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[Neiteio]

Saying that I don't see the point in playing a game you are not actually playing does not mean I am against such a mode existing. Souls games are literally the only games I believe should not have scaling difficulty. And even those have somewhat of an easy mode if you grind enough.

The Souls/borne games are set in such beautifully realized worlds that someone could lose themselves in them for hours, days or weeks — even without fighting any monsters. Simply appreciating the artistry and architecture, the atmosphere and attention to detail is its own reward. So is exploring the intricate maps and collecting items and piecing together the story from their lore.

For people who just want to enjoy those aspects... and for people who might only be able to enjoy those aspects, due to physical limitations or lack of skill... I don't see why it'd hurt to have a "casual mode" that allows them to streamline combat to varying degrees. The game could still have a message at the start that strongly encourages the player to play the game the way it was intended. The game could still make it clear that the intended experience is on the default difficulty. But there would still be a way for everyone to enjoy the game on some level, regardless of their situation.

Seriously, if Platinum can do it, with the most hardcore action games in the world, then From can do it, too.

 

[oSoLucky]

Souls games have an easy mode

It's called summoning


people just don't want to call it an easy mode so they can feel okay about using it

Those games aren't even that fucking hard to be put on this pedestal people have them on. I was there Day 1 on Demon's and Dark's NA release, years before the majority of the fanbase touched either and yet i keep seeing people spew this nonsense to me about how they're sacred. Once you've died to all the bullshit cheap gimmicks in any of the games enough to memorize them they're a joke, whereas actual hard games never are such.

 

[Zukuu]

Soon. :v

 

[StrongBlackVine]

The Souls/borne games are set in such beautifully realized worlds that someone could lose themselves in them for hours, days or weeks — even without fighting any monsters. Simply appreciating the artistry and architecture, the atmosphere and attention to detail, is its own reward, as is exploring the intricate maps and collecting items and piecing together the story from their lore.

For people who just want to enjoy those aspects... and for people who might only be able to enjoy those aspects, due to physical limitations or lack of skill... I don't see why it'd hurt to have a "casual mode" that allows them to streamline combat to varying degrees. The game could still have a message at the start that strongly encourages the player to play the game the way it was intended. The game could still make it clear that the intended experience is on the default difficulty.

But that isn't the way those games are designed. If they were then why has From Software not added a traditional difficulty slider 5 games in? The games have very little overt storytelling so you would be literally be just walking around looking at stuff.

 

[Neiteio]

Those games aren't even that fucking hard to be put on this pedestal people have them on. I was there Day 1 on Demon's and Dark's NA release, years before the majority of the fanbase touched either and yet i keep seeing people spew this nonsense to me about how they're sacred. Once you've died to all the bullshit cheap gimmicks in any of the games enough to memorize them they're a joke, whereas actual hard games never are such.

You're assuming everyone is able-bodied like you. The amount of dexterity required in Souls games could be physically taxing for someone with limited hands. Not to mention the endurance required in a game where boss battles can rage on for 10 minutes and you don't have the option to pause.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Soon. :v

Didn't I see you in the Asura's Wrath thread, a game where you actually can't lose

 

[Neiteio]

But that isn't the way those games are designed. If they were then why has From Software not added a traditional difficulty slider 5 games in? The games have very little overt storytelling so you would be literally be just walking around looking at stuff.

If someone genuinely just wants to explore the game world, why would you deny them this? If that was all they could physically do, and if it was all they wanted to do, why not allow them a separate mode that simplifies the combat so they can enjoy the other aspects?

I just see it as a videogame form of sharing, a life skill I learned when I was like 3 or 4.

 

[Neoleo2143]

Appealing to the top 1% of players is asking your game to not sell as well as it could these days, better it be an option that can make the game less intimidating to play for some. It's worth noting that Platinum redesigns entire encounters for every difficulty level for this reason, to get your skill up to each level as you platinum each stage. It is an immensely satisfying journey of growth. But players will have to start somewhere. So yes, a "Baby mode" is totally acceptable because platinum tries to appeal to the best of them any way. Play on hard mode from the beginning if you're that skilled. It'll appeal more to your sensibilities.

 

[oSoLucky]

Soon. :v

You're being ridiculous.

You're assuming everyone is able-bodied like you. The amount of dexterity required in Souls games could be physically taxing for someone with limited hands. Not to mention the endurance required in a game where boss battles can rage on for 10 minutes and you don't have the option to pause.

