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[Omnistalgic]

Lol really?

Funny. Apparently plenty cared about 1080p. Why the goal post shifting now?

Guys it'll be nice not to go down console warrior lane. Do we really need to highlight the difference of PS4/X1 launch? It's not a goalpost moving at all if people are less concerned with resolutions bump right now, have you seen good looking 1080p games lol...but In case you guys are genuine I'll do homework

- PS4/X1 launched at the same time so spec comparison will naturally be stronger
- PS4 launched cheaper and had more under the hood
- MS was the market leader so might be some underdog rooting effect going on, but generally it's all fanboy nonsense
- there were many sites and forums downplaying the power difference
- real world difference is hardly noticeable by a large portion of the user bases
- PS4 was just perceived to be more powerful, most people aren't picking out 1080p from 900p in their living rooms
- This resolution bump may be even less noticeable since it will overall produce finer image quality across the board, nothing will look "bad" whether they hit native, 1800p or something in between.

So yeah I guess you guys can look at it as some goalpost nonsense if you want. But launching a year later matters. Hitting resolutions higher than 1080p is not as big of a deal as standard 1080p was in 2013. 900p was fine for some games on X1 and GAF is not the voice of the gaming audience.

 

[novabolt]

The PS5 absolutely will cater to 4k 60fps at minimum, 4k 120fps will be common on many titles and 8k 30fps is something you will see on a morsel of titles.

The whole point of the Pro is to push 4k screen production and 4k content, so when the PS5 launches in a few years, pretty much everybody will be ready to take advantage of it with their 4k screens. In the meantime, PS4 is offering many native 4k games, dynamic 4k, close to 4k resolutions and checkerboarding 1800p etc....The fact that they can do all of that with HDR is a really impressive foray into UHD for consoles and I think current 4k screen owners will be impressed by the detail and clarity of their games through these rendering methods.

Lets put this in perspective..... I've had my 1080p screen for close to a decade, I bought it for the PS3, but the PS3 was predominantly 720p games and below. My 1080p screen gets maximum use from my PS4 since the majority of titles are 1080p, only from 2013, and yes, it's always a bummer when I see a 900p title on there, but that's not the worse we still have consoles like the XB1 from 2013 where common resolutions are 720p and 900p.......


I look at the Pro and it's only an iteration of the PS4 but look at the difference, I will be able to play so many 4k native games on it and so many games at resolutions that will be close like 3680x2070, 3520x1980 etc... and of course 1800p checkerboarded with HDR...Even geometry rendered 4k will be a big boost in image clarity over the resolutions we're seeing now...


So if you have to compare my 1080p experience on consoles. Pro is already delivering 4k native (1080p from 2013 consoles) and 1800p (900p from 2013 consoles) and resolutions even higher than 1800p. That's a far cry from what happened with my 1080p screen when I first purchased it years ago, I didn't have such native or close to native games to enjoy on the system 8-9 years back then. I only started enjoying consistent 1080p or even 900p content on it just 3 years ago, but with the Pro, I will be doing much better than that on day one with a 4k screen. So I believe the incentive to buy a 4k screen for the Pro is even greater than it was to purchase one for a PS3, and that's saying something because it's not even the PS5.

Me laughing at this post also comes at 4K 60FPS minimum.

 

[Onemic]

This was obvious from the jump. The number of native scorpio titles that arent just last-gen/remastered games will be small.

 

[ghst]

consoles are like the bloke who is learning to play guitar, but refuses to learn anything on his level. when he should have been learning wonderwall he was trying to learn hotel california and it always sounded like shit because he wasn't ready yet, now he's about at the level to play stairway to heaven but is trying to scrape his way through malmsteen arpgeggios.

admirable in a way, but nobody wants to listen to it.

 

[GinoFelino]

consoles are like the bloke who is learning to play guitar, but refuses to learn anything on his level. when he should have been learning wonderwall he was trying to learn hotel california and it always sounded like shit because he wasn't ready yet, now he's about at the level to play stairway to heaven but is trying to scrape his way through malmsteen arpgeggios.

admirable in a way, but nobody wants to listen to it.

Thanks for the laugh.

Spoiler

Seriously though what are you on about

 

[panda-zebra]

I think saying that any amount of FLOPs is enough for 4k gaming is off, and even specifying a single minimum is wrong.

On the one hand, there are absolutely games which can run natively at 4k with less than 8 TF.

On the other hand, my GPU runs at 10.2 TF and it's still not enough for native 4k at good IQ with 60 FPS in some games.

Of course, this is at least a much more genuine statement than had he chosen a lower number.

