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Are certain (realistic) skin colors ever jarring for you in fantasy settings?

I saw the sentiment that non-white playable characters in The Order: 1886 would be jarring, yet werewolves and fantasy weapons in the setting (inspired by Victorian London) were okay. This notion pops up occasionally here and I wanted to hear what people thought.

I find it fucking ridiculous seeing people go to such lengths to "prove" why characters' apparent nationalities/skin colors would be out of place while also dismissing all other ridiculous, out of place aspects. Reminds me of seeing people here say jetpacks should never be in GTAV because of the game's realistic tone, yet you can still steal a fighter jet from a military base and park it in front of Franklin's home. Seems like anytime the possibility of having some kind of diversity is mentioned, those people hear it as ordering devs to have diversity in their games.
 

TAJ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
I think that more people dislike or are even offended by diversity in AAA games than are asking for it.
Just look at the shitstorm over GTA San Andreas having a black player character.
Or look at the comments section of any Assassin's Creed Freedom Cry video and check out all the people saying the game is racist because you're killing white people. (How dare they show slavers in a negative light!) And that's the least offensive problem I've heard people have with it.

Some are looking for any excuse to complain because they're afraid to say why it's really bothering them.
 

DeSolos

Member
I think in the example given of The Order, it really depends on historical context. I think it's absolutely possible in that game, but given that there is at least a partially historical setting it needs to be believable in that context.

In pure fantasy games like Dragon Age for example I think it makes perfect sense for there to be races of any kind. It's a purely fictional world, why limit the pallet you work with?

I think Elder Scrolls handled it very well as race was generally tied to what region the character was from which makes perfect sense for a medieval setting that isn't as interconnected as the world we live in.

Ultimately I think it can be done as long as it is with respect to the context of the story.
 
I think that more people dislike or are even offended by diversity in AAA games than are asking for it.
Just look at the shitstorm over GTA San Andreas having a black player character.
Or look at the comments section of any Assassin's Creed Freedom Cry video and check out all the people saying the game is racist because you're killing white people. (How dare they show slavers in a negative light!) And that's the least offensive problem I've heard people have with it.
That's youtube though... fucking full of racist and elitest assholes.
 

Giever

Member
Suspension of disbelief is a strange thing. People are perfectly happy to watch a movie or show with crazy alien characters and totally made up physics, but little things like "are we really supposed to believe that Captain Whoever didn't think to check that air duct!?!" can throw people off.

I think it's unfair to just assume that people who are thrown off by certain things like you described are doing it just as a hidden way to defend from minorities appearing in their white-people filled games.

Some of it could be that, from some people, but I don't think all of it is. And I don't think it's 'unreasonable' to feel certain ways about what feels natural to believe, and what doesn't. It just differs from person to person. It depends on how you buy into the premises of certain situations.

EDIT: I mean, you yourself gave an example of this:

Reminds me of seeing people here say jetpacks should never be in GTAV because of the game's realistic tone, yet you can still steal a fighter jet from a military base and park it in front of Franklin's home.

Sometimes people just find certain things within the realm of believability, while other things aren't. I'm sure I could explain it better once I think about it more. But the mere fact that you acknowledge that people get this way about non-racial inclusions means that you have to at least somewhat acknowledge that people could just legitimately find it odd for certain races to show up in a game like the order, which is obviously going for a certain time period/setting/aesthetic.
 

Lime

Member
People go to great lengths to rationalize any excuse that won't disturb their safe and sound worldview so they make the most illogical excuses to combat any criticism aimed at the current status quo. I'm reminded of this beautiful quote in a letter from a father to his nephew in the 60's USA:

Many of them indeed know better, but as you will discover, people find it very difficult to act on what they know. To act is to be committed and to be committed is to be in danger. In this case the danger in the minds and hearts of most white Americans is the loss of their identity. Try to imagine how you would feel if you woke up one morning to find the sun shivering and all the stars aflame. You would be frightened because it is out of the order of nature. Any upheaval in the universe is terrifying because it so profoundly attacks one's sense of one's own reality. Well, the black man has functioned in the white man's world as a fixed star, as an immovable pillar, and as he moves out of his place, heaven and earth are shaken to their foundations

