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[GhostTrick]

A letter at the start of the game...

vs.

A bunch of faeries getting kidnapped at the start of the game...

That about covers the story.

Or you could play it fair, with the small dialogs all around the castle. The little stories in the levels, like the Bomb-omb field and the battle going on there. The charming characters you would meet in these levels like that penguin and his mother, or the Koopa racer.

 

[Mpl90]

SM64 story is just the letter from Peach, the castle gaining strength as more stars are collected, fighting Bowser, the end. Plus Yoshi coming back once you finish the game. There were also stories about the levels themselves. Pretty small to be honest, some of them very small, but they were able to give even more personality to some places. Galaxy has a similar setup IMHO, and there's also Rosalina's fable, which felt interesting and touching and, yes, I'd be enthusiastic to see that kind of element back in a main Mario game. Both small characters' stories and Rosalina's fable (especially the latter IMHO) gave to those Mario games something different than other Mario games, I'd agree with that. But they were still supplementary elements, not part of the main story of the game, still the standard "save the kidnapped princess". Again, I'd like to see more of those back, I can't deny it, but I don't think 3D World is not charming or it doesn't feature interesting settings. Some of 3D World's settings are flat-out gorgeous to play in, and the world map has some charm (the moment the final Bowser world opens up is great, for example). It's true, it's a "sequel" to an handheld game, but it takes the 3D Land formula and it expands on it multiple, multiple times. And being the first 3D Mario with 4-players multiplayer IS ambitious. Not even going into the level design department, where the game shines like the Galaxy games (to be honest, some parts make me think it's better than Galaxy on that front), so much creativity.

Heck, from a certain point of view, 3D World is the most different one, since it's not Peach being kidnapped, but, as Vena said, the similarities with SM64's story are plenty enough.

Also, in case you're wondering, I'm not including Super Mario Sunshine. Simply because...eh, I didn't find the story of the game that good, to be honest. Sunshine is the only Mario game I really couldn't enjoy that much (never completed, those darn blue coins), and the story was strange, but not "charming" enough.

Spoiler

Also, we all know Miyamoto's real Bowser Jr.'s mommy now, you can't fool us anymore Bowser!

 

[Vena]

Or you could play it fair, with the small dialogs all around the castle. The little stories in the levels, like the Bomb-omb field and the battle going on there. The charming characters you would meet in these levels like that penguin and his mother, or the Koopa racer.

Okay.

But you have silent theatrics/cutscenes from the Toads (spawning its own little charming and creative game), the Faeries, the Dinosaur, etc. Even the enemies have little routines (if you don't interupt them) that give them more life and personality than anything in the old games (for obvious reasons). Just because little dialogue boxes don't pop up, doesn't mean that they don't have a personality or their own little stories to the world just as their N64 counterparts did.

 

[GhostTrick]

Okay.

But you have silent theatrics/cutscenes from the Toads (spawning its own little charming and creative game), the Faeries, the Dinosaur, etc. Even the enemies have little routines (if you don't interupt them) that give them more life and personality than anything in the old games (for obvious reasons). Just because little dialogue boxes don't pop up, doesn't mean that they don't have a personality or their own little stories to the world just as their N64 counterparts did.

They don't. Of course there are charming elements, but it's far from what we had.

 

[killroy87]

I'm just putting this out there: Ever since the news outlined in the OP, I can't stop thinking about how excited I am for NX announcement. With a new PS or Xbox, you can make a pretty educated guess as to what you're getting. But Nintendo is always up in the air.

I know they probably wont, but I really hope they keep the name as NX (or NXT).

 

[Vena]

They don't. Of course there are charming elements, but it's far from what we had.

"They don't." what? What don't they do?

The only real story the games ever had (and lost) was the well executed Rosalina's Story Book. The rest was always just lore dressing to a paper thin rescue plot.

 

[LegendofLex]

They don't. Of course there are charming elements, but it's far from what we had.

Dialogue boxes aren't the only way to tell a story.

They're actually one of the lazier ones.

 

[GhostTrick]

"They don't." what? What don't they do?

The only real story the games ever had (and lost) was the well executed Rosalina's Story Book. The rest was always just lore dressing to a paper thin rescue plot.

They didn't had a story. It's not because you have enemies doing one or two idle thing that they got one. Then again, I'm not making it as if it was exceptional. But it was one of these many elements making their games so special.

Dialogue boxes aren't the only way to tell a story.

They're actually one of the lazier ones.

Well, at least there was one to tell.

 

[Sadist]

IF you seriously can't understand that Nintendo's target demographic is within a specific age group and that age group is slowly being swayed with other devices for family friendly entertainment then I don't know what else there is to talk about.
Not promoting and advertising your system for a age group that actually spends more than the one they have been targeting for decades is a huge mistake.

And I don't believe that to be the case. Nintendo makes games for everyone; there is no denying that other devices are eating away at dedicated gaming, but I refuse to step into the very confined discussion of "well, Nintendo's most important group are kids" because there is data telling us otherwise. Everybody loves to dismiss the Wii, DS and even 3DS which tell us that Nintendo is able to sell their games to multiple demographics.

ANd you putting words in my mouth about other "Platformholders" being what I'm talking about sounds like your salty or something?
So you want NIntendo to keep directing their focus on a specific target audience that has slowly moved away from them? Because to say they don't look and see how much money is being brought in from different age groups, is asinine.

