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[thelastword]

I disagree, if you're willing to shell out the money for the latest hardware, then you deserve the best possible performance. If you can play the game on the old hardware then you're not being left behind, you're just not getting the best version.

Should auto makers never redesign and improve their cars for fear of customers who purchased the previous years model not getting the best performance?

My debate is not even that it should not be 60fps...Hell I'm one of the proponents of "it should be 60fps", my issue is the reason it's not 60fps is not because of the hardware but because the console manufacturer does not want to divide it's fanbase....Would you be good if you could only play PRO players in MP? Would that be good for the ecosystem? would that be a good decision from Sony? I don't think so, the only way they could keep everybody plugged in is to give PRO owners a graphical lift but maintain the same framerate in the eco-system....Cue Uncharted 4 MP, 900p/60fps vs 1080p 60fps, graphics and resolution can be worse on vanilla, but framerate in MP has to match...It makes sense in the PS4 eco-system...As I said, you cannot compare PC, because that's a whole other kettle of fish...

There was no forced parity on Destiny 1. The game used to run at 900p on xbone and got in the last minute updated to 1080p.

The game was just not very demanding visually and the sequel still doesn't like it is.

The game launched at 1080p if I remember clearly, it's 30fps with the same graphical settings on PS4. PS4 does not have better AF or even AA as a minimum, farless for any extra graphical bells and whistles, they're both 30fps, this means that there was lots of untapped power for the game on the PS4. I hope you're not waiting for Bungie to come out and declare it like Ubisoft did, but Destiny 1 was as parity as you could get on the consoles...

Man, Destiny's multiplayer is P2P it isn't even seriously competitive if they wanted that it would be on dedicated servers. You wanna talk about fair is it fair that I should lose in a crucible match with a wired gigabit network on a 300Mbps line against some kid on McDonald's wifi or a potato for a connection hell no so 30 vs 60 in Destiny PVP is the least of my concern.

First off, we're talking about multiplayer and so you mixed and matched...because some SP are 60 on the PRO and 30 on the Vanilla PS4 has no bearing on the discussion here... We're talking MP here, and Sony has a clause that prohibits 60fps vs 30fps divides in the PS4 ecosystem, you may disagree, but it does make sense. Sony has no control over what controller you buy or what connection you have, but where they do have control is where they can exercise it, with games on their platform and on their network. You may think only of yourself "wanting 60fps", but they don't want to upset 50 million plus vanilla users spamming their forum that they're at a disadvantage against pro players.....


Also, fyi, having a Gigabit connection does not ensure a better experience in any game online...Do you really believe that Destiny is going to be using the full gamut of a gigabit connection.....? So if destiny is fine with 1MBPS on upload, you think having 1Gigabit will give you an advantage....? Do a little research on the upload speed required for most games online, gigabit internet does zilch to improve the experience.

 

[Toparaman]

PS4 Pro plays games at 60 that don't on regular PS4

We talking going from locked 30 on standard to locked 60 on Pro? Maybe I missed it, but I can't think of a single game that has done that.

 

[HeelPower]

COD gets a lot of shit ,but at least they're near flawless technically and deliver on the visuals.

Idk why these guys can't.

 

[Hux1ey]

COD gets a lot of shit ,but at least they're near flawless technically and deliver on the visuals.

Idk why these guys can't.

That id Tech 3 doing work.

 

[op_ivy]

I'm not sure I'd go that far.

Using only officially released promotional screenshots for both games...

Destiny 2:



Halo 5:

I hope I'm not the only that pointed out how fucking absurd it is you took screenshots of 4v4 d2 vs 12v12 + enemy ai warzone (or 8 v a shit ton more ai in warzine firefight) halo 5.

I'm not arguing 2015 60fps halo5 looks better than 30 fps 2017 d2, but come on...

 

[renzolama]

COD gets a lot of shit ,but at least they're near flawless technically and deliver on the visuals.

Idk why these guys can't.

