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[KageMaru]

That the PS4 is 8.4 TF with FP16 is a fact, and in context Cerny was very clear about what that meant. He didn't just throw out the 8.4 TF number and call it a day.

Not sure he elaborated enough with how some people are misunderstanding how applicable that feature is.

 

[Conduit]

PR is PR no matter who or how it's delivered.

No it's not! Stop trying to spin things on MrX level of bullshit.

Cerny was very specific what he said in that interview with Eurogamer.

 

[FutbolBat]

Looks like ps5 will be atleast 8 TF. Preorder confirmed.

With Microsoft sticking with a consistent brand name with xb1 (xb1 alpha, beta, etc), I anticipate sony will go with the same strategy and ditch the number. We'll see if Sony can match MS on compatibility.

 

[Omnistalgic]

It's a comment on 6tf a true 4k. And it's going to come up every time someone brings up the native 4k Scorpio between now and late 2017. Maybe he didn't mean for that to happen. But it will. Oops. It doesn't stick to the pro because they never promised full 4k.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it but you can't deny it casts doubt on the 6tf = 4k association from here on out.

I think so mate, Xbox next will still have more native 4K games than Pro, it’s just that a lot of people don’t care about specs. Visual improvements is all that matters.

Yep Cerny is on Neogaf reading my posts before he do presentations & interviews




By the way he don't mean 8TF is the minimum for native 4K all together but it would be the minimum if they wanted to brute force the full range of PS4 games to native 4K.

But you all can run with these words like chickens with your heads cut off.

Isn’t that the same thing? Brute forcing it is what PC can do, Pro gets to 4K with software tricks. So ins’t he saying 8TF would be the minimum to get there without tricks?

 

[LuvOfThaGame]

That the PS4 is 8.4 TF with FP16 is a fact, and in context Cerny was very clear about what that meant. He didn't just throw it out there.

Its a fact that X1 ESRAM can achieve higher bandwidths than GDDR5 in the PS4.

See my point?

The key missing information is with what and how often. Meanwhile, in medialand and forum land: PS4Pro is really 8.4 TF!!!

He knew what he was doing with that statement.

Just like now.

It's all PR.

Just like Greenberg.

 

[Aklamarth]

Pro gets to 4K with software tricks.

Ehhh, no. If you dress a dog as a sheep it doesn't make it a real sheep. Just saying.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

Microsoft: "Thanks for the heads up bro"

 

[Conduit]

Its a fact that X1 ESRAM can achieve higher bandwidths than GDDR5 in the PS4.

See my point?

The key missing information is with what and how often. Meanwhile, in medialand and forum land: PS4Pro is really 8.4 TF!!!

He knew what he was doing with that statement.

Just like now.

It's all PR.

Just like Greenberg.

Cerny never said that PS4 Pro is a 8.4 TF console. Shit man! Put Cerny in same basket with Greenberg is LOL! Nice try, man!

 

[hesido]

I hope they continue to use lots of trickery to reduce brute 4k rendering overhead even on a 8TF machine, so that power doesn't go to waste.

 

[Clear]

Honestly, does anyone here actually believe that the average person gives a damn whether something is "really" 4k native or simply a close approximation?

The important thing is just that users get a sharper, cleaner, and more colorful image, hitting metrics is less significant than a perceptual difference in quality.

 

[Omnistalgic]

That'd fly if Microsoft was coy and said 4K gaming with a bunch of asterisks, but they haven't, they've made sure to say native 4K and true 4K.

You obvious believe everything PR tells you...

And you also know for a fact most of Scorpio games will be native 4K? (You said it’ll be like PS4 with 1080p games) I dunno, I’m going to take Cerny’s word over yours. If he said even 6TF is not enough for all games to be native, I’m gonna go with that.

 

[Omnistalgic]

Ehhh, no. If you dress a dog as a sheep it doesn't make it a real sheep. Just saying.

Dude, this is just talk tech, get out of here with the warrior mentality.

You haven’t even seen the real world difference (and neither has the generally public) between reaching Native through software tech and native. DF said it’s very very convincing software, what the heck does this even mean, you dress up a dog as a sheep? Sony have been open with how they are getting to 4k which obviously means they think it’s adequate for many gamers. We don’t need to make this a pissing contest.

Please read Clear’s post above...

 

[Saberus]

One more thread turned into a hate thread, sweet.. good to know the console is out next week.

 

[RoadHazard]

Until we can get 1080, 60fps on the regular they can keep 4k.

So never 4K then. Ever.