They need to be diverse, and no they don't have to be like "other platform holders". Gamecube was it's own thing that was marketed wrong, but had diversity in the age groups it was trying to attract. Nintendo didn't even try that again, even though the gamecube has been a bigger success than Wii u.
They can make games for a older age group and still keep it Nintendo fresh. I don't understand why your so against them trying to attract people who potentially buy more than the age group they usually target. It's like you want to keep them making the same type of colorful games that are for younger age groups. ANd I'm not saying they have to stop, I'm saying offer something else for when those kids get older. ANd possibly get other people in on the console for different reasons other than their legacy mario games.

I never did. Nintendo is a platformholder and so are the others. Whats salty about it?

At this point I feel that ever since the Wii U came out (and continued to fall on it's face) everyone started to over analyze everything and arguments all over the place. Honestly, it's pretty simple: the Wii U as a console was never an attractive proposition for the massmarket. And no amount of software, even if Nintendo would diversify in aesthetics would have helped them. I don't believe a mix-up in their franchises (targeting a specific older demographic) will help the NX out from Nintendo themselves. And honestly, if you believe making colourful games is just for a younger demographic is extremely shortsighted. Agree to disagree.

 

[maxcriden]

Those two games plus a brand new 3D Mario would be the best launch lineup ever. It would be too risky to launch 2 big games of their two biggest IPs on the same day but god damn they need to take the risk.

It's going to be very interesting to see what Nintendo does with a possible unified software lineup across their handheld and console. Whereas in 2013 we got 3DW and LBW on the same day, we also know Nintendo has traditionally been wary about releasing too many games from its franchises in a similar period of time so I'm hoping they will be a bit less hesistant about that, especially when it comes to evergreen sellers whose sales in the longterm won't be defined by their Week 1 or Month 1 sales regardless, when it comes to the possibility of a unified software lineup for NX. I'm hoping a similar line of thought will make them ready and eager to promote an incredible launch and launch window lineup as well, something more impressive than they've had at their Wii U and 3DS launches, somethjng more akin to their GBA and GCN launch window.

I'm sort of kind of inclined to believe Retro are doing Metroid as well. Say, 60-40 sure they're doing it anyway.

I'm concerned people are setting themselves up for disappointment when it comes to (a) future Metroid Prime games or (b) Retro working on Metroid. In a bizarre twist of fate I could see Retro working on a new 2D Metroid which I think would really disappoint a lot of people. Instead of "it's fucking DONKEY KONG?!" we'd see "it's fucking *2D* Metroid?!" People make a lot of noise about wanting a new "real" Metroid game and I understand the disappointment about Federation Force (which is just a hilarious off-point marketing misfire from Nintendo--how did they not know how fans would flip? Further evidence of an at-times lackluster understanding of their Western fanbase), but all in all I think what most people who talk about missing mainline Metroid really want is a new Metroid Prime.

The thing is, I'm not sure how many Metroid Prime devs are even still at Retro and there hasn't been a Metroid Prime game from the studio in (had to look this up and was kinda surprised!) 8.5 years. That's a long time for a studio to shift focus away from a certain type of game for something else entirely (DK, assisting with MK) to then go back to their previous style of project. I suspect we will either see a 2D Metroid or a new 3D or FPA Metroid not made by Retro. I just don't know how much Retro is really clamoring to make Metroid games again. Hm. I don't have a strong argument here I realize but I'm just skeptical Metroid Prime is still a thing Nintendo is eager to sink significant resources into on the console front. I think since Metroid isn't even in Nintendo's top ten-selling franchises I'm just super skeptical Metroid Prime is coming back any time soon while Nintendo is in such a rebuilding mode.

On the other hand, the opposite argument says Metroid Prime is just the kind of game to get the core market interested in a "mature" Nintendo game again. I'm one of those people who thinks players averse to Nintendo will see something like that coming out and just say "eh, I need more than one game to justify a system purchase," though.

 

[GhostTrick]

And I don't believe that to be the case. Nintendo makes games for everyone; there is no denying that other devices are eating away at dedicated gaming, but I refuse to step into the very confined discussion of "well, Nintendo's most important group are kids" because there is data telling us otherwise. Everybody loves to dismiss the Wii, DS and even 3DS which tell us that Nintendo is able to sell their games to multiple demographics.


I never did. Nintendo is a platformholder and so are the others. Whats salty about it?

At this point I feel that ever since the Wii U came out (and continued to fall on it's face) everyone started to over analyze everything and arguments all over the place. Honestly, it's pretty simple: the Wii U as a console was never an attractive proposition for the massmarket. And no amount of software, even if Nintendo would diversify in aesthetics would have helped them. I don't believe a mix-up in their franchises (targeting a specific older demographic) will help the NX out from Nintendo themselves. And honestly, if you believe making colourful games is just for a younger demographic is extremely shortsighted. Agree to disagree.

Well, at least, Nintendo tries to reach many groups. It's not true that they target only one demographic, and even in Wii days, they kept trying to reach core gamers with titles such as The Last Story, Pandora's Tower or Xenoblade.

