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[MightyHedgehog]

Outside of the ultra-niche audience that buys reproductions and microscopically small runs of homebrew cartridges for existing retro consoles, it's basically completely impractical.

 

[Nosgotham]

As far as I can tell, we're in the midst of a shift to digital. Consumers are slowly, but surely, learning to accept digital purchases. They are also turning more to streaming for their media, which involves no ownership at all. Companies are happy with this.

This fact reduces the feasibility of a return to cartridges to near-zero.

nah. if that happens, im done. physical will prevail.

as a collector the biggests pros for me are lack of possible disc rot and scratches leaving games unplayable. and no longer relying on a disc drive to read discs, which usually go out after a certain time.

 

[Gxgear]

With some indie titles getting the physical release treatment in a limited capacity, it might be cool if they spice it up a bit with a retro-themed CE: a mini pseudo console of sorts and have the game as a cartridge. But that's all I got.

 

[potatohead]

I have the game. It's mine. Forever. I can play it on my console or any other console. I don't need to install anything or have internet access. I can pass it to a friend. I can put it on a shelf when I'm done. When the publisher decides they no longer want to sell the game, I still have it on my shelf.

The "Not Downloading games thing" is a pretty large factor for many people. Anywhere you have monthly data caps or slow internet.

If it can take 3 days to fully download a large modern AAA game. Why would you want to wait that long and use a large portion of your data when you could go and pick up a physical copy. You'd be surprised how small data caps can be in rural areas in certain parts of the world

You really couldn't read the next sentence could you.

It was that hard.

"Besides the "not downloading games" thing. But again, why wouldn't you just use the more ubiquitous and cheaper media in optical discs?"

Amazing guys, well done.

 

[muu]

A disk system-esque kiosk that lets retailers do a single write for any game released would be fun. Get rid of store inventory (other than ubiquitous titles), customers can always choose from entire inventory.

 

[xevis]

You really couldn't read the next sentence could you.

It was that hard.

"Besides the "not downloading games" thing.

There are more issues with digital than just the inconvenience associated with moving bits from a remote to your machine. A number of those were spelled out for you.

But again, why wouldn't you just use the more ubiquitous and cheaper media in optical discs?"

Discs require a machine with moving parts and those break. Discs are also prone to scratching and eventual rot. Cartridges, by comparison, have few disadvantages and last forever.

 

[Pokemaniac]

I think CD's are objectively superior in context of technology. Longer playtime, dynamic range, easier to skip tracks, smaller dimensions etc.

With carts you have almost the opposite situation with them being superior to discs.

If you have to preface your statement with "I think", you're probably not making an objective statement.

 

[ultrazilla]

I'd give my left nut if Nintendo made the NX cartridge based.

I like the format, faster, more reliable, sturdier and cooler boxes with all the artwork and
screenshots.

Just recently bought a Retron 5 and love it. Picked up Castlevania for the NES at the local flea market for $20 and it worked like a charm. Pristine copy, even the sticker on the cartridge was clear and colorful!

I was taken for a sucker over the Coleco Chameleon system as I had wanted an all new cartridge system.

It would be something special for let's say a bunch of indie developers to come together to make a dedicated cartridge based console together. Have it run anything from pong type graphics up to 32 or 64 bit era graphics. Include an Ethernet port for updates and I think it'd be cool.

It's amazing that Atari cartridges are 30 plus years old and almost all of them work flawlessly if they were taken care of. That's a testament to the format imo.

Of course, I'm looking at it through rose tinted glasses as I'm 44 and grew up with Atari, Coleco, Intellevision, Vectrex, Odyssey 2, Atari 5200, 7800 and so on.

But until that day comes, I've got my Retron.

 

[Nostremitus]

Whenever companies go ahead and try to "re-invent the wheel" I can't help but laugh. Why would go and do you own proprietary thing when the market has spoken and said that CDs/DVDs/BRs are the way to go. Cheap to manufacture, proven technology, plenty of space, lightweight. Honestly some of the stuff you listed OP as Pro's I just don't feel they are very good.

