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The current state of discussion

...What???? The people here lately who have perpetually had no receipts are the ones claiming this is now an alt-right bastion. Not the other way around. What active alt-right? Where are they? Asked where this mysterious alt-right domination is manifesting, nobody ever has any answers. What willfully ignorant hatred? Who is doing that here? If you find them, I'll stand side by side with you and condemn them. But I already checked all the closets, under the bed, in the pantry, in Evilore's shower (oops sorry misunderstanding, I'll see myself out) even under the rug, and I haven't found the alt-right bogeymen that a small handful of posters here have been lamenting as of late.

Or maybe...

And this might blow your mind here...

Maybe...

There's more than one group of people who fail to bring receipts, and you and I have encountered different ones. You can very easily go into my post history and see who I've been talking with, what they've been saying, and what exactly happened each time.
 
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Corrik

Member
IsUy242.gif

...What???? The people here lately who have perpetually had no receipts are the ones claiming this is now an alt-right bastion. Not the other way around. What active alt-right? Where are they? Asked where this mysterious alt-right domination is manifesting, nobody ever has any answers. What willfully ignorant hatred? Who is doing that here? If you find them, I'll stand side by side with you and condemn them. But I already checked all the closets, under the bed, in the pantry, in Evilore's shower (oops sorry misunderstanding, I'll see myself out) even under the rug, and I haven't found the alt-right bogeymen that a small handful of posters here have been lamenting as of late.
Farther right on the spectrum than themself is "alt-right" to quite a few on the left. No matter if the person is still on the left also or how far on the right of the spectrum.

It is an interesting thing honestly.
 

Blam

Member
...What???? The people here lately who have perpetually had no receipts are the ones claiming this is now an alt-right bastion. Not the other way around. What active alt-right? Where are they? Asked where this mysterious alt-right domination is manifesting, nobody ever has any answers. What willfully ignorant hatred? Who is doing that here? If you find them, I'll stand side by side with you and condemn them. But I already checked all the closets, under the bed, in the pantry, in Evilore's shower (oops sorry misunderstanding, I'll see myself out) even under the rug, and I haven't found the alt-right bogeymen that a small handful of posters here have been lamenting as of late.

I'd like to say I've seen them, but only thing I've seen more recently is a few more aggressive posters that's about it.
 

camelCase

Member
To autoignition, this place isn't alt right. There are more people who espouse conservative views on some political issues, that doesn't mean this place is crawling with racist sexist Reddit trolls. I don't even know how you could end up thinking that other than being extremely reactionary at seeing opinions you disagree with for the first time, which I admit is all too often my first instinct when reading the other forum.
 
I ignore all the negativity, it only brings you down.

I haven’t posted much yet but I lurk nearly everyday and think this forum is still very valuable for the internet. I can’t wait to see it get well populated again.
 
To autoignition, this place isn't alt right. There are more people who espouse conservative views on some political issues, that doesn't mean this place is crawling with racist sexist Reddit trolls. I don't even know how you could end up thinking that other than being extremely reactionary at seeing opinions you disagree with for the first time, which I admit is all too often my first instinct when reading the other forum.

I didn't say this place was alt-right. I used the words "vocal minority" in the post like four times and went out of my way to say that I think that most people here are reasonable, even if I disagree with their viewpoints. I don't know how much clearer I can be.

This is another fucking issue I have with the discourse in this place, for the record. There's no point in justifying your opinions, because people will pick out one or two buzzwords from your post and assume an argument/agenda based on that, even if that's not what the entirety of your post actually said.
 
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Corrik

Member
I didn't say this place was alt-right. I used the words "vocal minority" in the post like four times and went out of my way to say that I think that most people here are reasonable, even if I disagree with their viewpoints. I don't know how much clearer I can be.

This is another fucking issue I have with the discourse in this place, for the record. There's no point in justifying your opinions, because people will pick out one or two buzzwords from your post and assume an argument/agenda based on that, even if that's not what the entirety of your post actually said.
Welcome to the internet. Lol.

That said, you can't claim someone is alt-right unless you can show us someone spouting that different raced should be killed or professing a want of slavery of races or ethnic cleansing or some other sort of deal.

That is what alt-right is.

That is on YOU to provide.

If you cannot show it, then you are likely mislabeling it and deserve to be called out on it.
 
I ignore all the negativity, it only brings you down.

I haven’t posted much yet but I lurk nearly everyday and think this forum is still very valuable for the internet. I can’t wait to see it get well populated again.

The problem with ignoring negativity is that when there is so much, one has no choice but to perpetually lurk.
 

Corrik

Member
Wh
Ideally, I would like GAF to hold itself to a slightly higher standard than YouTube comments, though.



9ErAOy2.png


Hope that helps.
Why are you purposely ignoring what is being referred to?

I asked you to provide proof. If you see it, it should be easy to show. I have showed you what it is. Now show me where it is happening.

You just picked out part of my post to respond to when complaining about people picking out pieces of comments to go on about.
 