I'm saying it's stupid to hold this series above having an easy mode as if its some sacred cow of difficulty when it's not. I advocate for easy mode and pause features and I have plenty of Souls Platinums in my profile.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Also, let's not pretend the Phoenix Spear in the first game wasn't a win button. Why aren't people getting mad about that?

Oh right, because no one who feels this is an attack on their masculinity actually played Nier.

 

[Neiteio]

I'm saying it's stupid to hold this series above having an easy mode as if its some sacred cow of difficulty when it's not. I advocate for easy mode and pause features and I have plenty of Souls Platinums in my profile.

Ah, OK, that's cool. I thought you were against accessibility. Glad to see we're on a similar page.

 

[That Dude John]

I just hope it means they are that confident in the story.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

If someone genuinely just wants to explore the game world, why would you deny them this? If that was all they could physically do, and if it was all they wanted to do, why not allow them a separate mode that simplifies the combat so they can enjoy the other aspects?

I just see it as a videogame form of sharing, a life skill I learned when I was like 3 or 4.

Hey if From Software wants to trivialize their games I can't stop them. The fact that they have not done it makes me believe they have a vision of how it should be played. Even the summoning that was mentioned is implemented in a way as to discourage or prevent players from experiencing the entire game in co-op. It's generally a last resort.

I admit that I was only thinking of able-bodied people when this topic of auto-play came up, but the notion that I'm an elitist that doesn't want people to finish games is way off the mark.

 

[CaviarMeths]

I just hope it means they are that confident in the story.

Nope.

It means they want more people to be able to enjoy their game.

Sorry.

 

[Fat4all]

I just hope it means they are that confident in the story.

It's Yoko Taro. Even when one of his stories is on a bit of shaky ground, it's still fascinating stuff.

Story is one of the few things they had to worry about.

 

[oSoLucky]

Also, let's not pretend the Phoenix Spear in the first game wasn't a win button. Why aren't people getting mad about that?

Oh right, because no one who feels this is an attack on their masculinity actually played Nier.

Bought another PS3 just to the plsy the game. Just started. LTTP thread should be coming soon.

 

[Neoleo2143]

Also, let's not pretend the Phoenix Spear in the first game wasn't a win button. Why aren't people getting mad about that?

Oh right, because no one who feels this is an attack on their masculinity actually played Nier.

Nier's combat violence was simply a means to an end, both gameplay wise and narrative wise. It was not really something players could relish on their own terms.

Now you have combat that can appeal to the top brass of action game players. But most of them are going to ask for both of these easy modes as well as Dante Must Die difficulties because they understand that this genre survives on both casuals who love spectacle and hardcore players who love to press their dexterity and creativity in the mechanics.

 

[Neiteio]

Hey if From Software wants to trivialize their games I can't stop them. The fact that they have not done it makes me believe they have a vision of how it should be played. Even the summoning that was mentioned is implemented in a way as to discourage or prevent players from experiencing the entire game in co-op. It's generally a last resort.

It doesn't trivialize anything if the "intended way" is still available and the default. It just allows more people to enjoy the game who might otherwise not be able to enjoy it all.

Again, it does not hurt you or your experience. At all. In any way. By opposing this option, you are effectively just telling handicapped people, "Sorry, I don't want to share."

And I really don't think From's omission of this feature is taking a stance on what's proper, so much as perhaps failing to consider this option from another viewpoint.

I find it encouraging that Platinum is sending a signal to the rest of the industry that even the most hardcore titles can still have accessibility options — and at no cost to the game's vision or original demographic.

 

[Neoleo2143]

It doesn't trivialize anything if the traditional way is still available and the default. It just allows people to enjoy the game who might otherwise not be able to enjoy it all.

Again, it does not hurt you or your experience. At all. In any way. You are literally just telling handicapped people, "Sorry, I don't want to share."

I really don't think From's omission of this feature is this taking a stance so much as perhaps failing to consider this option from another viewpoint.

I find it encouraging that Platinum might be sending a signal to the rest of the industry that even the most hardcore titles can still have accessibility options, and at no loss to the game's vision or original demographic.

I'm pretty sure there's a GDC talk where Inaba talks about the necessity to appeal to the casuals without sacrificing the core mechanical depth.

 

[KZXcellent]

When did it become a Dark Souls thread? :V

 

[Raonak]

I like they have the option of this mode, for players who have disabilities, or are just playing it for the story/world.

