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I posted an image of topless man & women on Facebook, was removed

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Real question. If it were legal for women to be topless, just like men, tomorrow, would anything really change? Would there be change a year from now? 5 years? A decade?

This is totally a Catch 22. Female are breasts have laws preventing their exposure

It is legal most places. This thread is about the social acceptability of doing so.


Yeah. No woman feels that way now, because everyone isn't doing it. The vast majority of women, even where it's legal, want to wear clothes. If this ever changes, there will absolutely be girls and women who feel pressure to go topless and it will be an extension of how we all wear skinny jeans and mid-drift shirts. Women don't naturally gravitate to tight/ short clothing, we're all taught that these are the appropriate styles for us and we adopt it to fit in.

I'm just skeptical whether this is really about freeing women, or if tight jeans and mid-drifts shirts just aren't enough for the fellas any more.

I see your point, but I don't know of anywhere that men have to go topless. Most men enjoy being topless at places like the beach or swimming pool, but do they feel pressured to do so? Many men I see there still wear a T shirt or rashguard.
 
My point is that you could have the same number of men who wants to walk around with their penises hanging without the same thing happening. Or hey, those who don't want to told they have to get a haircut or shave every time they leave their home. Or people who want to be fat without being fat-shamed. Or adults who want to have a strictly platonic relationship with children without being called paedophiles.

The above examples are immoral or moral behaviour, it doesn't matter though because your argument is to "at least have the option", which isn't valid enough to get people to change their reaction. Which is why I am actually a little offended you mentioned same-sex couples holding hands or interracial couples. It's not for the sake of having the option.

So no, it's not enough for society.

First: It's utterly ridiculous that you and other people keep comparing genitals to breasts. I'm not even going to get into debating whether or not genitals should be "OK" to expose because that's not what's being discussed here.

Second: Your points here aren't making much sense to me. Are you saying that long/messy hair, being overweight, and being social with kids are all bad and just as bad as someone wanting to walk around with their dick out? Something else?

You can't expect every rule to have a clear cut scientific reason, otherwise that rule shouldn't exist. Common sense is a thing. Without it how could we ever discourage anyone doing anything?

"Common sense" is what justified women not being able to vote. It's what justified segregation. It's what justified anti-miscegenation laws. It's what justified horrible treatment of LGBT people. Appealing to "common sense" is an utterly useless exercise.
 

Prototype

Member
Yeah. No woman feels that way now, because everyone isn't doing it. The vast majority of women, even where it's legal, want to wear clothes. If this ever changes, there will absolutely be girls and women who feel pressure to go topless and it will be an extension of how we all wear skinny jeans and mid-drift shirts. Women don't naturally gravitate to tight/ short clothing, we're all taught that these are the appropriate styles for us and we adopt it to fit in.

I'm just skeptical whether this is really about freeing women, or if tight jeans and mid-drifts shirts just aren't enough for the fellas any more.
You could make the argument that makeup, cosmetic surgery and lingerie ect are all actually for men. Women get dressed up and pretty to attract a guy.

Not saying that I believe, but I've heard the argument.
 

Izuna

Banned
Yeah. No woman feels that way now, because everyone isn't doing it. The vast majority of women, even where it's legal, want to wear clothes. If this ever changes, there will absolutely be girls and women who feel pressure to go topless and it will be an extension of how we all wear skinny jeans and mid-drift shirts. Women don't naturally gravitate to tight/ short clothing, we're all taught that these are the appropriate styles for us and we adopt it to fit in.

I'm just skeptical whether this is really about freeing women, or if tight jeans and mid-drifts shirts just aren't enough for the fellas any more.

I am also pretty sure that this image is just parody.

The male support for this, that they wouldn't mind seeing tits, would be like an image with "look at these hot lesbians, support gay rights". It's not right and there should be a real reason behind this if it were to take off.

Which is why it never will.
 
I am also pretty sure that this image is just parody.

The male support for this, that they wouldn't mind seeing tits, would be like an image with "look at these hot lesbians, support gay rights". It's not right and there should be a real reason behind this if it were to take off.

