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[Hyperzephyrian]

There was an entire dynasty of black Roman Emperors. The Severan dynasty, founded by Septimus Severan, whose father may have been Libyan.

Exactly but so many people don't know about how integrated African peoples have been in many societies they think the world was so insular when it really wasn't

Septimius Severus was African, but not black. His father was a Berber and he probably had some Phoenician in him too. He did have darker skin than the average European Roman, though, and he spoke with an accent.

 

[jackissocool]

Is the game focused on improving or exploring Victorian society, or electrocuting werewolves

Electrocuting werewolves is the vehicle with which to explore Victorian society.

Videogames.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Electrocuting werewolves is the vehicle with which to explore Victorian society.

Videogames.

then what's the problem

 

[Lime]

That certainly goes a long way to make a fairly vague supposition.

If you read the article in full with the sources supporting that "supposition" and the references cited, as well as thinking on how media *indirectly* helps shore up and reinforce ideas about the world, including people within them, then you would realize that it isn't a particular controversial statement.

 

[jackissocool]

then what's the problem

With what?

 

[Monocle]

Yes, it's quite jarring. In fact, I actually went out and bought a purse so that I could clutch it every time a dark skinned character appears on my screen. So far my valuables are safe, thank goodness.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Is the game focused on improving or exploring Victorian society, or electrocuting werewolves

I don't think you need to focus on one at the sake of ignoring the other completely. The exploration of Victorian society could very well be woven into the backdrop of the game.

 

[Jito]

Two threads moaning about The Order in one day? Slow the moan guys! The game isn't out yet so maybe let's wait and see what characters turn up in the full game.

I've seen one black character in AC: Unity, where's all the the hubub over that or has no one noticed yet?

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

With what?

On what basis? Why would you throw the racism out? It's a major part of Victorian England. Why would you not want to explore the issues of that era? Why would you try to whitewash the era's problems? The technology and enemies of the day (werewolves) are changed, fine. It's still set in Victorian England. That must mean something, or else it should have been a game based on Victorian England.

This idea that a game has to be digital 12 Years A Slave or some shit to allow dark skin.

Two threads moaning about The Order in one day? Slow the moan guys! The game isn't out yet so maybe let's wait and see what characters turn up in the full game.

I've seen one black character in AC: Unity, where's all the the hubub over that or has no one noticed yet?

The thread was sparked by something that came out of the Order thread, but is neither limited to nor "attacking" The Order.

 

[Mr_Appleby]

Black people have a long history in Europe for hundreds of years in all classes and areas of life. Having a black protagonist in The Order isn't unbelievable.

Thousands actually. Africans served in the roman legions, served in Britain and we have historical records that place "black moors" in the united kingdom in 1503 as both servants and as free men of high enough status to be present at the kings court.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

This idea that a game has to be digital 12 Years A Slave or some shit to allow dark skin.

I didn't say the narrative needed to be a compelling narrative only about racial prejudice, but that to avoid tokenism, the any characters (black or white) should be set in the context of the era. You can certainly create the game without doing that, but I'm free to think it's a mistake and a missed opportunity.

 

[SkyOdin]

More likely he would have been a Moor, and they were light-skinned Africans. But either way, it wouldn't be weird.

That's a bit of a misunderstanding. Fierabras is a fictional character. The ethnicity he is assigned in the stories he appears in was strongly associated with being black at the time a lot of those stories were written. So you can't really talk about "what he actually historically was", only "what the writers and readers imagined".

I was using "Ancient Egypt" in its academic definition, i.e. the pre-Islamic civilization that existed in Egypt from the 3rd millennium BCE to the 4th century BCE.
It would, however, be very cool to see a game set in 15th century Arabia, when Zheng He's fleet arrived. That must have been quite a strange event for all involved.

I don't know, the Arabs and Persians had been trading heavily with the Chinese for over a millennia at that point. The entire Indian Ocean is one big well-connected trade network that is the home to a lot of cultural cross-pollination. While the spectacle may have been unusual, that has little to do with the ethnicity of those involved.

The Arabs were well familiar with the idea of chinese people, even if the particulars of life in China were a mystery to them. That's why Ala ad-Din, known in the west as Aladdin, was Chinese in the original stories he comes from. While China was seen as a distant and exotic land, it was still something that the average Arab of the time knew about.

 

[striferser]

I wouldn't say it would be "jarring" for me, but I don't see how it's racist to say that black people probably wouldn't have been around in 1886 London. If there was a black person in The Order, I wouldn't be like "Oh my god, it's a black person, immersion ruined!" But I would expect the game to have a good reason for him being there.