It's funny to me how some people don't seem to be able to grasp that 60 fps will never be "standard". No matter how powerful the hardware gets, you can always choose to push nicer visuals at 30 fps instead of going for 60. I guess there's some theoretical point where you really can't do more to a single frame (basically when we have achieved perfect photorealism in real-time), but that's a loooooong way off.

 

[Omnistalgic]

Honestly, does anyone here actually believe that the average person gives a damn whether something is "really" 4k native or simply a close approximation?

The important thing is just that users get a sharper, cleaner, and more colorful image, hitting metrics is less significant than a perceptual difference in quality.

QFT...Think I’ll put this in the OP

One more thread turned into a hate thread, sweet.. good to know the console is out next week.

Nah...It’s really not that bad, just a few MS defenders feeling this is a knock against their console of choice. It’s really not IMO, Cerny is just stating his opinion.

- Scorpio will have more native games than Pro regardless of Cerny’s opinion
- Cerny and Sony seem to be proud of what they achieved with Pro
- No need to get so heated about specs read Clear’s posts
- Thread was started to mostly get feedback from tech people, and talk about future consoles
- We’re all friends ‘-)

 

[GOOCHY]

I feel like Cerny should be a back of the house kind of guy. When you put him out in front of a camera or allow him to speak for an interview it seems like he steps in it. He's a geek - let him be a geek. Send someone else to do the PR.

 

[DangerMouse]

It's funny to me how some people don't seem to be able to grasp that 60 fps will never be "standard". No matter how powerful the hardware gets, you can always choose to push nicer visuals at 30 fps instead of going for 60. I guess there's some theoretical point where you really can't do more to a single frame (basically when we have achieved perfect photorealism in real-time), but that's a loooooong way off.

Yup.

 

[SenkiDala]

Sure. One is a marketing person, other is technological engineer.

Exactly... Cerny actually knows what he's talking about, it makes a huge difference (but not for fanboys obviously).

 

[Crimson_Gold]

I feel like Cerny should be a back of the house kind of guy. When you put him out in front of a camera or allow him to speak for an interview it seems like he steps in it. He's a geek - let him be a geek. Send someone else to do the PR.

But what did he say wrong? No ever tried to claim the pro was going to be a native 4k machine. They said from the beginning it was going to be a finesse approach. Smh. Looking for mistakes where aren't any

 

[jobrro]

Are there visually detectable differences with rendering at FP16 (which would give 8.4TF in best case scenarios) compared to standard FP32?

Either way I think Pro will be a massive boost to IQ. Watch Dogs 2 is at 1800p, 4x the 900p of Watch Dogs on OG PS4. Very excited to see the fidelity.

 

[Latimer]

QFT...Think I’ll put this in the OP

Lol really?

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Going by flop ratio, I guess we're lucky Xbox 360 managed to surpass its natural limit of 665x374. 8TF should be much much much more than enough for some games in 4K, and much much much too low for others.

 

[shanew21]

If games like Halo 5 can run at 60 fps and slightly below 1080p, surely a console with 4.5x the computing power (Scorpio) can run that game at 4K 60fps.

IMO Scorpio games (well, first party games) will look exactly the same as regular Xbox One games but they will run at 4K and have slightly better textures due to increased memory. If 4K is your target that's the only way to hit it.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

Dude, this is just talk tech, get out of here with the warrior mentality.

You haven’t even seen the real world difference (and neither has the generally public) between reaching Native through software tech and native. DF said it’s very very convincing software, what the heck does this even mean, you dress up a dog as a sheep? Sony have been open with how they are getting to 4k which obviously means they think it’s adequate for many gamers. We don’t need to make this a pissing contest.

Please read Clear’s post above...

Funny. Apparently plenty cared about 1080p. Why the goal post shifting now?

 

[thelastword]

I honestly think that they are secretly happy if devs can at least manage a proper 1080p game with a high enough framerate. Pro is pretty much them testing the 4k water to see if they want to fully focus on that for PS5.

The PS5 absolutely will cater to 4k 60fps at minimum, 4k 120fps will be common on many titles and 8k 30fps is something you will see on a morsel of titles.

The whole point of the Pro is to push 4k screen production and 4k content, so when the PS5 launches in a few years, pretty much everybody will be ready to take advantage of it with their 4k screens. In the meantime, PS4 is offering many native 4k games, dynamic 4k, close to 4k resolutions and checkerboarding 1800p etc....The fact that they can do all of that with HDR is a really impressive foray into UHD for consoles and I think current 4k screen owners will be impressed by the detail and clarity of their games through these rendering methods.