It's important to place the translated comment into the context in which the question was answered. Was he not there speaking of PlayStation 4 games on iterated PlayStation hardware (ps4 pro)? Someone like Cerny isn't going to go shooting his mouth off with half-arsed arbitrary nonsense PR.

As for Cerny, if he is out here claiming that 8TF is a good baseline for native 4K quality visuals, than I assume he is referencing PS4 quality (1.84 TF) performance.

Of course he is. But people just saw the quote and jumped to their own conclusions about what they think he said and why.

So he's either chief techy bod on ps4/vita/pro telling it like it is within the context of, you know, the hardware he was sat down to talk about, or he's just some filthy PR mouthpiece doing a Greenburg/Penello number on any unsuspecting soul unfortunate enough to read his words.

 

[jaypah]

consoles are like the bloke who is learning to play guitar, but refuses to learn anything on his level. when he should have been learning wonderwall he was trying to learn hotel california and it always sounded like shit because he wasn't ready yet, now he's about at the level to play stairway to heaven but is trying to scrape his way through malmsteen arpgeggios.

admirable in a way, but nobody wants to listen to it.

Lmao, still got it. Your posts became a lot more funny when I added a PC to my setup.

 

[Omnistalgic]

consoles are like the bloke who is learning to play guitar, but refuses to learn anything on his level. when he should have been learning wonderwall he was trying to learn hotel california and it always sounded like shit because he wasn't ready yet, now he's about at the level to play stairway to heaven but is trying to scrape his way through malmsteen arpgeggios.

admirable in a way, but nobody wants to listen to it.

Please teach me how to play guitar though...been struggling ;-(

 

[staticneuron]

Depends on the game. Scorpio definitely won't have native 4k for every game out there, but based on the power differential it will have a lot more than the PS4 Pro will, and when doing reconstruction will be doing it from a higher initial resolution.

I feel like the 4k push is a bit of a waste for both systems tbh. Then again we wouldn't have these systems if not for it.

But wouldn't the push happening now be a benefit to the next gen of consoles hardware wise?

 

[novabolt]

Thanks for the laugh.

Spoiler

Seriously though what are you on about

I think the poster was trying to say that console manufacturers should aim for things that are easily achievable and that isn't out beyond their reach.

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

Now that I think about it, It's somewhat funny to see both MS and Sony saying you need roughly 4.5x the power for 4K.

XB1 1.3/1.4TF -> Scorpio 6TF
PS4 1.8TF -> (Possible future version) 8TF?

Both seem to talk about their current console games running in 4K on new hardware.

8TF when though? 2018? People already hate that the PS4P is coming out three years after the original PS4, another more powerful PS4 coming out just two years later would just piss a lot of people off and besides in two years, barring a major efficiency improvement, 8TF on AMD hardware isn't going to be a big deal just like 6TF of the same won't be when Scorpio launches next year or well already isn't since the 480 can hit that with an over clock. In 2019 an 8TF AMD GPU would be worse than what you could find in a $150 video card at retail.

 

[GinoFelino]

I think the poster was trying to say that console manufacturers should aim for things that are easily achievable and that isn't out beyond their reach.

Oh I got it, but

consoles are like the bloke who is learning to play guitar, but refuses to learn anything on his level

sounds like the very worst of 'PC Master Race' tendencies.

 

[Sony]

My point still stands. Microsoft's clarification and Scorpio's reveal video were two completely different things. In that video- they went out of their way to establish "True 4K" gaming and the "highest quality pixels". It led to a lot of hysterical expectations and people in general with absolutely zero context on just how radically powerful of a APU you'd need to establish native 4K visuals in "the highest quality" possible.


As for Cerny, if he is out here claiming that 8TF is a good baseline for native 4K quality visuals, than I assume he is referencing PS4 quality (1.84 TF) performance.

No, your point doesn't stand. True 4K gaming = native 4k gaming. There is no truer 4k than native 4k (unless you supersample it from a higher rez, but that's semantics). Highest quality pixels refers to 1:1 mapping of a framebuffer to pixels, aka 4k native. In your second to last sentence, you say:

"It led to a lot of hysterical expectations and people in general with absolutely zero context on just how radically powerful of a APU you'd need to establish native 4K visuals in "the highest quality" possible. "

If Microsoft indeed said that Scorpio could deliver the highest quality graphics in 4K, they you would have had a point. But they didn't. Sure, after Microsofts reveal there were discussion on the visual fidelity Scorpio could deliver with their 6TF machine in 4K, but it wasn't a direct reaction to what microsoft said. You put in quotes "the highest quality", why delibarately leave out the context? Microsoft said the highest quality pixels, the context is the pixels, which is a refrence to it being a 4K native machine. Is it marketing mumbo-jumbo? Sure, they could have easily said 4K native, but at a stage like E3 there's bound to be some synoniems to market something. They didn't say that Scorpio could push 4K with the highest quality graphics, because that would be impossible with 6TF. The only confusion is the confusion you fabricate.

