show they don't give a damn about others.
7DollarHagane
Banned
Human life should be held to a different standard than animal life. This is common sense. Most have no moral issue with killing an adult chicken to eat, so an egg is no different.
It is women's right to do what they want, I never argued against that. My point is simply saying that abortion is ending a human life.
America's insistence about their "freedom of speech" rights is a big part of the problem. There is nothing wrong with having hate speech laws. It is handled properly in a lot of countries and it doesn't lead to the concerns about slippery slope censorship.
It amazes me that so many Americans insist that preventing hate speech is un-American. Go ahead and let hate rule as you watch your country go down the toilet.
It amazes me that so many Americans insist that preventing hate speech is un-American. Go ahead and let hate rule as you watch your country go down the toilet.
chromatic9
Member
If it's basic reality then we need to tear down the US brick by brick if Nazis are running it.
Again. How reliable is that information? I'm not in a position to launch an investigation.
I did answer it. I don't know the friends or the relationships of Spencer. I could look and read all the points and counter points and quickly form an opinion. If crimes have been committed then its the law. I could read online a Jihadist or Nazi is living next door, take it as a truth, go round and smash the guy only to find its false or he move last month. I'd rather telephone police.
I'm not worried at all about mistreatment of a Nazi. If any person wanting to commit genocide or planning to then they need to be dealt with.
You say the US government is in on it so that's the end of the road. Perhaps give your evidence to international authorities so we can shut down the rise of the Nazis in the US. We shut the Nazis down before and we'll do it again where ever it is.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
This was a punch in the face to nazi ideology and white supremacy, the punch absolutely matters. Punching nazis is quite literally one of the most American things a person could ever do.
TumblingHippo
Member
Sadly, I feel like we haven't seen nothing yet. People championed the Japanese internment camps
in 2016
I wouldn't be surprised there's a good chunk of membership on this board that secretly, or not so secretly, would support Muslim registration (and camps), would support women getting less money/respect, consider BLM a hate group, and are fine with lgbt having less rights.
These are not people to be debated. These are people to be shown the door and shunned.
Since you can't punch them in the face through a message board.
But imagine a society where nazis aren't free to voice their opinions without threat of physical violence!
Sounds like fucking paradise.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/21/...=WhatsNext&contentID=WhatsNext&pgtype=article
Looks like punching Nazis does, in fact, work.
Looks like punching Nazis does, in fact, work.
7DollarHagane
Banned
I think you can tell someone they are wrong all day and all night. But you can't tell them they must agree with you or be silent.
I do think sometimes people overestimate how much "hate" there is in America as a whole. The anti Trump rallies and women's rights march had huge numbers. There are a majority of people who are good and decent. And a very small, tiny minority that are actually hateful. I was reading that the modern KKK membership is around 8,000 people. Even 100,000 retweets of some racist nonsense is a tiny drop of a minority of the whole country.
Would it be unfair to say fuck your First Amendment and its particulars?
The allowing of hate speech under that has let this fucking alt-right and Trump come to prominence. Especially because it isn't absolute despite how much the word "freedom" is applied. You can't say "Fire!" in a theatre. You can't directly incite violence against someone (a line Trump skirted at his rallies). But you can say that God hates fags and call anyone subhuman, and nobody can say that isn't allowed.
Canada did not allow the Westboro Baptist Church into the country for a protest at a certain point. Because fuck the WBC.
That whole "I don't agree with what you're saying, but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it" is, itself, a load of shit after a point. What if you were Jewish and told to defend Spencer against protests? Against a man who denies your right to exist? Nah, fuck that. Hate speech should not be allowed.
If your words suggest that others should have less rights than you, fuck yourself and fuck those words coming out of your mouth, because they do not deserve constitutional protection.
The allowing of hate speech under that has let this fucking alt-right and Trump come to prominence. Especially because it isn't absolute despite how much the word "freedom" is applied. You can't say "Fire!" in a theatre. You can't directly incite violence against someone (a line Trump skirted at his rallies). But you can say that God hates fags and call anyone subhuman, and nobody can say that isn't allowed.
Canada did not allow the Westboro Baptist Church into the country for a protest at a certain point. Because fuck the WBC.
That whole "I don't agree with what you're saying, but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it" is, itself, a load of shit after a point. What if you were Jewish and told to defend Spencer against protests? Against a man who denies your right to exist? Nah, fuck that. Hate speech should not be allowed.
If your words suggest that others should have less rights than you, fuck yourself and fuck those words coming out of your mouth, because they do not deserve constitutional protection.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/21/...=WhatsNext&contentID=WhatsNext&pgtype=article
Looks like punching Nazis does, in fact, work.
Good. Let him be afraid to ever leave his home.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Thereitis.gif, added to the OP.https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/21/...=WhatsNext&contentID=WhatsNext&pgtype=article
Looks like punching Nazis does, in fact, work.
Basically. Literally nothing of value is lost unless you hold the emboldenment and empowerment of bigotry to be something worth fighting for.
David H Wong
Banned
But all of the arguments in favor of him getting punched also work in favor of him getting shot in the head. Hey, Indiana Jones shot Nazis, too! We killed lots of Nazis during the war! Why not kill this guy?
Because even Nazi war criminals got trials, Nazi POWs were treated humanely under the law. Because we're the good guys.
If you think expressing Nazi ideas should result in physical harm, then let's have that debate, let's write it into law, have the police enforce it and let's give the perpetrators due process. Terrorists have rights, serial killers have rights, Nazis have rights. Because we're the good guys.
It would be much more satisfying to let vigilante justice take care of the monsters every time. But there's a reason we don't do that and the bigger the monster, the more important those rules become. We wouldn't need rules protecting freedom of expression if all expression were kind and popular. We created those rules specifically to protect people whose speech would otherwise get them punched.
You can point out that you can't yell 'fire' in a crowded theater, and I would say right, because that's against the law. We've decided, as a civilization, that kind of speech shouldn't be protected. If we're going to decide the same thing here, fine, put it to a vote, get it in writing, so that the punishment is carried out consistently and fairly. But don't leave it to whatever punch-happy person happens to be nearby.
But any reply of, "Why sympathize with a Nazi?" is a dishonest Straw Man argument, and you know it. Demanding due process and fair trials isn't sympathizing with criminals - remaining civilized in the face of monsters is the foundation of everything good about the world.
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