Werewolf as a threat. With a threat that dangerous, isn't it correct to assume that the Order won't give a damn about your skin color and gender as long that you can held a gun and shot the werewolf?

 

[Garrett Hawke]

I think any fantasy setting that diverges from reality dramatically should have no issues diversifying in terms of race/gender/etc

Like... there are space monkeys that shoot lasers and can teleport but we're all white because it's 1700s Scotland because that's "historically accurate"

 

[CrazyDogg77]

There was an entire dynasty of black Roman Emperors. The Severan dynasty, founded by Septimus Severan, whose father may have been Libyan.

Exactly but so many people don't know about how integrated African peoples have been in many societies they think the world was so insular when it really wasn't

 

[jmood88]

Two threads moaning about The Order in one day? Slow the moan guys! The game isn't out yet so maybe let's wait and see what characters turn up in the full game.

I've seen one black character in AC: Unity, where's all the the hubub over that or has no one noticed yet?

The Assassin's Creed series has featured many non-white protagonists and major npcs and no one is arguing that it's not possible for non-white main characters to exist in any of the time periods that the games have been set.

 

[Dawg]

why do so many videogames want to be "historically accurate"

you can be inspired by a certain historical setting but still change some stuff imho

why is it so goddamn important to be as accurate as possible when it comes to skin color while i've seen "historically accurate" videogames fuck up the actual important stuff like the story or the setting in general

i mean for god sake, videogames give you the chance to be original and create new stuff yet so many games want to be "accurate"

such a weak excuse

i wouldn't even mind playing a black knight in a medieval setting or whatever people seem to find ridiculous, i just want the game to be interesting

 

[jackissocool]

This idea that a game has to be digital 12 Years A Slave or some shit to allow dark skin.

Well you play as members of the ruling class. The ruling class in Victorian England was white. In this setting that's pretty much what it has to be. I do agree with you in general, though. Games are more willing than ever to have black protagonists (for example), but there are almost no games featuring a black playable character where their race isn't somehow central to the character. It shouldn't always have to be about deep race struggles - that's the whole thing about needing a reason for a non-white character and it's the next issue to address after just having black characters at all. The only game I can think of off the top of my head that has a black lead but isn't about race in some way is Starhawk - everyone else is a former slave or something.

This does not address a separate issue in media where people always want to hear about hose in power - I'm pretty sick of it, and would dig a game in this setting where you play as the poor and the oppressed, since that's what most people have experienced throughout history. Playing only as the powerful reinforces ideas of class superiority and I hope this game clearly portrays the Order's actions against the rebels as negative. Even so, it would still present the idea of the rich white people coming in to save the poor from... them.

The Assassin's Creed series has featured many non-white protagonists and major npcs and no one is arguing that it's not possible for non-white main characters to exist in any of the time periods that the games have been set.

That is not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing you can't have non-white people as members of King Arthur's Order as presented, because they are an oppressive group. I would love a different game in the same setting where that limitation didn't exist, but in this game it does.

 

[Enzom21]

Two threads moaning about The Order in one day? Slow the moan guys! The game isn't out yet so maybe let's wait and see what characters turn up in the full game.

I've seen one black character in AC: Unity, where's all the the hubub over that or has no one noticed yet?

You think discussing how ridiculous people are for thinking a game with werewolves should be historically accurate when it comes to race is moaning?

 

[jmood88]

On what basis? Why would you throw the racism out? It's a major part of Victorian England. Why would you not want to explore the issues of that era? Why would you try to whitewash the era's problems? The technology and enemies of the day (werewolves) are changed, fine. It's still set in Victorian England. That must mean something, or else it should have been a game based on Victorian England.

It would be very interesting to have a story about real life racial issues but why does that necessarily have to be the case for non-white characters to be in the game? They're fine with having werewolf attacks be relatively normal occurrences in the world, so why wouldn't it be possible that a non-white person could walk around saving people's lives without being attacked at all times?

 

[Jito]

The Assassin's Creed series has featured many non-white protagonists and major npcs and no one is arguing that it's not possible for non-white main characters to exist in any of the time periods that the games have been set.

OK, but the latest game has less representation that older games then. They've regressed if anything and no one is bothered, yet you're all morning about a game that's not even out.

You think discussing how ridiculous people are for thinking a game with werewolves should be historically accurate when it comes to race is moaning?