If only there was a thread with links to information explaining the technical limitations

 

[MrBenchmark]

Also, fyi, having a Gigabit connection does not ensure a better experience in any game online...Do you really believe that Destiny is going to be using the full gamut of a gigabit connection.....? So if destiny is fine with 1MBPS on upload, you think having 1Gigabit will give you an advantage....? Do a little research on the upload speed required for most games online, gigabit internet does zilch to improve the experience.

Well guess that was misinterpreted. I am fully aware that having all that doesn't give me any advantage. My point is that with it being p2p that if that doesn't mater I really don't think 30 vs 60 would make a difference or even really matters when your still dealing with that same p2p bs issues. Fact is it ain't gonna be 60 on any console there engine isn't set up for that to be on console they've said that. I honestly don't even care. Destiny 1 being 30fps hasn't stopped me from play the many thousands of hours I have across 360,PS3,Xbox one and PS4 the latter two I still play on every day since launch. I personally think the people having the biggest fits about this stuff won't even play that long I've been deeply invested in destiny across the board spent more money on this game than any other before. I'm still playing D2 anyway.

 

[Negotiator]

Well guess that was misinterpreted. I am fully aware that having all that doesn't give me any advantage. My point is that with it being p2p that if that doesn't mater I really don't think 30 vs 60 would make a difference or even really matters when your still dealing with that same p2p bs issues. Fact is it ain't gonna be 60 on any console there engine isn't set up for that to be on console they've said that. I honestly don't even care. Destiny 1 being 30fps hasn't stopped me from play the many thousands of hours I have across 360,PS3,Xbox one and PS4 the latter two I still play on every day since launch. I personally think the people having the biggest fits about this stuff won't even play that long I've been deeply invested in destiny across the board spent more money on this game than any other before. I'm still playing D2 anyway.

Google: tick rate.

That's the deciding factor in a PvP game.

p2p @ 30 Hz tick rate >>>> dedicated server @ 10 Hz tick rate

 

[JetBlackPanda]

Cross post from Destiny OT.

Do you guys think the Scorpio version will be 60fps? Seems weird that' bungie isn't talking about it. While giving the pro a hard no.]

 

[Hux1ey]

Cross post from Destiny OT.

No.

 

[MrBenchmark]

Google: tick rate.

That's the deciding factor in a PvP game.

p2p @ 30 Hz tick rate >>>> dedicated server @ 10 Hz tick rate

I understand this and if D2 has a better tick rate awesome but D1 tick is 10 and then throw in people with connection "issues" and it can be a nightmare.

 

[Costia]

Cross post from Destiny OT.

Extremely unlikely.
The scorpio cpu is less than 10% faster than the ps4 pro's.
Its unlikely that the ps4 pro is only missing 10% to get to 60fps.

Edit:
My guess would be:
XB1: dynamic res@30
PS4: 1080@30
PS4pro: 4k checkerboard@30
scorpio 4k native@30

 

[The Baron Count]

I wonder if we will ever have a generation of consoles where gamers actually give enough of a shit about the technology that drives their games to do research instead of just ignorantly saying "x game is 60FPS so this should be too".

If you have even the slightest understanding of how a game engine works then you should understand how unbelievably stupid that statement is. Every engine is entirely different and Destiny's engine is sure as heck built for much different priorities than the games that keep getting mentioned. All this hand waving being done by people that have no idea how CPUs work is appalling.

People that actually program games for a living must want to tear their hair out reading this non-sense.

 

[N7.Angel]

ah ah ah, IGN ladies and Gentlemen:

 

[JetBlackPanda]

ah ah ah, IGN ladies and Gentlemen:

This is why I get my news from a forum of enthusiast at gaf.

WTF ign.

 

[-hadouken]

My guess would be:
XB1: dynamic res@30
PS4: 1080@30
PS4pro: 4k checkerboard@30
scorpio 4k native@30

Agree with these guesses except for the X1. As with D1, D2 looks undemanding enough to hit native 1080 in my view. Especially with the time they've had to tweak the engine and learn the hardware.

 

[OdysseusVA]

ah ah ah, IGN ladies and Gentlemen:

I believe them

 

[jett]

ah ah ah, IGN ladies and Gentlemen:

 

[LordOfChaos]

Sounds about as expected.

