Yeah, that is not the same thing as calling you a harassing monster. People are capable of doing harm despite their best intention. Not personally, but indirectly. I have certainly done harm in the past because I am human. That is not a direct attack and hate against you, as it is a demonstration of the consequences of one's actions. Actions have consequences, it doesn't mean you are a bad person if the consequence is negative, but it happens and the point is that one looks at, acknowledges it, and learns from it.
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#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014
- Thread starter besada
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Yeah, that is not the same thing as calling you a harassing monster. People are capable of doing harm despite their best intention. Not personally, but indirectly. I have certainly done harm in the past because I am human. That is not a direct attack and hate against you, as it is a demonstration of the consequences of one's actions. Actions have consequences, it doesn't mean you are a bad person if the consequence is negative, but it happens and the point is that one looks at, acknowledges it, and learns from it.
boogie2988
Banned
All said though I'm not very good at dealing with certain types of criticism and I think that's apparent in this thread. while I still have a cool mind and my head on my shoulders allow me to say this;
I know this is a difficult and heated argument and its very difficult to understand my position in this whole thing; i'm right in the middle.
But 4chan is not wrong when they say that I've "sided with the industry" because I have and always will. I love gaming, and furthermore I LOVE THIS INDUSTRY. I'm so glad to play the minor role in it that I do.
Others will be right when they say I'm a little crazy and that I side with the #gamergaters because I support integrity in this industry and I support those who can deliver that message without being obnoxious assholes.
While I don't like hearing it, the majority of the criticisms about myself as a person and my work in this thread is valid. While not all of it has been constructive I have every intention to use it to try to grow as both a person and an entertainer.
That said, I once again reiterate that each person involved in this, including you and I, are actual thinking feeling valid human beings and we should do every single thing we can to be kind to each other.
I hope that we can stop hiding behind phrases like "sjw shill" and "worthless gamer" and start actually discussing this stuff at one point, because if we don't I don't think its ever going away.
Until that happens I remain firmly planted in the middle trying to reduce the collateral damage as much as possible on every side. I do this not for every gamer, but for people like zoe, and leigh, and anita whose opinions I do not always agree with but are just as valid as anyone else's.
Love you guys.
I know this is a difficult and heated argument and its very difficult to understand my position in this whole thing; i'm right in the middle.
But 4chan is not wrong when they say that I've "sided with the industry" because I have and always will. I love gaming, and furthermore I LOVE THIS INDUSTRY. I'm so glad to play the minor role in it that I do.
Others will be right when they say I'm a little crazy and that I side with the #gamergaters because I support integrity in this industry and I support those who can deliver that message without being obnoxious assholes.
While I don't like hearing it, the majority of the criticisms about myself as a person and my work in this thread is valid. While not all of it has been constructive I have every intention to use it to try to grow as both a person and an entertainer.
That said, I once again reiterate that each person involved in this, including you and I, are actual thinking feeling valid human beings and we should do every single thing we can to be kind to each other.
I hope that we can stop hiding behind phrases like "sjw shill" and "worthless gamer" and start actually discussing this stuff at one point, because if we don't I don't think its ever going away.
Until that happens I remain firmly planted in the middle trying to reduce the collateral damage as much as possible on every side. I do this not for every gamer, but for people like zoe, and leigh, and anita whose opinions I do not always agree with but are just as valid as anyone else's.
Love you guys.
boogie2988
Banned
point taken. I will try to do better. I'll admit that this issue is a personal weakness of mine, one of many.
Boogie!
What you say in your video makes sense. But I'd say people will always turn to their friends for the best game choices. I turn to youtube to see games that I might love. And if I watch a bit of a lets play and fall in love...then I'll get the game. I don't think games will fail when we have people like you and others to give us personable trusted advice.
Likewise...if a game is free and the donations are sent partially to charity...then I don't think that game is in anyway something to fear. I have absolutely no clue how the Zoe situation inflated over a free game. This whole situation is incredibly alien to me. It makes me fearful of ever making something I'd like to share with the world since I'm now seeing that the environment in the industry can be so shocking hateful.
It makes me afraid.
If Zoe is a terrible women and all the journalists and evil/corrupt as well...over a free game, than I don't know what to think. There's no threat of buyers remorse over something that costs nothing.
I also feel as though games are amazing coping devices. Games have helped me live through awful experiences. I'm an extremely nostalgic gamer, and they are something very precious to me. When I developed games in school we made games specifically for people dealing with social trauma and autism. The game measured heart rates and breathing to monitor and help children cope with anxiety "triggers." If that game was free and on Steam...would it also have to face the same thing Zoe's game suffered from? Personal attacks and threats of violence to the creators?
I just don't know. I feel as though games as a medium deserve much more respect than this. Especially since games do a lot more than just entertain.
What you say in your video makes sense. But I'd say people will always turn to their friends for the best game choices. I turn to youtube to see games that I might love. And if I watch a bit of a lets play and fall in love...then I'll get the game. I don't think games will fail when we have people like you and others to give us personable trusted advice.
Likewise...if a game is free and the donations are sent partially to charity...then I don't think that game is in anyway something to fear. I have absolutely no clue how the Zoe situation inflated over a free game. This whole situation is incredibly alien to me. It makes me fearful of ever making something I'd like to share with the world since I'm now seeing that the environment in the industry can be so shocking hateful.
It makes me afraid.
If Zoe is a terrible women and all the journalists and evil/corrupt as well...over a free game, than I don't know what to think. There's no threat of buyers remorse over something that costs nothing.
I also feel as though games are amazing coping devices. Games have helped me live through awful experiences. I'm an extremely nostalgic gamer, and they are something very precious to me. When I developed games in school we made games specifically for people dealing with social trauma and autism. The game measured heart rates and breathing to monitor and help children cope with anxiety "triggers." If that game was free and on Steam...would it also have to face the same thing Zoe's game suffered from? Personal attacks and threats of violence to the creators?
I just don't know. I feel as though games as a medium deserve much more respect than this. Especially since games do a lot more than just entertain.
boogie2988
Banned
I am glad to hear you are a forward thinker and think for yourself when it comes to determining whether or not to get a game. You are the answer to all of our problems. keep it up.
You said you don't know how all this blew up because of zoe's free game, and neither do I. I was not around during that part of that. I played zoe's free version of the game back when it first trended and while I'd not say its much of a game as a text based adventure akin to a choose your own adventure book, I found it valid and amusing. It lead to me making a donation to write love on her arms soon after playing it.