It's going to be very interesting to see what Nintendo does with a possible unified software lineup across their handheld and console. Whereas in 2013 we got 3DW and LBW on the same day, we also know Nintendo has traditionally been wary about releasing too many games from its franchises in a similar period of time so I'm hoping they will be a bit less hesistant about that, especially when it comes to evergreen sellers whose sales in the longterm won't be defined by their Week 1 or Month 1 sales regardless, when it comes to the possibility of a unified software lineup for NX. I'm hoping a similar line of thought will make them ready and eager to promote an incredible launch and launch window lineup as well, something more impressive than they've had at their Wii U and 3DS launches, somethjng more akin to their GBA and GCN launch window.



I'm concerned people are setting themselves up for disappointment when it comes to (a) future Metroid Prime games or (b) Retro working on Metroid. In a bizarre twist of fate I could see Retro working on a new 2D Metroid which I think would really disappoint a lot of people. Instead of "it's fucking DONKEY KONG?!" we'd see "it's fucking *2D* Metroid?!" People make a lot of noise about wanting a new "real" Metroid game and I understand the disappointment about Federation Force (which is just a hilarious off-point marketing misfire from Nintendo--how did they not know how fans would flip? Further evidence of an at-times lackluster understanding of their Western fanbase), but all in all I think what most people who talk about missing mainline Metroid really want is a new Metroid Prime.

The thing is, I'm not sure how many Metroid Prime devs are even still at Retro and there hasn't been a Metroid Prime game from the studio in (had to look this up and was kinda surprised!) 8.5 years. That's a long time for a studio to shift focus away from a certain type of game for something else entirely (DK, assisting with MK) to then go back to their previous style of project. I suspect we will either see a 2D Metroid or a new 3D or FPA Metroid not made by Retro. I just don't know how much Retro is really clamoring to make Metroid games again. Hm. I don't have a strong argument here I realize but I'm just skeptical Metroid Prime is still a thing Nintendo is eager to sink significant resources into on the console front. I think since Metroid isn't even in Nintendo's top ten-selling franchises I'm just super skeptical Metroid Prime is coming back any time soon while Nintendo is in such a rebuilding mode.

On the other hand, the opposite argument says Metroid Prime is just the kind of game to get the core market interested in a "mature" Nintendo game again. I'm one of those people who thinks players averse to Nintendo will see something like that coming out and just say "eh, I need more than one game to justify a system purchase," though.

I don't think people would be upset by a 2D Metroid. It would depend on the art direction though. But you can bet that if the game was 2.5D with impressive graphics and atmosphere, or if it was a beautiful 2D, people would be really happy. Of course... if we had the same direction as NSMB serie or to a lesser extent, A Link Between Worlds, people would be upset for sure at reveal.

 

[LegendofLex]

Well, at least there was one to tell.

In an imaginary universe, the only things that are real are the ones you internalize in your own imagination of that universe. People have headcanon that disputes the games/movies/books they're consuming; people likewise insert headcanon that fills in missing details that were never covered in the original work.

It's one thing when games present worlds that actively feel like they're lacking in continuity (Mario 3D World is definitely guilty of this), but it's quite another when games fail to spell things out that people can imagine for themselves.

 

[Sandfox]

Yea and is part of my whole argument, If resident evil and the likes which are also on home console are promoted and do well on handheld why not on the platform they are more prominent on?

I mean I guess for Persona that may differ, since it popularity is more from handheld. But didn't it start a long time ago on PS2? Or am I thinking of a different series?

I mean does everyone agree that Nintendo's genre's and diversity of games currently is going to do well for their home console in the future?

I honestly do not understand what you are arguing in this post.

Then again, it's not about what it tells, it's about how it is tell.






Splatoon is a game released with 5 maps. Even though it was updated, it's clear that they didn't go fullspeed ahead for this game. A good game, but I believe the possible sequel will be where Splatoon will shine as a masterpiece. As for SSB4, sure it did more on some places, but less on others. The problem is, they needed the game to be ready as fast as possible.





It is overpriced. The base game released with what, 42 characters ? They still had to make these characters, yet you didn't had to pay like 5€ per characters ? Then again, I'm not saying one character should be priced proportionnally to the base game. But I think that when you reach nearly the price of the base game with 7 to 8 characters... there's a pricing problem.

You might want to look at other games in the same genre if think the Smash dlc is overpriced

 

[AfroDust]

I'm just putting this out there: Ever since the news outlined in the OP, I can't stop thinking about how excited I am for NX announcement. With a new PS or Xbox, you can make a pretty educated guess as to what you're getting. But Nintendo is always up in the air.

I know they probably wont, but I really hope they keep the name as NX (or NXT).

I feel you man. I stopped buying Nintendo consoles after the Gamecube, but I always watch them closely to see what they've got up their sleeves next. I'm VERY excited to see what NX is, because if it's something that interests me I want to jump back into the fold.

 

[GhostTrick]

In an imaginary universe, the only things that are real are the ones you internalize in your own imagination of that universe. People have headcanon that disputes the games/movies/books they're consuming; people likewise insert headcanon that fills in missing details that were never covered in the original work.

So... you were saying about dialog boxes... and now you're telling me it's my imagination ? Did I missed your point ?

You might want to look at other games in the same genre if think the Smash dlc is overpriced

It's not because others are doing bad that we expect the same elsewhere. Some publishers had on disk DLCs or ending on DLC. Does it become an excuse for someone else to do the same ?