NickFire

Member
The current state of discussion will vastly improve when people learn to accept that you can hold traditional left views on issues as a conservative, and traditionally conservative views on issues as someone who generally leans left. In other words, not everyone who disagrees with you on an issue is a Nazi if you lean left, or Stalin if you lean right, and we are not really forced into one of two tribes

The new mod structure and approach should help greatly. Will take time and consistency though. Change doesn't happen over night.
 
I disagree on 2), because honestly, the Giant Bomb thing seems like making a mountain out of a molehill. If it should be viewed as a negative, it would be as "low-effort posting", like posts that generally contain a short phrase (ie. "lol", "are you kidding me?") that's more things that are used in free flowing mediums like chats or in everyday speech.

When people say "who cares?" in regards to the Giant Bomb topic it is a rhetorical question to convey that it's not a thing that needs discussion and that it tries too hard to make an issue about something that would be better left alone. I'm of the opinion that it's a thread that would be better off fading away, because not covering a game should be viewed as Giant Bomb's loss and not treated as something of some larger importance and starting questioning motives in personal choices.
 
Wh
Why are you purposely ignoring what is being referred to?

I asked you to provide proof. If you see it, it should be easy to show. I have showed you what it is. Now show me where it is happening.

You just picked out part of my post to respond to when complaining about people picking out pieces of comments to go on about.

I'm not purposely ignoring what's being referred to. I'm explaining my statement. I didn't say in the post that was quoted that newGAF is alt-right, and so I provided a definition of vocal minority in order to clarify the fact that I do not believe that the forum as a whole is alt-right or even has alt-right tendencies -- just that there are a select few very vocal members who clearly lean in that direction. It's not a condemnation of the boards itself, though it does make my visits here exhausting.

And I left out the rest of your post because I'm not about to start singling out posters and dragging them by name, because that's tacky as hell.
 
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What’s is alt-right? I thought I knew. Is alt-right anyone who isn’t hella-left? I always felt I was left... but I don’t think I’m hella-left. Does that make me alt-right too?
 

KevinKeene

Banned
9ErAOy2.png


Hope that helps.

It doesn't. You didn't answer at all. I didn't ask for the definition of 'vocal minority'. I asked you to tell who that vocal minority alt-right on NeoGAF is and where we can see widespread examples of that.

When people say "who cares?" in regards to the Giant Bomb topic it is a rhetorical question to convey that it's not a thing that needs discussion and that it tries too hard to make an issue about something that would be better left alone.

I understand that and I find it asinine and insulting. When someone made a thread, obviously it needed discussion for at least that one person. You have no right to tell others what 'needs' to be discussed. Your options are to make an argument, to ignore the thread, or to report it to moderation. That's plenty of reasonable choices. The very need of a discussion, however, ist not your choice - unless you own the forum.
 
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It doesn't. You didn't answer at all. I didn't ask for the definition of 'vocal minorityl. I asked you to tell who that vocal minority alt-right on NeoGAF is and where we can see widespread examples of that.

Quoting myself here:

I'm not about to start singling out posters and dragging them by name, because that's tacky as hell.

Sorry if that doesn't sufficiently satisfy your pedantry, but I stand by it.
 

KevinKeene

Banned
Quoting myself here:



Sorry if that doesn't sufficiently satisfy your pedantry, but I stand by it.

You call the current NeoGAF and its more active users alt-right, then refuse to make the effort to back up your claim, excusing it with tackiness.

Don't expect me to reply to you anymore.
 
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Dr. Claus

Vincit qui se vincit
Or maybe...

And this might blow your mind here...

Maybe...

There's more than one group of people who fail to bring receipts, and you and I have encountered different ones. You can very easily go into my post history and see who I've been talking with, what they've been saying, and what exactly happened each time.

giphy.gif


When you make a claim, it isn't on the other person to provide evidence for your claim. That is on you. When you refuse to show evidence of such a wild claim as yours, one can only take it as the inane babbling of a madman or a troll. There has been plenty of evidence to show that the majority of the site is currently left leaning and the most vocal members are just that: left leaning. To refer to the classic idiot: it is time to "put up or shut up".
 

Corrik

Member
You call the current NeoGAF and its more active users alt-right, then refuse to make the effort to back up your claim, excusing it with tackiness.

Don't expect me to reply to you anymore.
To be fair, he did not say that. He said a vocal minority. That said, he cannot provide even one actual example of it despite it making it so taxing for him.

So, I don't know. Honestly feel he is just saying it to say it. I know I and probably many others would call someone out for being alt-right if shown it.
 
To be fair, Old Gaf had no room for liberals who were pro gun for example. So maybe that is the reason for the belief in now alt-right Gaf?
 
I am amused that people are acting like there wasn't a dramatic ideological shift beyond simply moderate when GAF went from about three topics per day criticizing #45 to zero.

Ok, so perhaps a reduction to one topic per day would have been reasonable, but zero? Over the course of not days, but weeks?

'sus.
 

Papa

Banned
I am amused that people are acting like there wasn't a dramatic ideological shift beyond simply moderate when GAF went from about three topics per day criticizing #45 to zero.

Ok, so perhaps a reduction to one topic per day would have been reasonable, but zero? Over the course of not days, but weeks?

'sus.

Yes, let’s go back to multiple Trump threads per day, each with 20 pages of responses akin to “fuck this guy”.
 

