Support NeoGAF

[Nymphae]

The biggest fighting game franchise is MK. Strip the visuals out of MK and see if it sells as much as it does

Based on what metric?

Let's launch stick figure fighter for the ultra hardcore!

I don't see why this couldn't work. Nidhogg was pretty light on graphical elements; the only thing distinguishing players was colour, and the gameplay was tight as fuck.

Also, One Finger Death Punch is amazing, it's all stick men. Not exactly a fighter, but worth mentioning.

 

[Iaterain]

Guys, just ignore these paid shills like I do. Their comments doesn't make any sense like it was written by insane people who will fight to death in order to Red Bull ads to invade our games.
It isn't OK to lock in game content (FM) behind ads and Capcom should be ashamed for that.

 

[Dude Abides]

It begins.

 

[Nymphae]

Guys, just ignore these paid shills like I do. Their comments doesn't make any sense like it was written by insane people who will fight to death in order to Red Bull ads to swarm our games.
It isn't OK to lock in game content (FM) behind ads and Capcom should be ashamed for that.

It's additional FM, you can not watch ads and continue to earn FM the same ways you always did.

 

[TheDuskwalker]

It's additional FM, you can not watch ads and continue to earn FM the same ways you always did.

For now*

 

[Nymphae]

For now*

So the only news then is you now have an additional way to earn FM, if you want that. FUCK CAPCOM.

 

[lock2k]

Based on what metric?

Sales? Which metric should be used? WTF.

 

[TheDuskwalker]

So the only news then is you now have an additional way to earn FM, if you want that.

For now*

 

[lock2k]

Based on what metric?


I don't see why this couldn't work. Nidhogg was pretty light on graphical elements; the only thing distinguishing players was colour, and the gameplay was tight as fuck.

Also, One Finger Death Punch is amazing, it's all stick men. Not exactly a fighter, but worth mentioning.

OK, cool ideas, but good luck trying to make it a million seller. Visuals are important. These are video games, after all, visuals are the first thing to draw customers (the vast majority of them).

 

[Nymphae]

Sales? Which metric should be used? WTF.

Has MK outsold SF? Honestly not sure. I know lifetime series sales it hasn't. MK isn't very prominent in the Evo tourneys though and many fighters have more entrants.

 

[zenspider]

I have no problem with this because I'm good at ignoring ads

I am very sensitive to ads. You may as well be knocking on my door and lying to my face for the reaction they illicit in me.

Sports and eSports sponsorship doesn't trigger me (ugh) like that, but the screenshots with CPT logos look cheap and that's super-distracting. I'm sure non-Capcom stuff will put me on tilt like an online Ken, so this a non-starter for me.

I'm already paying real money to keep ads off of my screens, I guess losing Fight Money too is just par for fucking course. I can't find that option fast enough.

 

[Nymphae]

For now*

lol, right. So nothing is being forced on me and I have new ways to earn money. I guess it's fun to be outraged.

 

[TheDuskwalker]

lol, right. So nothing is being forced on me and I have new ways to earn money.

For now*

 

[zenspider]

I feel sorry for people who bought the game 60$ and have to submit to this shit.

I got over a thousand hours on this game since launch. The electricity to play cost me more than the game at this point haha.

 

[Helios]

Has MK outsold SF? Honestly not sure.

Pretty sure it did. SFV sales were not great, especially compared to it's predecessors.

 

[Nymphae]

If you've ever looked up Capcom's Platinum sales list, SF as a whole isn't that massive, it's basically SFII and SFIV. Basically SF has 2 individual successful games, and then a few mllion and 2 million sellers, but then you compare the rest of the series compared to MK and Tekken which are more consistent across the board.

I can't access that info at work I looked up http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Best_selling_fighting_games and best selling franchises are apparently

Franchises

1. Tekken - 47 million[8][9]
2. Street Fighter - 45 million[10][11]
3. Super Smash Bros. - 40 million
4. Dragon Ball - 39.782 million[6]*
5. Mortal Kombat - 37 million
6. Soul Calibur - 12 million

I can see Tekken and MK selling more these days. But SF still has that FGC mindshare, it's always the top spot at Evo.

For now*

I'm not sure why I should get outraged at a positive development. Of course we could posit negative hypotheticals for anything.

 

[Aenima]

I dont like it, but as long thers an option to disable the ads im ok with this. We know ppl using the ads will get more fight money, i just hope they dont nerf the already little fight money ppl get for the ppl that dont want to run around as a billbord.

 

[Nymphae]

Pretty sure it did. SFV sales were not great, especially compared to it's predecessors.