 

[Richie]

I'm still wondering what this insistence to champion deeper storytelling in Mario platformers has jack to do with the topic at hand. Now that's a story I'd like to hear.

On topic, I wouldn't be surprised if the time between a proper unveil and actual release is much, much smaller than it's been traditional of Nintendo in the past. The Wii U was revealed way too early and the novelty's impact no doubt wore off as it endured 2 E3s before releasing to the market. They may want to avoid that, give people the hype and have the products reach their hands while said hype is there.

Similarly most games unveiled in that January 2013 Direct turned out overexposed by the time you could actually buy them.

 

[GhostTrick]

I'm still wondering what this insistence to champion deeper storytelling in Mario platformers has jack to do with the topic at hand. Now that's a story I'd like to hear.

On topic, I wouldn't be surprised if the time between a proper unveil and actual release is much, much smaller than it's been traditional of Nintendo in the past. The Wii U was revealed way too early and the novelty's impact no doubt wore off as it endured 2 E3s before releasing to the market. They may want to avoid that, give people the hype and have the products reach their hands while said hype is there.

Similarly most games unveiled in that January 2013 Direct turned out overexposed by the time you could actually buy them.

Well, basically, people ignored the bit about Genyo Takeda, which was more hardware related and hence thread related

 

[TheOnlyOneHeEverFeared]

It's going to be very interesting to see what Nintendo does with a possible unified software lineup across their handheld and console. Whereas in 2013 we got 3DW and LBW on the same day, we also know Nintendo has traditionally been wary about releasing too many games from its franchises in a similar period of time so I'm hoping they will be a bit less hesistant about that, especially when it comes to evergreen sellers whose sales in the longterm won't be defined by their Week 1 or Month 1 sales regardless, when it comes to the possibility of a unified software lineup for NX. I'm hoping a similar line of thought will make them ready and eager to promote an incredible launch and launch window lineup as well, something more impressive than they've had at their Wii U and 3DS launches, somethjng more akin to their GBA and GCN launch window.



I'm concerned people are setting themselves up for disappointment when it comes to (a) future Metroid Prime games or (b) Retro working on Metroid. In a bizarre twist of fate I could see Retro working on a new 2D Metroid which I think would really disappoint a lot of people. Instead of "it's fucking DONKEY KONG?!" we'd see "it's fucking *2D* Metroid?!" People make a lot of noise about wanting a new "real" Metroid game and I understand the disappointment about Federation Force (which is just a hilarious off-point marketing misfire from Nintendo--how did they not know how fans would flip? Further evidence of an at-times lackluster understanding of their Western fanbase), but all in all I think what most people who talk about missing mainline Metroid really want is a new Metroid Prime.

The thing is, I'm not sure how many Metroid Prime devs are even still at Retro and there hasn't been a Metroid Prime game from the studio in (had to look this up and was kinda surprised!) 8.5 years. That's a long time for a studio to shift focus away from a certain type of game for something else entirely (DK, assisting with MK) to then go back to their previous style of project. I suspect we will either see a 2D Metroid or a new 3D or FPA Metroid not made by Retro. I just don't know how much Retro is really clamoring to make Metroid games again. Hm. I don't have a strong argument here I realize but I'm just skeptical Metroid Prime is still a thing Nintendo is eager to sink significant resources into on the console front. I think since Metroid isn't even in Nintendo's top ten-selling franchises I'm just super skeptical Metroid Prime is coming back any time soon while Nintendo is in such a rebuilding mode.

On the other hand, the opposite argument says Metroid Prime is just the kind of game to get the core market interested in a "mature" Nintendo game again. I'm one of those people who thinks players averse to Nintendo will see something like that coming out and just say "eh, I need more than one game to justify a system purchase," though.

I'd love a 2D metroid. I'd love any metroid except federation force.

 

[Richie]

Well, basically, people ignored the bit about Genyo Takeda, which was more hardware related and hence thread related

Heh. Don't get me wrong, I think it a worthwhile discussion, I just think at this point it'd be better served with a thread of its own. That way you get a fuller debate, gaffers who will actually enter specifically to tackle the subject.

 

[GhostTrick]

Heh. Don't get me wrong, I think it a worthwhile discussion, I just think at this point it'd be better served with a thread of its own. That way you get a fuller debate, gaffers who will actually enter specifically to tackle the subject.

Well to be honest, while it's a subject that would be interesting to talk about, I think it got carried away from my first point about Nintendo's managements problems.

 

[maxcriden]

If it happens..it shows nothing has been learned. It won't sell and won't push hardware sales.

DK as a character still has potential ..but Nintendo's side-scrolling platformers just aren't selling (outside of Mario Maker).

If Nintendo are making a DK game it should either be a full 3D platformer, a family shooter ala Splatoon, a Diddy Kong Racing sequel...or a classic DK maker for $10-$20. DKC is DOA.

I think a lot of that is relative to install base, a narrative about platformer overload (whose truth is in question for me), and the general devaluing of platforms in the current gaming market. Regardless, releasing them in-between other kinds of games more so could help.

 

[GhostTrick]

I think a lot of that is relative to install base, a narrative about platformer overload (whose truth is in question for me), and the general devaluing of platforms in the current gaming market. Regardless, releasing them in-between other kinds of games more so could help.