Remember when people were saying better CPUs wouldn't help with 60fps because "it was a design choice"? Hah. It partly is, but weak CPUs of course sometimes force one choice for other sacrifices that would have to be made.

 

[Tecnniqe]

ah ah ah, IGN ladies and Gentlemen:

IGN: Sony paid to hold other versions back due to sacks of money they threw at Acti/Bungo

So PC delay eh? 😂👌

 

[Matt]

If the problem is the CPU, and the Pro can't hit 60, then the Scorpio can't either. The chance of that small a performance improvement making all the difference is tiny.

I'm sure the Scorpio version will quite a looker though.

 

[Paragon]

Extremely unlikely.
The scorpio cpu is less than 10% faster than the ps4 pro's.
Its unlikely that the ps4 pro is only missing 10% to get to 60fps.

As I posted in the other topic: if we assume that the base PS4 can run the game at 30 FPS, Scorpio's CPU is ~45% faster than that.
That's probably still not enough to run at 60 FPS.
However unlike the other three consoles, Scorpio supports variable refresh rate displays. (FreeSync/HDMI 2.1 VRR)

VRR displays mean that you're no longer required to lock to 30 or 60 FPS for smooth gameplay.
So Scorpio can run the game smoothly at an unlocked framerate on these displays rather than having to cap it at 30 FPS.
Unlocked, it can probably hold an average of at least 45 FPS.

 

[-hadouken]

VRR displays mean that you're no longer required to lock to 30 or 60 FPS for smooth gameplay.
So Scorpio can run the game smoothly at an unlocked framerate on these displays rather than having to cap it at 30 FPS.

Fine in theory - but just not the way Bungie has done things with Destiny. They target parity, they don't want to piss off the larger of the fanbases and users of the original consoles. They also want to avoid (dubious) accusations of "unfairness" and to ensure that their marketing partner gets value for money.

As I said on the previous page - anyone holding out hope of D2 showing off the scope of the Scorpio is going to be sorely disappointed.

 

[KageMaru]

If the problem is the CPU, and the Pro can't hit 60, then the Scorpio can't either. The chance of that small a performance improvement making all the difference is tiny.

I'm sure the Scorpio version will quite a looker though.

This. Both Ryan and Jez are flat out wrong that Destiny 2 will be 30fps because of any goals of parity.

WTF happened in this thread anyways? Since when has MS said anything about FPS parity or why spin it if a game has faster frame rates on Scorpio then XBO owners are left behind? It was clear the "no one will be left behind" line was aimed at Scorpio not receiving any exclusive games or modes outside of VR. IF you care about having the fastest framerates and best graphics in an xbox game, you will get a scorpio. Otherwise you're just bitching for the sake of bitching or trolling.

Based on MS allowing competitive MP between PC and XBO players, where the PC can run at 100+fps, it's no surprise that they don't have a parity rule for framerates.

 

[SMOK3Y]

I am satisfied with his explanation. Destiny controlled exceptionally well for a 30fps FPS title.

Definitely... all i want to know is if it has SuperSampling for 1080p

 

[cripterion]

Damn came here for "i don't have time to explain why i don't have time to explain" jokes, disappointed.

 

[Horp]

BS.
Just think about the amount of stuff happening in the largest BF multiplayer games. They have destruction as well. They do so much more with the CPU that this statement seems like a joke.
Spend the time to properly multithread your engine/code, or dont, but dont come with childish excuses like this.

 

[acm2000]

They just made the decision to target 30fps on console that's all, ignore their bullshit excuses.

I'm sure ms will have paid them some cash dollar to make sure 60fps on Scorpio.

 

[gatti-man]

BS.
Just think about the amount of stuff happening in the largest BF multiplayer games. They have destruction as well. They do so much more with the CPU that this statement seems like a joke.
Spend the time to properly multithread your engine/code, or dont, but dont come with childish excuses like this.

Yeah this was my thoughts as well. Just lie to me whatever. It's 30fps because fuck you that's why. Same as no dedicated servers.