Less shelf space - Most racks at stores are universal, and made for full size disks.
Speed - As far as I know most games already cache a lot of their data to the console. Not gaining much here.
Faster switching of games - non issue. Then you have to take into account that the metal connectors in the cartridges are metal and rust, get dirty, etc.

I'm not going to respond to all your points, but basically my argument is that it's a lot of hassle for not much gain. As a consumer, I don't want more expensive media. And like many others have mentioned, the market is moving to digital media. I'm already there with Steam. I want my games to be decoupled from the hardware, and be able to run on any system I own. If console manufacturers don't want to be open then fine, but at least let me play your old games in newer systems free of charge.

Discs have proven themselves to be inadequate as games are having to be installed onto systems from the disc in order to make up for speed deficiencies.

Acting like the metal connections on cartridges are in any way less reliable than a disc is honestly strange to me. Discs get disc rot and are more easily damaged than cartridges.

Also, are you asking for all consoles to be dropped and everything moved to PC with your last point? Because what you are asking would require that every game made shares a development ecosystem in order to all play on whatever device you want so dedicated consoles can't exist/ would serve no purpose for the console manufacturer in that world.

 

[jdstorm]

You really couldn't read the next sentence could you.

It was that hard.

"Besides the "not downloading games" thing. But again, why wouldn't you just use the more ubiquitous and cheaper media in optical discs?"

Amazing guys, well done.

Hey everybody lets get our diskmans out like its 1999. Optical disks have been largely replaced in portable devices for a reason. They've even been replaced in home consoles where they just act as an installer disk. I'm honestly surprised companies don't have game vending machines that you plug a USB stick into to buy games physically. It would be far more convenient then disk installs. It would also cost them less.

The reason Nintendo wants to do this is because they are releasing a portable system, and in that environment Optical Discs don't make sense

 

[AppleSeason]

Nah, cartridges were a limitation of the past, and cost-wise not feasible anymore. Now that we have decent flash storage (3ds and vita aren't really cartridges, just differently shaped memory cards) and cheap hard drives, we are in good middle point between cartridges and optical media (If developers bother with optimising load times. Hello, Broken Age Vita)


A it offtopic, despite everybody going digital, physical retail games will still be around for a long time (at least for mainstream AAA games), while we still have non tech-savvy people. Those who buy games as gifts in "real stores", people still afraid of using a credit card on internet (with reason)... But I cry when I think about the post-digital distribution generations who will never understand why physical matters to us.

 

[Terrell]

Cool, I made it to an OP. And thanks for making one. I had toyed with the idea of a thread like this after the last NX thread closure, because cartridge talk being sucked into those black holes of discussion really didn't allow for an extended conversation on the subject.

A it offtopic, despite everybody going digital, physical retail games will still be around for a long time (at least for mainstream AAA games), while we still have non tech-savvy people. Those who buy games as gifts in "real stores", people still afraid of using a credit card on internet (with reason)... But I cry when I think about the post-digital distribution generations who will never understand why physical matters to us.

Basically. People can talk about the digital age, but even in the movie space, where digital has clearly seen even wider acceptance when compared to video games on consoles and handhelds, you still see discs on shelves. Will they be there forever? Clearly they won't be, but they ARE still there. The prevalence of digital will not somehow remove the necessity to address physical media in the short term, because infrastructure simply isn't there to meet the demands of an all-online media distribution for ANY industry except the music industry, and even then there are still challenges to overcome.

That being said, the disc-based format is starting to show signs of its own frailty, especially with video games, given the amount of games that require hard drive installations. Having to use another storage medium as a crutch to supplement the primary storage medium for distribution tells me that it's not fit as a storage media format for distribution anymore.

 

[BladeoftheImmortal]

they are?
last time i checked an entire marketing campaign of a major console was completely destroyed by trying to going all digital while the campaign of its main adversary based their entire campaign on NOT having that feature

Last time you checked you were wrong. It was about invasive DRM and not giving you a choice in the matter because instead of going all digital a disk was still there.