Dr. Claus

Vincit qui se vincit
Yes, let’s go back to multiple Trump threads per day, each with 20 pages of responses akin to “fuck this guy”.

Don't forget the 5-6 threads a day in Gaming complaining about how [Character] is sexist/misogynist or how [Person] is awful for believing in a particular aspect of GamerGate.
 

David___

Banned
I am amused that people are acting like there wasn't a dramatic ideological shift beyond simply moderate when GAF went from about three topics per day criticizing #45 to zero.

Ok, so perhaps a reduction to one topic per day would have been reasonable, but zero? Over the course of not days, but weeks?

'sus.
The forum traded that for a centralized thread that people post in to bitch about Era now, exactly like what people did on other sites to bitch about here
 
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prag16

Banned
Or maybe...

And this might blow your mind here...

Maybe...

There's more than one group of people who fail to bring receipts, and you and I have encountered different ones. You can very easily go into my post history and see who I've been talking with, what they've been saying, and what exactly happened each time.
What kind of non-reply is this.
I am amused that people are acting like there wasn't a dramatic ideological shift beyond simply moderate when GAF went from about three topics per day criticizing #45 to zero.

Ok, so perhaps a reduction to one topic per day would have been reasonable, but zero? Over the course of not days, but weeks?

'sus.
Not going out of our way to shit on Trump enough for your liking == alt-right. Okay.

There are still Trump topics, and most people are negative on Trump still.

Personally it's nice not having these extra few topics per day filled with very little other than one liners:

-Disgusting.
-Orange turd.
-The American Revolution was a mistake.
-Disgusting
-Bigoted fuck.
-Fuck this country.
-Disgusting
 

Corrik

Member
I voted for Trump. I will do it again if Clinton is sent out there again in 2020.

I am a Republican. Go figure. Like almost 50% of voters or something in America voted for Trump.
 
I understand that and I find it asinine and insulting. When someone made a thread, obviously it needed discussion for at least that one person. You have no right to tell others what 'needs' to be discussed. Your options are to make an argument, to ignore the thread, or to report it to moderation. That's plenty of reasonable choices. The very need of a discussion, however, ist not your choice - unless you own the forum.

People are also allowed to disagree with the premises of a thread itself, without resorting to some moderator policing or to not discuss the merits of the subject itself. Saying "Who cares?" is a statement in itself, allowing for a statement regarding the nature of trying to make a minor choice into some big subject for discussion (Thread:"KevinKeene doesn't want to date strong women because he likes them submissive!" Content: "Does he actually mean that or is it as I suspect the patriarchy pressuring him to say he's not interested?! Hmm what do you think?") . In the current era of outrage, done by both sides, I'd say that's a reasonable position to take.

Otherwise we could discuss every minute decision done by any outlet in regards to coverage, suspecting motives and whatnot, when it would be better to make a topical thread, rather than one trying to somehow make Giant Bomb's choice into some big deal.

That's the kind of behavior that's despised about Era, in trying to gang up on people that choose to not support something or who disagree with dogma (which gets more ironic due to Kingdom Come: Deliverance being the subject). Your 1) and 3) were fine, because that's about disruptive behavior to the site itself, deliberately attacking the legitimacy or character of the site. So I feel like your objections in 2) is more about low-effort posting, rather than questioning the merits of a thread.
 

KINGMOKU

Member
Ha. I grimaced a little when I saw his closing line. Because I figured you'd use it to stake out the high ground and justify ignoring the rest of the post. Seems I figured right.
Didn't reply, just read and I knew what was coming. Bait for the final zinger.

Long game indeed.

I do find it both hilarious and disturbing that the perception of some is that GAF is now some alt-right paradise or something.

So I have something to say to those people;

This place is now, very close to actual real life. People have different viewpoints and opinions, and different backgrounds. This makes up the majority of America/World. Very few view the world as filled with nazis, bigots, and hate groups because they dont follow the absolutely toxic extreme left view that anyone who doesn't agree with everything they think, is evil.

Free exchange of ideas. That's how humans beings function, not an eternal dogpile.
 

entremet

Member
I think Old-GAF biggest strength was the activity. Now that's gone and it takes a lot of the winds under its sails.

I've always maintained there are no perfect human communities. It's impossible. But I'm getting bored with Reset. I don't have anything bad to say about the place, but it's basically Old-GAF. I was expecting something more fresh. It's literally a carbon copy, even some old thread titles are reused.

Although I'm not as active here much, it seems more interesting to read of late, especially after the new mods started doing their thing.
 
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Tumle

Member
I voted for Trump. I will do it again if Clinton is sent out there again in 2020.

I am a Republican. Go figure. Like almost 50% of voters or something in America voted for Trump.
Well you really can’t say that 50% of Americans voted for trump, when just about 50% voted..
That I think is the biggest problem with your country..
trump got into office, because so many Americans apparently feel very nonchalant about democratic freedom..
Hopefully everyone who hates trump, got a wake up call and will vote in the next elections:)
 
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Corrik

Member
Well you really can’t say that 50% of Americans voted for trump, when just about 50% voted..
That I think is the biggest problem with your country..
trump got into office, because so many Americans apparently feel very nonchalant about democratic freedom..
Hopefully everyone who hates trump, got a wake up call and will vote in the next elections:)
Well, I mean I specifically said almost 50% of "voters in America" for a reason lol.