 

[KageMaru]

BS.
Just think about the amount of stuff happening in the largest BF multiplayer games. They have destruction as well. They do so much more with the CPU that this statement seems like a joke.
Spend the time to properly multithread your engine/code, or dont, but dont come with childish excuses like this.

They just made the decision to target 30fps on console that's all, ignore their bullshit excuses.

I'm sure ms will have paid them some cash dollar to make sure 60fps on Scorpio.

Yeah this was my thoughts as well. Just lie to me whatever. It's 30fps because fuck you that's why. Same as no dedicated servers.

You guys can't be serious.

 

[Matt]

You guys can't be serious.

It's disconcerting that people can think like this.

 

[Not Spaceghost]

My cynical side is starting to get the feeling that the delay on the pc version is so that all the reviews aren't just focusing on performance lmao.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

We know they chose to go 30fps. Anyone thinking otherwise just doesn't understand that they could sacrifice fidelity to hit 60fps.

On the other hand, I wonder if scorpio is 60 fps and not because of the cpu but because of cloud computing. Probably not but it's a thought.

I'm PC anyway.

 

[Horp]

You guys can't be serious.

Well you obviously dont know how niether CPUs nor development work. It's ok, dont worry.
As someone in the industry, that also works on middleware bungie uses in both D1 and D2, i can tell you that this is a question of priority and engine limitations.

 

[Trace]

Well you obviously dont know how niether CPUs nor development work. It's ok, dont worry.
As someone in the industry, that also works on middleware bungie uses in both D1 and D2, i can tell you that this is a question of priority and engine limitations.

Excuse me, the armchair experts are here to explain to you that because a recent game they played was both 60 fps and a FPS, all games going forward are required to be 60 FPS or the developers are both incompetent and lying about technical limitations.

 

[MrChowderClams]

Having no spare GPU time suggests a GPU bottleneck, which is clearly not the case here according to Bungie devs. If that was the case, they'd just drop the resolution.

Yeah, my best guess is that the CPU has to do a LOT of number crunching because the game is P2P, meaning that your PS4 essentially has to be the server host for all other players in your instance.

Normally, in a dedicated server setup, these kinds of physics calculations for player position, velocity, interactions, etc would be offloaded to the server (or, I guess, offloaded to each client, with the server coordinating everything), but with the recent interview highlighting that this is not the case, I think that it's certainly possible that this aspect of the game results in a CPU bottleneck. It's probably also the reason why the game modes may be limited to 4v4, since computational complexity would scale linearly with the number of players in an instance.

Edit: Scorpio may have the CPU power to deliver better framerates, but I think that's a moot point, as company politics/marketing deals will probably result in all console versions of the game locked to 30fps.

 

[Tecnniqe]

Excuse me, the armchair experts are here to explain to you that because a recent game they played was both 60 fps and a FPS, all games going forward are required to be 60 FPS or the developers are both incompetent and lying about technical limitations.

Sir, I'm an expert on armchairs and these people you refer to are not armchair experts. It's a disgrace to the armchair expert community that you would even consider it. A slap in the face if you like.

 

[Horp]

Excuse me, the armchair experts are here to explain to you that because a recent game they played was both 60 fps and a FPS, all games going forward are required to be 60 FPS or the developers are both incompetent and lying about technical limitations.

You dont have to make your game 60. Lots of games arent 60. But I dont see other devs going around and saying its impossible due to hardware limitations because their scope i greater than other games. And theirs arent, especially in pvp. No 60 fps isnt laziness, its priorities. And thats all fine, but stop saying its the hardware's fault.
And there are lots of people, like me, here on gaf that arent armchair experts, but actual experts that work in the industry.

 

[KageMaru]

Well you obviously dont know how niether CPUs nor development work. It's ok, dont worry.
As someone in the industry, that also works on middleware bungie uses in both D1 and D2, i can tell you that this is a question of priority and engine limitations.

I most certainly understand that this is about priority and I don't understand what's wrong with prioritizing large scale battles with dozens of enemies with good AI, along with the other simulations they mentioned. You're the one who's assuming they could achieve 60fps by just "properly" multi-threading their engine.

