Support NeoGAF

[Isaac Otherworld]

Also this policy is a textbook example og neoliberalism for all those who don't think it exists; public services are only worthwhile if it's actively helping businesses. People are only worthwhile if they're actively helping businesses.

Even if this policy didn't have an obvious problem dependent on the economy's health like the welfare work requirement it is morally abominable.

 

[IrishNinja]

Eh, this should send shivers up the spine of a classical conservative. It's your standard state encroachment.

Nice high school diploma you got there. Would be a shame if it went missing. But don't worry, if you walk down one of these government sanctioned life pathways we'll make sure nothing happens to it.

granted, but i don't think anyone means "classical" when talking about either party, especially these days

 

[BrutishMrFish]

No one here is reading up on the details and what they're promising to do to support and facilitate this, this is another knee-jerk reaction thing.

Including you, unsurprisingly.

In order to be effective, the plan would require dedicated people to work with kids on a daily basis until they could come up with a good path for the students. That's pretty hard to do when schools are strapped for cash and a bunch of teachers and staffers were laid off last year!

What was promised was that training would be given to counselors. And you expect them to do a decent job of performing their new duties without any additional support when they're already drowning in work? If you weren't so busy coming into this thread just so you could go on about how crazy everyone else is being (like you always do), you would have realized that there's a difference between what the government says it can do and what it can actually do.

Helping kids plan for what to do after high school is reasonable. Turning that into another hurdle that punishes kids who already have a hard enough time of making it through the school system is not.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Including you, unsurprisingly.

In order to be effective, the plan would require dedicated people to work with kids on a daily basis until they could come up with a good path for the students. That's pretty hard to do when schools are strapped for cash and a bunch of teachers and staffers were laid off last year!

What was promised was that training would be given to counselors. And you expect them to do a decent job of performing their new duties without any additional support when they're already drowning in work? If you weren't so busy coming into this thread just so you could go on about how crazy everyone else is being (like you always do), you would have realized that there's a difference between what the government says it can do and what it can actually do.

Giving counselors training to help kids plan for what to do after high school is reasonable. Turning that into another hurdle that punishes kids who already have a hard enough time of making it through the school system is not.

Thank you.

 

[Spyder_Monkey]

This is going to make Chicago even worse.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I feel like maybe they didn't think this one all the way through.

 

[Laieon]

You don't want to offer free lunch

Yes I do.

You don't want to help his father get a job with a criminal record for drugs.

Yes I do.

You don't want to bring trade certifications back to high schools.

Yes I do (did they ever leave? I graduated in '09 and my high school offered certifications for auto repair, cosmetology, and I think even some robotics stuff. This was a middle of the road, nothing special school outside of Houston).

You don't want to properly fund "certain" schools.

Yes I do.

You don't want to offer updated quality books for students

Yes I do.



If you're graduating high school without a plan to go to college, without joining the military, without joining a trade, without having a job (I do think this should be changed to include "looking for a job"), and without any semblance of a plan with what you're going to do with your life, then you're apparently not going to be utilizing that diploma anyway.

My college required that everyone participate in an internship to graduate. If you were a 4.0 student and didn't knock out that internship requirement, you didn't walk. I don't see how this is any different.

 

[Principate]

What do they need a diploma for if they have no plan? Just in case? A diploma isn't the end. It's the beginning.

This is nonsense why do you want to prevent them from getting a diploma they have earned? Imagine being prevented a degree because you don't currently have a job after graduation or entering another degree. Some people don't manage to successfully get the job they want before graduation and will continue trying afterwards. Shocking I know.

I did realiss the u.s. education was filled with all sorts of moronic and crazy ideas but come on now. This is horrendous idea on every single level.

 

[Mesousa]

If America wants to help the girl with no father in her life we could start by not locking him up for nonviolent drug offenses because he did a little trappin in the first place. And by funding his school when he was a kid so the cycle doesn't repeat.

This law fucks over black children and for once it'd be nice to have our liberal allies trust us and not rham on this one. We're not stupid. We kinda know the problems we been facing them for a long time. It's systemic and you don't solve them by adding another systemic impediment to a black child's success.

You can offer ALL that support without the stipulation of not getting a diploma. The hell makes people think that a black child doesnt WANT to do something with their lives?! What makes people think that we don't want a job after high school or a trade or a college education?? Who is telling you we need to be prodded with negative stimulation to do what's right? I have a fundamental problem with the inference this policy makes.

The black child wants to learn the same as a white child. They want to do what's right, they want to be somebody.

How does withholding a diploma help us? When the intentional lack of support the intentional lack of economic opportunities and the intentional destruction of the black family in America has been the core of our issues?

And you mean to tell me the solution is the intentional withholding of a high school diploma? No.

We agree on all the core issues.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Yes I do.


Yes I do.