Edit: That said, I hate when people say stuff like well if everyone voted then Trump wouldn't be in office. I mean, hell for all we know if everyone voted Trump maybe wins in a landslide.

Shouldn't assume results.
 
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Dr. Claus

Vincit qui se vincit
giphy.gif


When you make a claim, it isn't on the other person to provide evidence for your claim. That is on you. When you refuse to show evidence of such a wild claim as yours, one can only take it as the inane babbling of a madman or a troll. There has been plenty of evidence to show that the majority of the site is currently left leaning and the most vocal members are just that: left leaning. To refer to the classic idiot: it is time to "put up or shut up".

I just realized that I had mistyped my post. I did not mean to type "classic idiot", but "classic idiom". Sorry for any confusion.

Well you really can’t say that 50% of Americans voted for trump, when just about 50% voted..
That I think is the biggest problem with your country..
trump got into office, because so many Americans apparently feel very nonchalant about democratic freedom..
Hopefully everyone who hates trump, got a wake up call and will vote in the next elections:)

I feel the bigger issue is that not everyone *could* vote. I know during election day, I was busy running organic synth reactions from 6 AM until 10 PM every day that week (total of 8 days in a row). Then there were people like my grandfather and grandmother who were stuck in a blizzard, unable to reach the voting booth.

Not every employer allows people the day off to go and vote and not every place as the infrastructure to ensure voting can occur. I feel that election day (both for presidential and midterms) should be a multiple day holiday to allow voting for those interested/able.
 

Tumle

Member
I just realized that I had mistyped my post. I did not mean to type "classic idiot", but "classic idiom". Sorry for any confusion.



I feel the bigger issue is that not everyone *could* vote. I know during election day, I was busy running organic synth reactions from 6 AM until 10 PM every day that week (total of 8 days in a row). Then there were people like my grandfather and grandmother who were stuck in a blizzard, unable to reach the voting booth.

Not every employer allows people the day off to go and vote and not every place as the infrastructure to ensure voting can occur. I feel that election day (both for presidential and midterms) should be a multiple day holiday to allow voting for those interested/able.
I agree or at least make it so that a employer can’t fire you because you did your civic duty..
still the low percentage of voting is a big issue.. and it could be that trump would have won even if it was higher, I have no way of knowing.. wasn’t trying to say that the outcome would have been different..
 
I think the gaming community, and NeoGAF in particular, needs to find a way to calmly evaluate its hierarchy of values.

It's no secret that recent political trends have taken a hold of hobbyist communities, introducing a whole new set of values and belief systems. Political values are highly divisive because people tend to feel very strongly about them. What's making things even worse is the fact that these new values, that have been injected into the bloodstream of the gaming community, claim hegemony by aggressively challenge long established values. Unfortunately many people are woefully unequipped to discuss these values. often resorting to some kind of hyperbole or inductive-reductive reasoning in order to drive their points home.

The problem of hyperbole

Hyperbole is a form of overstatement that seeks to exaggerate the truth in order to augment the potency of the argument. It can be a valid rhetorical tool (e.g. I avoid crowded places like the plague), but when hyperbole is used in the context of people or social groups, it becomes rather aggressive (e.g. this person is a Nazi or this community is a hivemind).

The problem of inductive reasoning

Inductive reasoning is the derivation of universal principles from specific/singular observations and often leads to faulty generalizations. Sharing personal experiences is well and fine, but should at best be considered anecdotal evidence because other people usually make different experiences. I often see this when people are discussing other gaming communities, they usually take 1-2 specific examples in order to make assumptions about the community as a whole. For example: this member of the community said X, this member said Y, therefore said community must be Z. That kind of reasoning often leads to the vilification of whole communities and social groups and is harmful to any sort of healthy debate. It is better to stick to the arguments at hand, rather than making assumptions about the whole group by making them guilty through association.

The problem of reductive reasoning

Reductive reasoning is the practice of oversimplifying a complex problem, idea or situation. People often tend to present an inadequate or simplistic proposition for some idea, and address this reduced version of the subject in order to show how silly and foolish this inadequate or simplistic idea can be. This is often used to label people of the opposition in order to dismiss their claims by construing an ad hominem. For example: This person said Y, therefore said person must be X. This approach is incredibly harmful for any discussion, because you are essentially reducing a complex person to a handful of simplistic comments. In other words, separate the argument from the person. Considering the reputation of NeoGAF, we should be very careful not to fall prey to this kind of reasoning as to prevent harm to people on the outside (i.e. don't start stupid witch-hunts).

The hierarchy of values

When two people debate their values, they oftentimes make the erroneous assumption that their opponent doesn't acknowledge their beliefs at all. In reality, they more often than not, disagree on the importance of said values, that is the position of said value within the hierarchy. Furthermore, different people may share the same values, but disagree on how said values should be enforced or attained. Values don't exist isolated from each other, sometimes they overlap and sometimes they even contradict each other (e.g. should I tell a white lie, or say the truth and risk vexing somebody), in other words they are part of a complex belief structure. It is important to keep that in mind when debating somebody, thus creating mutual understanding.