I do not think journalists are corrupt because of zoe's games or anything related to it. I think journalists are corrupt because they are human and just like all of us we make mistakes. In my mind, and in the minds of the majority of people involved in this thing, zoe and her game does not factor into it at all any more.
That said nothing... absolutely NOTHING... justifies the things that have happened to that girl, nor anyone else who has been hurt by this thing. that part of this sucks horribly and I hope and pray every day the people involved leave people like her alone and instead stick to the actual issues.
In fact, I'm literally begging for them to do it.
Don't think I'm drawing some sort of parallel in this video to all of that. That's certainly not what I meant.
I'm more thinking about Destiny which is an OK game but not worthy of the hype it received. Myself and others who hyped it are part of the problem and its something we need to reconsider. That's all I'm saying. Zoe Quinn was not even remotely on my mind while making that video. It seems the only time she ever is, is when I read this thread.
"Can't we all just get along?"
What is this, 1992? Wanting the world to be driven by love is all fine and dandy, failing to recognize when that love and passion is being manipulated by people in the service of legitimizing heinous deeds driven by malice is negligent and irresponsible.
What is this, 1992? Wanting the world to be driven by love is all fine and dandy, failing to recognize when that love and passion is being manipulated by people in the service of legitimizing heinous deeds driven by malice is negligent and irresponsible.
boogie2988
Banned
I absolutely do not want the world to be driven by love, that would be boring.
I absolutely want us to discuss things with as much detail and vigor as human possibly to try to find a common area and create something beautiful together.
I just want us to be kind while we do so.I do recognize that many people on both sides of this thing are using love, passion, empathy, and anything else they can find to keep that from ever happening. I absolutely will always point that out and I refuse to be negligent and irresponsible by not doing so.
we are a lot more alike thank you think!
Okay. Sorry if we are constantly reading into it. I unfortunately...am a Nintendo fan so I hardly hype anything anymore. Just more Zelda, Mario and Smash.
The era of gaming I loved, died around 2006...I have little interest in the AAA stuff and tend to look out for cool niche Japanese games instead.
Nintendo games are notoriously rated lowly by gamespot. And I remember when Twilight Princeas got an 8.8. I was ready to kill someone. I was way too passionate and excited to accept a score lower that 9.5 from any reviewer. I believe I partook in a big butthurt hate campaign in the name of Zelda.
That. Is the source of this problem. Fans are too passionate. Passion is suffering...and it brings both intense love for a game PLUS intense hatred for people who criticize said game. It's really no different for any other form of intense passion. And it can be a terrifying hateful energy at any moment. Springing up and turning into blind hatred...in this case towards "progressives"
That's how I view this. If a journalists criticizes hard they're dead. If they are positive and hype things up...then they might not be truthful. So it's either, everyone hates them for being critical or everyone hates them for lying.
But in the end, I like the idea of having enthusiast sections for people who just wanna love and then critical sections for everyone who wants to think. Being hyped is fun! Even if disappointment sets in after. :9
The era of gaming I loved, died around 2006...I have little interest in the AAA stuff and tend to look out for cool niche Japanese games instead.
Nintendo games are notoriously rated lowly by gamespot. And I remember when Twilight Princeas got an 8.8. I was ready to kill someone. I was way too passionate and excited to accept a score lower that 9.5 from any reviewer. I believe I partook in a big butthurt hate campaign in the name of Zelda.
That. Is the source of this problem. Fans are too passionate. Passion is suffering...and it brings both intense love for a game PLUS intense hatred for people who criticize said game. It's really no different for any other form of intense passion. And it can be a terrifying hateful energy at any moment. Springing up and turning into blind hatred...in this case towards "progressives"
That's how I view this. If a journalists criticizes hard they're dead. If they are positive and hype things up...then they might not be truthful. So it's either, everyone hates them for being critical or everyone hates them for lying.
But in the end, I like the idea of having enthusiast sections for people who just wanna love and then critical sections for everyone who wants to think. Being hyped is fun! Even if disappointment sets in after. :9
Okay. Sorry if we are constantly reading into it. I unfortunately...am a Nintendo fan so I hardly hype anything anymore. Just more Zelda, Mario and Smash.
The era of gaming I loved, died around 2006...I have little interest in the AAA stuff and tend to look out for cool niche Japanese games instead.
Nintendo games are notoriously rated lowly by gamespot. And I remember when Twilight Princeas got an 8.8. I was ready to kill someone. I was way to passionate and excited to accept a score lower that 9.5 from any reviewer.
That. Is the source of this problem. Fans are too passionate. Passion is suffering...and it brings both intense love for a game PLUS intense hatred for people who criticize said game. It's really no different for any other form of intense passion. And it can be a terrifying hateful energy at any moment. Springing up from blind hatred.
That's how I view this. If a journalists criticizes hard they're dead. If they are positive and hype things up...then they might not be truthful. But in the end, I like the idea of having enthusiast sections and then critical sections for everyone. Being hyped is fun! Even if disappointment sets in after. :9
Oh man, I still remember the 8.8 rage, holy cow. And that is partly why I have been wondering if a truly non corrupt gaming press is possible. Because despite the demand against corruption, it seems many are against unique voices anyways. If so, what is the point of this whole movement? They are just going to drive them away anyways, driving game journalism back to the homogenous mess that it already is.
Also, we have similar taste in games!
boogie2988
Banned
Okay. Sorry if we are constantly reading into it. I unfortunately...am a Nintendo fan so I hardly hype anything anymore. Just more Zelda, Mario and Smash.
The era of gaming I loved, died around 2006...I have little interest in the AAA stuff and tend to look out for cool niche Japanese games instead.
Nintendo games are notoriously rated lowly by gamespot. And I remember when Twilight Princeas got an 8.8. I was ready to kill someone. I was way to passionate and excited to accept a score lower that 9.5 from any reviewer.
That. Is the source of this problem. Fans are too passionate. Passion is suffering...and it brings both intense love for a game PLUS intense hatred for people who criticize said game. It's really no different for any other form of intense passion. And it can be a terrifying hateful energy at any moment. Springing up from blind hatred.