Yes I do (did they ever leave? I graduated in '09 and my high school offered certifications for auto repair, cosmetology, and I think even some robotics stuff. This was a middle of the road, nothing special school outside of Houston).


Yes I do.



Yes I do.



If you're graduating high school without a plan to go to college, without joining the military, without joining a trade, without having a job (I do think this should be changed to include "looking for a job"), and without any semblance of a plan with what you're going to do with your life, then you're apparently not going to be utilizing that diploma anyway.

My college required that everyone participate in an internship to graduate. If you were a 4.0 student and didn't knock out that internship requirement, you didn't walk. I don't see how this is any different.

you don't see how college and public high school are different?

ok

 

[Principate]

Yes I do.


Yes I do.


Yes I do (did they ever leave? I graduated in '09 and my high school offered certifications for auto repair, cosmetology, and I think even some robotics stuff. This was a middle of the road, nothing special school outside of Houston).


Yes I do.



Yes I do.



If you're graduating high school without a plan to go to college, without joining the military, without joining a trade, without having a job (I do think this should be changed to include "looking for a job"), and without any semblance of a plan with what you're going to do with your life, then you're apparently not going to be utilizing that diploma anyway.

My college required that everyone participate in an internship to graduate. If you were a 4.0 student and didn't knock out that internship requirement, you didn't walk. I don't see how this is any different.

The lack of self awareness is astounding here. You chose to go to that college. So you think these kids chose to high school in Chicago?

 

[patapuf]

Yes I do.

If you're graduating high school without a plan to go to college, without joining the military, without joining a trade, without having a job (I do think this should be changed to include "looking for a job"), and without any semblance of a plan with what you're going to do with your life, then you're apparently not going to be utilizing that diploma anyway.

My college required that everyone participate in an internship to graduate. If you were a 4.0 student and didn't knock out that internship requirement, you didn't walk. I don't see how this is any different.

I agree that every student should have a clear plan/path after highschool but i really doubt denying them a diploma is going to help solve the issue of people not finding a job after school.

I'm sure people can come up with a better policy than that.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

You don't withhold a diploma to a black child or any child really but especially a black child in America. Don't we have enough bullshit to deal with? Don't we have enough hoops to jump through. I keep hearing from the benevolent liberal how they want to help yall can start by listening to these communities...

Support. Engage. Assist. You don't deny a diploma to a child that has passed the grades.

.

I hate to argue on the side of this because I don't really trust an already struggling school system to implement this in a perfect fashion...

but you are being very reductionist. The plan isn't just to drop the surprise requirement on them the day before graduation like "YEAH RIGHT SUCKER YOU GOT A JOB READY!?" and the article goes into at least some details on how exactly they plan to support, engage, and assist them on planning for their future. It even includes an example of a school that has successfully implemented a similar program.

I really don't think the doom and gloom scenarios being spelled out here will come to pass. Principals want their schools to have higher graduation rates and could easily lose their position if those numbers decline in a big way. I don't see impoverished students being outright denied their diplomas over a technicality like this.

I do, however, see some more corrupt and morally bankrupt schools (which I am sure there are a number of!) clearing the requirement by all but forcing impoverished students into the armed services as the default choice.

 

[patapuf]

I hate to argue on the side of this because I don't really trust an already struggling school system to implement this in a perfect fashion...

but you are being very reductionist. The plan isn't just to drop the surprise requirement on them the day before graduation like "YEAH RIGHT SUCKER YOU GOT A JOB READY!?" and the article goes into at least some details into how exactly they plan to support, engage, and assist them on planning for their future. It even includes an example of a school that has successfully implemented a similar program.

I really don't think the doom and gloom scenarios being spelled out here will come to pass. Principals want their schools to have higher graduation rates and could easily lose their position if those numbers decline in a big way. I don't see impoverished students being outright denied their diplomas over a technicality like this.

I do, however, see some more corrupt and morally bankrupt schools (which I am sure there are a number of!) clearing the requirement by all but forcing impoverished students into the armed services as the default choice.

I'm sorry but even denying some students a diploma because of a "technicality" is pretty afwul. And chances of low rescources to help are particularily big in places wihtout a lot of funding.

I'm not sure why you need the added "no diploma!" if you truly have a system in place to help students find their path after highschool.

I come from a country where everyone is expected to have a plan for either highschool, an apprenticeship or an inbetween solution by age 16. But they don't fail the kids if they can't find something (some try really hard and can't get a place). There will be constant coaching/parent talks ect. as long as they don't though.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

I'm sorry but even denying some students a diploma because of a "technicality" is pretty afwul. And chances of low rescources to help are particularily big in places wihtout a lot of funding.

I'm not sure why you need the added "no diploma!" if you truly have a system in place to help students find their path after highschool.

