Neoriceisgood
Member
I'm not sure, Anita & Leigh Alexander are both pretty high on the Hitler list too.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014
- Thread starter besada
- Start date
- Status
I'm not sure, Anita & Leigh Alexander are both pretty high on the Hitler list too.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
At this point I'm just watching in perverse amusement.
Fucking hell, making Derek Smart speechless is quite the feat.
Neoriceisgood
Member
Wait, isn't that the point of this thread?
I feel like there's got to be something missing here, even though the "aggrieved" GG guy is allegedly the one who posted it. I don't see how anyone can read that and not think the GG guy is a total nutjob. Am I missing these accusations of rape? I swear, I read through it three times.
partyphone
Banned
really?
can't wait for them to try to take the middle position even though it doesn't actually exist and isn't much better than the wrong position.
People think they are defending developers against SJW bullying in all this.
The developers who have engaged almost universally say they are not worried about being bullied by SJWs writing mean articles. They're much more afraid of being bullied by #gamergate.
This is the main point of disconnect that I see.
The developers who have engaged almost universally say they are not worried about being bullied by SJWs writing mean articles. They're much more afraid of being bullied by #gamergate.
This is the main point of disconnect that I see.
Neoriceisgood
Member
... 4chan did the same thing with those ridiculous chat logs about harassing Zoe Quinn. Logic is not the strong point for most of these people.
http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2hwlpj/here_is_a_leak_of_jimmy_wales_talking_about/
To their credit, the top comments do agree that he went off the deep end.
The Blackrose
Member
Ditto. Pass the popcorn.
Watching Derek Smart dodge that thread alone was worth it.
I didn't see it either
But I did see Leigh Alexander being called "like the Antichrist", so there's that.
Yeah, that's a huge part of it. Though, the ones that do realize this is true are the ones who are trying to boycott western games in favor of Japanese games because they think Japanese devs have no morality.
I have consistently maintained that this is the best approach to take.
Basically, they take any association of the movement with those who issued rape and death threats as an accusation of those things directed at themselves.
I haven't yet been able to figure out what kind of proportion are just unaware of the movement's origins, how many are in active denial, and how many are fully aware but continuing to mask it.
Errrr, no, our justice system is not actually very effective at changing behavior.
What IS effective at changing behavior is social pressure and the threat of ostracization, which comes about as a side-effect of the justice system, but the actual threat of being incarcerated doesn't actually have a noticeable effect on crime rates. Hence, the best way to deal with this behavior is for absolutely everyone to make it abundantly clear that such behavior is unacceptable. If someone acts that way, looks around, and realizes that no one is supporting them, they will have no choice but to adapt or be squashed under the pressure.
It should be noted that this is considerably less effective when the one performing the criminal behavior has a support system in the form of like-minded individuals, which is part of the reason why the justice system is ineffective at combating such behavior. Many such individuals live among others who espouse those very same views, which reinforces that behavior as being acceptable. It's a slow and ongoing battle to correct such behavior.
Wow this guy thought Jimmy Wales would side with him?
I don't understand this insanity at all
VibratingDonkey
Member
Oh who knows. It's such an unfocused mess sprawling its tentacles all over everywhere at various indiscriminate times.
I remember Giant Bomb saying they would not review...something. Bastion? Must've been Bastion. There are instances where it makes sense. Either because of the perception of impropriety that it could create, or because they feel they can't honestly review the thing in an impartial manner. Then there are instances like Adam Boyes and John Drake (and Kessler) starting to work for Sony, but that doesn't mean they should stop covering Sony stuff, because that's stupid.
Also, I checked one of GB's reviews of a Harmonix game, and it has a disclosure disclaimer. I'm of the opinion that it takes zero effort or anything at all to just slap one of those on there, so if there's a chance of a legitimate perception of iffiness (not "these guys talked on Twitter!" rubbish), just do it. There's no reason not to as far as I can think of.
Patreon is questionable when it's developers giving money to writers, not the other way around. Others have made the argument that writers giving money to creative people they like and believe in, is anti-corruption. But if sites want to make guidelines and rules about Patreon then, eh, their call.
Oh, I hadn't much considered his actual position and probably added more weight to this than I should have. My bad.
LiegeWaffle
Member
That page got me for a moment... I started feeling extremely frustrated on the words "Hello Kitty", only to realize they were being sarcastic.
