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considering opposition to feminism, black lives matter, LBGT rights, as just differen

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well, it is just a different opinion

is the problem that saying "just a different opinion" means that the person is being dismissive and playing down the impact of the subject?
I think the problem is most think that all opinions should be respected. In this case they obviously shouldn't be. It's a half-hearted defense by those with terrible ideas, similar to "if you're so tolerant, why can't you tolerate what I'm saying?"
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
well, it is just a different opinion

is the problem that saying "just a different opinion" means that the person is being dismissive and playing down the impact of the subject?
It's not a difference of opinion considering that we're talking about the rights and lives of anyone who isn't a straight white male.

"Black lives are treated as disposable via the systemic racism that is ingrained in our society where even the most benign action can be put a black life at risk, stop killing us for no reason, treats us as normal equal human beings."

Putting the word "i disagree" before any of the facts in the above doesn't make an opinion. One of the most basic things taught in middle school is that you can't disagree with facts. AND don't even get me started on the fact that these moderates consider those as completely respectable opinions that should be respected and heard no matter what. Excuse me but i'm not about to entertain an debate about whether my rights should actually be equal because of my skin color, that jews should be euthanized, that women should be treated as equals to men, etc. those are not equal opinions and they need to be silenced as much as possible. Literally NOTHING of value would be lost.
 
My life not having equitable value is not somebody's opinion. It's nothing but hatred veiled behind ignorance and stupidity.

Our right to fucking live is not an opinion.
 

daviyoung

Banned
It's not a difference of opinion considering that we're talking about the rights and lives of anyone who isn't a straight white male.

"Black lives are treated as disposable via the systemic racism that is ingrained in our society where even the most benign action can be put a black life at risk, stop killing us for no reason, treats us as normal equal human beings."

Putting the word "i disagree" before any of the facts in the above doesn't make an opinion. One of the most basic things taught in middle school is that you can't disagree with facts. AND don't even get me started on the fact that these moderates consider those as completely respectable opinions that should be respected and heard no matter what. Excuse me but i'm not about to entertain an debate about whether my rights should actually be equal because of my skin color, that jews should be euthanized, that women should be treated as equals to men, etc. those are not equal opinions and they need to be silenced as much as possible. Literally NOTHING of value would be lost.

yeh, you're arguing with a denier there if they think they can disagree with facts
 

Ms.Galaxy

Member
Man, that Nazi Punch thread really ticked me off, the fact that so many literally defended a Nazi because he just has an opinion and saying that talking to them and fighting them with words was the true way to stop Nazism.

It's so incredibility naive to think that. As I said before in that thread, You. Cannot. Reason. With. Fascists. There is no debates or arguments to be have with people who believe that anyone that doesn't match their "master race" is less than a cockroach and deserves to be exterminated.
 
To be fair, is it not true that the "white majority" will become a minority in a decade or two? At that point would it be okay to have special interest group?
 

The Kree

Banned
EDIT:The title should be:considering opposition to feminism, black lives matter, LBGT rights, as just different opinions.

More and more I see this happening where people are considering even straight up nazism as "just a difference of opinion." I say absolutely fuck that noise.

Opposing the rights of POC, women, LBGT, and everyone else who gets shafted in America on a daily basis dude to systemic injustice isn't just a different opinion. Considering it to be just as simple as a difference of opinion normalizes and emboldens those views. Giving the opposition of basic human rights a platform normalizes and emboldens those who see me as inferior based on my color.

Another big issue I see cropping up in threads is the idea that doing anything but the quietest and most peaceful protests is "wrong" and that it only emboldens white supremacy. Addressed here in this post:



This mentality doesn't help in any given situation and CERTAINLY never helps discussion where the rights of others are concerned.

These people who dismiss proponents of fascism, ethnic cleansing, and any other form of violent bigotry as "people with mere differences of opinion" are one of two things in my view: pussies who are too afraid to get caught in a fight or traitors to humanity. These are not valid stances worth hearing out.

The Sons of Liberty destroyed private property and tarred and feathered politicians in protest of taxation by a foreign government in which they had no voice.

The world dropped bombs on Nazis in World War II. The ones we took alive were either jailed or later hanged.