NeoGAF in practice...

After the recent turmoil, I think that NeoGAF is currently reevaluating its hierarchy of values, at least in the sense that the free exchange of ideas has become much more important relative to other values. This change happened very rapidly and in a radical manner, leading to all sorts of problems:

First of all, the community hasn't had time yet to adapt to the challenges that come with this new freedom. Once mutually accepted speech codes have established a general debating culture, things will settle down.​
Second, it is only normal that this radical shift comes to the dislike of many users who grew used to the old hierarchy of values. Thus leading to the subjective impression that 'NeoGAF is going down the drain' or becoming a bastion for the 'alt-right'. Whether this is true or not comes down to the ability of this community to engage with controversial ideas in a reasoned and responsible manner, and not to heavy-handed moderation.​
Third, while the NeoGAF community is reevaluating its hierarchy of values, it should be made clear that other values are not discarded. So feel free to disagree with each other, but acknowledging the other person's values and understanding where he comes from, contributes greatly to a more healthy discussion. When the value system is changing, clarify the reasons why this is happening and why it's considered necessary. Do this by underlining the strengths and benefits of your own proposed hierarchy, not by shitting on other people's belief systems and values. It is important to explain and make people understand why changes are happening. In that regard I think that EviLore and his team are doing a good job (or at least that seems to be their intention), but it also comes down to the responsibility of every single member.​
That other place...
For obvious reasons, I feel somehow reluctant to talk about this, but I think it's important in the context of this discussion. It is quite evident that the people who left have chosen a wholly different hierarchy of values, revering the representation of identity above all else. They are doing so partially to the detriment of any other values, leading to a whole new set of different problems. There is certainly value in reasoned discussion of these problems because they pertain to the validity of the value hierarchy on NeoGAF. What's not conducive though is when these discussions merely serve to point fingers at other communities or people. Both communities should be aware that there is still significant overlap between their values, but they disagree on how they should be weighted and/or applied.

Considering the quite suffocating atmosphere of this forum in the past, it is only natural that its members have the need to vent their frustrations now that they feel allowed to talk more freely. Although I would advise to kindly follow the above mentioned proposals as to prevent some sort of silly flame war. I don't think the gaming community needs any more of that and most people are getting sick and tired of that.
 
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bigedole

Member
Man, I had a nice and witty two liner ready to zing Autoignition but after reading Strange Headache's post it feels really trite and juvenile. :( Basically what I want to say to Autoignition is, you started off stating that you think the vocal minority here shifted from one extreme to the other, but at least before you got receipts when you asked for them from the previous regime, even if you disagreed with them. You have to understand that from my perspective (and I believe it's fair to say others here too) you're the one coming here making invective statements and refusing to show your receipts when called upon.

No one here wants to be associated with the alt-right. The true alt-right are examples of some of the ugliest people humanity has to offer. If I felt this place was truly catering to such individuals, I would in no way associate myself with this community. I think many posters here would agree with that sentiment too, that is why we react strongly to you and the others who've done the same thing the past few weeks. I am more than willing to engage with you on why you think what you do though, I just need to see your receipts for the vocal alt-right minority you're encountering so I can decide for myself how valid your claim is.
 

Blackie

Member
Posting 'NeoGAF really is a GamerGate shithole now' serves no purpose but to disrupt a given thread (and ignores that GG isn't bad, but that's besides the point).

I don't understand what you mean, Gamersgate WAS bad and came across as something of a manufactured controversy. I was still naive at the time and didn't realize some of the toxic/misogynistic elements in the gamer community until women's twitter/social media accounts started getting attacked, doxxed, etc. for seemingly no good reason besides that they were women who dared speak up about our historically male dominated hobby. Made me sad and was the first sign of dangerous alt right radicalization in the impressionable/confused/sexually frustrated online male youth.

Anyway this is an interesting topic and I really enjoyed SoulUnison's posts. GAF can be just fine, it would help if people complain less and post more fun stuff! There are still great posters and great topics here. Personally I wish I wasn't so chronically shy about posting new threads :(
 

Scopa

The Tribe Has Spoken
Also, as a final, mostly unrelated slightly-petty note, the text around here - as in, literally: the text - is way more informal and casual.
Posters don't seem to care as much about spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc.. It seems like there's been a huge influx of people posting on here the same way they would on, say, Twitter. One or two short sentences, no capitalization, lots more abbreviations and 'net-speak.' There's nothing inherently wrong with that, per se, but it does sort of flavor one's perception of a dialog - it tends to read as flippant, young, or callous.

If you care enough about what you have to say you should have the self and general respect to bother to say it eloquently.
This is complete and utter nonsense.

You know you don’t have an argument when you start taking pot shots at people’s level of intelligence. Which btw, is a tactic I’ve noticed a lot from these long dormant members who have popped up to grace us with their vitriol and derision in the last 3 days.

OldGAF was infested with “net speak” and made up words that I honestly had to Google many times to discover their meaning as they have no basis in the English language.

Not to mention the mountainous amounts of one word useless posts which are practically extinct now, thank God.

Not to mention, hardly any capitalization, punctuation or correct spelling.