While it is occasionally useful to explain people that the words they say may be perceived differently from how they intend them to, doing that requires an actual ability to hold a conversation (as opposed to whatever you want to call the events depicted in the screenshot).
I like how self-proclaimed anti-SJW suddenly start to care about transgender issues when they need to attack someone.
Meanwhile, they're still championing Milo.
The Blackrose
Member
Meanwhile, Milo rubs his hands together over the amount of
Neoriceisgood
Member
They've got a vested interest in showing the "SJW" "professional victim" people to be hypocrites. This is usually part of a twofold strategy:
1. They hope to turn "SJWs" against eachother and isolate them from their own group.
2. They want to point out the "SJW"s "do it too"/"are just as bad" to deflect criticism.
The issue of course, is that usually when you look up close at what they're complaining about it is obviously about isolated incidents that are quite often not about discrimination. (e.g. people calling GG a bunch of white dudes.)
Above all it's almost always individual cases they bring up soley to contrast themselves to SJW in the same way anti-sjw often speak up about male rape only to dismiss discussions of female rape cases.
They generally ignore or outright deny systemic discrimination (and consider talk of this to be discriminatory in itself) and instead focus on weird individual cases that are extremely vague.
tonysidaway
Member
It does sound odd, but in discussion with antifeminists in secular movements I've often encountered such jujitsu methods. While the basis for such accusions is often unsound, it's good practice to question one's attitude and reconsider how one's own behaviour might appear to third parties.
denshuu
Member
They already have Matt and Trey's death threats written up in notepad, ready to tweet at exactly 10:01 PM tomorrow.
tonysidaway
Member
Thanks. It's good to see a more detailed and nuanced perspective.
really?
He's not talking about an upcoming episode. He's talking about the season premiere from last week, which he's somehow interpreting as a GamerGate allegory.
tonysidaway
Member
Oh that makes more sense.
Go Fund Yourself is Season 18 premiere.
The premise is a Kickstarter campaign named after the Washington Redskins. No ostensible connection to recent events on 4chan and Twitter.
Wait, really?
Dammit, and I was looking forward to an epic episode tomorrow.
But....holy shit. GamerGate didn't remotely cross my mind during that first episode. That episode was fucking incredible and one of their best episodes, but I cannot comprehend how deluded you have to be to assume that ISIS + Kickstarter + Redskins + NFL in general has anything to do with GamerGate at all.
Dammit, and I was looking forward to an epic episode tomorrow.
But....holy shit. GamerGate didn't remotely cross my mind during that first episode. That episode was fucking incredible and one of their best episodes, but I cannot comprehend how deluded you have to be to assume that ISIS + Kickstarter + Redskins + NFL in general has anything to do with GamerGate at all.
Really not sure a sane person would ever make those connections.
Simply Sarah
Member
*stares*
Is this just one very confused person/troll or is this something people somehow believe? Like, you can only stretch things so far before they snap.
I like how every time a GamerGater can't argue without foaming at the mouth it's rationalised as being because the opposition set up a trap or mind game or whatever.
What the hell.
tonysidaway
Member
Here's a serious question. I've frequently been surprised to see Gamergate framed as an issue of two "sides" rather than a movement (however decentralised, however riddled with contradiction and misconceptions) lashing out in many directions at once.
Does anybody see an opposition that is actively engaging Gamergate? If so, how can I distinguish these people from those who find the sight of an internet bullying campaign offensive?
Does anybody see an opposition that is actively engaging Gamergate? If so, how can I distinguish these people from those who find the sight of an internet bullying campaign offensive?
Neoriceisgood
Member
In Gamergate's eyes: The opposition is a large group of well connected S.J.Ws and S.J.W. Journalists who all band together to force feminism upon gaming.
In reality: The opposition is essentially anyone who knows about GG and doesn't partake, this includes:
1. silent devs
2. silent journalists
3. people who find their arguments ridiculous
4. people who think GG is actively harmful
5. people who find the harassment so bad it poisons GG
6. a lot of feminists
7. any journalist/feminist they explicitly hate e.g. zoe, anita,alexander
8. any site/forum that has banned discussion of GG (this is why 4chan and parts of reddit are seen as "Sjw")
^
All of the above are declared a "side/ideology" by GGers, which makes policing the "opposition" difficult as Raph mentioned before, aside from a few vocal individual voices (neogaf, jenni goodchild, the people who got harassed by GG, etc) "anti-GG" has like 10 vaguely defined faces and no organization at all.