Among the tournament players, I wonder which has the bigger community. I have no doubt MK does better with the more casual FG fans.

 

[Secret_Lover]

You guys know the old adage "Fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."? This is the second time that Capcom has moved the goalposts. First by removing FM generation from single-player modes and now by throttling FM generation behind ads. The rate of fight money generation has always been glacial even in vanilla before they started messing with it. Assuming you want to unlock characters/stages at an even remotely acceptable rate the ads will basically become mandatory.

 

[lock2k]

Has MK outsold SF? Honestly not sure. I know lifetime series sales it hasn't. MK isn't very prominent in the Evo tourneys though and many fighters have more entrants.

Nowadays, not lifetime. MK is the best selling fighting game of the generation.

But looking at the lifetime sales up there, it will outsold it soon. Two more MK entries and it will outsold SF lifetime. SF will only remain at the top if the next entry isn't a total clusterfruck trainwreck like V was.

 

[zenspider]

They are optional costumes with ads about the most important SFV tournament.

While i see and understand the danger of this intrusive marketing, it's not a banner in the middle of your screen.
It's some UGLY sticker OPTIONAL that GIVE you a Bonus of ingame money.

As long as it's optional and don't advertise tooth pate or detergent, I'm fine with it...
I'm aware versus fighting game is a niche genre that require a lot of money to be made properly, I can do some compromise to keep this genre and the FGcommunity alive... But don't push it too far Capcom you are on the edge.

It's ugly enough to distract me (I actually really dig the Red Bull costumes), and only a matter of time I imagine until there's some Axe Body Spray gloves (stun female fighters 10% faster), Lay's Chip damage, and new CA2's called 'Supreme Arts' brought to you by Taco Bell.

Probably not, but hey.

It's weird to have to 'buy in' for well designed corporate costumes like the Red Bull set, and 'buy out' of garish stickers. That's probably the heart of the real ick factor for me.

 

[Nymphae]

Axe Body Spray gloves (stun female fighters 10% faster)

One would hope they learned their lesson from the SFxT Gem fiasco. You're not going to see gameplay altering DLC in SF.

 

[Dada55000]

Has MK outsold SF? Honestly not sure. I know lifetime series sales it hasn't. MK isn't very prominent in the Evo tourneys though and many fighters have more entrants.

Series lifetime? No. MK11 does as well as MKX then it'll be yes, even if Capcom releases a new SF, should the next SF follow SFV's trajectory.

In current mainstream? MK blows SF out of the water. MK is doing the best it has since the early arcade days, while SFV pissed away more than half the audienc SFIV had. MK is legit close to doing Tekken 3&5 numbers currently. SF needs a hard course correction to reinvigorate sales.

Tourneys, Evo et al is a completely worthless metric that only FGC people trot out. You don't even have to look at MK. SFV is doing better numbers than IV when it comes to entrants and views, and yet it's selling like absolute shit compared to it. FGC popularity and real populariy have nothing to do with eachother.

 

[Nymphae]

Tourneys, Evo et al is a completely worthless metric that only FGC people trot out. You don't even have to look at MK. SFV is doing better numbers than IV when it comes to entrants and views, and yet it's selling like absolute shit compared to it. FGC popularity and real populariy have nothing to do with eachother.

I can believe it's more popular now, really it's always been more popular with people who cared more about gore than execution, and that market must be bigger than the hardcore FG fans. I've tried with each new game to get into it, and the mechanics always feel inferior to SF to me.

 

[TheDuskwalker]

I can't access that info at work I looked up http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Best_selling_fighting_games and best selling franchises are apparently
I can see Tekken and MK selling more these days. But SF still has that FGC mindshare, it's always the top spot at Evo.

Here's a actual breakdown of Capcom's games by platinum sales.
http://www.capcom.co.jp/ir/english/finance/million.html
Thing with SF is most the sales are SFII and SFIV, and there multiple versions, on the flip side compared to Tekken for example every console Tekken game has been a 3 million+ seller except Tekken Tag 2, that's 8 out of 9.

MK went through a dark time after UMK3, but each installment was still consistently 1-2 million sales, with some reaching that 3 million area, but this series really spiked with 9 and 10, which if it stays consistent into the future it could now top SF and possibly even Tekken one day. Also if we count Smash, with Smash Ultimate is almost assured 10 million+ sales, it's definitely going to be top dog soon.