But it really shouldn't be seen as an easy mode. I remember playing DMC1's easy auto mode and that was actually awful at teaching you the combat system. I completely missed out on the awesomeness of the series until I played through 3 without auto.

 

[CaviarMeths]

When did it become a Dark Souls thread? :V

Every thread is eventually a Dark Souls thread. This one just a little sooner than most.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

It doesn't trivialize anything if the traditional way is still available and the default. It just allows people to enjoy the game who might otherwise not be able to enjoy it all.

Again, it does not hurt you or your experience. At all. In any way. By opposing this option, you are literally just telling handicapped people, "Sorry, I don't want to share."

And I really don't think From's omission of this feature is taking a stance on what's proper, so much as perhaps failing to consider this option from another viewpoint.

I find it encouraging that Platinum might be sending a signal to the rest of the industry that even the most hardcore titles can still have accessibility options — and at no loss to the game's vision or original demographic.

That is just your assumption just like I have mine. I guess we will see if future games by them go that route.

 

[Fat4all]

Hey if From Software wants to trivialize their games I can't stop them. The fact that they have not done it makes me believe they have a vision of how it should be played. Even the summoning that was mentioned is implemented in a way as to discourage or prevent players from experiencing the entire game in co-op. It's generally a last resort.

You're equating two different studios works.

The fact of the matter is that this optional feature is nothing new to Platinum/Kamiya games and the quality of their works gameplay has shined through in spades.

 

[Neoleo2143]

When did it become a Dark Souls thread? :V

Because "dumbing down an action game" seems to attract that idea. Dark Souls' firmness in a single difficulty is admirable but it should not be the only viewpoint in this industry.

 

[Neiteio]

I'm pretty sure there's a GDC talk where Inaba talks about the necessity to appeal to the casuals without sacrificing the core mechanical depth.

On this note:

While I think autoplay should always be an available option, for those who absolutely need it, I do think the ideal is to also have an option where the input requirements are minimal — but there are still some inputs. Perhaps it's just using one button, and perhaps there's a more generous margin of error in terms of timing. But ideally there would still be some form of agency so the handicapped or less skilled player can still feel like they're influencing the action.

So again: I think autoplay should always be available, since someone out there might need it for certain parts of the game (i.e. combat). But at the same time, there should also be an option where the less skilled or handicapped player can still feel more involved in terms of inputs.

This was probably the logic behind Bayonetta's touch and one-button modes.

 

[Neiteio]

That is just your assumption just like I have mine. I guess we will see if future games by them go that route.

Regardless of what direction From takes, it doesn't change the fact that more people could enjoy their games with increased accessibility options, and all at no expense to long-time fans such as you or I.

 

[Zukuu]

You're being ridiculous.

Of course. No one cares about it being in the game seriously, but we should be able to discuss it without people name-calling other users with different feelings about it or being passive aggressive by using straw-man arguments.

Tho, the gif pretty much sums up what this mode does. That's exactly what I mean by "different experience" and "changing the medium". Our experiences will never even remotely align by using said feature.

Personally, I think any piece of art should be uniform and there should only exist a single iteration of it. Minor differences between a DC and TC are somewhat benign most of the time, but the difference between the DC and TC of 'Dark City' for example, are utterly drastic for a first time viewer. The TC has a 2 minute voice-over at the beginning that spoils the entire movie and every twist, because the publisher thought it was "too much to handle" for the average movie goer, while the DC doesn't. The DC blew me away when I first watched the movie and was one of the best movies I have seen in the last few years. If I had watched the TC first, it would have been a very boring flick with nothing noteworthy whatsoever. That split in experiences, which applies here as well with people using the "let's play" feature, is just sad to me, since we'll never have the same basis talking about it.

Of course it's a minor pet peeve, but I think making a game a non-game is a really bad approach about making the game more accessible. There are other ways of handling it.

 

[Resonance]

How will an autopilot mode work for Dark Souls though? Usually people would summon phantoms if they want an easier time

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Nier's combat violence was simply a means to an end, both gameplay wise and narrative wise. It was not really something players could relish on their own terms.

Now you have combat that can appeal to the top brass of action game players. But most of them are going to ask for both of these easy modes as well as Dante Must Die difficulties because they understand that this genre survives on both casuals who love spectacle and hardcore players who love to press their dexterity and creativity in the mechanics.

I don't think someone that loved Nier should have to get fucked on the sequel because they don't play a lot of action games. That's the long and short of my argument, really.