The violence of the Stonewall riots were directly responsible for the advancement of LGBT rights including the spread of marriage equality in the US.

These people who think nonviolence is the only way forward, when they're sincere, are incredibly naive and ignorant of human history. They have this ideal world built up in their heads where the real big problems can be hashed out solely through thoughtful discussion. We don't live in that world yet. The reason LGBT people can be part of the conversation today is because yesterday they proved that you'll get physically fucked up if you don't listen to them. We're still in a place where you bow down to the guy with the bigger stick or the guys who's willing to fight dirty when you close off clean avenues. That's how we prevent our enemies from building nukes while we keep them stockpiled. It goes down the way it goes down because we say so.

Then there's these other people who I call snakes in the grass. They pretend to be progressive just to get a seat at our table. Once they're there, they begin planting seeds of dissension. They employ a divide and conquer strategy by making us argue not about who's right, but who's more right. They get us to fight over trans people in public bathrooms and gay wedding cakes while they make plans to take Supreme Court Seats. They distract us with purity tests while they engage in voter suppression and intimidation. They make false equivalences in our respective behavioral patterns while we endlessly debate the origins and meanings of words.

It's sometimes very difficult to discern who's being sincere and who's an outright traitor, but I know that I have a lot of animosity towards both kinds of people, because in spite of all the historic precedent we have at our disposal to examine, they don't see the big picture.

Just taking a look at America, I see a clear pattern in our history with respect to civil rights. Women fought for the right to vote - half the population. Africans fought to end slavery - 15% of the population. LGBT people achieve marriage equality - 5-10% of the population. Each oppressed group at the forefront of civil rights struggles from era to era gets smaller than the one before it. That tells me that we're on the right path and we're getting better. And we get better because we're willing to bleed for it. We don't die for differences of opinions, we die to prove that we deserve to live.

I don't ask everybody to grab a gun and go to war against fascism, I don't ask everybody to go punch white supremacists on the street. I just ask that you don't chastise anybody who's willing to get dirty because you sound like an ignorant asshole at best, and if you're defending the enemies of humanity, that makes you one of them. You're not being thoughtful, you're just in the way.

We know how humanity works, we know what difficult people really respond to. We are now faced with an enemy who dismisses any information they dislike as fake news regardless of it's actual authenticity. We are constantly encouraged to consider the feelings of people who refuse demonstrate any willingness to reciprocate. It is constantly demanded of us that we reach out to people who look at us like lepers, and they ask us to build bridges to places where we're not wanted. Sometimes it feels like you've run out of options with these people. Sometimes your enemy simply can't be talked to. Sometimes your enemy simply has to be put down just so that you can survive. Sometimes you have to be an asshole to beat a bigger asshole. That's the reality we still live in. If you don't wanna talk, and you don't wanna be reasonable, and you don't wanna catch these hands, just stay the fuck out the way because we're moving forward with or without you.
 
OP title could have been worded better. I'm for equal rights among everyone, but feminism has become less about equality and more about man-hating. Only 7% of people in the UK say they're feminist but around 80% say they're for equality in the sexes.

Same with BLM, I don't support what the group is doing in burning their own cities down and destroying business cause that's not going to help anyone, but I think somewhere buried in there is a good message and that's what I support.
 
I just watched that dudes interview with Al Jazeera. I wish he caught more than 1 hand. What the fuck is that bullshit? Peeople defending that guys ideas need to go away. That is the very definition of suporting racism.
OP title could have been worded better. I'm for equal rights among everyone, but feminism has become less about equality and more about man-hating. Only 7% of people in the UK say they're feminist but around 80% say they're for equality in the sexes.

Same with BLM, I don't support what the group is doing in burning their own cities down and destroying business cause that's not going to help anyone, but I somewhere buried in there is a good message and that's what I support.

Man what is this shit?
 

Valhelm

contribute something
well, it is just a different opinion

is the problem that saying "just a different opinion" means that the person is being dismissive and playing down the impact of the subject?

Believing that black people do not deserve equal protection, freedom, and happiness might be an opinion, but it's a godawful one with horrible ramifications to millions of people. Moderate liberal handwringing over the "right to have an opinion" directly enables white nationalists and other bigots, by encouraging their voices to be broadcast unchallenged.