As I have said, I do think it will be implemented poorly because of the lack of resources.
Not arguing that point, just pointing out that they are already talking about adding a year long seminar to tackle these issues which is at the very least an attempt to support and engage the students in these matters.

I'm honestly not sure where I stand on making it a requirement for getting a diploma.
I would rather that not be the case, but as someone who has worked in education (albeit in a very different country/culture) I think it's important to realize that there are always going to be motivation problems among students and this will be exacerbated in impoverished districts. Sometimes you have to force them to care about their future.

If you had such a system that was completely optional, what would you do for kids who just said fuck it and didn't utilize the resources at hand? Just let them slip through the cracks? Because that is basically what is happening now in school districts all over the country.

 

[Spoiled Milk]

I like it.

 

[danm999]

Reads like a carrot and a stick approach but whoops there might not be enough carrots to go around.

 

[opticalmace]

Reads like a carrot and a stick approach but whoops there might not be enough carrots to go around.

What's the reward though? Just sounds like a way to beat up people who either have trouble finding work or don't have money.

Or moreover, why force them to have to do anything? What a messy thing. ~_~

 

[Trace]

As someone that had a job during high school, that's total bullshit. I hope everyone in Chicago enjoys the army I guess because that's the only way you're getting that many people to graduate.

 

[danm999]

I think you mean carrot in a stick, right.

Another good way to put it yeah.

What's the reward though? Just sounds like a way to beat up people who either have trouble finding work or don't have money.

Or moreover, why force them to have to do anything? What a messy thing. ~_~

And from what I'm reading of youth unemployment and underfunding of public schools in Chicago it seems like a good way to make a bad situation worse.

Maybe it really is designed just to funnel people into the military.

 

[Breads]

Tbe net result will be less diplomas.

Tf

 

[Two Words]

Imagine a college withholding bachelor degrees unless you manage to secure a job or get accepted to a grad school.

 

[Jonnax]

Seems like it's going to force a lot of people that don't want to, to join the military.

 

[Key2001]

This is something that would had probably caused me to drop out of school.

I put up with a lot of crap (bullied up to the very last day of school and more) as well as personal life issues. I wasn't sure what I was going to do after school, I just know I was ready to get away from it all for awhile.

If I felt that putting up with it all was going to wasted just because I was unsure what I wanted to do right away I probably would had just given up and dropped out.

I am sure there are countless reasons I student may not necessarily be ready to choose what they want to do right after graduating but could use their diploma when they eventually do.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

I took one look at this and thought this is a terrible idea...After reading it, its definitely a terrible idea.

 

[Dead Man]

Free tuition and waiving fees at community college? Very good. Everything else? Shithouse.

 

[patapuf]

As I have said, I do think it will be implemented poorly because of the lack of resources.
Not arguing that point, just pointing out that they are already talking about adding a year long seminar to tackle these issues which is at the very least an attempt to support and engage the students in these matters.

I'm honestly not sure where I stand on making it a requirement for getting a diploma.
I would rather that not be the case, but as someone who has worked in education (albeit in a very different country/culture) I think it's important to realize that there are always going to be motivation problems among students and this will be exacerbated in impoverished districts. Sometimes you have to force them to care about their future.

If you had such a system that was completely optional, what would you do for kids who just said fuck it and didn't utilize the resources at hand? Just let them slip through the cracks? Because that is basically what is happening now in school districts all over the country.

I honestly don't know too many details about how stuff is for people who fall through the cracks.

At least until you are 18 you usually have access to various programs designed to help you. After that it gets tougher and usually you have to deal with social services. They help, but it's not a fun situation.

 

[Prime crotch]

The idea should be to give kids more options not circumscribe them.

 

[AmyS]

Fuck Rahm Emmanuel

This.

Anyway, I'm glad that the relatives I have in the Chicago area that will graduate HS next year live in the suburbs and not the city.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

It's not a terrible idea if they were going to hire staff for every student and make sure there's adequate funding, which they won't, so it's garbage and makes their intentions pretty damn clear.

 

[Yeoman]

It's not a terrible idea if they were going to hire staff for every student and make sure there's adequate funding, which they won't, so it's garbage and makes their intentions pretty damn clear.

What are their intentions?

 

[Mechanized]

This will just lead to a lot of drop outs. Nobody likes being forced to do things.

 

[mrklaw]

Don't some jobs require a high school diploma as a qualification for the role?

 

[Vicetrailia]

This is not the answer, they need to get the support system in place properly. They need to lower dropouts and should work on real facilitation. And to be honest with you I wouldn't have graduated high school for this. I was making more money from drugs, the military wasn't interesting (though I wish I went in hindsight, but back then I didn't know), and college was never on my mind. Actually, I would have faked a retail job and then went on to do what I was doing. My obstacles growing up was a demented family and poor school systems. Attaching a life plan is probably ahead of what they should be doing.