Which is why it never will.

And again you ignore the several women in this thread, myself included, that have stated they think this should be OK.
 

Izuna

Banned
First: It's utterly ridiculous that you and other people keep comparing genitals to breasts. I'm not even going to get into debating whether or not genitals should be "OK" to expose because that's not what's being discussed here.

Second: Your points here aren't making much sense to me. Are you saying that long/messy hair, being overweight, and being social with kids are all bad and just as bad as someone wanting to walk around with their dick out? Something else?


"Common sense" is what justified women not being able to vote. It's what justified segregation. It's what justified anti-miscegenation laws. It's what justified horrible treatment of LGBT people. Appealing to "common sense" is an utterly useless exercise.

I am going to number my responses to each paragraph respectively.

1. Read answer 2

2. I was pretty clear. The reason you have is "just to have the option" and nothing else. I am saying that isn't really a reason to criticise the way society thinks. All of those examples aren't directly comparable unless we only think of them as "why can't it be an option without shame or increased attention". It's not a good reason because it can be used for basically anything. So give an actual real reason other than "just because" -- and never say same-sex or interracial was ever driven by that same reason.

3. Why yes. Common sense is basically what the vast majority's opinion, and they have that opinion only because it's how things are. That's all it is and you're right. Women voting and LGBT right etc. went against common sense, but there was basically no real beneficial reason for them existing other than ignorance and there were so many reasons for them to not exist.

So give me even a few reasons other than "for the sake of having options" for why people of the world should stop finding tits so damn sexy.

And again you ignore the several women in this thread, myself included, that have stated they think this should be OK.

I had to tell off my niece for wanting to run around naked around the house all the time. I know there are girls that don't care if their boobies are showing. We tell women it isn't okay because, well, it isn't okay for like 99.99% of non-perverts. So they up and learn not to.

"Why not?"

This is sooooo separate from any of the other issues you keep trying to compare this to.
 

Slavik81

Member
Can't you say the same thing about men and women being bottomless?
That line of reasoning could be applied to many laws. I think the results work out nicely. Murder, tax evasion and many other crimes can easily be justified. Most indecency laws cannot, be they against topless women, men kissing each other, or basically anything else.

There's a case against sexually harassing individuals with targeted leudness, but a person should otherwise be free to dress however they wish.
 
In cultures around the world where female toplessness is the norm (traditional African and South American cultures), boobs aren't really a thing. In cultures that cover up women entirely, the flash of ankle skin can be considered arousing or even lewd. Don't underestimate how much culture has an impact on what humans consider sexual.
 

Keri

Member
I see your point, but I don't know of anywhere that men have to go topless. Most men enjoy being topless at places like the beach or swimming pool, but do they feel pressured to do so? Many men I see there still wear a T shirt or rashguard.

Well, I don't think men feel very much pressure at all, when it comes to these things. I certainly don't think they're under the same pressure, when it comes to clothing. I see the optimism in striving for the same for women, but I can't help but look at this particular scenario with skepticism.

You could make the argument that makeup, cosmetic surgery and lingerie ect are all actually for men. Women get dressed up and pretty to attract a guy. Not saying that I believe, but I've heard the argument.

There is truth to that argument. A lot of women, myself included, will say they wear make-up for themselves, because of how it makes them feel, but I think we have to admit that our feelings don't form in a vacuum. It makes us feel good about ourselves, in part, because we believe that others (including men) will find it attractive too. We're social creatures and, generally, are deeply influenced by others and the culture around us. If men as a whole decided that make-up was unattractive, the vast majority of women would likely stop wearing it.
 

MIMIC

Banned
First: It's utterly ridiculous that you and other people keep comparing genitals to breasts. I'm not even going to get into debating whether or not genitals should be "OK" to expose because that's not what's being discussed here.

The comparison is being made because breasts are covered up for the very same reason genitals are covered up: they're considered private parts of the body.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
The comparison is being made because breasts are covered up for the very same reason genitals are covered up: they're considered private parts of the body.
I said this exact same thing earlier in the thread. ._.
 