 

[Xander Crews]

Sounds like a lot of people are "native 4k or bust", even though the Pro seems to be a good mid-stream upgrade.

 

[daveo42]

8TF is probably the minimum if you want to push a AAA game at 4k30, otherwise there will be limitations or rendering techniques to maintain a stable framerate. Like checkerboarding and resolution scaling. Less intensive games should be able to hit 4k30 or even 4k60 on less capable hardware. Sony already showing that with TLoU Remastered and a handful of indie titles.

 

[iceatcs]

I would like to see upgrade every 2/3 years.

Like iPhone but not that annually.


PS4
PS4 Pro
PS5
PS5 Pro etc..

 

[GinoFelino]

No, your point doesn't stand. True 4K gaming = native 4k gaming. There is no truer 4k than native 4k (unless you supersample it from a higher rez, but that's semantics). Highest quality pixels refers to 1:1 mapping of a framebuffer to pixels, aka 4k native. In your second to last sentence, you say:

"It led to a lot of hysterical expectations and people in general with absolutely zero context on just how radically powerful of a APU you'd need to establish native 4K visuals in "the highest quality" possible. "

Sure, after Microsofts reveal there were discussion on the visual fidelity Scorpio could deliver with their 6TF machine in 4K, but it wasn't a direct reaction to what microsoft said. You put in quotes "the highest quality", why delibarately leave out the context? Microsoft said the highest quality pixels, the context is the pixels, which is a refrence to it being a 4K native machine. Is it marketing mumbo-jumbo? Sure, they could have easily said 4K native, but at a stage like E3 there's bound to be some synoniems to market something. They didn't say that Scorpio could push 4K with the highest quality graphics, because that would be impossible with 6TF. The only confusion is the confusion you fabricate.

And yet many third-party releases will likely not be in native 4K. So there's that, too. They dug a hole for themselves with this True 4K shit.

Spoiler

Don't quote 'first-party will be native' shit at me, that's why I said third party

 

[CyberPunked]

This pretty much means nothing. If 8TF is required now, then I'll be double that in a few years when game visuals improve. The chase for 4K will never be achieved, there will always be a distance that consoles will lag behind.

 

[Sony]

I would like to see upgrade every 2/3 years.

Like iPhone but not that annually.


PS4
PS4 Pro
PS5
PS5 Pro etc..

That would be pointless to be honest:

- Usually, late gen games don't look radically different from early new gen games. Why upgrade?
- The dev cycles would be horrible, possibly developing for 4 SKU's...

 

[mangochutney]

This pretty much means nothing. If 8TF is required now, then I'll be double that in a few years when game visuals improve. The chase for 4K will never be achieved, there will always be a distance that consoles will lag behind.

I would think a man of Cerny's intelligence would be factoring this in.

Anyway, how many TFs would I need if I compress my pixels?

 

[novabolt]

Oh I got it, but


sounds like the very worst of 'PC Master Race' tendencies.

Oh, sorry dude.

 

[th4tguy]

DF is still gonna be there to roast games that dip below 99k fps tho

Anyone who can't tell sub 100k fps is either a liar or blind.

 

[novabolt]

But guys, MS said that Scorpio is the only console to offer highest pixelz! HIGHEST PIXELZ!!!!

 

[GinoFelino]

Oh, sorry dude.

No apologies necessary! You were just being helpful.

 

[onQ123]

Because few if any developers are going to go through the hassle of making use of FP16 in 2016.

That's not what I'm talking about I'm talking about when I said that Sony would need a 8TF console if they wanted to brute force 4K for PS4 games in the same way that Scorpio should be able to get Xbox One games to 4K. (I'm not talking about one game)

 

[BillyJack]

4K 30fps is doable on a RX480 in a lot of games if you turn some of the settings down to console-ish parameters.

Why would anyone want to do that?

 

[iceatcs]

That would be pointless to be honest:

- Usually, late gen games don't look radically different from early new gen games. Why upgrade?
- The dev cycles would be horrible, possibly developing for 4 SKU's...

I understand if only all of the games are AAA budget.

 

[CyberPunked]

I would think a man of Cerny's intelligence would be factoring this in.

Anyway, how many TFs would I need if I compress my pixels?

Satire? So 8TF will be all that's required for any future games?

 

[panda-zebra]

I think the poster was trying to say that console manufacturers should aim for things that are easily achievable and that isn't out beyond their reach.