Lets put this in perspective..... I've had my 1080p screen for close to a decade, I bought it for the PS3, but the PS3 was predominantly 720p games and below. My 1080p screen gets maximum use from my PS4 since the majority of titles are 1080p, only from 2013, and yes, it's always a bummer when I see a 900p title on there, but that's not the worse we still have consoles like the XB1 from 2013 where common resolutions are 720p and 900p.......


I look at the Pro and it's only an iteration of the PS4 but look at the difference, I will be able to play so many 4k native games on it and so many games at resolutions that will be close like 3680x2070, 3520x1980 etc... and of course 1800p checkerboarded with HDR...Even geometry rendered 4k will be a big boost in image clarity over the resolutions we're seeing now...


So if you have to compare my 1080p experience on consoles. Pro is already delivering 4k native (1080p from 2013 consoles) and 1800p (900p from 2013 consoles) and resolutions even higher than 1800p. That's a far cry from what happened with my 1080p screen when I first purchased it years ago, I didn't have such native or close to native games to enjoy on the system 8-9 years back then. I only started enjoying consistent 1080p or even 900p content on it just 3 years ago, but with the Pro, I will be doing much better than that on day one with a 4k screen. So I believe the incentive to buy a 4k screen for the Pro is even greater than it was to purchase a 1080p screen for the PS3, and that's saying something, because the PS4.Pro is not the PS5, it's only a stopgap to usher in UHD gaming and content.

 

[Latimer]

The PS5 absolutely will cater to 4k 60fps at minimum, 4k 120fps will be common on many titles and 8k 30fps is something you will see on a morsel of titles.

You are a riot.

 

[Filthy Casual]

Got no love for this 4K obsession. Granted I haven't played a game in 4K so maybe I haven't seen the light but give me 1080p and a rock solid 60fps and I'm more than content.

 

[Dictator93]

The PS5 absolutely will cater to 4k 60fps at minimum, 4k 120fps will be common on many titles and 8k 30fps is something you will see on a morsel of titles.

Clearly, there is a large precedent for this and consoles definitely always have targetted such ridiculously high-end formats.

 

[platina]

Are there visually detectable differences with rendering at FP16 (which would give 8.4TF in best case scenarios) compared to standard FP32?

I believe ps3/xbox 360 games ran at 16 floating points but I'm not 100% sure. I know the shaders would suffer for one because it's not as precise but we need to see more examples on the pro besides that one indie racing game that doesn't look to have a huge budget.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

The PS5 absolutely will cater to 4k 60fps at minimum, 4k 120fps will be common on many titles and 8k 30fps is something you will see on a morsel of titles.

The whole point of the Pro is to push 4k screen production and 4k content, so when the PS5 launches in a few years, pretty much everybody will be ready to take advantage of it with their 4k screens. In the meantime, PS4 is offering many native 4k games, dynamic 4k, close to 4k resolutions and checkerboarding 1800p etc....The fact that they can do all of that with HDR is a really impressive foray into UHD for consoles and I think current 4k screen owners will be impressed by the detail and clarity of their games through these rendering methods.

Lets put this in perspective..... I've had my 1080p screen for close to a decade, I bought it for the PS3, but the PS3 was predominantly 720p games and below. My 1080p screen gets maximum use from my PS4 since the majority of titles are 1080p, only from 2013, and yes, it's always a bummer when I see a 900p title on there, but that's not the worse we still have consoles like the XB1 from 2013 where common resolutions are 720p and 900p.......


I look at the Pro and it's only an iteration of the PS4 but look at the difference, I will be able to play so many 4k native games on it and so many games at resolutions that will be close like 3680x2070, 3520x1980 etc... and of course 1800p checkerboarded with HDR...Even geometry rendered 4k will be a big boost in image clarity over the resolutions we're seeing now...


So if you have to compare my 1080p experience on consoles. Pro is already delivering 4k native (1080p from 2013 consoles) and 1800p (900p from 2013 consoles) and resolutions even higher than 1800p. That's a far cry from what happened with my 1080p screen when I first purchased it years ago, I didn't have such native or close to native games to enjoy on the system 8-9 years back then. I only started enjoying consistent 1080p or even 900p content on it just 3 years ago, but with the Pro, I will be doing much better than that on day one with a 4k screen. So I believe the incentive to buy a 4k screen for the Pro is even greater than it was to purchase one for a PS3, and that's saying something because it's not even the PS5.

Where do you start with this, lol.