The comparison is being made because breasts are covered up for the very same reason genitals are covered up: they're considered private parts of the body.

...yes, and the entire thing being suggested here is that they shouldn't be. And begging the question to counter that idea isn't a valid response.
 

SapientWolf

Trucker Sexologist
This response and all like it:

Is pretty clear you haven't read thru the thread as I have addressed this. Nice drive by.

It's also not really the point of the conversation.

Thanks for adding nothing to the debate/conversation.
Well, if that point isn't addressed then the text in the image is completely meaningless.

The OP's post doesn't beg the question of topless equality the way the picture does, but there's no easy transition even if the current cultural norm is wrong, by some objective measure. It's not enough to point out that sexualizing breasts is wrong. If people want the social norms to change you either have to desexualize breasts, or argue that it is worse for society as a whole to deny women the benefits of going without a shirt than to allow them to display sexual body parts in public. Breastfeeding won that argument. Wanting a tan? Enjoying the breeze? Less of a clear victory there.
 

Izuna

Banned
...yes, and the entire thing being suggested here is that they shouldn't be. And begging the question in counter that idea isn't a valid response.

Okay.

Why should we find cocks sexual and not tits? Please explain.

Because if men were normally showing cocks you wouldn't have a problem with it.

Or is the only reason why tits aren't sexual and cocks are because you are used to your tits and don't have a cock? That's my guess.

There are cultures where cocks are okay too you know.
 

M.Bluth

Member
I don't understand why there are so many men walking around without a shirt in the first place...

It's probably unfair of me, but I always think "eh, there's another douchebag"
 
girls bein topless is hot and sexual

guys its not

lol, is it really that hard to understand?

So, how many times have you seen topless gifs of Thor, Arrow and Captain America?

Presumably because most women are satisfied enough with the status quo that no one feels the need to change anything.

You know...except for that you are in a thread with people that do and the topless protesters in New York, people like that.

How are people supposed to change the status quo if your attitude is that since it is the status quo that people want it to be the status quo?
 

Syriel

Member

Interesting choice. The first pic had both a good looking man and a good looking woman. Your pic has a not-so-good-looking man and a good looking woman.

Why do some bored individuals want men and women to be exactly the same so much? They arent.

If a woman would walk around topless, she would get harassed by loads of horny teenage dudes and adults. For that reason alone you should avoid it.

No. That's victim blaming. We should be penalizing the "loads of horny teenage dudes and adults" that think it is OK to harass.

I don't see what the big deal of anyone walking around topless is. Breasts are not sexual organs and the male breast isn't either. If people want to walk around topless then more power to them as it shows that they're confident in their bodies.

The problem comes in that rather than people saying, well if men can walk around topless so can women, all that'll happen is nobody willl be allowed to walk around topless. People are far too prude when it comes to our natural form. We treat the human body as it's some kind of magnificent thing and outside of the science behind it, it's not. Our ancestors decided to wear clothes to not die from the cold, but then that turned from the initial purpose to clothes being accesories, and from there we started to hide all the human body away, because it's too lewd to see some skin.

Womens breasts are only a big deal, because we've made them that way. We've spent the past like 1000 years telling people to cover up all their body or they're being immodest.

Except, in the vast majority of the US it is legal for both to be topless. And when laws banning topless women have been challenged, they've been overturned.

Society has changed the law already, and what you predict did not happen.

Women can do almost everything thing men can do and vice-versa, but that doesn't change the fact we are different and society treats us differently for a lot reasons. Some good, some bad, and others downright terrible and indeed sexist.

It might be unfair considering women have to cover up two, but a woman can't bear her breasts any more than a man can whip out his dongus. Most women consider their breasts private and part of their modesty. Most men don't care about being shirtless.

Should women be vilified for wanting to be topless? Absolutely not. But there is a time and a place, and as society we haven't accepted that to include general public areas. That might change, it might not, but it's not like there isn't a rationale behind it that makes sense.

A penis and a vagina are equivalent. Breasts not-so-much.

wait what is the conflict here? are women not allowed to be topless in the us?