 

[AppleSeason]

Cool, I made it to an OP. And thanks for making one. I had toyed with the idea of a thread like this after the last NX thread closure, because cartridge talk being sucked into those black holes of discussion really didn't allow for an extended conversation on the subject.



Basically. People can talk about the digital age, but even in the movie space, where digital has clearly seen even wider acceptance when compared to video games on consoles and handhelds, you still see discs on shelves. Will they be there forever? Clearly they won't be, but they ARE still there. The prevalence of digital will not somehow remove the necessity to address physical media in the short term, because infrastructure simply isn't there to meet the demands of an all-online media distribution for ANY industry except the music industry, and even then there are still challenges to overcome.

That being said, the disc-based format is starting to show signs of its own frailty, especially with video games, given the amount of games that require hard drive installations. Having to use another storage medium as a crutch to supplement the primary storage medium for distribution tells me that it's not fit as a storage media format for distribution anymore.

What worries me is that the new generations don't know what we are losing over time, and that will affect the people who want physical for reasons other than "owning" it. I prefer Blu-ray movies because the true HD formats, but somebody who has only known streaming (or pirates) will never know about it. Like people who can't tell shit about audio quality thanks to crappy 128kb rips and cheap apple earbuds. Same goes for cartridge games and no load times. People not appreciating why physical matters in some media would end reducing sales, thus increasing the possibilities of pyshical formats dying. Games are not affected as much as video or music, though.

Still, I don't see cartridges as useful here. We can't afford anymore custom chips to improve the consoles like in the nes times, and they were a real problem between poor storage capability and price, despite no load times (with exceptions).

I hope we will have the chance of using physical media (be it handheld flash cards or Blu-ray), but real cartridges? Sorry, those are better dead.

 

[Persona7]

Paying dollars instead of cents per unit? not going to happen.

 

[Flopfan]

wait a minute. now we are moving toward removing physical media entirely and you talk about feasibility of going back to cartridges?

maybe as a retro console thing , it could work?

 

[Eradicate]

Again, I want to update the OP, but just a few quick replies:

As far as I can tell, we're in the midst of a shift to digital. Consumers are slowly, but surely, learning to accept digital purchases. They are also turning more to streaming for their media, which involves no ownership at all. Companies are happy with this.

This fact reduces the feasibility of a return to cartridges to near-zero.

SG-17, who posted earlier, started up a thread discussing the shift to digital purchases and what would motivate people to do so. I want to join in on that at some point too, but for people's reference:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1209612

Feel free to discuss digital here too though, as it is related to the likelihood of cartridges coming back, but that thread is focused on it!

Anyways, good points yyr. There is a big shift and mindsets are changing, especially in the era of "apps" and how quick acquiring games and things can be. I will reply later to those particular posts, but there are still physical media purchasers and it has its place still. I mean, you can still buy CDs and DVDs, and now vinyls are getting pressed again! It's an interesting scenario with the market; who knows where it will all land!

Isn't a 4GB Vita cart like several dollars?

vs. the 50 cents or whatever for a 50GB Blu-ray.

ROM chips are generally faster than discs now. They are just much more expensive at higher file sizes. Can't recall the specific numbers but I think it's like $1 for a blu-ray versus $3-4 for ROM (and similar kinds of memory) of similar size.

There are likely more in the thread, but thank you both for adding price estimates to the discussion. It's really one of the biggest sticking points to cartridge adoption. They are getting cheaper, though, and it's not a foreign concept to Nintendo and their handhelds. It's just expanding that to their (or another console company) consoles is the interesting thing to see!

I've been hoping for a return to cartridges since mid last gen. I'd love it. As games get bigger and more complex it has to be inevitable, surely. Not everyone has the connection to go full digital and sooner or later games will be too big for discs. Unless yet another format is created, obviously.