That's how I view this. If a journalists criticizes hard they're dead. If they are positive and hype things up...then they might not be truthful. But in the end, I like the idea of having enthusiast sections and then critical sections for everyone. Being hyped is fun! Even if disappointment sets in after. :9
I really, really like you. You have managed to capture some of the nuances of how complicated this is with your post and I really admire that. You are awesome.
this is all the more reason I hope we can eventually begin an honest and genuine dialogue about these kinds of things and I hope it begins sooner rather than later. In the meantime I'll continue to start trying to spark that conversation in my own way (outside of gamergate)
Dictator93
Member
Doesn't Boogie parody a stereotype of what a "gamer" is?
Isn't that set apart from using the word gamer as a catch all in an argument? I don't see how it somehow makes his opinion laughable or something.
boogie2988
Banned
Oh man, I still remember the 8.8 rage, holy cow. And that is partly why I have been wondering if a truly non corrupt gaming press is possible. Because despite the demand against corruption, it seems many are against unique voices anyways. If so, what is the point of this whole movement? They are just going to drive them away anyways, driving game journalism back to the homogenous mess that it already is.
Also, we have similar taste in games!
Since I have admitted to participating in 4chan threads I can shine some light on that for you. Many people will disagree with what I have to say and more will hate it, but I think its important to say anyways.
For many of the people involved this is on longer about 'harassment' or 'zoe' or 'anita' or anything like that. Its about trying to spark a discussion between gamers (the customers) and the press (the people selling ad space to them).
Many of us agree that there is a happy medium that can be found that still allows the gaming journalism industry to be loose and profitable while still being more transparent and integral. I agree with this vast majority.
There is yet a smaller minority who disagree that there's ever a chance we'll find that middle ground and they would just love to watch the whole thing burn. I absolutely disagree with these people and spend the majority of my time participating in those threads expressing how wrong that is. Even if they were right, how harmful and unkind such a goal is and it should never become the goal of the movement.
I personally think number scores are the worst thing to happen to the gaming industry. I personally prefer Kotaku's approach to reviews. "Should you play this game? Yes, no, wait." Its the perfect scoring system that prevents hype and really informs the consumer. Its these types of things most moderates want to see continue and come to light
boogie2988
Banned
The entire point of the character is 50% to laugh at the stereotype while the other 50% is to lead people to get to know the real me and realize how invalid such stereotypes actually are.
That second part is lost on a lot of people but that's ok. They'll come around eventually
Mr Boog. We never meant to come across as harassing. The sentiment was that by supporting GamerGate, you are unwittingly supporting the vitriolic regressive element that are coat-tailing the topic.
Your message of peace and acceptance is wonderful. Your love of your fellow gamer is a trait we should all have. None of us here would dispute that.
We tried to point out that there are those in the movement that are trying to slide in some sort of "you aren't allowed to talk about certain topics when speaking about games" theme. That is a terrible thing. Actually mandating what is and what isn't a game, what is and isn't allowed to be talked about... all fitting under the branching banner of GamerGate.
Some want transparency and ethics. Which is wonderful.
Some want a rebellion against some perceived SJW threat to games. Which is confused and regressive.
Some want to dictate what the press can say regarding games. Which is oppressive and terrifying.
Some want to take down key people and websites. Which is terrible.
All of it is gamergate, regardless of how much some want to distance themselves from certain elements, whether it be through their actual well meaning beliefs or as a moral ground diversion.
This is what we tried to say. You put yourself out there with it with the best intentions, it unfortunately lumped you with the undesirables by proxy. Hence your appearance of "ok sources of gaming news" on the ever so slightly propaganda edged jpegs that made its way around.
You retracted to a middle ground to spread your message of unity and that was a wonderful place to be. Away from the fires of negativity, a positive message that nobody can dispute.
Anyway, you know I was part of the big debate earlier with you and I went to pains to say "I really apologise for coming across as harranging you, it is not the intention". At the end of it all, you are your own person, it has been great having you in here and talking to you (always exciting to have actual real conversation with OMG THAT GUY FROM VIDEOS!), your core motivation is to be applauded.
boogie2988
Banned
Thank you, and you are awesome.
The things that I spoke of in that 4chan post do not only relate to the things that have happened here, but elsewhere including many private channels.
I will be the first to admit that while I feel like I'm trying to convince an angry crowd that I'm not a witch, that has certainly been no witch hunt and people have treated me largely with respect and kindness and I greatly appreciate that.
you said that "All of it is gamergate, regardless of how much some want to distance themselves from certain elements, whether it be through their actual well meaning beliefs or as a moral ground diversion."
A small percentage of your food is bug excrement, as well. We still have to eat it. A small part of #gamergate is assholes harassing good innocent people. We still have to discuss it.
14 years old.
I had been waiting for a game like Twilight Princess since I was 9. You can see how that would lead to unrealistic expectations.
boogie2988
Banned
14 years old.
I had been waiting for a game like Twilight Princess since I was 9. You can see how that would lead to unrealistic expectations.
I was in my early 30's when it came out and I was just as hyped and as excited as you. The NES zelda was my favorite game of that era and has provided me as the benchmark for what a game is supposed to be. anything I play that falls short of that now modest greatness disappointed me.
you were not wrong to put your hopes in that franchise and I hope never will be.
that said, I'm still disappointed with Wind Waker. I know its 'in' to love that game now but when it dropped it was like a rock dropping on my foot, after ocarina/mask. I'm still not over that butthurt!
I think so. Although I think everything needs to stop. Far too much extremist mentalities going on at the moment. The quests to find information to attack certain portions of the industry. I feel so sorry for that low staff charity that suddenly found half the internet banging away for questions for justice.
All this needs to go out the window really. No discussion will happen until that goes on. All of it is looking really really bad, the creation of Vivien James and a series of slogans (varying angles depending on individuals) is bordering on propaganda.
Most industry is just stepping away and going "yep, not talking about any of this now" while it is going on. I've seen a few sites that are removed from gaming getting massive slatings because they don't portray what GamerGate thinks they should portray. All the facts that actually don't end up being facts but by that point there are 50 videos and posters about the so called facts.
It's a huge freakin' mess.
Like you, all I see now is gamer pitted against gamer. The press and industry aren't attacking anyone, just a huge slurry on twitter. I mean I get stuck in too at points because it is such a raw topic.
I feel sorry for someone (pixiejenni her name is, referred to as rainbow pixie), who has been trying to collate responses from all sides to find common themes, to actually talk about stuff based on actual feedback and not assumption. She's been penned as a concern troll, I've seen people subtweeting about her, all because she is deemed to "not be on the side". Sad.