What you are experiencing is a minor version or instance of this defense mechanism. The usual arguments to defend the status quo take various forms, such as:

  • "This Youtube video or article is censorship!"
  • "The free market is fair and just"
  • "If non-White people want more representation, why don't they just make games themselves?"
  • "I am not a racist for liking this game that is being criticized!"
  • "The developer's artistic vision should never be criticized!"
  • "But white men have it tough too!"
  • "But what about world hunger?"
  • "Games aren't appealing to non-White people because they don't play video games as much as White people"
  • "If you don't like it, (shut up) don't buy it!"
  • "White men can't relate to other people different from themselves so they don't buy such games"
  • "You're the real racist for pointing out that the majority of characters in video games are White"
 

TAJ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
That's youtube though... fucking full of racist and elitest assholes.

Not just YouTube. But YouTube is a pretty good sample, sadly, certainly far more representative than GAF.
Speaking of GAF, though... there's a reason I thought of San Andreas first.
 

Forkball

Member
It depends on how the world is set up. If it clearly establishes that werewolves and vampires are the norm, along with historical conventions, then yes it would be weird if a Korean guy randomly popped up in The Order. But if they already established that Korea was taken over by goblins and many immigrated to England, then people wouldn't bat an eye. In fantasy, you can get away with anything as long as you kinda sorta explain it.
 

MormaPope

Banned
I saw the sentiment that non-white playable characters in The Order: 1886 would be jarring, yet werewolves and fantasy weapons in the setting (inspired by Victorian London) were okay. This notion pops up occasionally here and I wanted to hear what people thought.

I find it fucking ridiculous seeing people go to such lengths to "prove" why characters' apparent nationalities/skin colors would be out of place while also dismissing all other ridiculous, out of place aspects. Reminds me of seeing people here say jetpacks should never be in GTAV because of the game's realistic tone, yet you can still steal a fighter jet from a military base and park it in front of Franklin's home. Seems like anytime the possibility of having some kind of diversity is mentioned, those people hear it as ordering devs to have diversity in their games.

I'd say those people are being overly defensive over The Order more than anything else.
 
I'd say those people are being overly defensive over The Order more than anything else.

That's probably because every thread about it seems to go to hell within the first few posts. With that said, I wouldn't care if there were characters of different races. It's not like the game is intended to be an accurate representation of that period.
 
I think that more people dislike or are even offended by diversity in AAA games than are asking for it.
Just look at the shitstorm over GTA San Andreas having a black player character.
Or look at the comments section of any Assassin's Creed Freedom Cry video and check out all the people saying the game is racist because you're killing white people. (How dare they show slavers in a negative light!) And that's the least offensive problem I've heard people have with it.

Some are looking for any excuse to complain because they're afraid to say why it's really bothering them.

yet San Andreas was the highest selling GTA (of it's time) by quite some margin. We may be looking at a case of a very vocal minority making things look worse than they actually are.
 

onQ123

Member
I think that more people dislike or are even offended by diversity in AAA games than are asking for it.
Just look at the shitstorm over GTA San Andreas having a black player character.
Or look at the comments section of any Assassin's Creed Freedom Cry video and check out all the people saying the game is racist because you're killing white people. (How dare they show slavers in a negative light!) And that's the least offensive problem I've heard people have with it.

Some are looking for any excuse to complain because they're afraid to say why it's really bothering them.

What shitstorm? San Andreas is one of the most beloved GTA games.
 

Afrodium

Banned
I just started Dragon Age: Inquisition, which has black characters interacting with the player somewhat often. At first I was kind of taken aback, as I wasn't expecting it. Immediately I realized how fucked up that was, and how I'm so conditioned to whitewashed fantasy settings that the sight of a black character being an equal part of a fantasy society was odd to me. So to answer the OP, I guess I have to say that alternative skin colors are jarring to me, but they absolutely shouldn't be and my involuntary reaction to non-white characters in these settings is a result of years of whites-only medieval fantasy settings.
 
yet San Andreas was the highest selling GTA (of it's time) by quite some margin. We may be looking at a case of a very vocal minority making things look worse than they actually are.

The worst thing I saw with GTASA came after its release when I saw some PC playthroughs where people had CJ reskinned so that he was white.
 