Well that and no one should care how other people play their games.

 

[Neiteio]

Of course. No one cares about it being in the game seriously, but we should be able to discuss it without people name-calling other users with different feelings about it or being passive aggressive by using straw-man arguments.

Tho, the gif pretty much sums up what this mode does. That's exactly what I mean by "different experience" and "changing the medium". Our experiences will never even remotely align by using said feature.

Personally, I think any piece of art should be uniform and there should only exist a single iteration of it. Minor differences between a DC and TC are somewhat benign most of the time, but the difference between the DC and TC of 'Dark City' for example, are utterly drastic for a first time viewer. The TC has a 2 minute voice-over at the beginning that spoils the entire movie and every twist, because the publisher thought it was "too much to handle" for the average movie goer, while the DC doesn't. The DC blew me away when I first watched the movie and was one of the best movies I have seen in the last few years. If I had watched the TC first, it would have been a very boring flick with nothing noteworthy whatsoever. That split in experiences, which applies here as well with people using the "let's play" feature, is just sad to me, since we'll never have the same basis talking about it.

Of course it's a minor pet peeve, but I think making a game a non-game is a really bad approach about making the game more accessible. There are other ways of handling it.

Sure, accessibility options make for a different experience. No one is denying this.

But so what? People are self-aware enough to know they chose one experience over another when they chose a certain difficulty level or enabled certain settings. They know from the onset they may not be getting the intended experience.

And yet they may still enjoy it. It might be the only way they can enjoy it. And what's the harm in that? You or I may not see the appeal, but someone else may. And for that person, it may be a great source of relief.

It feels a bit... perverse, to me, how we're dictating the terms on which someone can enjoy an inherently escapist form of entertainment. And that there are some here who want to deny escapism to those who would benefit the most (i.e. those who may be physically unable to go outside and do other things).

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Everyone should play open world games in the exact same order, otherwise everyone is having a different experience, and that is not my definition of video games.

 

[aravuus]

Soon. :v

I can't handle the amount of straw

 

[CaviarMeths]

Wait til ya'll hear about mods on PC games. There's entire communities dedicated to changing the player experience!

 

[duckroll]

Kinda odd that this game is coming out in 5 months and they're still only showing off combat footage. Is this still open world like NieR was? Are there towns and cities? Is it stage based or do you get quests from people? Is there exp? Is there a skill system? Crafting? Crops growing? Fishing? Are there text adventures? Weapon stories?

 

[Neoleo2143]

I don't think someone that loved Nier should have to get fucked on the sequel because they don't play a lot of action games. That's the long and short of my argument, really.

Well that and no one should care how other people play their games.

I completely and totally agree with you. Nier is a lot of things and it needs to get people into those things as best as it can.

Kinda odd that this game is coming out in 5 months and they're still only showing off combat footage. Is this still open world like NieR was? Are there towns and cities? Is it stage based or do you get quests from people? Is there exp? Is there a skill system? Crafting? Crops growing? Fishing? Are there text adventures? Weapon stories?

Single World, not stage based, there are side scrolling segments, they have not spoken about the other "RPG" elements in depth however. The game has tightly sealed its lips outside its core mechanics.

 

[Neiteio]

How will an autopilot mode work for Dark Souls though? Usually people would summon phantoms if they want an easier time

Autopilot in Souls could do exactly what Nier and Bayonetta do: The game helps fight the boss for you. I think this should be an option for those who absolutely need it, and/or those who just want to explore the world and take in the atmosphere and environmental storytelling.

I think there should also be different degrees of autoplay. For example, there should be a tier where minimal button presses are required, with reduced timing, to initiate certain attacks from your character. There could also be an option where you control the movement while the AI handles the attacks and healing, or where you handle the attacks and healing while the AI handles movement. Just enough agency to still be involved — a level of engagement that someone handicapped (but not fully handicapped) could enjoy.

Of course, the default mode would still be the traditional style of play. Everything else could be grouped under "Accessibility Options" on the title screen.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Kinda odd that this game is coming out in 5 months and they're still only showing off combat footage. Is this still open world like NieR was? Are there towns and cities? Is it stage based or do you get quests from people? Is there exp? Is there a skill system? Crafting? Crops growing? Fishing? Are there text adventures? Weapon stories?

They've shown some moving around footage, but it does seem like they're keeping the rest close to their chest.

I'm fine not knowing anything else, but that's just me.