Anyway - big hugs. I've got to go do actual work! I'm going to add you to my twitter (which I mainly reserve for music) as a measure of appreciation for what you do and what you stand for!
14 years old.
I had been waiting for a game like Twilight Princess since I was 9. You can see how that would lead to unrealistic expectations.
I was 16, and man was I hyped. Then I looked back and even though I still liked the game, it wasn't the best Zelda ever I hoped it would be. And for a bit, I was like, how dare the Zelda fans criticize the game! Although I never commented on those forum topics. Ironically, now I feel like the scores were over inflated and the weak points were large.
boogie2988
Banned
Damn, I really like you. I've not considered some of this and its excellent food for thought. thank you. I'm eager to look into what pixiejenni has achieved and encourage her.
even right now the things I'm posting to gaf are being tweeted around and posted elsewhere. When I said "4chan is right I do side with the industry" I started a giant shit storm. Its interesting.
At the end of this thing I'm pretty sure I'm going to be hung by one side or the other for not picking a side. Its starting to look like both. That's unfortunate that there is no room in this things for moderates who just care for people and gaming alike. I hope a day comes soon that there is room for me and I'm alive to see it.
I agree. I find it fascinating that you've worked on games aimed at people with autism or trauma cope. There's so much untapped potential for helping people by using interactive media like video games; I've heard that a lot of parents with autistic children have found that Minecraft has been a fantastic tool for them.
Well hopefully not from us. As I said, I think we are all behind you as a person and the things you believe in. The sheer volume of this thread shows that it is a massively complex topic, so no wonder it swings and lurches.
I don't like the sound of you getting told that your position in the industry is being harmed, that sounds like a borderline threat almost. And I guess you see the entire bug shit on your food aspect (thank you for that, that will be running through my head at lunchtime).
Personally, I think your neither for nor against stance was the best. Anyone who tries to bring you down for spreading a message of games and inclusitivity needs to step back and have a look at themselves.
Anyway, have a nice eve/morning/current galactic timezone!
Opinionatedfish
Member
I wonder if people realize that there are different levels of journalism with different standards. We have Opinion Journalism and Fact Journalism being mashed together in an inelegant way. Opinion Journalism is perfectly fine, but only if it is labeled properly. There is no difference between, say, Anita S. and Rush L. Both have a way of looking at circumstances, where they choose an interpretation of facts that fits their own narrative. That is Opinion Journalism and it is a lower tier of journalism than pure fact based reporting. People are welcome to disagree and make products that are also Opinion Journalism. In fact, that's really what Opinion Journalism is: A Product. If you don't like a product, do not consume the product. Let other people know why you dislike the product. Don't send death threats to the makers of the product. Seriously, do you send dead rats to Nabisco when your cookies go stale? If you do, you have some serious issues that need to be addressed. Please seek help for those issues. There are people demanding that Opinion Journalists must immediately act like Fact Reporters and that comes off as ridiculous.
I'm for the idea of training ethics into opinion journalists who cover video games, so that they can expand their ability to produce both fact based and opinion based pieces. There are many great ethical reporting standards out there.
If you're in Europe, join the your local unions and follow their standards.
If you're in the United States, I would suggest RTDNA, sure.. that's my union and they are rather good. SPJ is okay too.
Also, if you are a reporter in the United States, you should register with the FCC. Your reporting outlet should have a working and up to date business license, EIN, you should have an account with Lexis Nexis, or a PACER account. You should cover events and build up an honest transparency code for your site. You should keep up to date on laws pertaining to you. Do your photographers know their legal rights in their area?
But all of this discussion does not need to happen at all.
The truth in this issue is that we should not be covering Zoe Quinn's personal life. It is none of our business nor is it important to the coverage of her video game. Now, when the accusations that she "slept her way onto Steam" arose. The reports on it should have read like this:
"Depression Quest game designer, Zoe Quinn, has been accused, by unspecified members of an online forum, of allegedly exchanging unspecified sexual favors for media coverage. These allegations have been interpreted from remarks made about Zoe Quinn from her former boyfriend and fellow game developer; Eron Gjoni.
Game developer Zoe Quinn, and the people she has been allegedly involved with, have denied the accusations. Eron Gjoni has also stated that the allegations may not hold merit. The affected news outlets will put forth revised policies to clarify their standards for avoiding corruption, or the appearance of corruption, in the future.
Following the release of the allegations, Zoe Quinn has allegedly received death threats and online harassment from anonymous sources. After these alleged altercations, many unrelated parties have responded to defend Zoe Quinn in public/private forums, including Twitter, Reddit, and NeoGaf."
Then, if your readers are not satisfied by this, get a press release from Gjoni, Quinn, and the affected outlets responding to the allegations and then do an over view of what effect will come about after those releases.
It seems to me, that we have tempers and egos colliding to make a long going mess out of what is less than a half dozen articles of story copy.
I'm for the idea of training ethics into opinion journalists who cover video games, so that they can expand their ability to produce both fact based and opinion based pieces. There are many great ethical reporting standards out there.
If you're in Europe, join the your local unions and follow their standards.
If you're in the United States, I would suggest RTDNA, sure.. that's my union and they are rather good. SPJ is okay too.
Also, if you are a reporter in the United States, you should register with the FCC. Your reporting outlet should have a working and up to date business license, EIN, you should have an account with Lexis Nexis, or a PACER account. You should cover events and build up an honest transparency code for your site. You should keep up to date on laws pertaining to you. Do your photographers know their legal rights in their area?
But all of this discussion does not need to happen at all.
The truth in this issue is that we should not be covering Zoe Quinn's personal life. It is none of our business nor is it important to the coverage of her video game. Now, when the accusations that she "slept her way onto Steam" arose. The reports on it should have read like this:
"Depression Quest game designer, Zoe Quinn, has been accused, by unspecified members of an online forum, of allegedly exchanging unspecified sexual favors for media coverage. These allegations have been interpreted from remarks made about Zoe Quinn from her former boyfriend and fellow game developer; Eron Gjoni.
Game developer Zoe Quinn, and the people she has been allegedly involved with, have denied the accusations. Eron Gjoni has also stated that the allegations may not hold merit. The affected news outlets will put forth revised policies to clarify their standards for avoiding corruption, or the appearance of corruption, in the future.