It was only jarring for me in a couple of early 3D JRPGs because Japanese developers seemed to think at the time you could only make a black character if they were the most stereotypical black person ever, or if they just took a Japanese dude and made his skin black.
 

UrbanRats

Member
To answer the title's question: No.

But i am ok if diversity (in the case of a fantasy setting) is inserted mimicking somewhat real world cultures.
For example: if in your medieval fantasy with dragons and mages, you depict most of the King Arthur looking folks as white, and most of the Salah al-Din looking folks, as Middle Eastern.
As long as you try to offer some diversity.

This as a rule of thumb, anyway.
 

Afrodium

Banned

Isn't The Order supposed to take place in Victorian England? I don't mean fantasy Victorian England, but Victorian England as we know it. I may be wrong, but I thought that the plot of the game was that werewolves and vampires and whatnot exist and always have, and that "The Order" is a secret society that fights these monsters throughout the ages. Because of this, the setting of The Order is Victorian England and it's therefore excusable that everything besides the monsters (which in the cannon of the game exist on the same planet that we live on) reflects the reality of that time. Alternatively, a game like Dishonored features a fantasy setting based on Victorian England but has the freedom to make any changes it wishes because it's not actually Victorian England. This is similar to most fantasy games (Dragon Age, Skyrim) in that they're based on Medieval Europe but aren't actually in Medoeval Europe and don't need to abide by racial divides that existed at the time.
 
"By Jove, I'll deal with this lycanthrope with my electroaccelerator cannon post haste and-wait, is that a Negroid man? Has someone opened a portal to the dark country of Africa?!"
 

Lime

Member
I think this is relevant for the thread. Some excerpts from an academic article by Dietrich back in 2012 on skin color options in MMOs and how it affects players' understanding of skin color:

Capabilities for avatar creation are analyzed in over sixty massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPGs) in service as of early 2010 and twenty offline role-playing games (RPGs) published over the past 10 years. The analysis shows that the vast majority of games, both online and offline, do not allow for the creation of avatars with a non-white racial appearance.
 
Specifically, I demonstrate the presence of systematic bias in terms of the racial capabilities in avatar creation by documenting how many games restrict or disallow the creation of avatars with a non-white racial appearance.
 
Such limitations force an Anglo appearance on avatars that has the potential to reinforce a sense of normative whiteness (Garner 2007; McWhorter 2005; Ward 2008) and contribute to a virtual “white habitus” (Bonilla-Silva 2010; Bonilla-Silva, Goar, and Embrick 2006).
 
As Harwood and Anderson(2002) argue, media representations not only reflect the conditions of society but maintain them as well. These virtual white spaces, therefore, have consequences for racialized interactions within the virtual space and the potential to reinforce the existing ideologies of whiteness outside the game (Larson 2006; Wilson, Gutierrez, and Chao 2003).
 
Whiteness studies demonstrate how whiteness is rendered “ default” or “ normal” within the context of contemporary racial ideology (Garner 2007; McWhorter 2005; Ward 2008). Whiteness itself loses any categorization as a “ race” ; it simply is. As Garner (2007: 37) states, “Treating whiteness as a nonracialized identity conceals racialized power relations and the ideas and practices that sustain them.” Whiteness becomes a universalizing category whereby whites are viewed as individuals while non-whites are viewed as parts of groups (Farough 2004)
 
Studies of minority representation in games have documented a similar “presence of absence.” Higgin (2009) and Williams et al. (2009) both noted a systematic underrepresentation of minorities, including racial minorities, among both MMORPGs and video games in general. Within interactive games, compared to passive media such as television, such presentations take on an additional dimension: when one plays a game, it becomes more than simply observing, but also participating.
 
LeValley (1997: 128– 129) writes, “However alien the virtual world may seem to those uninitiated into its peculiar physics, time sense, vocabulary and culture, the Dreamscape is in a very real
sense a microcosm of the waking world… [Virtual] community members construct social reality together, developing shared cultural meanings.” Indeed, Eastwick and Gardner (2009), in an examination of differences in social interaction among players in the virtual world There.com , found that dark-skinned avatars were treated more negatively in social interactions than light-skinned avatars. The fact that these avatars were not “ real” evidently did not stop anti-black prejudices from influencing player interactions. As Steinkuehler (2008: 612) states, “ Beneath the veneer of fantasy and seeming childishness, video games are sites for socially and materially distributed cognition, complex problem solving, identity work, individual and collaborative learning across multiple multimedia and multimodal ‘ attentional spaces’ , and rich meaning making.”
 