Well... NSMBU, NSLU, DKCTF, Kirby, Yoshi's Wooly World... I think that 1st party wise, 5 titles in the same genre is pretty much telling.

 

[Sandfox]

So... you were saying about dialog boxes... and now you're telling me it's my imagination ? Did I missed your point ?




It's not because others are doing bad that we expect the same elsewhere. Some publishers had on disk DLCs or ending on DLC. Does it become an excuse for someone else to do the same ?

I don't really agree with that logic since one is inherently bad/greedy while the other isn't, but I don't see the point in continuing down this line because I doubt anyone's mind will be changed or anything.

 

[Yautja_Warrior]

It pretty much has to come out this year because the Wii U is not making money, although they do have the chance to nail it, if they do things right.

Zelda Wii U has been delayed, it's very likely to be an NX launch title now (it will launch on Wii U too) it's also been around 6 years since Mario Galaxy 2, so it's about time we had a new 3D Mario game, and the Metroid Prime developer Retro has been quite lately but did start something new in 2014.

Nintendo really need to make a statement with NX, so they should return to E3 this year, say ok here's the NX, here's the price and it's going to launch with Zelda, Mario and Metroid in holiday 2016, oh and here's a load of 3rd party games too. If they do that, E3 2016 is Nintendo's and it would be pretty awesome too.

Now of course Nintendo might not do any of that but they really need to change if they want to carry on making consoles and be relevant now. The only good thing about them failing again is they own IP's and Characters worth billions and could quite easily create / publish their games on Xbox and PlayStation and make a ton of cash that way.

 

[Neoxon]

It's not because others are doing bad that we expect the same elsewhere. Some publishers had on disk DLCs or ending on DLC. Does it become an excuse for someone else to do the same ?

But it's not the same case. Tons of effort goes into making fighting game characters (balancing, animations, models, etc.). As a result, most fighting games price their DLC characters at around $5 for use on one system, & pretty much every single fighting game with character DLC stays within that general ballpark for the pricing of their characters (UMvC3, MK9, MKX, Injustice, Guilty Gear Xrd, P4AU, SFV, etc.). With Smash 4, you pay $5 to use that character on both versions of the game, or $4 for just one version. And if it costs more, they come with something extra like extra music (Corrin) or a stage (Ryu, Cloud, Bayonetta). The pricing is definitely fair.

 

[Plinko]

Thats what happened. They SAID it will be "X" and then they gave us dev kits that were woefully under X. Had they delivered something that was easy to port our X360/PS3 games over from they would have gotten much larger support. We were VERY excited at my studio until the devkit arrived and deflated all our plans. Time will tell what they learned form that experience.

Isn't this what caused the EA "unprecedented partnership" blowup?

Also, we heard news that Nintendo actually was creating "X" until Iwata et al demanded a smaller form factor, which in essence killed the power of the system, IIRC.

 

[Papacheeks]

Well, at least, Nintendo tries to reach many groups. It's not true that they target only one demographic, and even in Wii days, they kept trying to reach core gamers with titles such as The Last Story, Pandora's Tower or Xenoblade.

I don't think people would be upset by a 2D Metroid. It would depend on the art direction though. But you can bet that if the game was 2.5D with impressive graphics and atmosphere, or if it was a beautiful 2D, people would be really happy. Of course... if we had the same direction as NSMB serie or to a lesser extent, A Link Between Worlds, people would be upset for sure at reveal.

But would you agree that a lot of what they have put out regardless of who plays it is targeted for certain age groups? Like the way they use color, and make family friendly games seems to be where their primary focus is. Especially in how they design, market them with bright colored character's and box art.

Splatoon is a great example especially when you watch the TV commercial. It's something I would see on Nickelodeon.

There are experiments for broader demographic age groups like MARIO Kart, Mario Maker, maybe splatoon.

And there are the rare ones that are for more mature older demographics, but they seem to be few and outshined by the ones above.

I honestly do not understand what you are arguing in this post.

It's pretty simple, go look at how many mature rated games from franchises are on 3DS compared to Wii U. And how they are treated/promoted.

And I don't believe that to be the case. Nintendo makes games for everyone; there is no denying that other devices are eating away at dedicated gaming, but I refuse to step into the very confined discussion of "well, Nintendo's most important group are kids" because there is data telling us otherwise. Everybody loves to dismiss the Wii, DS and even 3DS which tell us that Nintendo is able to sell their games to multiple demographics.


I never did. Nintendo is a platformholder and so are the others. Whats salty about it?

At this point I feel that ever since the Wii U came out (and continued to fall on it's face) everyone started to over analyze everything and arguments all over the place. Honestly, it's pretty simple: the Wii U as a console was never an attractive proposition for the massmarket. And no amount of software, even if Nintendo would diversify in aesthetics would have helped them. I don't believe a mix-up in their franchises (targeting a specific older demographic) will help the NX out from Nintendo themselves. And honestly, if you believe making colourful games is just for a younger demographic is extremely shortsighted. Agree to disagree.

Obviously not in the case of Wii U. As sales would show you, and sales on games like Skyword sword for the wii. I feel your right on Wii U's failings having to be the killer for any buzz on their games. But to say that everyone will buy or enjoy the next mario, donkey kong, or whatever is reaching.