 

[Lothar]

I can't handle the amount of straw

This is the end result. First games get easier and easier each generation. Now they're playing themselves. Then every game will have an invincibility mode. Then it'll just be "Hit start", "Win."

At least my blind sister will be able to beat all of those great games now.

 

[Neiteio]

I haven't played the first Nier, so I wasn't aware it has such a variety of things. I mean, text adventures? That's kind of amazing.

 

[Neiteio]

This is the end result. First games get easier and easier each generation. Now they're playing themselves. Then every game will have an invincibility mode. Then it'll just be "Hit start", "Win."

At least my blind sister will be able to beat all of those great games now.

More like, you can still enjoy games the way you always have, but now your sister may be able to get some enjoyment out of them, too.

The horror, right?

 

[Neoleo2143]

I haven't played the first Nier, so I wasn't aware it has such a variety of things. I mean, text adventures? That's kind of amazing.

Diablo adventures, Text Adventures, Fishing, 3D Bullet Hell, even a little resident evil esque flavor at times. The variety in Nier was one of its strong points.

 

[Battlechili]

Kinda odd that this game is coming out in 5 months and they're still only showing off combat footage. Is this still open world like NieR was? Are there towns and cities? Is it stage based or do you get quests from people? Is there exp? Is there a skill system? Crafting? Crops growing? Fishing? Are there text adventures? Weapon stories?

I think the open-ness that the original Nier had is pretty much confirmed at least.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...ness-of-the-original-and-a-little-more-polish

Nier Automata, of course, will carry on providing those sudden shifts "The basic framework of the game is similar to the first," explains Taro. "You've got action bits and you've got adventuring and exploration as well. When I first got the request to set the game up from Saito-san, he requested a more action type of game, but I personally wanted to make something that was closer to Ocarina of Time, where you've got lots of field areas and you travel and do battle. I thought it was a really natural, really nice way for the game to be, so I tried to twist his brief to make it more of the kind of thing I wanted to make, and I think I've got it more of mine than his."

 

[duckroll]

They've shown some moving around footage, but it does seem like they're keeping the rest close to their chest.

I'm fine not knowing anything else, but that's just me.

I'm sure FFXIII will have towns and cities like every FF before it. They're just not showing any of that in trailers or demos so they don't spoil us before release!

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I'm sure FFXIII will have towns and cities like every FF before it. They're just not showing any of that in trailers or demos so they don't spoil us before release!

Not what I said, but sure.

 

[Neoleo2143]

I'm sure FFXIII will have towns and cities like every FF before it. They're just not showing any of that in trailers or demos so they don't spoil us before release!

I'm suspecting you are right on this one though, if there is a "town", it's likely to be very small considering the implication of Nier 1's ending.

 

[Zukuu]

I haven't played the first Nier, so I wasn't aware it has such a variety of things. I mean, text adventures? That's kind of amazing.

How does text-dungeon, arpg, shmupp, zelda dungeon, resident evil mansion, Diablo-hack-and-slay passage, GOTG OST, incredible deep characters, most immersive 4th wall breaking ever in a game and the one of the biggest roller-coaster of emotions a game has ever delivered sound to you?

Get the game and play it. NOW.

 

[Leona Lewis]

Kinda odd that this game is coming out in 5 months and they're still only showing off combat footage. Is this still open world like NieR was? Are there towns and cities? Is it stage based or do you get quests from people? Is there exp? Is there a skill system? Crafting? Crops growing? Fishing? Are there text adventures? Weapon stories?

It's really bizarre.

It was a pleasant surprise to see gameplay last October so soon after the E3 reveal, but a year later, the only extended gameplay we're getting is still in that same exact gray/brown arena.

And this is after being promised a TGS stage show focusing on the game's RPG elements :-/

 

[duckroll]

How does text-dungeon, arpg, shmupp, zelda dungeon, resident evil mansion, Diablo-hack-and-slay passage, GOTG OST, incredible deep characters, most immersive 4th wall breaking ever in a game and the one of the biggest roller-coaster of emotions a game has ever delivered sound to you?

Get the game and play it. NOW.

Is it on Steam?

 

[CaviarMeths]

This is the end result. First games get easier and easier each generation. Now they're playing themselves. Then every game will have an invincibility mode. Then it'll just be "Hit start", "Win."

At least my blind sister will be able to beat all of those great games now.

I get the feeling that you have never played a Platinum game before.