No don't put words in my mouth. I think moaning about the Order again is moaning. Wait til its out and you know all the facts at least, then moan away.

 

[Lime]

Games are more willing than ever to have black protagonists (for example),

You sure about that?

 

[jmood88]

OK, but the latest game has less representation that older games then. They've regressed if anything and no one is bothered, yet you're all morning about a game that's not even out.

You don't even understand what the discussion is about. You should probably go back and read some before commenting.

 

[Alienous]

So we all agree that ethnic minorities should not be removed from time periods or locations in which they were part of (thus the "a black character could feasibly be a protagonist of The Order: 1886 argument") if maintaining historical context is a goal.

What I'm not quite understanding is the purpose of 'adding' ethnic minorities in historical contexts where that addition does not make sense, simply because other parts of the game don't make logical sense. What purpose does that serve?

 

[Portugeezer]

Werewolf as a threat. With a threat that dangerous, isn't it correct to assume that the Order won't give a damn about your skin color and gender as long that you can held a gun and shot the werewolf?

That is not what the game is about, you are part of a specific group which is meant to deal with the warewolves.

 

[Jito]

You don't even understand what the discussion is about. You should probably go back and read some before commenting.

I read the whole thread and picked up on another issue no one had mentioned, thanks for the suggestion though.

 

[SkyOdin]

So we all agree that ethnic minorities should not be removed from time periods or locations in which they were part of (thus the "a black character could feasibly be a protagonist of The Order: 1886 argument").

What I'm not quite understanding is the purpose of 'adding' ethnic minorities in historical contexts where that addition does not make sense, simply because other parts of the game don't make logical sense. What purpose does that serve?

Can you give an example of where it wouldn't make logical sense?

 

[Enzom21]

No don't put words in my mouth. I think moaning about the Order again is moaning. Wait til its out and you know all the facts at least, then moan away.

Did you even read the thread you are posting in?
People are talking about how ridiculous it is that people think it is "jarring" to have a person of color in a video game with werewolves, not that there are no black people in The Order. Try reading the fucking thread.

 

[jackissocool]

You sure about that?

Well I think so. I haven't done a study but that's what I perceive. Are you thinking games used to be more racially inclusive than they are now? I guess I could be wrong. At the very least attitudes have definitely changed for the better, evidenced by the fact that these discussion are common.

Can you give an example of where it wouldn't make logical sense?

The specific argument is that the Order is an oppressive, elitist group and so wouldn't allow poor blacks to join. Someone made a good argument in the other thread about foreign merchants, though. I definitely don't think any black people in the Order (the organization in the game, not the game itself) could be English, though.

 

[jmood88]

I read the whole thread and picked up on another issue no one had mentioned, thanks for the suggestion though.

Well then you just have a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue at hand.

 

[Dawg]

On what basis? Why would you throw the racism out? It's a major part of Victorian England. Why would you not want to explore the issues of that era? Why would you try to whitewash the era's problems? The technology and enemies of the day (werewolves) are changed, fine. It's still set in Victorian England. That must mean something, or else it should have been a game based on Victorian England.

Maybe because they like the art-style and general feeling of a setting such as Victorian England? It's not because they like those aspects that you need to include the racism too. That's not what this game is about. It would feel so forced and out of place. It's not because the people back then were assholes and racists that we should automatically mention that in every game being inspired by Victorian England.

 

[Supermanisdead]

fantasy settings it's fine tbh. it's great when they have their separate regions too like UrbanRats said.

in historical settings it would be weird to see other ethnicities as higher up though (unless it's set in those respective countries). like i don't want to watch Rome and see a Black senator, it would just be jarring.

but shit like Elder Scrolls, The Order or Dragon Age, go nuts with the skin tones.

but a bunch of lily white british dudes speaking shakespearean english is a-ok

 

[Dawg]

What I'm not quite understanding is the purpose of 'adding' ethnic minorities in historical contexts where that addition does not make sense, simply because other parts of the game don't make logical sense. What purpose does that serve?

I think this is one of the biggest issues. People feel like there should be a reason to add different skin colors... when there shouldn't be a reason required. It should be natural. Do we have a reason as for why the vast majority of videogames features white male protagonist?. No. I'm sure the publishers can cook up some kind of excuse, but the truth is: there is no legit excuse. There simply isn't. The ONLY exception would be a game that actually markets itself as 100% historically accurate. In that case, there is an excuse.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

White people can be anything.