Only people who actually still like Nintendo, or are into those kind of games are going to gravitate towards them. And them making a Pikmin 4 is like "well 4th time's a charm, right guys". The reason Nintendo's IP's were so great mostly in Wii days was because of the console, not because MARIO was the biggest thing again.

I think when NX is launched unless they communicate their console to a lot of new buyers, I don't see lot's of sales for whatever Mario game is released. Especially since there's a lot of competition in 2016.
And them relying on DEYNA mobile games they are making would be a huge mistake for a console. SO in my eye's it's a sink or swim scenario one that can be righted by taking more chances in different genre's.

Why does Smash have to be the only game worth a damn for fighters on their system? Why does Mario Kart have to be the only good Nintendo racing game, why not something oldschool arcadey like in sega's day?
There are so many thing's outside of "Mature"games they could be doing. ANd these games I'm just spit balling, could reach the older demographic if done correctly. Look at rocket league.
Imagine a Nintendo created arcade soccer game? There's so much wasted and left on the table, that is why my whole spiel along with Ghost Trick has been they are playing really safe, and if they continue to do that may make them look stale.

 

[Instro]

Isn't this what caused the EA "unprecedented partnership" blowup?

Also, we heard news that Nintendo actually was creating "X" until Iwata et al demanded a smaller form factor, which in essence killed the power of the system, IIRC.

Sounds familiar. I'm sure it was some combo of wanting a smaller console, lower power consumption, etc.

 

[Sadist]

I'm still wondering what this insistence to champion deeper storytelling in Mario platformers has jack to do with the topic at hand. Now that's a story I'd like to hear.

On topic, I wouldn't be surprised if the time between a proper unveil and actual release is much, much smaller than it's been traditional of Nintendo in the past. The Wii U was revealed way too early and the novelty's impact no doubt wore off as it endured 2 E3s before releasing to the market. They may want to avoid that, give people the hype and have the products reach their hands while said hype is there.

Similarly most games unveiled in that January 2013 Direct turned out overexposed by the time you could actually buy them.

According to John Harker, Nintendo is really working on making the whole "making the reveal - release" window smaller.

Isn't this what caused the EA "unprecedented partnership" blowup?

Also, we heard news that Nintendo actually was creating "X" until Iwata et al demanded a smaller form factor, which in essence killed the power of the system, IIRC.

What I heard regarding EA was more of a documentation/communication thing. The documentation was crude and communication with Nintendo's dev support was really bad. So EA was like "nope, we made these games and that's the end of it. Bye."

 

[Fourth Storm]

I'm concerned people are setting themselves up for disappointment when it comes to (a) future Metroid Prime games or (b) Retro working on Metroid. In a bizarre twist of fate I could see Retro working on a new 2D Metroid which I think would really disappoint a lot of people. Instead of "it's fucking DONKEY KONG?!" we'd see "it's fucking *2D* Metroid?!" People make a lot of noise about wanting a new "real" Metroid game and I understand the disappointment about Federation Force (which is just a hilarious off-point marketing misfire from Nintendo--how did they not know how fans would flip? Further evidence of an at-times lackluster understanding of their Western fanbase), but all in all I think what most people who talk about missing mainline Metroid really want is a new Metroid Prime.

The thing is, I'm not sure how many Metroid Prime devs are even still at Retro and there hasn't been a Metroid Prime game from the studio in (had to look this up and was kinda surprised!) 8.5 years. That's a long time for a studio to shift focus away from a certain type of game for something else entirely (DK, assisting with MK) to then go back to their previous style of project. I suspect we will either see a 2D Metroid or a new 3D or FPA Metroid not made by Retro. I just don't know how much Retro is really clamoring to make Metroid games again. Hm. I don't have a strong argument here I realize but I'm just skeptical Metroid Prime is still a thing Nintendo is eager to sink significant resources into on the console front. I think since Metroid isn't even in Nintendo's top ten-selling franchises I'm just super skeptical Metroid Prime is coming back any time soon while Nintendo is in such a rebuilding mode.

On the other hand, the opposite argument says Metroid Prime is just the kind of game to get the core market interested in a "mature" Nintendo game again. I'm one of those people who thinks players averse to Nintendo will see something like that coming out and just say "eh, I need more than one game to justify a system purchase," though.

Retro doing a 2D Metroid w/ an upgraded DKTF engine might actually make some sense. Remember, the Prime series is Tanabe's baby. Retro won't be doing one w/out him. There are also the reports that Sakamoto is now personally supervising Retro Studios. With the comments that there is a place for both 2D and 3D Metroid and the backlash against Other M's gameplay style, a straight up Metroid 5 might actually fit the bill.

Isn't this what caused the EA "unprecedented partnership" blowup?

Also, we heard news that Nintendo actually was creating "X" until Iwata et al demanded a smaller form factor, which in essence killed the power of the system, IIRC.

I don't know about Arkam's former workplace, but from what I've read Wii U was planned to be a low-power console right from the get-go. They were promising easy ports, though, and it seems like perhaps they only slightly missed the mark? If it weren't for the poor dev kits/documentation along w/ the SIMD-less CPU, they might have gotten away with it!