I think not in many states. But even otherwise it is not socially accepted often.

Women are allowed to be topless in the vast majority of the US. It is a choice protected by law.

No, it's because they're sexual. Legs arouse plenty of men and women can show them without getting in trouble.

Many body parts can be sexualized. Boobs are not a sex organ though. That is simple biological fact.

When a woman goes topless and is jailed for doing so, who is the victim and how were they harmed? Is there any concrete evidence of that harm?

The only victim is the woman who was jailed. And if that happens in the US, there is a very good chance that she'll win a lawsuit against the city that arrested/jailed her.

My point is that you could have the same number of men who wants to walk around with their penises hanging without the same thing happening. Or hey, those who don't want to told they have to get a haircut or shave every time they leave their home. Or people who want to be fat without being fat-shamed. Or adults who want to have a strictly platonic relationship with children without being called paedophiles.

San Francisco banned total nudity for public health reasons. People didn't want to be sitting on seats in restaurants and other public places where someone else's bare ass and sack had been.

But she will. And that's why Facebook removed it.

And she shouldn't have to face harassment. Those who harass should be punished.

Real question. If it were legal for women to be topless, just like men, tomorrow, would anything really change? Would there be change a year from now? 5 years? A decade?

It's been legal in most of the US for awhile now. You see things like the topless book club in NYC and the topless bike rides in cities on the West Coast. You will also occasionally see someone topless during the summer months.

Most women choose not to be topless, which is perfectly legit and their choice.

It is legal most places. This thread is about the social acceptability of doing so.

I see your point, but I don't know of anywhere that men have to go topless. Most men enjoy being topless at places like the beach or swimming pool, but do they feel pressured to do so? Many men I see there still wear a T shirt or rashguard.

Outside of a beach, the only time I used to really go topless was when I lived in the Midwest and was doing yard work in the middle of summer. Wearing a sweaty shirt all day just made you feel sticky. Having the top off helped with the summer heat (though you needed to have sunblock on or you'd be extra crispy by the end of the day).

Really? It isn't "indecent exposure"?

Nope. Simple being topless is not indecent.

I had to tell off my niece for wanting to run around naked around the house all the time. I know there are girls that don't care if their boobies are showing. We tell women it isn't okay because, well, it isn't okay for like 99.99% of non-perverts. So they up and learn not to.

Non-perverts don't care one way or another if a woman is topless.

It is the perverts that are the ones that want to take the choice away.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I don't understand the picture. Who called that chick all those mean things
I'm curious about this as well. I doubt that many people would have a problem with a topless woman walking along the beach while the guy seems to be in a suburb. I wonder where that picture truly comes from because it's taken completely out of context.
 
So, how many times have you seen topless gifs of Thor, Arrow and Captain America?



You know...except for that you are in a thread with people that do and the topless protesters in New York, people like that.

How are people supposed to change the status quo if your attitude is that since it is the status quo that people want it to be the status quo?
I never said they shouldn't. I'd be perfectly fine with it being socially acceptable for women to be topless in public. I don't care. I'm just saying that maybe the issue is that the majority of women aren't interested in walking around topless and are perfectly fine with the way things are.

And I never denied that there were some women who wanted it, I just don't think that the majority of women care either way. Just because you can find protesters for something doesn't mean that's what the majority of the women want.
 

Servbot24

Banned
What's the harmful to children line about? Pretty sure men are always pegged for that while women are usually considered the safe ones.
 
I never said they shouldn't. I'd be perfectly fine with it being socially acceptable with women being topless in public. I don't care. I'm just saying that maybe the issue is that the majority of women aren't interested in walking around topless and are perfectly fine with the way things are.

And I never denied that there were some women who wanted it, I just don't think that the majority of women care either way. Just because you can find protesters for something doesn't mean that's what the majority of the women want.

Now see, many women may not really care. I can believe that. However, that doesn't mean they are opposed to it. It is a sentiment by many women in this thread.

Even if it is not something they would like to do themselves, they still care about equal opportunity and for the ability for other women to do so if they like to.

I see more women being for this than against this.
 