I'm not sure why I should get outraged at a positive development. Of course we could posit negative hypotheticals for anything

Which is a valid argument....if you've lived under a rock since 2006. DLC started as worthless horse armor, mictransactions started as the new horse armor after DLC became something more, lootboxes then became the new horse armor as microtransactions became something more. "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

If something is successful, the next step is to exploit it more, then more, and then more. The fight money grind was already a issue in SFV, and Capcom's response was ads to decrease said grind that people were already complaining about, so you can already see how this system could be exploited, if Capcom wished it to be.

 

[michaelius]

I really regret buying SFV - the whole grind aspect makes it much less enjoyable than previous parts and it's obvious they made it just to sell DLC

 

[Nymphae]

Which is a valid argument....if you've lived under a rock since 2006. DLC started as horse armor, mictransactiosn started as the new horse armor after DLC became more, lootboxes then became the new horse armor as microtransactions became more. "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

If something is successful, the next step is to exploit it more, then more, and then more.

As I've been saying, I'll stop supporting the game when it becomes exploitative. It's not. Yes SFV had a horrific launch.

However, I bought a brand new game (AE) for $35. It's got more modes than other fighters that cost me more (BBXTB is a fucking joke), and I haven't had to pay a cent more for additional content, AND, if I do decide I want some of that additional content, I can grind for it. What other fighter lets me do this?

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

The biggest fighting game franchise is MK. Strip the visuals out of MK and see if it sells as much as it does.

Let's launch stick figure fighter for the ultra hardcore!

This is a really stupid and reductive argument. Yes stick figure fighter could actually do pretty well if the gameplay was stellar, as proven by several retro indie releases. Plus it still says nothing about whether or not additional costumes is the thing that would push people away and even lower your said sales-as-good metric. (it wouldn't)
And on top of that, all the people that bought MK at launch to get their mk nostalgia factor fix, aren't the same people that are still playing today obviously, they've since moved on to the next hot thing because fighting games do require a bit of dedication, and when you've ran through your "story mode" and silly SP content that barely resembles a fighting game, you have no choice but to play other actual people, cry about how hard online is, quit and boot it up once in a blue moon afterwards.
Which is fine, since you've gotten your "30" hours out of it by then I guess. But let's not kid ourselves by saying that some alternate costumes are what finally going to make everyone who's about to go into the 4th season of SF5, suddenly drop it because that red bull logo is so offensive and makes the game unplayable.

As long as capcom doesn't start deleting your character from the roster, nobody is going to stop enjoying this game over some optional ads or alt costumes. Get your silly ass out of here.

 

[TheDuskwalker]

As I've been saying, I'll stop supporting the game when it becomes exploitative. It's not. Yes SFV had a horrific launch.

However, I bought a brand new game (AE) for $35. It's got more modes than other fighters that cost me more (BBXTB is a fucking joke), and I haven't had to pay a cent more for additional content, AND, if I do decide I want some of that additional content, I can grind for it. What other fighter lets me do this?

The fact you can unlock characters through fight money is always the biggest compliment you can give to this game, especially with exploitative games like BlazBlue CTB out there, and SoulCalibur VI with it's disc locked day 1 fan favorite character. The problem with fight money system though is just how much is locked away behind either it or real money, you even have to use it for story mode costumes (which is just silly, and all other costumes are paid only) and so many stages, even the time of day variations, and then they started adding things like fighting chance lootboxes and extra battles, the amount of stuff you have to use fight money on vs. what you actually get starts becoming a issue. It sounds good on paper, just like a FTP game and it's grind system, until you realize just how much grinding is actually required if you actually wanted all that. I mean most people don't even have the gain a million fight money trophy, and a million fight money isn't that much for all the stuff you can get actually.

Thankfully I too bought the AE version with the vouchers, so it's rarely been a issue on things I want. Do wish stages though weren't fight money, only because you'll rarely see anything but the defaults online. Not a issue in arcade mode thankfully.

But yeah, Capcom thankfully mostly fixed that mode problem that so many other fighters suffer from now days, not the best but still much better than most modern alternatives., BlazBlue CTB being the worst. What a joke that game turned into.

 

[onQ123]

Prepare yourselves because this will be the only way that the full size games will survive in the Netflix gaming era .


Thread from 2012

What if all PS4 Games are free to play with ads like broadcast TV?

I just had a crazy dream about the PS4 being all about free to play games & it was just like TV\Movies you could play for free with ads between the gameplay or you could have a pay channel with no ads or you could just buy the games like you would buy a DVD\Blu-ray. everything was the same besides the shows\movies was replaced with games. yeah I know crazy! I don't even have dreams about video games but somehow I just had this dream maybe I need to stay off of NeoGaf late at night.