Black people must be historically accurate because reasons.

Which is scary, but i guess people are use to it. Quite sad

 

[Jito]

Well then you just have a fundamental misunderstanding of the issue at hand.

Hardly, people find it weird when minorities appear in certain settings, not overly complicated.

 

[HGStormy]

It's fantasy.

FANTASY.

 

[Lime]

So we all agree that ethnic minorities should not be removed from time periods or locations in which they were part of (thus the "a black character could feasibly be a protagonist of The Order: 1886 argument").

What I'm not quite understanding is the purpose of 'adding' ethnic minorities in simply because other parts of the game don't make logical sense. What purpose does that serve?

1) What are "historical contexts where the addition of ethic minorities does not make sense"? Could you please provide some examples.
2) If other parts of a game don't make "logical sense", then what's the argument against adding visible minority groups to the game? Why shouldn't other people than the default white straight dude not be in the game?

 

[jackissocool]

I think this is one of the biggest issues. People feel like there should be a reason to add different skin colors... when there shouldn't be a reason required. It should be natural. Do we have a reason as for why the vast majority of videogames features white male protagonist?. No. I'm sure the publishers can cook up some kind of excuse, but the truth is: there is no legit excuse. There simply isn't. The ONLY exception would be a game that actually markets itself as 100% historically accurate. In that case, there is an excuse.

I feel like what you think he's saying is this: "If you ever want a non-white character, you need a reason."

I think what he's saying is this: "In some settings, if you want a non-white character, you need a reason." The same way you'd need an explanation for a white character in a game about the Olmec or an Arabic character in a game about the first settlers of Hawaii. In the specific story of The Order: 1886, you'd need an explanation as to why there is a black knight in this group. It's a big difference. It's not like demanding an explanation for a black character in CoD or Far Cry, because there no explanation is necessary.

 

[Dawg]

Videogames feature some of the most ridiculous stuff I have ever seen.

But once you start talking about skin color, everyone gets serious as if we are discussing some 100% accurate documentary.

 

[Lime]

Videogames feature some of the most ridiculous stuff I have ever seen.

But once you start talking about skin color, everyone gets serious as if we are discussing some 100% accurate documentary.

This is why

 

[Dawg]

In the specific story of The Order: 1886, you'd need an explanation as to why there is a black knight in this group.

Why?

 

[jackissocool]

Videogames feature some of the most ridiculous stuff I have ever seen.

But once you start talking about skin color, everyone gets serious as if we are discussing some 100% accurate documentary.

RaD are basically presenting this game as 100% accurate documentary + werewolves.

Why?

Cause the Order is an oppressive organization ruled by rich white royalty. Making a black person a member would need some explanation why a group that fights the poor and the oppressed would accept someone who was poor and oppressed (the norm for black people in England at the time) or why this black person was not poor and oppressed (the good example someone gave that I really liked was that they be a wealthy merchant from another country).

 

[Enzom21]

Hardly, people find it weird when minorities appear in certain settings, not overly complicated.

Which is ridiculous considering they have no issue with werewolves. How is that people "moaning" about The Order? Which was your original bitch in this thread.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Historical context becomes little more than a setting or backdrop when you start introducing electrocannons and werewolves.

Anyway, people are focusing too heavily on The Order when the thread is about general skin color/fantasy settings. If seeing other skin colors seems weird when you're riding dragons, fighitng non-existent creatures, and/or saving the world with jewelry then that's odd.

 

[jackissocool]

Anyway, people are focusing too heavily on The Order when the thread is about general skin color/fantasy settings. If seeing other skin colors seems weird when you're riding dragons, fighitng non-existent creatures, and/or saving the world with jewelry then that's odd.

Agreed. Fantasy is very often too much about generic European white people tropes. I really appreciate games that eschew that - Elder Scrolls and Dragon Age come to mind.

 

[Jito]

Which is ridiculous considering they have no issue with werewolves. How is that people "moaning" about The Order? Which was your original bitch in this thread.

There are enough people in here saying I'd be ridiculous if no minorities appear in The Order, yet we don't know much about the game yet. You seem very aggressive with all the swearing as well, lay off a bit.

 

[GoldenCrow]

Never, you can always write whatever you want into a fantasy setting, historical settings can be a bit more complicated and you always have what evidence of the past we have and what people want to think but even so it is still possible to write almost any situation in.

I don't know why people are arguing in the thread about The Order characters not featuring people of different ethnic backgrounds because it would be inconsistent with the time period as it wouldn't be. I went into a bit more detail in that thread and is super easy to find out with a quick search.