The other avatars in the game world are not merely semi-autonomous constructs of pixels and code but graphical representations of other players occupying the same spaces. In this case, the player character, or avatar, has the potential to become a virtual representation of the actual player.

Boellstorff (2008), in a study of Second Life, noted that players who attempted to find darker “ skins” (textures that can be applied to one’ s avatar to change skin tone and appearance)had difficulty finding them, and those who wore non-white skins reported racist responses. Similarly, Kafai, Fields, and Cook (2010), in an examination of Whyville , an online virtual world designed for children ages 8-16, documented criticism leveled at the creators of Whyville for making the default head color peach and not offering suffi cient non-peach-colored heads and bodies. In this context, I argue, the lack of minority representation becomes even more problematic in that interactions between avatars (that is, between two individual players) become racialized virtually due to the constraints of appearance and behavior imposed by the game itself on the player’ s avatar.
 
The most obvious consequences of this situation are that the vast majority of virtual worlds lack truly non-white (specifi cally black) characters; they simply cannot be made in those environments. It is one thing to live in a world where most white people live within a “ white habitus” sheltered from contact with racial and ethnic minorities, but it is quite another to explore, socialize, and play in a virtual world where one is not just isolated from non-whites, non-whites simply do not exist.
 
We know that popular culture is “both producer and product of social inequality” (Coltrane and Messineo 2000), but the advent of MMORPGs adds another element beyond the passive traditional media, one whose impact is not yet fully understood: interactivity. How will people be influenced by interacting in online environments devoid of racial minorities? Will minorities be less likely to join these environments if unable to create avatars that represent themselves? These are but a few of the questions that the results of this study bring to mind.
 
For whites, these worlds reinforce the existing themes of normative whiteness by presenting a world that is all white in a way that appears to be natural and unquestioned. For minority players, the message communicated is that there is no place for you in these worlds. To participate, minority players must create a white-looking character, in essence “ passing” for white in a virtual sense (Nakamura and Wirman 2005). Minorities learn that to participate in these virtual worlds, they must “ become” white, an attitude that reflects the privileged position of white Western culture in contemporary society (Rains 1998) but influences how these individuals may act outside of these virtual worlds as well.
 
I hypothesize that the lack of minority representation would push the player to interpret these worlds as backstage settings, allowing for more explicit and blatant expression
of racism. Given the widespread appeal of these games, with millions of players logging countless hours online, this has troubling implications for the perpetuation of racism, possibly making such blatant racist speech more normative.
 
Rather, the patterns of restrictions on character creation seem to constitute omissions based upon the unquestioned standards of normative whiteness. Non-white alternatives were seemingly never considered. While this does not suggest racist intent, it should serve as a red flag for both the video game industry and for society at large that creating these “whitewashed” virtual worlds could have very real and substantial impacts on racial interaction both online and off.
 

Mr. X

Member
It sucks that non-whites aren't "allowed" to be in certain time periods and fantasy settings in fictional work because suspension of disbelief or creative direction or whatever excuse they make up quick enough.

If it's the main character you play, wooooo boy, prepare for the "how do I relate" debates.
 
It sucks that non-whites aren't "allowed" to be in certain time periods and fantasy settings in fictional work because suspension of disbelief or creative direction or whatever excuse they make up quick enough.
Nah it is just that they are racist.
 
Only if the game is trying to be historically accurate or portray a specific culture, but even then very little. Now changing a established characters skin tone or gender, that's a whole other topic.
 
If you're making a game that uses cultural or mythological elements from a certain society, I think it could be jarring. It's all about context. For example, a game set in a fantasy version of ancient Egypt would be bizarre if there were suddenly ethnic Chinese people there (unless it was a part of the story).
In the case of The Order, no, I don't think having dark-skinned people is jarring. There were people of color in early-industrial England, after all.
 