 

[Nymphae]

The problem with fight money system though is just how much is locked away behind either it or real money, you even have to use it for story mode costumes (which is just silly, and all other costumes are paid only) and so many stages, even the time of day variations, and then they started adding things like fighting chance lootboxes and extra battles, the amount of stuff you have to use fight money on vs. what you actually get starts becoming a issue. It sounds good on paper, just like a FTP game and it's grind syste, into you realize just how much grinding is actually required if you want all that.

I still think it's fair though honestly. I completed various single player content, and had enough for 3 character unlocks, I also bought a few stages, 2 costumes, and a couple colours I think. I've been playing for a while after doing all that, and I'm back around 185,000 FM, almost enough for 2 more characters. I'll probably just buy some stages.

I'm not going to pretend that it's brimming with content like an MK game, I do think it's dumb that so many stages require purchasing, and I wish they'd get their ass in gear and give me more music options/DLC packs. But at the end of the day, I'm personally never left wanting - I feel the game has been an incredible value for the money I put into it, and it keeps updating with new cool stuff every so often. I like this much better in many ways compared to the old system of having to buy a $40-60 update version to keep up with the latest changes.

 

[lock2k]

This is a really stupid and reductive argument. Yes stick figure fighter could actually do pretty well if the gameplay was stellar, as proven by several retro indie releases. Plus it still says nothing about whether or not additional costumes is the thing that would push people away and even lower your said sales-as-good metric. (it wouldn't)
And on top of that, all the people that bought MK at launch to get their mk nostalgia factor fix, aren't the same people that are still playing today obviously, they've since moved on to the next hot thing because fighting games do require a bit of dedication, and when you've ran through your "story mode" and silly SP content that barely resembles a fighting game, you have no choice but to play other actual people, cry about how hard online is, quit and boot it up once in a blue moon afterwards.
Which is fine, since you've gotten your "30" hours out of it by then I guess. But let's not kid ourselves by saying that some alternate costumes are what finally going to make everyone who's about to go into the 4th season of SF5, suddenly drop it because that red bull logo is so offensive and makes the game unplayable.

As long as capcom doesn't start deleting your character from the roster, nobody is going to stop enjoying this game over some optional ads or alt costumes. Get your silly ass out of here.

I still stand by my argument. Stick Figure fighter would be an indie success, but it would never be mainstream. People like flashy stuff.

I grew up playing arcades and I spent all of the PS1 era playing just fighting games and the occasional platformer. I have all Street Fighter games, all MK games, all Tekken games, all KOF games, all Marvel Crossovers, Rival Schools, Project Justice, and the list goes on and on and I still stand by what I said.

I much prefer the game Arika is making to whatever Capcom does nowadays. Also, I don't give a shit about the FGC, never did, never will.

 

[TheDuskwalker]

I still think it's fair though honestly. I completed various single player content, and had enough for 3 character unlocks, I also bought a few stages, 2 costumes, and a couple colours I think. I've been playing for a while after doing all that, and I'm back around 185,000 FM, almost enough for 2 more characters. I'll probably just buy some stages.

I'm not going to pretend that it's brimming with content like an MK game, I do think it's dumb that so many stages require purchasing, and I wish they'd get their ass in gear and give me more music options/DLC packs. But at the end of the day, I'm personally never left wanting - I feel the game has been an incredible value for the money I put into it, and it keeps updating with new cool stuff every so often. I like this much better in many ways compared to the old system of having to buy a $40-60 update version to keep up with the latest changes.

To be fair we both got arcade edition, just imagine you got a version that started with 12 less characters and costumes, and had 18 characters to consider instead of just 6. Having enough fight money for 3 character unlocks and some stages would seem less generous from that perspective when looking at starting rosters of the competition.

 

[Nymphae]

To be fair we both got arcade edition, just imagine you got a version that started with 12 less characters and costumes, and had 18 characters to consider instead of just 6. Having enough fight money for 3 character unlocks and some stages would seem less generous from that perspective when looking at starting rosters of the competition.

Sure, early adopters of the game got burned (perhaps early adopters is a little unfair of a term, you should have a reasonable expectation that the game will be feature complete - the day 1 buyers got burned). As it stands now, I think the package is worth far more than the asking price.

And although I'm aware most people don't just play a main, I only play Ryu and occasionally pick up Cammy. The game has always had my preferred characters. But yeah, in general I don't think fighters should have DLC characters, as tempting as that is for the developers to do.

 

[TheDuskwalker]

I still stand by my argument. Stick Figure fighter would be an indie success, but it would never be mainstream. People like flashy stuff.