Following the release of the allegations, Zoe Quinn has allegedly received death threats and online harassment from anonymous sources. After these alleged altercations, many unrelated parties have responded to defend Zoe Quinn in public/private forums, including Twitter, Reddit, and NeoGaf."
Then, if your readers are not satisfied by this, get a press release from Gjoni, Quinn, and the affected outlets responding to the allegations and then do an over view of what effect will come about after those releases.
It seems to me, that we have tempers and egos colliding to make a long going mess out of what is less than a half dozen articles of story copy.
At the end of the day though, if the allegations were true, those involved could just state it and move on. The modern public tends to forgive people, as a whole, for sexual misconduct when it is clearly and contritely stated with an apology. No one cares that Obama smoked pot a few times. Also, we're willing to even forgive drunk drivers who have maintained their sobriety chips with due time. Since the released statements have denied the allegations, there is no story unless there is some sort of legal case over the allegations. If there is no legal case involved or forthcoming, than there is no story past the initial report. Back to our lives, citizens.
boogie2988
Banned
thank you widge.
I don't like the idea of being told that my position in the industry is being harmed, either. I guess people can't trust someone who occasionally posts to a image board sometimes. Or maybe they can't trust them for posting to gaf? or maybe they're just looking for reasons to not trust me.
At the end of the day though I just go back to doing what I always do. Trying to influence moderate gamers to think for themselves, vote with their wallets, and be kind to each other. If I get burnt for that I'm glad to burn. If it pleases some people in the industry to see me continue to do that without using the hashtag, then what harm is there in that?
Opinionatedfish
Member
thank you widge.
I don't like the idea of being told that my position in the industry is being harmed, either. I guess people can't trust someone who occasionally posts to a image board sometimes. Or maybe they can't trust them for posting to gaf? or maybe they're just looking for reasons to not trust me.
At the end of the day though I just go back to doing what I always do. Trying to influence moderate gamers to think for themselves, vote with their wallets, and be kind to each other. If I get burnt for that I'm glad to burn. If it pleases some people in the industry to see me continue to do that without using the hashtag, then what harm is there in that?
This goes back to fact-based and opinion journalism. Fact Based is cut and dry, but online personalities like yourself flavor their product with opinion journalism as part of their trade. People just want a reason to say that your opinion is lesser to their own. Just stick to your guns on this one. Your opinion is your opinion and if people think less of you for that, fuck 'em. They were never your customers or your audience.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Maybe I'm off base, but wasn't the root of #GamerGate completely about the Zoe Quinn incident? As in, that was the thing that started the hash tag in the first place? From my understanding, that's the one that requires you to assume she basically prostituted herself for good Kotaku coverage that never actually materialized, and was based entirely off a blog post of her ex boyfriend.
You can't really use that as an example of problems with game journalism ethics when that whole thing is based on the sexist premise of a women using her sex to deceive. So I can't really accept the idea that most of the #gamergate people are out doing good things, when the entire foundation of the whole thing is just bad.
I really do want to make more journalists of all types focus more on corruption with the knowledge that corruption goes beyond simple quid pro quo, but I don't think there is any way you could possibly do it with a hashtag that was tainted with sexism from its very conception.
You can't really use that as an example of problems with game journalism ethics when that whole thing is based on the sexist premise of a women using her sex to deceive. So I can't really accept the idea that most of the #gamergate people are out doing good things, when the entire foundation of the whole thing is just bad.
I really do want to make more journalists of all types focus more on corruption with the knowledge that corruption goes beyond simple quid pro quo, but I don't think there is any way you could possibly do it with a hashtag that was tainted with sexism from its very conception.
Yeahhh...I still love TP a lot but there were big issues there for sure.
Part of being a big fan of Zelda has involved being slapped in the face all the time. I respect Nintendo a bit more now, because I realize they like to do their own thing...but holy cow did they screw around with my emotions. Space World 2000 had me melting in my seat. And then Wind Waker happened and completely back handed me. Then after that Nintendo promised a hardcore revolution...and we got the Wii. I'm so used to getting completely trashed as a dedicated fan...that I've learned to lean back, and give some respect for Nintendo despite the fact that they have a blatant disregard for my feelings.
:C
I'd like to see where we go from here, because I'd love to see western titles take more chances and maybe embrace riskier game genres with riskier story-telling/characters.
boogie2988
Banned
I approach my job in two different ways.
First, I always want to make sure that the gaming industry is lucrative and that good products sell and bad ones don't. My primary purpose is to absolutely inform my watcher and help them arrive at their own decisions about a product, while also helping them find the GREAT games and avoid the BAD ones.
My second objective is to be as entertaining as humanly possible while doing so, and also sneak in as much kindness and validation into their lives as I possibly can.
In this me and most gaming websites are the same. We want to help the consumer and entertain them at the same time. The websites who do this without resorting to clickbaiting and bullshit I will defend with my dying breath.
While I am not perfect I believe that if more people approached gaming in this way we'd have a lot less gamergate going on and a lot more playing of games, but who am I to judge.
No, it was coined by Adam Baldwin as a reaction to the "death of gamers" articles. The roots of it stretch back as far as Anita S's original video and the reception of it. I think the press have been building to a point where they have wanted to attack the negative portion of gamers (which was where the articles were aimed) and that portion was wanting to attack back. In the middle of it all are a bunch of well meaning people who want to pluck the salient positive points to take forward but it's a mess. A proper mess.
And hence we have war.
Gamergate itself, regarding Zoe and Anita, fluctuates between not being about them and then suddenly being about them. Depends on what sort of news is floating around at the time and what extreme segment is doing the talking.
I've said before, the struggle for legitimacy will be like Sinn Fein / Hamas. The political side will have an absolute nightmare thanks to the militant side that just wants to take stuff down.
I feel like Wind Waker itself could have been amazing if its production weren't rushed. Now it stands as the weakest 3d Zelda in my opinion because of it. Nevertheless, I think it is a very charming and enjoyable game with a story that tugged my heart at the very end, and I appreciate that Nintendo loves to change things up in Zelda every game. No two Zelda games are alike, in my opinion. Even Majora's Mask to Ocarina, which while looking the same, the difference couldn't be any starker. That is why I love the Zelda franchise. There is a game for everyone because of its variety.