It was completely anti-intellectual, lowest common denominator mumbo jumbo crap, that actually Infected the forum as you could literally see the sheep start to mimic eachother as this crap spread.

Your revisionist history is completely transparent.
 
Man, I had a nice and witty two liner ready to zing Autoignition but after reading Strange Headache's post it feels really trite and juvenile. :( Basically what I want to say to Autoignition is, you started off stating that you think the vocal minority here shifted from one extreme to the other, but at least before you got receipts when you asked for them from the previous regime, even if you disagreed with them. You have to understand that from my perspective (and I believe it's fair to say others here too) you're the one coming here making invective statements and refusing to show your receipts when called upon.

No one here wants to be associated with the alt-right. The true alt-right are examples of some of the ugliest people humanity has to offer. If I felt this place was truly catering to such individuals, I would in no way associate myself with this community. I think many posters here would agree with that sentiment too, that is why we react strongly to you and the others who've done the same thing the past few weeks. I am more than willing to engage with you on why you think what you do though, I just need to see your receipts for the vocal alt-right minority you're encountering so I can decide for myself how valid your claim is.

This is the last thing I'm going to say in this thread and then I'm not coming back: The last time I dragged people by name for their post history, I got a mod warning for personal attacks and two of my posts got deleted.

In hindsight, I've also realized that it was an extremely tacky thing for me to do in the first place, which is why I gave that as my initial reason for not delivering (and also being mod warned like that is kind of embarrassing, but yanno). But since that's clearly not good enough for y'all, there's your full disclosure. I know that I can be a loud braying jackass at times, but not insomuch that I'm looking to get my ass permabanned by going against a prior mod warning.

So stop asking me for receipts, because I actually literally cannot provide them if I plan on staying here -- which, for right now, I do.
 
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krazen

Member
Its become a mutated beast where we’ve leapfrogged past true conservative counterviews into dangerous waters. Posting reciepts make no difference because those same posters just change the topic “oh, THIS post, well because of (insert inconsquential sentence to the spirited of the post/things taken out of context, etc).

I knew it went to shit when in a fucking comic book movie thread that one dude came in with a ‘as a black woman i found this (black panther) anti-african american,’ trying to derail the post and i gave him a snarky reply calling him out on the obvious troll tone of the post and he winked at me back with a ‘you know it guurl’ reply or whatevef he said. It took him days to get him banned even tho it was prime shitposting.

Problem is that instead of opening the boards up to different views, its just open to trolling. Post up an article; the news source is biased. Post up facts; ya reading the facts wrong. Etc. There is no truth on gaf OT anymore, right or left. Lets dance on the ashes
 
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Catphish

Member
I think the gaming community, and NeoGAF in particular, needs to find a way to calmly evaluate its hierarchy of values.

It's no secret that recent political trends have taken a hold of hobbyist communities, introducing a whole new set of values and belief systems. Political values are highly divisive because people tend to feel very strongly about them. What's making things even worse is the fact that these new values, that have been injected into the bloodstream of the gaming community, claim hegemony by aggressively challenge long established values. Unfortunately many people are woefully unequipped to discuss these values. often resorting to some kind of hyperbole or inductive-reductive reasoning in order to drive their points home.

The problem of hyperbole

Hyperbole is a form of overstatement that seeks to exaggerate the truth in order to augment the potency of the argument. It can be a valid rhetorical tool (e.g. I avoid crowded places like the plague), but when hyperbole is used in the context of people or social groups, it becomes rather aggressive (e.g. this person is a Nazi or this community is a hivemind).

The problem of inductive reasoning

Inductive reasoning is the derivation of universal principles from specific/singular observations and often leads to faulty generalizations. Sharing personal experiences is well and fine, but should at best be considered anecdotal evidence because other people usually make different experiences. I often see this when people are discussing other gaming communities, they usually take 1-2 specific examples in order to make assumptions about the community as a whole. For example: this member of the community said X, this member said Y, therefore said community must be Z. That kind of reasoning often leads to the vilification of whole communities and social groups and is harmful to any sort of healthy debate. It is better to stick to the arguments at hand, rather than making assumptions about the whole group by making them guilty through association.

The problem of reductive reasoning

Reductive reasoning is the practice of oversimplifying a complex problem, idea or situation. People often tend to present an inadequate or simplistic proposition for some idea, and address this reduced version of the subject in order to show how silly and foolish this inadequate or simplistic idea can be. This is often used to label people of the opposition in order to dismiss their claims by construing an ad hominem. For example: This person said Y, therefore said person must be X. This approach is incredibly harmful for any discussion, because you are essentially reducing a complex person to a handful of simplistic comments. In other words, separate the argument from the person. Considering the reputation of NeoGAF, we should be very careful not to fall prey to this kind of reasoning as to prevent harm to people on the outside (i.e. don't start stupid witch-hunts).

The hierarchy of values

When two people debate their values, they oftentimes make the erroneous assumption that their opponent doesn't acknowledge their beliefs at all. In reality, they more often than not, disagree on the importance of said values, that is the position of said value within the hierarchy. Furthermore, different people may share the same values, but disagree on how said values should be enforced or attained. Values don't exist isolated from each other, sometimes they overlap and sometimes they even contradict each other (e.g. should I tell a white lie, or say the truth and risk vexing somebody), in other words they are part of a complex belief structure. It is important to keep that in mind when debating somebody, thus creating mutual understanding.