The connection thing is my biggest problem with all-digital right now. I live in a rural state and it can take me overnight to download a 1-2 GB update on my computer. I also like owning physical things for other reasons, but being able to buy it, pop it in, and play is the most compelling!

 

[AppleSeason]

I also like owning physical things for other reasons, but being able to buy it, pop it in, and play is the most compelling!

Don't forget "Downloading a 1-2gb Day one patch" between pop it in and play. Even physical games have little value nowadays if they are released as a unfinished mess.

 

[Eradicate]

Cool, I made it to an OP. And thanks for making one. I had toyed with the idea of a thread like this after the last NX thread closure, because cartridge talk being sucked into those black holes of discussion really didn't allow for an extended conversation on the subject.

Basically. People can talk about the digital age, but even in the movie space, where digital has clearly seen even wider acceptance when compared to video games on consoles and handhelds, you still see discs on shelves. Will they be there forever? Clearly they won't be, but they ARE still there. The prevalence of digital will not somehow remove the necessity to address physical media in the short term, because infrastructure simply isn't there to meet the demands of an all-online media distribution for ANY industry except the music industry, and even then there are still challenges to overcome.

That being said, the disc-based format is starting to show signs of its own frailty, especially with video games, given the amount of games that require hard drive installations. Having to use another storage medium as a crutch to supplement the primary storage medium for distribution tells me that it's not fit as a storage media format for distribution anymore.

Hey, thank YOU for that incredible post! I really only hope that people, even if they don't comment, do read it to learn an awful lot! It's a part of the industry that is rarely looked at!

Also, really good point about using other media as a crutch. Sometimes it just seems to be getting out of hand. When an initial update is almost larger than the game, why bother? I mean, at that point, REALLY save the cost and just print paper cards with a special code on it to log in, claim, and download the entire thing!

I keep thinking about "far" in the future and what that'll mean with physical media. I think having instant access to most things will happen, but in our humanity, we have this "tick" about collecting different treasured items. I haven't met anyone who has gone entirely digital with music or anything that is "proud" of their collection. It seems more like hoarding but the enjoyment isn't really there. (All anecdotal, I know!) This is fine for many, but not for all, and there has to be a happy medium that the future will head towards lest we all become automatons lacking certain portions of our character taken away from us. That could include a 10x15 TB cartridge that has every Nintendo game ever made on it up to that point too, just something to grasp!

I'd give my left nut if Nintendo made the NX cartridge based.

I like the format, faster, more reliable, sturdier and cooler boxes with all the artwork and
screenshots.

Just recently bought a Retron 5 and love it. Picked up Castlevania for the NES at the local flea market for $20 and it worked like a charm. Pristine copy, even the sticker on the cartridge was clear and colorful!

I was taken for a sucker over the Coleco Chameleon system as I had wanted an all new cartridge system.

It would be something special for let's say a bunch of indie developers to come together to make a dedicated cartridge based console together. Have it run anything from pong type graphics up to 32 or 64 bit era graphics. Include an Ethernet port for updates and I think it'd be cool.

It's amazing that Atari cartridges are 30 plus years old and almost all of them work flawlessly if they were taken care of. That's a testament to the format imo.

Of course, I'm looking at it through rose tinted glasses as I'm 44 and grew up with Atari, Coleco, Intellevision, Vectrex, Odyssey 2, Atari 5200, 7800 and so on.

But until that day comes, I've got my Retron.

I love those old cartridge systems too! Atari 2600 was just a bit before my time, but I grew up with it from my dad owning it. The power adapter thing broke, but I got a new one, and it's just incredible to me that all the cartridges still work great! Yet, there are new disc-based games which won't read!

Plus, I want to add in the OP that I don't mean NES-N64 cartridges, just basically any medium which uses ROM instead of a disc. It could be pretty slick this day and age!

An indie game machine could certainly work! If the cartridge was an SD card or similar, bundles of games could be put together and sold that way as collections (ultimate Humble Bundle sets, for instance) to use in the system.