Opinionatedfish
Member
This is a good Standards Code right here. Clearly define what your outlet does and will do in the future. If more outlets defined what they offer in a better way, we would have less vitriol. Although, there will always be vitriol in some parts of the internet. You can't have the Ying without the Yang, so to speak.
boogie2988
Banned
thank you. We have seen some publications make posts like this in the past few weeks. Some of them have been just brushed over non-arguments that repeat standard rhetoric. A rare few have been genuine mission statements and those are breath taking.
If anyone in the industry still believes my opinion to be valid, if every publication this week would make such a mission statement (leaving out the rhetoric and bullshit) it would go a very long way to allowing moderate gamers involved in this thing feel very good about those sites.
Zelda fans are crazy...and I'm no different. We get heated about our games. And I definitely believe OoT and MM had somethig incredibly special going on. o___o
But even more generally, there are so many stories of children with cancer playing games that keep their hope and courage up. That is an incredible gift that games do very naturally.
From Eiji Aonuma's fan letters:
Yes! Therapy games are big. Or they will be. But they probably won't all be commercial products to buy at leisure.
But even more generally, there are so many stories of children with cancer playing games that keep their hope and courage up. That is an incredible gift that games do very naturally.
From Eiji Aonuma's fan letters:
I know this isn't really a discussion about the pros and cons of anonymity or any such things, but as the "status" of gamergate is more or less the same as it was a while ago, one could maybe discuss what effects and premises play a role in how the whole thing has unfolded. Because I think besides the discussion about journalism ethics that allegedly should be part of gamergate, it's also a "nice" starting point for everything going wrong in human-human communication on the Internet.
As for the anonymity part, I somewhat doubt that anonymity itself is really that big of a problem. I mean, just look at hateful Facebook comments. While you could argue that these are still pseudonymous rather than based on real names because there isn't anything to prove someone's using their real name, I find everything bolded in your quote on Facebook as well, also from people (supposedly) using their actual names. At least for me it's not really surprising that a lot of harassment is carried out on the so-called "social" media. Notice the emphasis, because yes, it's definitely "orchestrated" from somewhere else.
On the other hand, this isn't really a problem on NeoGAF, despite everything being (mostly) pseudonymous. So maybe the answer is that a stricter moderation policy is what is missing from those sites promoting harassment? Or really a moderation policy of any kind, as seemingly there's only one on Facebook when someone dares to show too much on pictures of him or herself.
But what about the people that actually harass other people? It's not like anything I said before was actually needed if people refrained from harassing others. Well, that's the big question, isn't it? Not only regarding gamergate, but actually relating to every single human-human communication on the Internet. I really don't how many people are actual arseholes and how many just want to "troll" and maybe don't see that there's a human being on the receiving end. Or maybe they do it because they don't have to fear any "real" repercussions. I also don't know whether it's just a very vocal but very small minority or it's a widespread phenomenon.
What to actually do about them besides moderation? I don't know. Every person has every right not to be harassed, but I don't want an Internet tied to your very existence (i.e. getting rid of anonymity in the most drastic way) as the solution to the problem. I think that could actually make things worse. It also can't be a solution to make everything completely anonymous (or highly pseudonymous, i.e. everyone has several identities). That would more or less be like going back to pre-social media times, as at least in my view people tended to "cloak" themselves more back then and made fewer connections to their real life.
So maybe we just need more information symmetry between people? If everyone is anonymous it's hard to harass one single person out of the anonymity set, likewise it falls back on you if everyone can track your harassment back. At least hopefully that would be the case. But I don't really know how you would achieve information symmetry. I also don't think it would be fair in all discussions, simply because one of anonymity's biggest advantages is that it can give power to the powerless, especially when dealing with powerful people.
Until we know what the end goal actually should be, "social" media getting proper methods to deal with abuse would probably be the best temporary solution.
Since I have admitted to participating in 4chan threads I can shine some light on that for you. Many people will disagree with what I have to say and more will hate it, but I think its important to say anyways.
For many of the people involved this is on longer about 'harassment' or 'zoe' or 'anita' or anything like that. Its about trying to spark a discussion between gamers (the customers) and the press (the people selling ad space to them).
Many of us agree that there is a happy medium that can be found that still allows the gaming journalism industry to be loose and profitable while still being more transparent and integral. I agree with this vast majority.
There is yet a smaller minority who disagree that there's ever a chance we'll find that middle ground and they would just love to watch the whole thing burn. I absolutely disagree with these people and spend the majority of my time participating in those threads expressing how wrong that is. Even if they were right, how harmful and unkind such a goal is and it should never become the goal of the movement.
I personally think number scores are the worst thing to happen to the gaming industry. I personally prefer Kotaku's approach to reviews. "Should you play this game? Yes, no, wait." Its the perfect scoring system that prevents hype and really informs the consumer. Its these types of things most moderates want to see continue and come to light
Hmm as someone who isn't very active in twitter and only recently browsed the hash tag. I respectfully disagree. I didn't see much positivity on it. I saw people accusing Anita over lying to the police. I ended up opening the profile of a Milo. Who was accusing and making bad jokes. A guy who apparently is totally awesome even though he is not a gamer. But that seems to be okay.
As a female outsider who casually browsed twitter. I feel a lot worse about my hobby and I'm really not feeling any positivity.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
I see, but Adam Baldwin's tweets seem to all be about feminism, which really only relates to people like Zoe and Anita, and so it still seems those two incidents are the root of the hashtag. It's not like feminism is what was behind Microsoft funding a Polygon documentary. Anyone acting like that hashtag is anything else seems to be the ones cooping the movement for their own reasons.
I consider myself a pretty intelligent person, which is why at this stage I think that there is something wrong with me. I really don't understand this whole thing very well, it's probably because I don't go on twitter or 4chan I guess. Also despite looking it wasn't until today that I found an article that actually explains this all in a concise way.
I really love games, I just want to see this industry grow and grow. Like most people here. That is never going to change, I feel like we are always waiting for the next big thing and the industry is always evolving unlike anything in this world. With the recent exception of destiny (the beta gave me all i felt i needed to know), I check a wide range of reviews and game play and form an opinion. There has never really been a time where I have had a bad experience with any purchases I have made like this (This might be because i'm either lucky or overexcited about this all?) and 2014 and 2015 seem amazing to me, I really can't wait. I feel like a lot of journalists, at least the ones I listen too feel the same way.