 

[Herr Schwarz]

Kinda dictates life to people structurally through institutions. It's also kind of cynical.

Like we've decided to make schools part of the machine now. What about the arts? What about self determination? Freedom? Pursuit of happiness?

I guess not, welcome to the machine, it starts at 18.

Kinda dystopian.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

I honestly don't know too many details about how stuff is for people who fall through the cracks.

At least until you are 18 you usually have access to various programs designed to help you. After that it gets tougher and usually you have to deal with social services. They help, but it's not a fun situation.

I know its just anecdotal, but my brother was a victim of the shitty school system in Kentucky and despite being an intelligent guy he floated through high school not applying himself and realized too late what that meant for his future. He is one of the lucky ones as he at least has a stable retail job even if its basically a dead end. He hates it and regrets not applying himself in high school but now he has car payments and rent and such so he's kinda stuck where he is.

Most of his HS friends who also slipped through the cracks are currently in rehab or dead from meth addiction. So yeah, I'm glad he at least landed on his feet even if he's not really happy.

Honestly, the only difference between us is the fact that my mother was fairly strict and from a young age instilled good study habits and such into me, as she was a high school drop out herself and didn't want that for me. On the other hand, my brother lived with his dad (I'll just mention we are technically half brothers just so things don't get confusing) and he kind of spoiled my brother and let him underachieve.

So yeah, even if I don't trust an underfunded district to pull this off I honestly don't have that big of a problem with this idea as a concept.
Problem is that this is America and I expect most school districts to just say fuck it and basically funnel most struggling students into
the armed services which is the last goddamn thing the country needs.

 

[M3d10n]

It's basically the same argument as saying cutting food stamps will reduce unemployment because it will "motivate" people into getting a job.

 

[caliph95]

It's basically the same argument as saying cutting food stamps will reduce unemployment because it will "motivate" people into getting a job.

Whats stopping someone who hasn't figure it out yet or i still deciding to get an acceptance letter just for this and then throw it away

 

[whytemyke]

The real question to me is, this is a school district that can't go two years without a teacher strike over funding and a state that hasn't passed a budget in so long that their credit rating is considered junk.

So even if this all is a good idea, and I'm not sure it is, how do they plan on paying for all of this stuff?

 

[steveovig]

Surely, this will just higher the drop-out rate and further continue the tailspin that Chicago is in. Emmanuel needs to go. What will happen when automation starts getting more common and many minimum wage jobs are eliminated?

 

[Air]

This sounds monumentally stupid

 

[SolarPowered]

What the fuck is this

I can't even see this coming from Republicans. Come get your boy, Obama.

Jesus

 

[VariantX]

It's basically the same argument as saying cutting food stamps will reduce unemployment because it will "motivate" people into getting a job.

Which is hilarious in itself because in order to get food stamps in the first place as an able bodied adult with no children, you need to already be working in the first place. Then if you make one cent too much on your check they cut you off, knowing damn well that check alone wont make ends meet.

 

[Coriolanus]

Dudes in this thread willing to give the benefit of the doubt to Rahm fucking Emanuel in 2017, dear gods.

 

[Roland1979]

How is this legal and how are they going to enforce this?

 

[Foffy]

This is the most American thing I have ever seen regarding getting things wrong, emphasizing the least effective response to problems, and really not preparing for the world we're entering.

Holy fucking shit. Expect more of this.

 

[ElfArmy177]

This doesn't really sound that bad. Kids have plenty of time to find work after school and would be great to get them learning a craft before they graduate.

I agree, I'd rather they find jobs rather than sit around at home.

 

[Frozenprince]

Literally for no purpose other than to funnel low income black kids into avenues easy to control them.

Disgusting

 

[BigDug13]

What are their intentions?

To put the financial burden 100% on the parents for their child's success because the state doesn't have the funding or doesn't want to spend the money to properly prepare children themselves. Basically forcing parents' hands with "do whatever you have to do to get your child into a state approved life path or no diploma for your child."

On the surface, I can see how some might think that's not so bad, but when you stack it on top of a laundry list of ways institutionalized racism has hurt black communities and has made their burden for success so much harder than it should be, this just adds another hurdle to someone who's already having to jump over more hurdles than anyone else to succeed. Some of these kids do not have the family support to rely on to succeed. If counselors are not going to be given the tools needed to help these children and instead of trying to teach them how to succeed, they're going to be continually budget-cut to the point where they can't help anyone, the kids who will be hurt the most are the ones with parents that do not have the needed tools to help their children succeed. Working multiple minimum wage jobs to provide for the kid and having never gone to college themselves, lack any knowledge about how to get their kid started on these life paths.

If they don't adequately fund programs that help guide these kids, it's wrong of them to punish those kids by withholding degrees.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Dudes in this thread willing to give the benefit of the doubt to Rahm fucking Emanuel in 2017, dear gods.

Yup