 

[GamerJM]

I really doubt the likeliness of 3D Mario being there at launch. I really don't think it would be smart for Nintendo to blow their load like that. I think we'll see Zelda, something else, and maybe Pikmin from Nintendo at launch, and then over the course of 2017 they'll have a super strong lineup that'll include 3D Mario, whatever Retro's been working on, and "remasters," of Wii U games like Smash and Mario Kart. This would echo what we saw on the Wii where Twilight Princess was a launch game, and then MP3 and SMG came out within the first year. It would also be kinda similar to the Gamecube, where Melee and Pikmin 1 were launch window games (along with stuff like Luigi's Mansion and Wave Race), and then Mario Sunshine, Metroid Prime (in the US), Wind Waker (in Japan) came out in 2002.

 

[Sandfox]

It's pretty simple, go look at how many mature rated games from franchises are on 3DS compared to Wii U. And how they are treated/promoted.

Nintendo only puts big marketing pushes behind their biggest titles that can go on and put up multi-million sales like MK8 and Smash while all of the mature rated games on their platform are either niche or published by someone else.

 

[AerialAir]

I fear the way the market will react for this mid-gen release, it feels so awkward, especially with all the 3DS games still approaching a western release.

 

[Aostia]

Put a real metroid on NX and I am on board

 

[MadOdorMachine]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=171565826&postcount=302

Well without knowing who Matt is, this tells me absolutely nothing and falls into the "vague" category. He says the NX won't be weaker than the Wii U. Okay, but based on what metric? If you remember, there were also developers claiming the Wii U was weaker than XB360 before it was released.

What I'm saying is that a comment like that can be interpreted in several ways. If you take the comment into context with all the other info we have about Nintendo and NX, I guess I've come to a different conclusion.

I think the odds of Nintendo making a console that's more powerful than PS4 are slim to none. I know they have a new CEO, but I haven't seen any indication that their core philosophy has changed. How many years has Nintendo tried to gain back third party support? Even if they did make a system more powerful, they have every reason to believe they still won't get that support. The damage is done. It's over. Period. End of story.

Imo, everything they are doing and all the info that's been revealed about NX indicates that they're moving on from the traditional "console war" mindset and will try to leverage the success and support they've had with their handhelds and incorporate it into their NX console.

 

[Snakeyes]

As we all know, realistic visuals and modern production values (voice, facial animations, CGI, etc) cost a shitton of money. Nintendo have spouted ideological reasons for a lack of such games on their consoles, but I think it boils down to cost and the risk that an audience for such realistic titles may never thrive on their platforms in the current landscape. We've seen them publish mature/realistic titles in recent years (Fatal Frame, Devil's Third, Ninja Gaiden 3 in NA), but they've all been fairly low cost investments.

Do they really have to? I'd love for someone like Arkam to chime in on this but my impression is that one of the main reasons for the higher development cost of games with realistic visuals is that they're often made with a bloated, brute-force development strategy. Just looking at the credits of a couple games, I have to ask;

Why does fucking Black Ops 3 need twice as many writers as Persona 4? Why is a military shooter's art section bigger than Splatoon's development team as a whole, localization included? If you want a comparison with a more realistic-looking game, BLOPS 3's art team would make up roughly two thirds of XBCX's entire staff.

I think it's absolutely possible to make a realistic game on a budget, especially if your main focus will be tight, polished gameplay mechanics with an aesthetically pleasing, but not technologically impressive presentation, like many games developed with a Nintendo-like design philosophy in mind,

 

[maxcriden]

Well... NSMBU, NSLU, DKCTF, Kirby, Yoshi's Wooly World... I think that 1st party wise, 5 titles in the same genre is pretty much telling.

You can't count DLC as a seperate game, even if it got a retail release. 😉 also, Rainbow Curse is really not a normal platformer in any way. Regardless, platformers have become significantly devalued so with the lack of games for Wii U from third parties, and missing franchises in other genres like Metroid and F-Zero, I can see how you and others are left with the impression that there is an abundance of platformers for the system.

 

[Grylvak]

I fear the way the market will react for this mid-gen release, it feels so awkward, especially with all the 3DS games still approaching a western release.

The bolded is also something I fear. The NX is sure to be a great Nintendo console, but the ramifications of a mid-gen release could hit them pretty hard if not done well.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

I don't care what hardware it's on, I just want to see some new Nintendo games. I hate when they go so quiet for so long.

This is exactly how I feel like.. holy shit dude..

They only have what 5-6 games we know that are developed internally across Wii U 3DS like damn..

 

[Neoxon]

The bolded is also something I fear. The NX is sure to be a great Nintendo console, but the ramifications of a mid-gen release could hit them pretty hard if not done well.

The NX Handheld probably won't have it as bad since the 3DS is pretty much on its deathbed & Nintendo has no competition on the dedicated gaming handheld front. Though I do agree about the NX Console being in an awkward situation with its mid-gen release.

 

[Kimawolf]

The NX Handheld probably won't have it as bad since the 3DS is pretty much on its deathbed & Nintendo has no competition on the dedicated gaming handheld front. Though I do agree about the NX Console being in an awkward situation with its mid-gen release.

Unless they release another in 3years with this one being forward compatible like phones are. They can baiscally always match and overtake the competition that way.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Well without knowing who Matt is, this tells me absolutely nothing and falls into the "vague" category. He says the NX won't be weaker than the Wii U. Okay, but based on what metric? If you remember, there were also developers claiming the Wii U was weaker than XB360 before it was released.