Ms. Galaxy is correct. It's futile to debate with people who want to oppress, deport, or massacre tens of millions of people for being the wrong race. Defending Richard Spencer against the mean ol' leftist who punched him plays right into the white nationalist victim complex and suggests that literal Nazis should feel free to express their views.
 
If you're arguing the opinion deserving to be heard equally and fairly as any other, is an opinion that allows for genocide, then you're in the wrong.

You just are.

"Punching people who disagree isn't the answer"

Sure. In a vaccuum, that response sounds good. Makes sense. Probably applies to 99% of any opinion you can think of. "Cake is better than pie" is not a punchable opinion. "Die Hard is the best Christmas movie ever made" doesn't deserve a sock. Even stuff like "Gerrymandering is a viable political strategy" probably shouldn't get you a fist to the chin (even though it's horseshit)

And while my personal predilection is to not hit people in their face for saying reprehensible things, I'm not going to wring my hands at the appropriateness of a seig-heiling, anti-semitic neo-nazi fop getting his jaw shoved sideways in response to an entire life spent advocating for a worldview that promotes genocide.

Like I told Wong in the last thread: The Devils have taken the white house. We don't need anymore volunteered advocacy on their behalf.
 
To be fair, is it not true that the "white majority" will become a minority in a decade or two? At that point would it be okay to have special interest group?

Minorities don't just have special interest groups because of the fact that they are minorities. They have such groups because of the concerted efforts by the majority in power to reduce/strip their rights alongside efforts to exclude them from community with the majority.
 

Chmpocalypse

Blizzard
OP title could have been worded better. I'm for equal rights among everyone, but feminism has become less about equality and more about man-hating. Only 7% of people in the UK say they're feminist but around 80% say they're for equality in the sexes.

Same with BLM, I don't support what the group is doing in burning their own cities down and destroying business cause that's not going to help anyone, but I think somewhere buried in there is a good message and that's what I support.

Total fucking bullshit. You don't understand BLM or feminism at all if you think this childish, simplistic reductionism in any way applies.

Get the fuck out of here with your idiocy.
 
To those who support violence against Nazis and others with reprerehensible views, where do you draw the line?

Should the attacker be protected under the law for the assault?

Would you be okay with the Nazi being brutally beaten or killed?
 

Deepwater

Member
OP title could have been worded better. I'm for equal rights among everyone, but feminism has become less about equality and more about man-hating. Only 7% of people in the UK say they're feminist but around 80% say they're for equality in the sexes.

Same with BLM, I don't support what the group is doing in burning their own cities down and destroying business cause that's not going to help anyone, but I think somewhere buried in there is a good message and that's what I support.

What cities were burned down?
 
When playing devil's advocate goes wrong. If forums showed me one thing it's that it's not about what's right or wrong it's about arguing and trying desperately to win.
 
OP title could have been worded better. I'm for equal rights among everyone, but feminism has become less about equality and more about man-hating. Only 7% of people in the UK say they're feminist but around 80% say they're for equality in the sexes.

Same with BLM, I don't support what the group is doing in burning their own cities down and destroying business cause that's not going to help anyone, but I think somewhere buried in there is a good message and that's what I support.

From where exactly did you get this idea that feminism is about man hating? Link an article or two.

Likewise, where did you read about BLM as a movement whose goal is to burn down cities? Would you care to precisely articulate the 'good message' buried deep within it that you agree with?
 

Ogodei

Member
I like the Karl Popper quote:
If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.

The key is that tolerance is a peace treaty, not a suicide pact. We understand that there are elements of society who see each other as fundamentally opposed, but we agree to live in peace so long as the actions of one group or another do not become completely unconscionable.

We "tolerate" the Klan and the new Fascists when they're just spewing shit on twitter and marching and doing other stuff. Society does not, at large, tolerate them when they cross the line and begin to actively infringe upon the rights of others, then they are arrested or, if they refuse to be taken into custody, shot. This same tolerance is extended to everybody in a moral vacuum where we assume that no idea, other than those enshrined in law, has value greater than any other idea.