NeoGAF in practice...

After the recent turmoil, I think that NeoGAF is currently reevaluating its hierarchy of values, at least in the sense that the free exchange of ideas has become much more important relative to other values. This change happened very rapidly and in a radical manner, leading to all sorts of problems:

First of all, the community hasn't had time yet to adapt to the challenges that come with this new freedom. Once mutually accepted speech codes have established a general debating culture, things will settle down.​
Second, it is only normal that this radical shift comes to the dislike of many users who grew used to the old hierarchy of values. Thus leading to the subjective impression that 'NeoGAF is going down the drain' or becoming a bastion for the 'alt-right'. Whether this is true or not comes down to the ability of this community to engage with controversial ideas in a reasoned and responsible manner, and not to heavy-handed moderation.​
Third, while the NeoGAF community is reevaluating its hierarchy of values, it should be made clear that other values are not discarded. So feel free to disagree with each other, but acknowledging the other person's values and understanding where he comes from, contributes greatly to a more healthy discussion. When the value system is changing, clarify the reasons why this is happening and why it's considered necessary. Do this by underlining the strengths and benefits of your own proposed hierarchy, not by shitting on other people's belief systems and values. It is important to explain and make people understand why changes are happening. In that regard I think that EviLore and his team are doing a good job (or at least that seems to be their intention), but it also comes down to the responsibility of every single member.​
That other place...
For obvious reasons, I feel somehow reluctant to talk about this, but I think it's important in the context of this discussion. It is quite evident that the people who left have chosen a wholly different hierarchy of values, revering the representation of identity above all else. They are doing so partially to the detriment of any other values, leading to a whole new set of different problems. There is certainly value in reasoned discussion of these problems because they pertain to the validity of the value hierarchy on NeoGAF. What's not conducive though is when these discussions merely serve to point fingers at other communities or people. Both communities should be aware that there is still significant overlap between their values, but they disagree on how they should be weighted and/or applied.

Considering the quite suffocating atmosphere of this forum in the past, it is only natural that its members have the need to vent their frustrations now that they feel allowed to talk more freely. Although I would advise to kindly follow the above mentioned proposals as to prevent some sort of silly flame war. I don't think the gaming community needs any more of that and most people are getting sick and tired of that.
Brilliant post. 👏
 

Sàmban

Banned
I think the gaming community, and NeoGAF in particular, needs to find a way to calmly evaluate its hierarchy of values.

It's no secret that recent political trends have taken a hold of hobbyist communities, introducing a whole new set of values and belief systems. Political values are highly divisive because people tend to feel very strongly about them. What's making things even worse is the fact that these new values, that have been injected into the bloodstream of the gaming community, claim hegemony by aggressively challenge long established values. Unfortunately many people are woefully unequipped to discuss these values. often resorting to some kind of hyperbole or inductive-reductive reasoning in order to drive their points home.

The problem of hyperbole

Hyperbole is a form of overstatement that seeks to exaggerate the truth in order to augment the potency of the argument. It can be a valid rhetorical tool (e.g. I avoid crowded places like the plague), but when hyperbole is used in the context of people or social groups, it becomes rather aggressive (e.g. this person is a Nazi or this community is a hivemind).

The problem of inductive reasoning

Inductive reasoning is the derivation of universal principles from specific/singular observations and often leads to faulty generalizations. Sharing personal experiences is well and fine, but should at best be considered anecdotal evidence because other people usually make different experiences. I often see this when people are discussing other gaming communities, they usually take 1-2 specific examples in order to make assumptions about the community as a whole. For example: this member of the community said X, this member said Y, therefore said community must be Z. That kind of reasoning often leads to the vilification of whole communities and social groups and is harmful to any sort of healthy debate. It is better to stick to the arguments at hand, rather than making assumptions about the whole group by making them guilty through association.

The problem of reductive reasoning

Reductive reasoning is the practice of oversimplifying a complex problem, idea or situation. People often tend to present an inadequate or simplistic proposition for some idea, and address this reduced version of the subject in order to show how silly and foolish this inadequate or simplistic idea can be. This is often used to label people of the opposition in order to dismiss their claims by construing an ad hominem. For example: This person said Y, therefore said person must be X. This approach is incredibly harmful for any discussion, because you are essentially reducing a complex person to a handful of simplistic comments. In other words, separate the argument from the person. Considering the reputation of NeoGAF, we should be very careful not to fall prey to this kind of reasoning as to prevent harm to people on the outside (i.e. don't start stupid witch-hunts).

The hierarchy of values

When two people debate their values, they oftentimes make the erroneous assumption that their opponent doesn't acknowledge their beliefs at all. In reality, they more often than not, disagree on the importance of said values, that is the position of said value within the hierarchy. Furthermore, different people may share the same values, but disagree on how said values should be enforced or attained. Values don't exist isolated from each other, sometimes they overlap and sometimes they even contradict each other (e.g. should I tell a white lie, or say the truth and risk vexing somebody), in other words they are part of a complex belief structure. It is important to keep that in mind when debating somebody, thus creating mutual understanding.