Which, if you read the words of Cerny himself regarding ps4 and ps4 pro, you'll see is just some master race lolconsole bullshit.

When we design hardware, we start with the goals we want to achieve. Power in and of itself is not a goal. The question is, what that power makes possible.

The companies make the boxes as they see fit.

It's the devs and publishers who are more suited to his guitar-learning analogy as they are the ones always striving too far and compromising their product for more shiny.

But, you know, us console peasants eat that shit up anyway, so the jokes on us, right?

 

[rtcn63]

So now we know who was was behind the Hello Games tweet.

 

[Zojirushi]

Judging by 4K performance on PC that sounds about right.

 

[th4tguy]

That would be pointless to be honest:

- Usually, late gen games don't look radically different from early new gen games. Why upgrade?
- The dev cycles would be horrible, possibly developing for 4 SKU's...

Devs don't have those issues with Iphone. Most devs just chose to support the last 3 models at most.
Also, you are right about most launch games looking not much better than late release past gen games. That is kind of the point. Most PS4 pro games are just better running/ cleaner looking versions of the regular version. If this model takes hold, PS4pro will become the base model and PS5 will be better running/ cleaner versions of PS4 pro games. You wouldn't be able to play PS5/pro games on base PS4 anymore, but you could still continue to play PS4 games on PS5 and pro.

I honestly have a hard time seeing how anyone can argue how this model isn't valid when we have a working market for it already in cell phones and to a greater extent PC.

 

[Sony]

And yet many third-party releases will likely not be in native 4K. So there's that, too. They dug a hole for themselves with this True 4K shit.

Spoiler

Don't quote 'first-party will be native' shit at me, that's why I said third party

That's not related to what Microsoft said. Microsoft said that Scorpio is designed to present Xbox One quality graphics in 4K. That's related to the power of the machine. So, if you want to natively render current third party games in 4K, Scorpio has you covered. You can always choose to decrease the resolution to increase effects, even on a 12,16,18 or more TF machine. Point is, Scorpio can render current third party games natively in 4K, if you're a third party. Also, why did they dig a hole? They also said that there would be no Scorpio exclusives, aside from VR games. Thus, if a party wishes to develop for the Scorpio, they have to develop for Xbox One. Once they have developed the game for Xbox One, you're assured that Scropio can run that game in 4K because, like clockwork, it has the power to run Xbox One games natively in 4K. It all makes so much sense.

 

[adamsapple]

I guess that native for 4K is for high profile AAA games, because there's already a few games we know that are rendering at native 4K on the PS4 Pro.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

And yet many third-party releases will likely not be in native 4K. So there's that, too. They dug a hole for themselves with this True 4K shit.

Spoiler

Don't quote 'first-party will be native' shit at me, that's why I said third party

What 3rd party games wont be 4K on Scorpio?

 

[iceatcs]

What 3rd party games wont be 4K on Scorpio?

I could see most 60fps games won't be native.

 

[Kaako]

Judging by native 4K performance of most PC AAA titles, that seems about right and even on the lower scale for native 4K "across the board."

 

[EGM1966]

hmm, interesting that the guy who designed the ps4 pro thinks that the minimum for native 4k is above what scorpio can offer!

Most people with a decent PC or supporting 4K think the same. Scorpio's rumoured specs are arguably too low for consistent 4K with eye candy AAA titles.

It might fare better with clever engineering but it is below what PC would indicate.

He's also making it clear Pro ain't nonnative 4K machine too so I doubt there's any big spin here. He's pretty much stating facts.

 

[jobrro]

You're confusing things. FP16 is a HDR rendering target. It's not suddenly taking single precision floating point math units and doubling their workload. That's not how that stuff works at ALL.

Also, going to 64-bit CPUs didn't double 32-bit processing.

My understanding is FP16 means half precision rendering. What does this have to do specifically with HDR?

I read the PS4 Pro and other modern AMD GPUs can process two instructions simultaneously at FP16 doubling output for some workloads.

 

[onQ123]

Isn’t that the same thing? Brute forcing it is what PC can do, Pro gets to 4K with software tricks. So ins’t he saying 8TF would be the minimum to get there without tricks?

The PS4 & Xbox One are already cutting corners to begin with so by brute force I mean to just take what they are already doing on these consoles & just use 4X the power to get 4X the resolution & having room to do this with the full range of PS4 games.

 

[Sony]

I honestly have a hard time seeing how anyone can argue how this model isn't valid when we have a working market for it already in cell phones and to a greater extent PC.