Of course, not all ideas are created equal. No country likes going to war, but they go to war when the conditions of peace become, in their view, unacceptable. Tolerance is the same way. If the presence of a group who is acting peacefully is still creating an unsustainable or an unjust peace, then they lose the shield of tolerance. Then the question just becomes what actions against them are justifiable and what actions are not justifiable. The war parallel is again apt. Take the Noriega Conflict against Panama, for instance. Most people thought the war was justifiable because Noriega was a total shitheel, but the war would've become unjustifiable if Bush had nuked Panama City or salted the earth of the Panamanian farms in retaliation. Disproportionate response is a thing, and even the worst among us have their fundamental human rights.

But peaceful belief of anything you want is not a human right. Beliefs designed to foster hate are different than beliefs that are not so designed.
 
OP title could have been worded better. I'm for equal rights among everyone, but feminism has become less about equality and more about man-hating. Only 7% of people in the UK say they're feminist but around 80% say they're for equality in the sexes.

Same with BLM, I don't support what the group is doing in burning their own cities down and destroying business cause that's not going to help anyone, but I think somewhere buried in there is a good message and that's what I support.
What the fuck. Where did you read this Junk? As a feminist myself I never express any man-hating. What I want is my given rights to stay that way.

About BLM clearly you haven't seen the work they do behind the scenes working with their community and on a national lvl. The fact that you think they advocate for riots is hilarious.
 
Same with BLM, I don't support what the group is doing in burning their own cities down and destroying business cause that's not going to help anyone, but I think somewhere buried in there is a good message and that's what I support.
Republican groups pay rioters to cause property damage and commit felonies http://www.dailykos.com/stories/201...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

And Tea Partiers also committed crimes during their protests http://dailysignal.com/2011/10/25/over-2400-tea-partiers-arrested/

So property damage is going to happen no matter what stop pinning the groups for it
 

LionPride

Banned
OP title could have been worded better. I'm for equal rights among everyone, but feminism has become less about equality and more about man-hating. Only 7% of people in the UK say they're feminist but around 80% say they're for equality in the sexes.

Same with BLM, I don't support what the group is doing in burning their own cities down and destroying business cause that's not going to help anyone, but I think somewhere buried in there is a good message and that's what I support.
...it's so funny watching people who don't know what they are saying say dumb bullshit ya know.
 
To those who support violence against Nazis and others with reprerehensible views, where do you draw the line?

Should the attacker be protected under the law for the assault?

Would you be okay with the Nazi being brutally beaten or killed?

I mean, thats what we did to the Nazis in WWII and it stamped them out as a major force for a good 70 years. Do you want to wait until this new brand of Nazism starts causing real damage before we retaliate?

Nazis are scum. Theyre trash. And the trash has to be taken out, no?
 

Zophar

Member
Yep, fuck fascists, fuck any racists and diet racist complicit nazis that go along with this. I'm keeping names, too - no forgiveness from me, not ever.

Fascism is not to be debated - it's to be crushed.
 
From where exactly did you get this idea that feminism is about man hating? Link an article or two.

Likewise, where did you read about BLM as a movement whose goal is to burn down cities? Would you care to precisely articulate the 'good message' buried deep within it that you agree with?

"Only 7 per cent of Britons consider themselves feminists"

If femenism = equal rights, why is there such a gap between people who identify as feminist and people who support womens rights?

And I didn't say BLM's "goal" was to burn cities, that's just how they "protest" if you can call it that.

What the fuck. Where did you read this Junk? As a feminist myself I never express any man-hating. What I want is my given rights to stay that way.

About BLM clearly you haven't seen the work they do behind the scenes working with their community and on a national lvl. The fact that you think they advocate for riots is hilarious.
DeRay Mckesson: All Actions of Black Lives Matter Rioters Are Justified
 
Should the attacker be protected under the law for the assault?

Would you be okay with the Nazi being brutally beaten or killed?

Is anyone arguing for that, though? In either this thread or the last one, have you seen anyone suggest Richard Spencer shoulda been killed?

Richard Spencer should not have been summarily shot on sight. He shouldn't have had limbs removed, or broken. The person who assaulted him would probably have taken the rap, just like many protesters end up taking their arrests and getting their mugshots.