It just depends on the setting, context, and amount of colored/non-white people involved. If the setting is set up so that Africa (for example) or its equivalent was overrun by monsters or something and no one apparently survived, it would be really weird to see a black person walking around without anyone explaining or commenting on it. If Africa/its equivalent is just far away, there's a random black person walking around, and he's a merchant with a cart, you're gonna think "traveling merchant" and just move on.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
It sucks that non-whites aren't "allowed" to be in certain time periods and fantasy settings in fictional work because suspension of disbelief or creative direction or whatever excuse they make up quick enough.

If it's the main character you play, wooooo boy, prepare for the "how do I relate" debates.

I'm reminded of the strong reactions to Heimdall in the Thor films being a dark skinned humanoid. The alien, who is ten feet tall with technomagic powers. In a setting where human mythology is in fact from space and the gods don't have to conform to any historical reality.

I think if in your film or game you have like, a realistic England and you make the queen a native american woman with no context whatsoever... that's well, a bit strange.

But past very specific situations like that where a touch of purpose should be woven in to explain why the character is who the are, there's little defense for protecting a status quo besides "I'm not used to this and I don't want to see it."
 

Giever

Member
I guess I should also mention my feelings on the actual question posed by the thread, since I accidentally sorta just responded to The Order comments.

I don't find any realistic skin colors jarring in pretty much any fantasy settings. Obviously that all just depends on how the fantasy world is set up. This area has this group of people living in it? Okay. This area has some of these folks? Sure. Everyone is co-mingled and has been for awhile in this place? Alrighty.

I mean, it's fantasy. It can be whatever it wants, so I don't really care one way or another. In fact, it's kind of silly to not be diverse in that regard given that you have the total freedom to be so.

The only ones I would find it kind of silly in would be examples like The Order, where it's based specifically off of a certain real place and time period, but with very specific things changed (werewolves, etc.). I don't really play any games of that type, though, unless you count Assassin's Creed games (which I guess you would? They are basically fantasy but set in very specific historical settings.)

Anyway, yeah. In almost all cases I don't find that jarring. Only in very few games which are supposed to be set in times & locations where certain peoples just weren't around at that point would I find it jarring. And even then it's not like I have such a fine grasp of history that I really know what races were around what places at what times. So I'd probably be minorly jarred and then go look it up and be like "Oh I guess there probably were some ______ people there anyway."
 

Vice

Member
Isn't The Order supposed to take place in Victorian England? I don't mean fantasy Victorian England, but Victorian England as we know it. I may be wrong, but I thought that the plot of the game was that werewolves and vampires and whatnot exist and always have, and that "The Order" is a secret society that fights these monsters throughout the ages. Because of this, the setting of The Order is Victorian England and it's therefore excusable that everything besides the monsters (which in the cannon of the game exist on the same planet that we live on) reflects the reality of that time. Alternatively, a game like Dishonored features a fantasy setting based on Victorian England but has the freedom to make any changes it wishes because it's not actually Victorian England. This is similar to most fantasy games (Dragon Age, Skyrim) in that they're based on Medieval Europe but aren't actually in Medoeval Europe and don't need to abide by racial divides that existed at the time.

Black people have a long history in Europe for hundreds of years in all classes and areas of life. Having a black protagonist in The Order isn't unbelievable.
 

Alienous

Member
Striving for historical accuracy in some aspects of your game does not mean you need to strive for historical accuracy in all aspects, or that you should cater specifically to people who might be upset that their race or gender is not represented as they would like. "But there's dragons". Ok?

If you think there's some perhaps even subconscious racist motive behind it then just don't support them with your money. I can rationalize not including black or Asian characters to any large degree in a setting like the one The Order: 1886 tries to create without assuming some racist motivation, so I don't take offence to it. I don't need every potentially race sensitive time period retroactively made more palatable to me, I'm an adult and I can distinguish between when it 'makes sense' or doesn't.
 
I'm reminded of the strong reactions to Heimdall in the Thor films being a dark skinned humanoid. The alien, who is ten feet tall with technomagic powers. In a setting where human mythology is in fact from space and the gods don't have to conform to any historical reality.