 

[low-G]

That's close to right. However there are Titan X games that won't run maxed at 4K 60fps... (and that's a lot more than 8TF)

 

[Damerman]

PS4Kinda

This didn't get enough love.

 

[panda-zebra]

Reading Cerny's latest comments it's obvious Sony is panic mode. I guess Pro and (especially) slim aint selling as they predicted, so now they take shots at MS.

It was bound to happen sooner or later as sales decline. I mean, how long can you ride the wave called good launch conference with almost no new first party titles... No matter which company you prefer - you can't argue that MS has pretty decent lineup year after year.

So yeah Cerny... dude in 'stylish' t-shirt... And those 8tflops man... Why not add your magical secret sauce with 16 bit operations and make it 16tflops?

Bottom line - Sony needs to get their shit together, getting Jack Tretton back would probably be easiest way to end this PR nightmare. As for now we're left with Cerny-House dynamic combo that just don't work.

Cerny should focus more on engineering and less on interviews so we get something better than Knack Remaster in 4k coming to 8+tflops PS5...

What year is this?

What planet is this?

Just wha...?

I'd rather know, when Sony tries making fun games again.

This thread wouldn't be what it is without such quality input. Bravo.

Sony's messaging regarding the Pro has been awful so far.

So we keep being told. Maybe it's more a case of people hearing what they want to hear?

Just like now.

It's all PR.

Just like Greenberg.

Don't even fucking dare. Cerny is not some shitfuck PR gobshite, he's the lead system architect and is having his words taken out of context, yet again, by a small band of armchair experts with questionable motives.

Some real warryorz up in here, duck for cover.

 

[ScientificPizza]

The PS5 absolutely will cater to 4k 60fps at minimum, 4k 120fps will be common on many titles and 8k 30fps is something you will see on a morsel of titles.

PS5 confirmed to release in 2045

 

[low-G]

Are there visually detectable differences with rendering at FP16 (which would give 8.4TF in best case scenarios) compared to standard FP32?

Either way I think Pro will be a massive boost to IQ. Watch Dogs 2 is at 1800p, 4x the 900p of Watch Dogs on OG PS4. Very excited to see the fidelity.

You're confusing things. FP16 is a HDR rendering target. It's not suddenly taking single precision floating point math units and doubling their workload. That's not how that stuff works at ALL.

Also, going to 64-bit CPUs didn't double 32-bit processing.

 

[thuway]

No. At the initial reveal Microsoft boasted about "true 4k" and "uncompressed pixels" to refer to the fact that project Scorpio is designed for native 4K. The quality though, as Microsoft stated later was Xbox One quality games in native 4K. Scorpio is designed to be powerful enough to run current Xbox One games natively in 4K. There is already a clarification: Xbox One quality graphics. There is no mixed messaging and no hyperbole in that. What I meant by "I hate that 4K is labeled as some overall graphics package." is that I don't know what Cerny is referring to. Is he saying that PC games maxed out will require at least 8TF to run smoothly in 4K? Current PS4 games? Because there are some last gen games on PC that run smoothly in 4K because they aren's graphically demanding enough to stress certain mid-high range GPU's. There are a lot of variables in graphics and 4K is one them, it's not a definition of graphics.

My point still stands. Microsoft's clarification and Scorpio's reveal video were two completely different things. In that video- they went out of their way to establish "True 4K" gaming and the "highest quality pixels". It led to a lot of hysterical expectations and people in general with absolutely zero context on just how radically powerful of a APU you'd need to establish native 4K visuals in "the highest quality" possible.


As for Cerny, if he is out here claiming that 8TF is a good baseline for native 4K quality visuals, than I assume he is referencing PS4 quality (1.84 TF) performance.

 

[MysteryM]

I very much doubt every Scorpio game will be "native and true 4K."

Very much.

Uh they've already said that developers are free to choose the resolution they target.

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

I believe ps3/xbox 360 games ran at FP16 but I'm not 100% sure. I know the shaders would suffer for one because it's not as precise but we need to see more examples on the pro besides that one indie racing game that doesn't look to have a huge budget.

AFAIK use of FP16 pretty much stopped really being used after DX9 came out and became the leading API and a couple years later when the XB360 launched DX9 was already pretty well established.

 

[onQ123]

Sounds about right.

So why did you tell me that it was completely wrong when I was saying the same thing?


http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=210440265#post210440265

I never said it would magically happen & yes I was oversimplifying it. of course you could get PS4 games in 4K on a 6TF console but for PS4/Neo devs to have the same leeway as Xbox One/Scorpio davs Neo would have to be about 8TF.