Why wouldn't it be obvious where the line is drawn? What is it about this particular act of violence that has people so shook that they're now questioning whether anti-nazi sentiment can be properly contained so as to prevent the total downfall of civil society at the hands of wild, out-of-control anti-fascists gleefully taking to the streets and maiming/disabling anyone who might harbor sexist/racist/misogynist sentiments?

The line is drawn where it is for most philosophical disagreements that lead to brief fisticuffs in the heat of the moment: A couple punches and then disengagement. And even then, only in fairly extreme instances, such as the one that sparked this weird handwringing in the first place, regarding a man who is literally a neo-nazi, and publicly demonstrated as such.

Again: The devils are in the white house now. This sort of volunteer advocacy for them isn't the sort of clear-eyed helpful thought exercise people like to think it is. This shit isn't happening in a vaccuum, and the hypotheticals being entertained (society pulled down by rabid left-wingers who decide to punch out all their problems because they can't handle Nazis correctly) are ridiculous.
 
To those who support violence against Nazis and others with reprerehensible views, where do you draw the line?

Should the attacker be protected under the law for the assault?

Would you be okay with the Nazi being brutally beaten or killed?
You draw the line at Nazis and others with reprehensible views. And of course I'm okay with someone beating up a Nazi.

They're protected by the law but I think a lot of us would be okay with spending a night or two in jail because you broke a Nazi's jaw.
 

Zophar

Member
"Only 7 per cent of Britons consider themselves feminists"

If femenism = equal rights, why is there such a gap between people who identify as feminist and people who support womens rights?

And I didn't say BLM's "goal" was to burn cities, that's just how they "protest" if you can call it that.

Nah dude. Consider the fact that massively ignorant narratives like these are widely perpetuated and accepted. When shit like this is true (https://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2012/jan/25/dailymail-internet) what argument can you really make linking your perception of ideologies with their actual practices?

Also, FYI: this is the kind of diet fascism that we aren't going to let slide.
 
OP title could have been worded better. I'm for equal rights among everyone, but feminism has become less about equality and more about man-hating. Only 7% of people in the UK say they're feminist but around 80% say they're for equality in the sexes.

Same with BLM, I don't support what the group is doing in burning their own cities down and destroying business cause that's not going to help anyone, but I think somewhere buried in there is a good message and that's what I support.

Can we get some receipts for those claims?

Edit: Oh jeez, The Daily Wire and DeRay
 

necrosis

Member
OP title could have been worded better. I'm for equal rights among everyone, but feminism has become less about equality and more about man-hating. Only 7% of people in the UK say they're feminist but around 80% say they're for equality in the sexes.

Same with BLM, I don't support what the group is doing in burning their own cities down and destroying business cause that's not going to help anyone, but I think somewhere buried in there is a good message and that's what I support.

thanks for this fucking garbage, milo
 

MUnited83

For you.
OP title could have been worded better. I'm for equal rights among everyone, but feminism has become less about equality and more about man-hating. Only 7% of people in the UK say they're feminist but around 80% say they're for equality in the sexes.

Same with BLM, I don't support what the group is doing in burning their own cities down and destroying business cause that's not going to help anyone, but I think somewhere buried in there is a good message and that's what I support.

I advise you to stop visiting Breitbard and /The_Donald for your intake of news.
 

The Kree

Banned
OP title could have been worded better. I'm for equal rights among everyone, but feminism has become less about equality and more about man-hating. Only 7% of people in the UK say they're feminist but around 80% say they're for equality in the sexes.

Same with BLM, I don't support what the group is doing in burning their own cities down and destroying business cause that's not going to help anyone, but I think somewhere buried in there is a good message and that's what I support.

I don't feel like feminists hate me. Maybe because I am one. I dunno, have you actually tried out feminism for yourself? You might like it.

And do you seriously think think a few people lashing out in violence against violence perpetrated against them somehow invalidates their argument against inhumane treatment? Which do you think came first, the treatment or the behavior?
 

LionPride

Banned
"Only 7 per cent of Britons consider themselves feminists"

If femenism = equal rights, why is there such a gap between people who identify as feminist and people who support womens rights?

And I didn't say BLM's "goal" was to burn cities, that's just how they "protest" if you can call it that.