They are a completely different market. There revenue model for apps is either ads, or selling the app for a price (or both). If you look at your apps across the different phones you've had, they're usually the same apps, you use them on every new phone of yours. They have an added value to your productivity or daily life. If those apps are ad supported, then their revenue model is perpetual. If they are purchase price supported, then you buy it and own it. In that case, your app needs to support the lowest common denominator. The code for an app on iPhone 4 isn't much different that the code for an iPhone 7 (aside from features like touch ID), thus those apps can never fully benefit from the potential of iPhone 7. If you go toward your porposed model, the consoles game will not be optimized for their platforms, but the newer platforms will brute force better framerates and resolutions. That's inefficient. Aside from that, what would the earning model be for a console game then? Console games are not like apps in how long they last. Like I said, when you finish games, you're quite often done with them. With apps, you carry them over from one phone to the next because you need them and use them.

 

[Final Verdict]

In my opinion, he is probably right if you are talking about making all games run in 4k, but 4tf is clearly enough to get some games to run in 4k, and 6tf should be enough to get quite a few to run natively, or very close to it.

 

[Kayant]

I thought he said PS4 Pro was 8.4 Tflops...

Yup. Didn't Greenberg get a 'flaked' reputation for saying stuff like this?

Context be damned I guess...

I think saying that any amount of FLOPs is enough for 4k gaming is off, and even specifying a single minimum is wrong.

On the one hand, there are absolutely games which can run natively at 4k with less than 8 TF.

On the other hand, my GPU runs at 10.2 TF and it's still not enough for native 4k at good IQ with 60 FPS in some games.

Of course, this is at least a much more genuine statement than had he chosen a lower number.

There is no minimum.

Whew! Some reason in this crazy thread.

What 3rd party games wont be 4K on Scorpio?

Just wait and see there is no mandate on native 4K + MS themselves have only confirmed Native 4K first party titles at launch.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I feel like there is so much controversy over a fairly innocuous statement. He's not shitting on Pro, the Pro can do 4K gaming as we've seen. His statements are about a very general 4K guarantee with current higher detail presets that are not compromised.

And he's not shitting on Scorpio either, he's not Andrew House as a PR guy.


He's giving a baseline for what he feels is the minimum amount of general GPU metrics to achieve 4K on a consistent basis at a level where its as common as 1080p today.

What 3rd party games wont be 4K on Scorpio?

THe ones devs feel aren't worth the 4K boost over graphical or FPS fidelity, like PS4 Pro right now. Considering how many games already render at 1800p on Pro, you could make the argument that using the PC version, and dialing all settings down to low(as opposed to the high or medium console level presets Pro runs now), and running at 30fps would provide a 4K experience.

But is that how developers want to reach 4K?

I'd rather know, when Sony tries making fun games again.

Grav rush 2 is releasing in January.

Okami on PS3 was effectively being downsampled from 4k iirc.

Nah. 1080p at 4xMSAA.

 

[Omnistalgic]

The PS4 & Xbox One are already cutting corners to begin with so by brute force I mean to just take what they are already doing on these consoles & just use 4X the power to get 4X the resolution & having room to do this with the full range of PS4 games.

gotcha...

 

[Omnistalgic]

I think saying that any amount of FLOPs is enough for 4k gaming is off, and even specifying a single minimum is wrong.

On the one hand, there are absolutely games which can run natively at 4k with less than 8 TF.

On the other hand, my GPU runs at 10.2 TF and it's still not enough for native 4k at good IQ with 60 FPS in some games.

Of course, this is at least a much more genuine statement than had he chosen a lower number.

obviosuly he's talking about AAA PS4 games. He knows there are already native 4K games on Pro hardware. I don't think there's anything wrong with the statement.

By your logic, no power will ever be enough because there is no ceiling on graphical effects.

 

[deathcab]

Scorpio does not exist. I doubt it will. Fracture the fanbase makes no sense. Microsoft can't build a PC, I'd rather have cancer than windows.

 

[Unknown?]

Eh wouldn't this . more or less put more spotlight on Scorpio since they seem to boast the true 4k experience

Scorpio will have native 4K games but not all of them. Maybe first party games will but 3rd party won't all be not on brand new highly taxing games.

 

[KageMaru]

Honestly, does anyone here actually believe that the average person gives a damn whether something is "really" 4k native or simply a close approximation?

The important thing is just that users get a sharper, cleaner, and more colorful image, hitting metrics is less significant than a perceptual difference in quality.

I think the average person cares whether something is native 4K as much as they care if a game was native 1080p. That never stopped us from caring here at GAF.

 

[GinoFelino]

Scorpio does not exist. I doubt it will. Fracture the fanbase makes no sense. Microsoft can't build a PC, I'd rather have cancer than windows.