I'm telling you that's not true.

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

So why did you tell me that it was completely wrong when I was saying the same thing?


http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=210440265#post210440265

Because few if any developers are going to go through the hassle of making use of FP16 in 2016. EDIT: Obviously I'm only talking about games, FP16 still has its uses in other areas.

 

[twobear]

hmm, interesting that the guy who designed the ps4 pro thinks that the minimum for native 4k is above what scorpio can offer!

 

[tzare]

Uh they've already said that developers are free to choose the resolution they target.

just like ps4 pro. Developers choose. On scorpio they have 2 extra TF to work with. I am also sure some won't go native 4K, since this is console gaming after all, better GFX at expense of resolution or framerate is the norm and not the exception.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

The PS5 absolutely will cater to 4k 60fps at minimum, 4k 120fps will be common on many titles and 8k 30fps is something you will see on a morsel of titles.

The whole point of the Pro is to push 4k screen production and 4k content, so when the PS5 launches in a few years, pretty much everybody will be ready to take advantage of it with their 4k screens. In the meantime, PS4 is offering many native 4k games, dynamic 4k, close to 4k resolutions and checkerboarding 1800p etc....The fact that they can do all of that with HDR is a really impressive foray into UHD for consoles and I think current 4k screen owners will be impressed by the detail and clarity of their games through these rendering methods.

Lets put this in perspective..... I've had my 1080p screen for close to a decade, I bought it for the PS3, but the PS3 was predominantly 720p games and below. My 1080p screen gets maximum use from my PS4 since the majority of titles are 1080p, only from 2013, and yes, it's always a bummer when I see a 900p title on there, but that's not the worse we still have consoles like the XB1 from 2013 where common resolutions are 720p and 900p.......


I look at the Pro and it's only an iteration of the PS4 but look at the difference, I will be able to play so many 4k native games on it and so many games at resolutions that will be close like 3680x2070, 3520x1980 etc... and of course 1800p checkerboarded with HDR...Even geometry rendered 4k will be a big boost in image clarity over the resolutions we're seeing now...


So if you have to compare my 1080p experience on consoles. Pro is already delivering 4k native (1080p from 2013 consoles) and 1800p (900p from 2013 consoles) and resolutions even higher than 1800p. That's a far cry from what happened with my 1080p screen when I first purchased it years ago, I didn't have such native or close to native games to enjoy on the system 8-9 years back then. I only started enjoying consistent 1080p or even 900p content on it just 3 years ago, but with the Pro, I will be doing much better than that on day one with a 4k screen. So I believe the incentive to buy a 4k screen for the Pro is even greater than it was to purchase one for a PS3, and that's saying something because it's not even the PS5.

Christ. Just stop.

 

[N.Domixis]

PS5 confirmed to release in 2045

By then we will have PS AI, online multiplayer becomes obsolete, computer bots have achieved human intelligence and outperform human gamers.

AQ (atomic quantum) resolution, 100K fps 6000 year internal battery.

 

[Caayn]

Now that I think about it, It's somewhat funny to see both MS and Sony saying you need roughly 4.5x the power for 4K.

XB1 1.3/1.4TF -> Scorpio 6TF
PS4 1.8TF -> (Possible future version) 8TF?

Both seem to talk about their current console games running in 4K on new hardware.

 

[ScientificPizza]

So why did you tell me that it was completely wrong when I was saying the same thing?


http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=210440265#post210440265

why's this thread so petty though

 

[GinoFelino]

Lot of people in here up in arms about factual information.

This isn't some future sci-fi theoretical scenario.

Like, you can look at PC benchmarks yourself and actually SEE that 8TF is probably the 4K sweet spot for recent AAA games.

Going forward, games in 2-3 years won't run in 4K on 8TF without some serious compromises. Cerny is on the money. He's no snake oil salesman.

Also, this reflects on PS4 Pro's 4K capabilities just as much as it does on Scorpio's. People here seem to be forgetting that.

 

[Regginator]

PS4Kinda

9/10

 

[CyberPunked]

The PS5 absolutely will cater to 4k 60fps at minimum, 4k 120fps will be common on many titles and 8k 30fps is something you will see on a morsel of titles.

Apologies if this is intended as satire.

 

[ScientificPizza]

By then we will have PS AI, online multiplayer becomes obsolete, computer bots have achieved human intelligence and outperform human gamers.

AQ (atomic quantum) resolution, 100K fps 6000 year internal battery.

DF is still gonna be there to roast games that dip below 99k fps tho