There are not two sides.
The idea was that the crazy feminists were ruining everything and saying hurtful things so we dun fucked'm up good. But extremes are bad, the truth is somewhere inbetween, right? maybe we should all be respectful of peoples views. The press also says extreme stuff, rightguys? again, the truth must be inbetween.
The sides kinda conformed to the narrative as it evolved, but it was a device for GG to claim some moral ground for the movement as they targeted groups. There has been no debate, but there has been an effort to shift the ideology away from... something.
Edit:
I hope what the effect ends up being is that the very complaints GG has been targetting are vetted by this 'movement' instead of harmed, and we stop accepting the warped thinking that started GG as part of the culture.
https://twitter.com/PixieJenni has done a good job documenting various sides and people in #gamergate, as well as engaging in dialog on twitter.
See here: http://pixietalksgamergate.wordpress.com/ for a roundup a various issues.
See here: http://pixietalksgamergate.wordpress.com/ for a roundup a various issues.
Lol Wales's first sentence to this loon:
Jimbo Dubs said:
Wonder why he thought he had to "write simply".
I was considering listening to one of those but then I read Milo's "beta male feminists desperate for sex" column and I almost vomited...
Is it in any way not just hateful bullshit and slurs?
I haven't actually listened to it myself.
I just heard on Twitter that there were dragon dildos involved, so I skipped around until I found the ad (about eight minutes in if you're curious).
tonysidaway
Member
Thanks to Neoriceisgood and Vlade for the perspectives on opposition. Earlier I characterised Gamergate as essentially a reactionary movement. In that view, there is no single opposition; the movement is simply opposed to whatever it is that provokes anxiety in those who tend to prefer a stable status quo. I think events have conformed to that initial model. Gamergate has tended to alienate those groups it came into contact with, eventually sorting each new enemy group into the catch-all "SJW" category.
Ironically, in the early days the only enemy was a single independent game developer, and a common slogan was "Zoe Quinn against the entire internet." As the enemies list has grown, the narrative has switched to a brave though embattled selection of enlightened fighters against the multiple tentacles of the corrupt, cunning though curiously inept, worldwide SJW conspiracy. This one is going to collapse under the weight of its own absurdity.
Ironically, in the early days the only enemy was a single independent game developer, and a common slogan was "Zoe Quinn against the entire internet." As the enemies list has grown, the narrative has switched to a brave though embattled selection of enlightened fighters against the multiple tentacles of the corrupt, cunning though curiously inept, worldwide SJW conspiracy. This one is going to collapse under the weight of its own absurdity.
Sums it up well,
Thanks for the updates about the "tell me anything" guys. Gamergate is laughable at this point.
And this Milo character is totally taking advantage of them.
Like any good conspiracy, it survives by adding more to the conspiracy. But eventually it collapses once the conspiracy is the only thing left.
Again, "maybe it's me"?
Again, "maybe it's me"?
Heh.
For the record, I like Derek Smart. I engaged in a conversation about one of his games, All Aspect Warfare and expected a toasting from reputation. Instead he was actually really engaging and polite. Yes he can, and does go off on one quite a lot but he is perfectly capable of reasonable behaviour.
Which is why he avoided that thread like the plague, of course!
Darkmakaimura
Can You Imagine What SureAI Is Going To Do With Garfield?
Edit: Posted a video I liked. Not a good debater myself and made mistake of just posting the link. My bad.
Especially when it's a 3-hour long video.
I'm only skimming through a few minutes, but a few highlights
-A self-identified MRA and anti-feminist who thinks "men shouldn't have to apologize for being male"
-An "egalitarian feminist" opposed to "SJWs" and "radical feminism"
-Women praising Eron and criticizing Zoe Quinn
-"I'M not bothered by how women are represented in games, so therefore it's not a problem!"
What new insights do you think are actually offered here?
Darkmakaimura
Can You Imagine What SureAI Is Going To Do With Garfield?
Fair enough. I really don't want to get into the debate and I just stink terribly when it comes to debating anything. I liked the video and agreed with most of what was said. I was even hesitant to post anything here but I'd prefer not getting banned, especially considering I have a good track record as it is of keeping out of trouble so if need be I'll just go ahead and edit my post.
- Status