Now see, many women may not really care. I can believe that. However, that doesn't mean they are opposed to it. It is a sentiment by many women in this thread.

Even if it is not something they would like to do themselves, they still care about equal opportunity and for the ability for other women to do so if they like to.

I see more women being for this than against this.
Well yeah, but the status quo only changes when it gets a lot of attention behind it. And if the majority of women aren't interested enough in the issue to make noise about it, the status quo isn't going to change.

Like I said, I think most women are just apathetic to it changing either way, and nothing ever changed when the majority of people the change would be effecting already appear apathetic to the change either way.
 
Women: On my signal, unleash boobs!

That's completely different and you're being kind of an ass. The idea is to remove the social stigma and forcing of women to do a certain thing. Forcing them to go topless is not better than forcing them to stay covered, and nor is it what people here are arguing for.


Interesting choice. The first pic had both a good looking man and a good looking woman. Your pic has a not-so-good-looking man and a good looking woman.

You're not wrong but I think that only further illustrates the point I was making with the picture. However, it is admittedly hard to find a picture of a good-looking guy with prominent breasts or a picture of an ugly woman with small exposed breasts.

Outside of a beach, the only time I used to really go topless was when I lived in the Midwest and was doing yard work in the middle of summer. Wearing a sweaty shirt all day just made you feel sticky. Having the top off helped with the summer heat (though you needed to have sunblock on or you'd be extra crispy by the end of the day).

As is your right, and should be the right of women.
 

Izuna

Banned

The nudity thing being banned for health reasons is a good reason, but that still doesn't address the fact that they are both considered sexual. Albiet differently so, they are both privates because we are taught they are private.

Finally thank you for finally being the first to say why women would be interested in being topless, which is pretty much the exact same reason men do it when they don't have to. It gets hot or, maybe their clothes get ruined by ketchup or something and they need to change it.

This is the real downside. It's not sexism as we usually call things. It means that women, in the rare cases they would benefit for being completely topless and bra-less (pretty rare for comfort purposes really), have to deal with covering their breasts because the society they are in consider it to be private.

--

So to other posters. How would you even change this? Because simply being topless isn't going to make everyone else learn that it is okay.

When something like same-sex rights becomes something that should be okay, there is a challenge to make all of those who aren't used it to become used to it. For females tits to not be considered sexual this would mean everyone would have to see so many tits in public that eventually they begin to not care. It's not going to happen and Facebook aren't going to do anything other than deter people away from its website if it allows it.

Either way this thread and many people talking about this may end up sparking proper dialogue, but I honestly doubt it because there are far more important things to deal with first. The perverts will probably outnumber the women that want it to become socially acceptable and also appear on daytime television.

--

So yeah, this isn't about making something legal, it's about changing peoples minds. So pretty much, men who find tits sexy, stop finding them sexy. We should be able to have a thread on aroelas just as we have threads on faces.

The harrassment isn't just sexual harrassment but also the numerous people who will tell you to put on some damn clothes. Even as a guy, I had a couple of people make jokes when I had just a vest in the UK or when my bodybuilder brother used to get whistled from women when he didn't put on a top.

I also didn't want my last roommate to spend the entire winter day topless playing Battlefield. None of these things are problems Facebook should try to correct.
 
Well yeah, but the status quo only changes when it gets a lot of attention behind it. And if the majority of women aren't interested enough in the issue to make noise about it, the status quo isn't going to change.

Like I said, I think most women are just apathetic to it changing either way, and nothing ever changed when the majority of people the change would be effecting already appear apathetic to the change either way.

It isn't really as easy at that and it is a bit of a weird thing to comment in this thread considering the entire point is to bring attention to the issue.

There are plenty of women's issues that are agreed on by many, many women that are nevertheless still there, partly because you'll need many men to agree also. Stating that the reason things are like this is because there isn't enough will to change the status quo, in a thread that tries to change this, feels...unhelpful.

Uh what? This thread is about male nipples vs. female nipples. So was the post you quoted... The hell?

The thread title literally states topless, as did the post I quoted that wasn't talking to anyone specifically.