(Nice find with Castlevania!)

A disk system-esque kiosk that lets retailers do a single write for any game released would be fun. Get rid of store inventory (other than ubiquitous titles), customers can always choose from entire inventory.

What's funny is that someone in another thread recently posted a scan of Nintendo having such a kiosk back in the Famicom era! How incredible is that? What if that were to return? Less worry about internet thievery from all-digital, gives retailers a new way to make money, and parents/children can get exactly what they want paying with gift cards, cash, etc. immediately.

Don't forget "Downloading a 1-2gb Day one patch" between pop it in and play. Even physical games have little value nowadays if they are released as a unfinished mess.

That is so true, and a whole different can of worms! In my view, I'd rather wait to get the REAL finished game than the "beta" version that needs immediately upgraded. I'm fine with some updating, but what's really missing that it needs that large of a patch? That just screams unfinished to me. DLC is fine too, also providing a great time to disseminate updates.

 

[Skittzo0413]

I love this topic!
What very few people seem to be talking about is the potential SAVINGS in the console BOM you get by removing the optical drive, even though that point is in the OP. I don't know if anyone can come up with a net savings you get by:
removing the cost of the actual drive, having a smaller case, requiring less active cooling, lighter console for shipping, many less console failures/returns/repairs, smaller HDD required (since you wouldn't need to install games), etc.

I would think that could add up to a very decent amount of savings, savings which could be used to include more expensive chips to the console itself, while keeping the MSRP down.


I know this is completely hypothetical but if, as a consumer or developer, you were given these two choices:

1. A $399 console with an optical drive, specs at ~PS4 maybe a bit higher, physical games cost $0.20 to manufacture, 500gb hard drive for the base model

2. A $349 console with no optical drive, specs a bit higher than PS4K/NEO, physical games cost $4 to manufacture, 128gb hard drive for the base model

what would you want to buy or develop for?

 

[sora87]

I'd take cartridges over the shitty digital future we're heading for

 

[MacTag]

Poking around Macronix's Q1 2016 QR report it seems they have a 32nm node in the testing phase for full XtraROM production later this year. Current 3DS games use a 75nm production line (maxxing out at 8GB last we'd heard), which means quite a density jump! Maybe cheap 32GB+ NX Game Cards aren't so farfetched after all.

 

[OmegaDL50]

I've glossed upon this idea. Although considering the logistics I am unsure if it was unfeasible.

Although it COULD work if they base the storage medium on some sort of read-only flash based media with heavy encryption.

If the Cards based on the Secure Digital standard, they can be based on 64GB SDXC variant (MicroSDXC works too) which would comparable to the 50GB dual layer Bluray discs in terms of storage capacity.

Even if Sony or Microsoft opt for UHD Bluray's with 100GB capacities for their next generation units, even SDXC meet that at 128GB capacity units.

Although buying the flash media in bulk would save money, I don't know exactly how much cost would be saved.

There is the benefit of faster seek times, no moving parts. However there IS the issue of the metal contacts wearing out due to oxidation over time, but by the time this matters the console itself would likely long dead before such thing began to occur.

 

[MacTag]

Nintendo won't use flash, it's more expensive and more volatile than rom.

 

[Eradicate]

Poking around Macronix's Q1 2016 QR report it seems they have a 32nm node in the testing phase for full XtraROM production later this year. Current 3DS games use a 75nm production line (maxxing out at 8GB last we'd heard), which means quite a density jump! Maybe cheap 32GB+ NX Game Cards aren't so farfetched after all.

You revived this thread!!!

Great scouting work! I'm excited now! They are a key supplier to Nintendo. Hmmmm...!!!

(I want cartridges to come back!)

 

[Harlock]

Things need to be solid and big in your hands to you really feel the satisfaction. And because that the cartridge in the NX has to be bigger than the ones in 3DS or Vita to bring back the good times. At least the size of game gear cartridges. But the bigger the better.