A ten feet tall alien who had a preexisting character design that people associated with the character.

Different from a newly created character.
 
I wouldn't say it would be "jarring" for me, but I don't see how it's racist to say that black people probably wouldn't have been around in 1886 London. If there was a black person in The Order, I wouldn't be like "Oh my god, it's a black person, immersion ruined!" But I would expect the game to have a good reason for him being there.
 
Black people have a long history in Europe for hundreds of years in all classes and areas of life. Having a black protagonist in The Order isn't unbelievable.
I don't think it's unbelivable, so long as it's not an unexplained "token" character. Whatever the character, it would just need to be written in a convincing manner. In fact, given the period's issues of extreme racism and prejudice, such a character could be hugely interesting.
 

Vice

Member
I wouldn't say it would be "jarring" for me, but I don't see how it's racist to say that black people probably wouldn't have been around in 1886 London. If there was a black person in The Order, I wouldn't be like "Oh my god, it's a black person, immersion ruined!" But I would expect the game to have a good reason for him being there.

Black people were in London, and other areas of Europe, in 1886 though.
 

Griss

Member
Isn't The Order supposed to take place in Victorian England? I don't mean fantasy Victorian England, but Victorian England as we know it. I may be wrong, but I thought that the plot of the game was that werewolves and vampires and whatnot exist and always have, and that "The Order" is a secret society that fights these monsters throughout the ages. Because of this, the setting of The Order is Victorian England and it's therefore excusable that everything besides the monsters (which in the cannon of the game exist on the same planet that we live on) reflects the reality of that time. Alternatively, a game like Dishonored features a fantasy setting based on Victorian England but has the freedom to make any changes it wishes because it's not actually Victorian England. This is similar to most fantasy games (Dragon Age, Skyrim) in that they're based on Medieval Europe but aren't actually in Medoeval Europe and don't need to abide by racial divides that existed at the time.

This is exactly how I see it.

I've just finished up Freedom Cry and the fact that I was playing a videogame about basically 'the first Haitian' freeing slaves in Port-Au-Prince was just mindblowing to me, and very, very moving as I grew up with Haitians and their struggle is one that moves me. One scene near the end nearly brought me to tears, and would never have had the same effect if it wasn't about the people it was about.

I love seeing that kind of diversity in games, and we need more of it. But if a black character was in The Order, while I wouldn't mind, it's very possible that it would feel forced to me. I realise that this may be my ignorance as I don't actually know how rare it was for dark skinned people to be part of Victorian society - I was not there - but I imagine they were almost nonexistent. As such I'd expect it explained why there's a non-white-English person in the game. Any decent explanation and I'd be back on board. Frankly, I hope it's explained why they have those stupid-looking weapons, too. Why do they have that tech back then? I get that the game's premise is 'werewolves existed back then and we didn't know' but the weapons thing is a bit harder to swallow.

As for fantasy worlds built from scratch, anything goes, obviously. Whenever I play as a wizard/warlock in RPGs I often make him black because a lot of my childhood memories of magic have roots in Haitian stories I heard when I was a kid, in particular one book of Caribbean mythology full of voodoo and shapeshifters and spider-people and the like that I loved. The name griss was actually a name I chose for one of those characters, way back in 2005.
 
I wouldn't say it would be "jarring" for me, but I don't see how it's racist to say that black people probably wouldn't have been around in 1886 London. If there was a black person in The Order, I wouldn't be like "Oh my god, it's a black person, immersion ruined!" But I would expect the game to have a good reason for him being there.

Slaves

In fact it would probably be more realistic for one of the protagonists to have a young black "squire" who would be sent out first if werewolves started showing up
 

Dram

Member
I don't think it's unbelivable, so long as it's not an unexplained "token" character. Whatever the character, it would just need to be written in a convincing manner. In fact, given the period's issues of extreme racism and prejudice, such a character could be hugely interesting.
What makes a character a token though? I mean does there need to be more than one person of color in the game, for them not be tokens?
 

Alienous

Member
Slaves

In fact it would probably be more realistic for one of the protagonists to have a young black "squire" who would be sent out first if werewolves started showing up

Given the premise of the background of the protagonists, I have no idea why you'd think that.
 
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