Why shouldn't I presume he is talking about topless men and women instead of nipples of men and women? Yes, I am very aware that the latter comes with the former.
 

waypoetic

Banned
Before the thread even had finished loading i knew that it was gonna be that picture.

OP, try Twitter. It's not as "anal" about boobies as Facebook are.
 

Izuna

Banned
The thread title literally states topless, as did the post I quoted that wasn't talking to anyone specifically.

Why shouldn't I presume he is talking about topless men and women instead of nipples of men and women? Yes, I am very aware that the latter comes with the former.

What? The image was taken down because it shows tits. How is topless != showing tits when that's what you mean by topless?

Is someone perverted for finding breasts sexy?

Obviously not.
 

Metra

Member
(...)
What do you guys think? Is it wrong for a women to walk around topless like guys do? If it's not wrong for a man, why is it for a women? Isn't that sexist?

Hiding breasts only seems to further the idea that they are sex objects. (...)

I think this is part of a social/cultural paradigm, and history explains why it exists.

However, I don't know if its roots (historical cause) are related to our patriarchal (sexist) social structure. I may be wrong, but I think there are (or were) other patriarchal civilizations/societies wherein this particular paradigm (public exposure of female breast) was different (i.e. not legally/morally "wrong").

Regardless of its cause, I think this social paradigm is gradually changing, and - in my opinion - it will probably disappear within the next couple of decades (in western societies, at least).
 

MIMIC

Banned
...yes, and the entire thing being suggested here is that they shouldn't be. And begging the question to counter that idea isn't a valid response.

And in some societies where everyone is naked all day and every day, nothing is considered private enough to cover up. That's the difference between our society and theirs: we drew the line somewhere while they didn't.

So unless your argument is that NOTHING should be covered up, moving the line to just exclude breasts is seemingly just as arbitrary.
 

Syriel

Member
This protest pic is a great example of what's been discussed:

putin-femen.jpg


Most people are just going about their business.

"Oh, another protester."

Putin's first reaction is to give two thumbs up.

And his handler is trying to shield Putin from the "dangerous boobies."

The question is, who in this photo represents your stance?
 

wildfire

Banned
I never said anything about sanitation, and it's not like naked people would be bumping into each other with their dirty parts, although packed subways would definitely be awkward...

No you didn't but you were wondering what distinction should made between having a ban on genitals if some of us don't see a need for ban on breasts. There are practical reasons for covering genitals and it is for more than the health reason I was bringing up.

Noone wants to see a guy getting a boner or woman showing signs of menstruation.


Real question. If it were legal for women to be topless, just like men, tomorrow, would anything really change? Would there be change a year from now? 5 years? A decade?

The vast majority of adults wouldn't stop wearing bras. They are a very useful tool for support and comfort.

What would change though is that we wouldn't frivolously arrest women for being comfortable with it.

It would also cause some trouble because a lot of people are used to the status quo and would object to seeing a woman topless even though it is legal.
 

Izuna

Banned
What is then even your point? How do you justify opression?

How is this oppresion? My point is pretty clear.

This is hardly and issue.

I want to paint a graph.

X-axis being how difficult it would be to change EVERYONE's mind

Y-axis being how much it would actually benefit the women who want to be topless with the same attention men get for doing the same

Then tell me if the graph you paint makes you think Facebook should give a shit.

This protest pic is a great example of what's been discussed:

putin-femen.jpg


Most people are just going about their business.

"Oh, another protester."

Putin's first reaction is to give two thumbs up.

And his handler is trying to shield Putin from the "dangerous boobies."

The question is, who in this photo represents your stance?

The guys not giving a shit to the side.

I think the guy to the left loves the boobies and is just protecting Putin from the unknown tbh. No one gets to be that close to him screaming like that.

--

!!!!NSFW http://i.imgur.com/8xkSFMe(dot)gif NSFW!!!! <--- It's the female nipples that are soooooo private. Cleavage is socially accepted and people who complain should get a grip, but unless this gif has absolutely no effect on you, you aren't ready either for a summer with girl nipples.
 
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