DeRay Mckesson: All Actions of Black Lives Matter Rioters Are Justified
You do realize that the only times burning happened was post Fergurson and post Baltimore right? And most ifthat wasn't by outward supporters of BLM. Who were trying to keep it peaceful until a militarized police force came out. And read the article you posted. Should probably do that.
 
To be fair, is it not true that the "white majority" will become a minority in a decade or two? At that point would it be okay to have special interest group?

White people in South Africa were about five percent of the population for much of apartheid.

My point is that even once white people are a numerical minority, it is likely that they will wield the majority of political power and social capital anyway. It would probably be unnecessary at that point.

Or, to look at it another way, men are a minority, gender-wise, but MRA groups are generally a joke and pretty much unnecessary.
 

Special C

Member
Sorry people, abortion is a real topic worth arguing. We are talking about a fundamental argument on the basis of human life. It's just common sense to treat all people equally, but abortion isn't that simple.
 
It seems like the reality is that everybody's rights are up for debate. I mean, even our fucking "Bill of Rights" doesn't mean shit in practice.

You got to fight to get yours in whatever way you can or others will climb over you.
 
"Only 7 per cent of Britons consider themselves feminists"

If femenism = equal rights, why is there such a gap between people who identify as feminist and people who support womens rights?

And I didn't say BLM's "goal" was to burn cities, that's just how they "protest" if you can call it that.


DeRay Mckesson: All Actions of Black Lives Matter Rioters Are Justified
"I think America must see that riots do not develop out of thin air. Certain conditions continue to exist in our society which must be condemned as vigorously as we condemn riots. But in the final analysis, a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality, and humanity. And so in a real sense our nation’s summers of riots are caused by our nation’s winters of delay. And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. Social justice and progress are the absolute guarantors of riot prevention."-Martin Luther King Jr.
 

Nepenthe

Member
To be fair, is it not true that the "white majority" will become a minority in a decade or two? At that point would it be okay to have special interest group?

They will become a minority-majority. They will technically have fewer numbers than all ethnic minorities combined (assuming they don't bring white Hispanics into the fold to boost numbers a la other European groups), but this won't serve to immediately accompany an equivalent decrease in political, social, and economic power. After all, there are slightly more women than there are men in the world, but I don't think anyone would use this as an argument that misandry is a bigger issue than misogyny. xP
 
OP title could have been worded better. I'm for equal rights among everyone, but feminism has become less about equality and more about man-hating. Only 7% of people in the UK say they're feminist but around 80% say they're for equality in the sexes.

Same with BLM, I don't support what the group is doing in burning their own cities down and destroying business cause that's not going to help anyone, but I think somewhere buried in there is a good message and that's what I support.

1. Wrong about feminism and what it stands for.

2. Wrong about BLM. They have always advocated peaceful protests and have not encouraged violence/looting.
 
"Only 7 per cent of Britons consider themselves feminists"

If femenism = equal rights, why is there such a gap between people who identify as feminist and people who support womens rights?

Because feminism is a concept that requires research and understanding of philosophy, sociology and social sciences as a whole. Where as supporting equal rights is about as easy as saying, "yeah I think we should treat everyone the same"? It's not difficult to understand this. Where and how do you come into contact with the principles of feminism in everyday life if you don't study it in post secondary education?

And I didn't say BLM's "goal" was to burn cities, that's just how they "protest" if you can call it that.

Over and over again you can see BLM protesting peacefully and setting up events for the progression of the movement. The fact that you have people who just wanna fuck shit up does not mean all the peaceful protest and other community activity the group does is invalidated. Please fucking go away with that fallacy.



If you wanna do this you aren't going to win because any of us can out link you to people saying dumb bullshit about anything. Who cares what a few fringe people say in the face of overwhelming evidence a movement has nothing but peaceful intention.
 

Buzzman

Banned
The issue with nazis and violence is a big one. Even here we've got one person saying a punch is okay, but no further. And then the next post calls for breaking a jaw.

Personally I probably fall on the more extreme end of this, but even so there's the fact that if you condone any kind of violence against these people it's going to escalate. I can accept that. But the people who only tolerate a punch, should know what they're getting into.
 
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