 

[Giever]

On the one hand, the amount of racial diversity in games is abysmal. There are so many games out there that could've included more minorities, both as NPCs, and playable characters (main, or otherwise). Many of the excuses trotted out to justify the lack of this stuff are just ridiculous bullshit.

On the other hand, I don't think that, in every case, citing historical accuracy as a driving reason behind why your game has made certain decisions regarding which races and ethnicities show up, is bullshit. Regarding The Order, as has already been stated in the thread, there were plenty of black people around Victorian London.

I don't really know much about the game, and am not interested in it, however, given what kind of game it seems to be (AAA, attempting to be srs, cinematic, etc.), I don't think it's unreasonable for the developers to not want to just say "lol fuk it, ur just electrocutin sum werewolves, dudez" and not care about anything else whatsoever. I can imagine some goofy indie game about fighting werewolves with advanced technology in Victorian London including all sorts of characters, racially and ethnically, with no real need to explain their place in the world.

But given the kind of game The Order seems to be, I do think it's fair to expect that certain issues of the time would be touched on. It would be a bit disjointed to have these high society white dudes just chumming along with some black dude or lady, as we all pretend that serious-fucking-racism didn't exist at that time and place.

Yes, they could just include characters like that and not bother to represent any of that awful shit along with it, but it just strikes me as an odd choice if the game is meant to be this relatively historically accurate setting, with a few things changed around.

Basically, what I'm saying is: most excuses attempting to justify the lack of diversity in video games are bullshit. Claiming the need for historical accuracy in a lot of cases is bullshit. But I don't think it is in every single fucking instance, and I do find it a little bit unreasonable for people to just roll their eyes at any attempt to explain why "particular game X" might have made certain design choices that it made regarding these sorts of things.

The only reason it's seen as a problem for specific games is because the lack of diversity in video games is a gigantic industry-wide problem. If 95% of all games had awesomely diverse casts with lots of great representation, I don't imagine people would be particularly upset with some games occasionally choosing to value certain accuracies in their projects. But since that isn't the case in the industry, and since people do make a lot of bullshit excuses, I guess some of the reasonable ones end up blending in with the rest of the bullshit.

 

[jackissocool]

On the one hand, the amount of racial diversity in games is abysmal. There are so many games out there that could've included more minorities, both as NPCs, and playable characters (main, or otherwise). Many of the excuses trotted out to justify the lack of this stuff are just ridiculous bullshit.

On the other hand, I don't think that, in every case, citing historical accuracy as a driving reason behind why your game has made certain decisions regarding which races and ethnicities show up, is bullshit. Regarding The Order, as has already been stated in the thread, there were plenty of black people around Victorian London.

I don't really know much about the game, and am not interested in it, however, given what kind of game it seems to be (AAA, attempting to be srs, cinematic, etc.), I don't think it's unreasonable for the developers to not want to just say "lol fuk it, ur just electrocutin sum werewolves, dudez" and not care about anything else whatsoever. I can imagine some goofy indie game about fighting werewolves with advanced technology in Victorian London including all sorts of characters, racially and ethnically, with no real need to explain there place in the world.

But given the kind of game The Order seems to be, I do think it's fair to expect that certain issues of the time would be touched on. It would be a bit disjointed to have these high society white dudes just chumming along with some black dude or lady, as we all pretend that serious-fucking-racism didn't exist at that time and place.

Yes, they could just include characters like that and not bother to represent any of that awful shit along with it, but it just strikes me as an odd choice if the game is meant to be this relatively historically accurate settings, with a few things changed around.

Basically, what I'm saying is: most excuses attempting to justify the lack of diversity in video games is bullshit. Claiming the need for historical accuracy in a lot of cases is bullshit. But I don't think it is in every single fucking instance, and I do find it a little bit unreasonable for people to just roll their eyes at any attempt to explain why "particular game X" might have made certain design choices that it made regarding these sorts of things.

The only reason it's seen as a problem for specific games is because the lack of diversity in video games is a gigantic industry-wide problem. If 95% of all games had awesomely diverse casts with lots of great representation, I don't imagine people would be particularly upset with some games occasionally choosing to value certain accuracies in their projects. But since that isn't the case in the industry, and since people do make a lot of bullshit excuses, I guess some of the reasonable ones end up blending in with the rest of the bullshit.

Quality post.

 

[Nome]

Verisimilitude