NeoGAF in practice...

After the recent turmoil, I think that NeoGAF is currently reevaluating its hierarchy of values, at least in the sense that the free exchange of ideas has become much more important relative to other values. This change happened very rapidly and in a radical manner, leading to all sorts of problems:

First of all, the community hasn't had time yet to adapt to the challenges that come with this new freedom. Once mutually accepted speech codes have established a general debating culture, things will settle down.​


Second, it is only normal that this radical shift comes to the dislike of many users who grew used to the old hierarchy of values. Thus leading to the subjective impression that 'NeoGAF is going down the drain' or becoming a bastion for the 'alt-right'. Whether this is true or not comes down to the ability of this community to engage with controversial ideas in a reasoned and responsible manner, and not to heavy-handed moderation.​


Third, while the NeoGAF community is reevaluating its hierarchy of values, it should be made clear that other values are not discarded. So feel free to disagree with each other, but acknowledging the other person's values and understanding where he comes from, contributes greatly to a more healthy discussion. When the value system is changing, clarify the reasons why this is happening and why it's considered necessary. Do this by underlining the strengths and benefits of your own proposed hierarchy, not by shitting on other people's belief systems and values. It is important to explain and make people understand why changes are happening. In that regard I think that EviLore and his team are doing a good job (or at least that seems to be their intention), but it also comes down to the responsibility of every single member.​

That other place...
For obvious reasons, I feel somehow reluctant to talk about this, but I think it's important in the context of this discussion. It is quite evident that the people who left have chosen a wholly different hierarchy of values, revering the representation of identity above all else. They are doing so partially to the detriment of any other values, leading to a whole new set of different problems. There is certainly value in reasoned discussion of these problems because they pertain to the validity of the value hierarchy on NeoGAF. What's not conducive though is when these discussions merely serve to point fingers at other communities or people. Both communities should be aware that there is still significant overlap between their values, but they disagree on how they should be weighted and/or applied.

Considering the quite suffocating atmosphere of this forum in the past, it is only natural that its members have the need to vent their frustrations now that they feel allowed to talk more freely. Although I would advise to kindly follow the above mentioned proposals as to prevent some sort of silly flame war. I don't think the gaming community needs any more of that and most people are getting sick and tired of that.

Brilliant post. Agreed on all counts. One thing I'd really like to add is that, as a community, we really need to be willing to admit when we are wrong. The reason we want open discussion is to hopefully get a flow of ideas that challenge our viewpoints in order to learn something and hopefully grow.
 

prag16

Banned
Its become a mutated beast where we’ve leapfrogged past true conservative counterviews into dangerous waters. Posting reciepts make no difference because those same posters just change the topic “oh, THIS post, well because of (insert inconsquential sentence to the spirited of the post/things taken out of context, etc).

I knew it went to shit when in a fucking comic book movie thread that one dude came in with a ‘as a black woman i found this (black panther) anti-african american,’ trying to derail the post and i gave him a snarky reply calling him out on the obvious troll tone of the post and he winked at me back with a ‘you know it guurl’ reply or whatevef he said. It took him days to get him banned even tho it was prime shitposting.

Problem is that instead of opening the boards up to different views, its just open to trolling. Post up an article; the news source is biased. Post up facts; ya reading the facts wrong. Etc. There is no truth on gaf OT anymore, right or left. Lets dance on the ashes
Every single ounce of this post is complete and total nonsense. The one asshole you're talking about did indeed take a couple days to get banned but guess what, people get the benefit of the doubt around here now. What a novel idea. And your third paragraph perfectly describes resetera. It has no relation to here anymore.
 

prag16

Banned
So stop asking me for receipts, because I actually literally cannot provide them if I plan on staying here -- which, for right now, I do.
It's okay, I checked your post history back to mid January. You argued with a couple pieces of work, probably emboldened by the increased freedom here. But these were very few and far between and still nothing I'd remotely describe as alt right. Slightly ignorant and clumsy arguments more than Nazis literal or otherwise. And I have not seen those particular posters around lately.

Again, most of those complaining, it can easily be explained by just being so completely used to and desensitized by the old state of affairs that any swing at all seems enormous.
 
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I think the worst and most derailing kind of forum behaviour in a serious discussion (outside of e3 threads where its funny) is posting reaction gifs to arguments or with which to emphasize your feelings. This is 4chan image board levels of derailment/mindless reactionary posting.

As for the broader situation, I believe this ancient Chinese proverb that I just made up says it best:

~It is better to post freely among edgy shitlords; than to feel the eyes of Big Brother burrowing into your back at every turn.

Best case scenario is a middle ground, where shitlords don't take over and moderation doesn't turn into oppression. This balance is attainable. The mods just need to stick to the rules of this board; and to enforce them consistently.

Fake news can be disproved within minutes or hours, conspiracy theories can in time become fact or more likely; remain fiction. But neither fake news nor conspiracy theories nor alarmist political labels can bolster a good argument. For that you need good old fashioned honest debate.

Whatever becomes of this place, let us at least all declare that we tried.
 
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