Anyway, it got me thinking about this... I would really love if NeoGaf users had an opportunity to give a game a score in a sub section and even that sub sectioned off into categories basted on what kind of games the user is familiar with. Despite some trolling, I trust this place the most and this is something I would love to see.
I also wanted to say thanks to boogie for your input on this forum. I don't always agree with you, but I think you are a truly inspirational and amazing person.
I really love games, I just want to see this industry grow and grow. Like most people here. That is never going to change, I feel like we are always waiting for the next big thing and the industry is always evolving unlike anything in this world. With the recent exception of destiny (the beta gave me all i felt i needed to know), I check a wide range of reviews and game play and form an opinion. There has never really been a time where I have had a bad experience with any purchases I have made like this (This might be because i'm either lucky or overexcited about this all?) and 2014 and 2015 seem amazing to me, I really can't wait. I feel like a lot of journalists, at least the ones I listen too feel the same way.
Anyway, it got me thinking about this... I would really love if NeoGaf users had an opportunity to give a game a score in a sub section and even that sub sectioned off into categories basted on what kind of games the user is familiar with. Despite some trolling, I trust this place the most and this is something I would love to see.
I also wanted to say thanks to boogie for your input on this forum. I don't always agree with you, but I think you are a truly inspirational and amazing person.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought this was the first use of the hashtag:
Doesn't look very Death Of Gamers-ey to me.
Which was posted around the same time as, if the IRC logs are to be taken at face value, those few anti-Quinn/Sarkeesian folks were working - to not much efffect up to that point - on their TheZoePost-based character attack. That this group was engaging in sockpuppeteering, astroturfing and \v\-mobilising isn't up to dispute, right? It's just a matter of to what degree was their steering effective compared to the sole reach of Baldwin's twitter account.
JesseEwiak
Member
Again, I'm always amused when I see this idea. Because go look at the GOTY votes in NeoGAF, then compare them to top 10 lists of various sites around the Internet. They actually usually line up pretty well. For all the hate, Mass Effect 3 was in the top 5 the year it came out. Skyrim, if you listen to the people who post about, is barely worth a dollar, but when it came out, it did well in the GOTY voting here.
The dirty little secret, is that the people who rail against AAA games are loud here, but they're still in the minority if you actually look at the votes.
I feel like maybe this is unhealthy to keep boogie going, but I do have one thing to say to all his very well detailed posts:
The impression I get with a lot of your posts here - this sort of aggressively passive ghandi schtick - is all well and good. I appreciate the sentiment. But it does seem to me that a lot of this is dressing made to try to make your actions always seem as inoffensive as possible, as if you're just a bystander to this whole mess.
Boogie, whether you like it or not, you're a voice in this industry now. What do people expect of you? To be a voice that is not afraid to shy away from doing the right thing even when it's hard. Right now, you feel - by your own words - assaulted somehow, harassed into a certain action. Whether you think that action is right or not, it seems clear to me you do not. You repeatedly keep saying "I still don't know how using the hashtag makes me the same as those assholes", like a mantra, showing you are missing fundamental pieces of why this is a problem.
So you go on 4chan, and then you make it seem like your heart is not really in any of this. You're just disassociating with this #gamegate not because you think it is right but because you think it's the easiest course of action for you now.
When you go on 4chan or elsewhere and use terminology like "conspiracyfags" (like another poster on here pointed out you did), whether it's a 4chan thing or not, it's hurtful. When you entrench yourself in this ideology that it's us-vs.-them, gamers-vs.the-world, then it's hard to understand beyond that.
I always said I wasn't a fan of your humour videos and that I really liked you as a person given your whiteboard video of how you grew up. You seemed strong and you rose above all that vitriol and you became someone who carved out your own wonderful place in this world.
But that comes with responsibility.
I guess I sort of just expected you to be more responsible.
The impression I get with a lot of your posts here - this sort of aggressively passive ghandi schtick - is all well and good. I appreciate the sentiment. But it does seem to me that a lot of this is dressing made to try to make your actions always seem as inoffensive as possible, as if you're just a bystander to this whole mess.
Boogie, whether you like it or not, you're a voice in this industry now. What do people expect of you? To be a voice that is not afraid to shy away from doing the right thing even when it's hard. Right now, you feel - by your own words - assaulted somehow, harassed into a certain action. Whether you think that action is right or not, it seems clear to me you do not. You repeatedly keep saying "I still don't know how using the hashtag makes me the same as those assholes", like a mantra, showing you are missing fundamental pieces of why this is a problem.
So you go on 4chan, and then you make it seem like your heart is not really in any of this. You're just disassociating with this #gamegate not because you think it is right but because you think it's the easiest course of action for you now.
When you go on 4chan or elsewhere and use terminology like "conspiracyfags" (like another poster on here pointed out you did), whether it's a 4chan thing or not, it's hurtful. When you entrench yourself in this ideology that it's us-vs.-them, gamers-vs.the-world, then it's hard to understand beyond that.
I always said I wasn't a fan of your humour videos and that I really liked you as a person given your whiteboard video of how you grew up. You seemed strong and you rose above all that vitriol and you became someone who carved out your own wonderful place in this world.
But that comes with responsibility.
I guess I sort of just expected you to be more responsible.
boogie2988
Banned
I understand this and I'm very sorry for that. Its people like you who feel this way that keep me up at night, keep me involved in this thing, and keep fighting for you. I don't know if it helps but it helps me feel better about myself, at least.
boogie2988
Banned
First thanks for considering my health, you are awesome. feeling a ton better than last week so lets see where this leads us.
I hope that you understand that the sentiment I am attempting to express here is not window dressing. It is as real to me as my own body is real to me. I would swear on anything you can name that I say this things with honesty and sincerity.
You said "Boogie, whether you like it or not, you're a voice in this industry now. What do people expect of you? To be a voice that is not afraid to shy away from doing the right thing even when it's hard."
which is exactly why I posted on 4chan, and exactly why I am posting back in here. I am getting reinvolved because I am not afraid any longer to shy away from doing the right thing.
I STILL Do not understand how using the same hashtag as someone makes me the same monster they are. I'm going to keep repeating that because to me it is entirely nonsensical. I have probably used the same hashtag as Ray Rice, I'd sooner kill myself than raise a hand to my wife. To imply otherwise is lunacy.