Excuse me, the armchair experts are here to explain to you that because a recent game they played was both 60 fps and a FPS, all games going forward are required to be 60 FPS or the developers are both incompetent and lying about technical limitations.

I'm not sure if you're talking about him or us lol.

 

[Cow Mengde]

I guess it just means the game is more cinematic.

 

[Trace]

You dont have to make your game 60. Lots of games arent 60. But I dont see other devs going around and saying its impossible due to hardware limitations because their scope i greater than other games. And theirs arent, especially in pvp. No 60 fps isnt laziness, its priorities. And thats all fine, but stop saying its the hardware's fault.
And there are lots of people, like me, here on gaf that arent armchair experts, but actual experts that work in the industry.

Games are required to be 60 FPS or they aren't games.

Spoiler

(I work in UE4 on a daily basis, my original post was calling out the people in this thread that have no idea what they're talking about )

 

[Horp]

I most certainly understand that this is about priority and I don't understand what's wrong with prioritizing large scale battles with dozens of enemies with good AI, along with the other simulations they mentioned. You're the one who's assuming they could achieve 60fps by just "properly" multi-threading their engine.

And they could. I dont mean prioritizing scale, I mean prioritizing fast iterations and other things over engine improvements. There are many, many more complex games that does much more with the CPU.
There are tons of other games too, that aren't utilizing the CPU efficiently and fully, and they also struggle with performance. Difference? They dont go around claiming its impossible to do better or that their games are more complex than other, obviously more CPU-heavy games that can achieve 60.

 

[JDB]

Man, this thread is a mess.

 

[KageMaru]

And they could. I dont mean prioritizing scale, I mean prioritizing fast iterations and other things over engine improvements. There are many, many more complex games that does much more with the CPU.
There are tons of other games too, that aren't utilizing the CPU efficiently and fully, and they also struggle with performance. Difference? They dont go around claiming its impossible to do better or that their games are more complex than other, obviously more CPU-heavy games that can achieve 60.

I'm sorry but I don't understand how you can claim all of this without working on the game or having access to the code. You mentioned games like BF before when those games generally do a pretty poor job at reaching 60fps on consoles. Maybe a fluctuating ~45fps frame rate isn't what they care to have and much rather offer a consistent experience at 30fps.

In no way am I trying to pretend to know everything or be an armchair developer. However it does seem like you're assuming a lot while only seeing things from your side and not knowing things on theirs.

 

[Green Yoshi]

We talking going from locked 30 on standard to locked 60 on Pro? Maybe I missed it, but I can't think of a single game that has done that.

The Surge.

 

[pelican]

4K native on the Pro, or cb upscaling?

 

[JnFnRu]

Inb4 switch games at 30fps being unacceptable!

 

[Horp]

I'm sorry but I don't understand how you can claim all of this without working on the game or having access to the code. You mentioned games like BF before when those games generally do a pretty poor job at reaching 60fps on consoles. Maybe a fluctuating ~45fps frame rate isn't what they care to have and much rather offer a consistent experience at 30fps.

In no way am I trying to pretend to know everything or be an armchair developer. However it does seem like you're assuming a lot while only seeing things from your side and not knowing things on theirs.

Once again, not fully reaching the results is one thing. Straight up claiming it isnt doable cause your game is more complex than other games (which it isnt, especially not in 4v4 multiplayer on limited arenas, with no npcs and no destruction (which they would obviously have spoken about if they had it, since it would be a major new addition to the game).
And the footage we saw had dips below 30 btw.

 

[KageMaru]

Once again, not fully reaching the results is one thing. Straight up claiming it isnt doable cause your game is more complex than other games (which it isnt, especially not in 4v4 multiplayer on limited arenas, with no npcs and no destruction (which they would obviously have spoken about if they had it, since it would be a major new addition to the game).
And the footage we saw had dips below 30 btw.

While I do see your point with the MP, it seems like they are primarily talking about the co-op modes where their comments hold more weight.

 

[Sniffynose]

Is it the same engine as Destiny? Didn't they say it took days to load assets just to move a rock a few cm or some crap?! Hopefully it's a new engine at very least?