What I'm saying is that a comment like that can be interpreted in several ways. If you take the comment into context with all the other info we have about Nintendo and NX, I guess I've come to a different conclusion.

I think the odds of Nintendo making a console that's more powerful than PS4 are slim to none. I know they have a new CEO, but I haven't seen any indication that their core philosophy has changed. How many years has Nintendo tried to gain back third party support? Even if they did make a system more powerful, they have every reason to believe they still won't get that support. The damage is done. It's over. Period. End of story.

Imo, everything they are doing and all the info that's been revealed about NX indicates that they're moving on from the traditional "console war" mindset and will try to leverage the success and support they've had with their handhelds and incorporate it into their NX console.

Their core philosophy has been to make new console stronger than older ones? You seem to be under the impression that the PS4 is some powerhouse hard to attain standard when in reality it was outdated when it was released and is even moreso 2 years later

 

[Arkam]

Do they really have to? I'd love for someone like Arkam to chime in on this but my impression is that one of the main reasons for the higher development cost of games with realistic visuals is that they're often made with a bloated, brute-force development strategy. Just looking at the credits of a couple games, I have to ask;

Why does fucking Black Ops 3 need twice as many writers as Persona 4? Why is a military shooter's art section bigger than Splatoon's development team as a whole, localization included? If you want a comparison with a more realistic-looking game, BLOPS 3's art team would make up roughly two thirds of XBCX's entire staff.

I think it's absolutely possible to make a realistic game on a budget, especially if your main focus will be tight, polished gameplay mechanics with an aesthetically pleasing, but not technologically impressive presentation, like many games developed with a Nintendo-like design philosophy in mind,

You are both right. The more realistic you want something (more detailed textures/models/animation/lighting/etc) the more it costs. Usually more detail means more work, more work means more money. You CAN take a basic rigging ssytem and get "ok" animations, but if you want something that looks nice you will need a talented animation artist and time to make it great. Also remember the more layers of anything you add the more possibility there is to break something. SO this means more QA is needed.

That said most (if not all) AAA development is a bloated shitshow filled with a few people who spend more time on FB & Youtube than working. ANd then there is all the "fun things" (Kickoff/alpha/launch parties, creature comforts, etc) that are extra icing on the cake. And as you noticed if you look at the credits from a game by EA/Activision you will see hundreds of people listed.... even though a mere fraction actually worked on the game. Many of those people made internal tools that MIGHT have been leveraged or a legal team that MIGHT have been used to draw up a licensing contract etc.

So at the end of the day making high quality detailed games is not cheap. Tools are getting to the point where a game can be made quicker and cheaper, but sacrifices still need to be made.

Spoiler

Fun Fact: In AAA game dev the marketing is sometimes the largest chunk of teh budget

 

[10k]

I figured out why we haven't had any leaks or know anything about the NX. Because Nintendo doesn't know what the NX is either. #Leakproof

 

[Neoxon]

Unless they release another in 3years with this one being forward compatible like phones are. They can baiscally always match and overtake the competition that way.

I'm actually somewhat expecting this.

 

[Arkam]

I figured out why we haven't had any leaks or know anything about the NX. Because Nintendo doesn't know what the NX is either. #Leakproof

Now no one go scream the sky is falling.... but around thanksgiving I was chatting with two friends who work at my old studio (a Sr Designer and a Lead Env Artist, SO seasoned vets but clearly not leadership) about the Nintendo NX... And neither even knew it was a thing

So at the very least Nintendo has not shown it to all that many westen devs at that point. Or my friends are for once in their lives honoring their NDA over their FrienDA

 

[TheChewyWaffles]

Not around these parts. People here were damn stoked it was a more traditional console.

I recall a lot of negativity about the crappy "tablet"

 

[Bowl0l]

The bolded is also something I fear. The NX is sure to be a great Nintendo console, but the ramifications of a mid-gen release could hit them pretty hard if not done well.

It all depends on the concept reveal. If there is a hint that NX home console is only slightly powerful than a WiiU, game over.

 

[antonz]

I recall a lot of negativity about the crappy "tablet"

That and the Gaming Press was quick to try and sabotage the whole thing. Even though many of them were flown up to Nintendo the Week before to see the Wii U and have hands on time. Moment E3 hit the articles were "Add on or New Console?" etc.

Wii U from Nintendo end to the Press was a clusterfuck. When they admitted they restarted development of the console from the beginning it became apparent WIIHD was a thing that got shelved in favor of the tablet controller

 

[10k]

Now no one go scream the sky is falling.... but around thanksgiving I was chatting with two friends who work at my old studio (a Sr Designer and a Lead Env Artist, SO seasoned vets but clearly not leadership) about the Nintendo NX... And neither even knew it was a thing

So at the very least Nintendo has not shown it to all that many westen devs at that point. Or my friends are for once in their lives honoring their NDA over their FrienDA

Yikes. Do they work for a major publisher and did any of them leak you Wii U stuff? If yes to both then I'd be worried. If no to both then I'm not worried. myne they did honour their NDA's this time since many of our Nintendo insiders have been silent compared to the Wii U. Revised NDA's I guess or or serious ramifications.

I'd imagine the Japanese pubs and Ubisoft got a look at it first while the CES back room stuff will be for the western studios.