You said "When you go on 4chan or elsewhere and use terminology like "conspiracyfags" (like another poster on here pointed out you did), whether it's a 4chan thing or not, it's hurtful. When you entrench yourself in this ideology that it's us-vs.-them, gamers-vs.the-world, then it's hard to understand beyond that."
There is no us vs them, only to people that want there to be. To me there is only us. Again with this 'ghandi-like window dressing' but that remains true in my heart and in my actions. You can not believe it all you want but it doesnt change.
When I speak here at neogaf I'll use this lingo. I'll communicate using the same language and memes as you do. When I post on reddit I'll do the same. When I post on 4chan I'll do the same. The term "Conspiracyfag" means something terrible to you here and I accept that. On 4chan it only means "A member of this forum that is good at figuring out hidden agendas" and nothing more. To imply otherwise is lunacy to me, but then again I understand the forum. If you don't post there I don't expect anyone to get it, and that's fine. I choose my words carefully and I'm glad to defend it when necessary. It should be obvious to anyone that I'd sooner cut out my own tongue than use that word against another human being as an actual slur.
You said that you expected me to be responsible. In my mind and in my efforts I am being as responsible as a person who INSISTS on moderating this whole mess can possibly be. The concept of doing it seems tantamount to suicide at this point, so I guess its not that responsible but I'm doing it none the less.
Its not that I'm not being responsible, I'm just not adhereing to your standards on that issue and that's not something I can help.
I appreciate your post either way and while we'll have to agree to disagree on some points, I appreciate your candor.
None was disrespectful to Boogie. I would bet that this thread must be the most moderated thread of this forum in the last few weeks, if someone was insulting or strongarming Boogie it would be instantly shutdown by a mod. If there were PM harassing him then contact a mod to handle those. There were several people trying to reason with Boogie. The paranoid remarks from some are referring to the fear that Boogie seems to have that the "gamers are dead" line of reasoning has indeed any power to kill the gamer culture as he perceives it. That culture is dying because of its inherit insularity and big video games publishers companies had to expand their line of products to new target audiences as the core gamers weren't enough to sustain their business. Those articles are just pointing that out with more or less stronger words. People that happen to play video games without identifying themselves as gamers are becoming more and more important to the industry than people that identify themselves as such. And that is not because of Leigh Alexander articles. She's just stating a fact. The AAA business is contracting, the mobile games space is expanding. The figure of the core gamer that follows the industry, the hype cycles, E3, pre-orders AAA games or buys them day one at full price is dying because they're not enough to sustain that space. The irony though is that to try to make it sustainable (don't know for how long though) the industry should be actively working to be more inclusive and represent the audience that doesn't yet play those games in the most inviting way possible and this sort of campaigns as #gamergate, the targeted harassment to an individual female developer, and the personal attacks Sarkesian suffers are just counterproductive to that. So they are just speeding up the "gamers" isolation and tarnishing their image.
boogie2988
Banned
I disagree with a lot of what Corto has to say but I agree with this. Any and all statements made were within the moderation guidelines of neogaf.
They just weren't very nice. but i'm used to that.
Widge it was good to see you mention Jenni Goodchild's work last page but I thought I'd reiterate that it's very very interesting and people should check out a few of the topics she's covered with Gamergate people.
https://pixietalksgamergate.wordpress.com/
The survey she's asking people to fill out is on this main page, with the answer subjects being broken up into the categories on the right, with the most complete collection of answers always in the top post of a category.
So far it's been a pretty great insight into the kind of thinking going on behind the noise of the tag in general.
I have a pretty low opinion of the origins of the tag, and any attempts to establish its legitimacy. It was born out of misogyny and bigoted hatred, and no matter how many good intentioned people have been caught up with it it's not going to remove that stain. It's a worthy aim to try and take this broken, bile-filled thing and try and heal it and use it as a force for good but I feel pretty comfortable saying it's an impossible task. Try shifting over to #Gameethics, started by Rami Ismail, who so far as I can see, has not stopped trying to productively engage the well-intentioned elements of Gamergate.
I also know for a fact that many, maybe even most people, just aren't up on the knowledge of its origins, or the cruel, hate-filled people who started it, remain part of it, and some still think are steering it. These people aren't bigots, for the most part. From what I've seen on twitter and from these surveys they're largely well-intentioned but misguided.
I for one am strangely relieved to know that it is mostly ignorance (which I'm not using here as any kind of denigration. Everyone is ignorant about most things) driving this whole deal and not necessarily outright hatred.
https://pixietalksgamergate.wordpress.com/
The survey she's asking people to fill out is on this main page, with the answer subjects being broken up into the categories on the right, with the most complete collection of answers always in the top post of a category.
So far it's been a pretty great insight into the kind of thinking going on behind the noise of the tag in general.
I have a pretty low opinion of the origins of the tag, and any attempts to establish its legitimacy. It was born out of misogyny and bigoted hatred, and no matter how many good intentioned people have been caught up with it it's not going to remove that stain. It's a worthy aim to try and take this broken, bile-filled thing and try and heal it and use it as a force for good but I feel pretty comfortable saying it's an impossible task. Try shifting over to #Gameethics, started by Rami Ismail, who so far as I can see, has not stopped trying to productively engage the well-intentioned elements of Gamergate.
I also know for a fact that many, maybe even most people, just aren't up on the knowledge of its origins, or the cruel, hate-filled people who started it, remain part of it, and some still think are steering it. These people aren't bigots, for the most part. From what I've seen on twitter and from these surveys they're largely well-intentioned but misguided.
I for one am strangely relieved to know that it is mostly ignorance (which I'm not using here as any kind of denigration. Everyone is ignorant about most things) driving this whole deal and not necessarily outright hatred.
There is a segment pushing Boogie's side of things as well - Brad Wardell in particular has been pumping out a few articles on his opinion site that I mostly agree with. I do think he goes in hard on SJWers, but given the abuse he suffered a few years ago (including from ZQ), it's understandable on his part. He has been defending LA during all of this, and I remember LA being one of the few on the SJW side of things actually being fair to him during the whole false lawsuit- where he said he received a couple of credible death threats, and a bunch of non-credible ones , from SJWs.
boogie2988
Banned
I don't know that I would agree with everything Brad would say, especially considering the way you've described it here, but I'd just like to say its nice to see people enter the discussion provided he's doing it kindly and harmlessly.
But again please don't get confused. I have no side in this, unless its both sides.
- Status