I grew up playing arcades and I spent all of the PS1 era playing just fighting games and the occasional platformer. I have all Street Fighter games, all MK games, all Tekken games, all KOF games, all Marvel Crossovers, Rival Schools, Project Justice, and the list goes on and on and I still stand by what I said.

I much prefer the game Arika is making to whatever Capcom does nowadays. Also, I don't give a shit about the FGC, never did, never will.

Marvel vs. Capcom Infinite backs up your argument. A game with good gameplay and online that actually works, yet a flop because it's ugly and some questionable roster decisions.

 

[Nymphae]

Sponsored Content will be introduced into Street Fighter V: Arcade Edition on December 11. Sponsored content will be displayed in several locations in-game to remind you about costumes, bundles, and the Capcom Pro Tour. When Sponsored Content is enabled, players can obtain additional Fight Money in Ranked and Casual Matches - these bonuses come with an upper limit. Here are the places where you will see Sponsored Content:

• Costumes: Ad Style – Every character will have an Ad Style costume where the sponsored content will appear somewhere on their clothing or model
• Loading Ads – A sponsor will appear in the versus screen before a battle – this will not affect loading screen times
• Stage Ads – Some tournament stages feature a sponsor like the Ring of Power

If you’d rather not see Sponsored Content, you can easily turn this feature off by going into Battle Settings, which will give you the following options:

• Sponsored Content Settings – Here, you can adjust the sponsored content settings. Turn sponsored content on to receive bonus Fight Money in Ranked and Casual Matches.
• Sponsor Display – Turning the setting on allows you to access sponsored content such as Ad Style costumes.
• Loading & Stage Ads – Selecting “on” gives you access to Stage and Loading Ads.

http://www.capcom-unity.com/strumsl...rom-december-11-18-on-playstation-4-and-steam

 

[Belmonte]

It is mind boggling to me how some players don't think visuals, art and atmosphere is important in a fighting game. That "fighters are just functions" type of talk. And it is not one or two dudes. There are a part of the fgc which really feels like this.

Even if you don't care about anything which isn't strictly about hitboxes and frame advantage, the setting, art and atmosphere are extremely important to get new players.

I can't imagine Red Bull ads or those terrible skins on Street Fighter Zero or Street Fighter III, even if it was easy to make at the time.

That said, I feel like the majority of those who are playing SFV now don't care about this or they would already jumped the boat like the rest of us.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

*snip*

Well shit, the game is now unplayable.

 

[Morinaga]

I don't think anyone has mentioned that Red Bull has had this advertising in the game for a while already,

RedBullgivesYouWings

The internet didn't seem to care back then. Never heard any of the players complain either.

Plus advertising has been pushed into games for decades, whether anyone consciously realised it or not.

Its a waste of brain power on this. worrying about it.

 

[ar0s]

It's ugly enough to distract me (I actually really dig the Red Bull costumes), and only a matter of time I imagine until there's some Lay's Chip damage,

Amazing. Love it

 

[zenspider]

I don't think anyone has mentioned that Red Bull has had this advertising in the game for a while already,

RedBullgivesYouWings

The internet didn't seem to care back then. Never heard any of the players complain either.

Plus advertising has been pushed into games for decades, whether anyone consciously realised it or not.

Its a waste of brain power on this. worrying about it.

It's a weird inversion of the model though, isn't it?

You have to 'buy in' for quality sponsorship, or 'buy out' (lose an FM revenue stream) of low-quality advertising.

People didn't mind the Red Bull advertising because it was opt-in, and properly incentivized.

They created the scarcity in the FM economy (which has real world value) - so to sell out that space is pretty disgusting.

It's like if you were a cashier, and getting a raise meant you have an ad play on your register POS when ringing up a customer, but you can opt-out of your raise. Obviously the stakes are lower, but that's the shape of the model.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

i mean it does kinda make sense, especially given e-sports are now a thing. there are ads all over real sports, there to appease advertisers, so it does make sense.

still, it's kinda scummy.

 

[Ichabod]

A lot of people missing the forest for the trees, here. It's irrelevant how optionally intrusive this ad initiative is, what matters is the precedent it sets for the industry. F2P mobile game revenue tactics (in any form) have no place in a game that is not F2P. You can bet your bottom dollar devs like EA and Activision are watching this situation like hawks and won't hesitate to push this paradigm as far as they can if consumers give this a pass.

 

[Nymphae]

A lot of people missing the forest for the trees, here. It's irrelevant how optionally intrusive this ad initiative is, what matters is the precedent it sets for the industry. F2P mobile game revenue tactics (in any form) have no place in a game that is not F2P. You can bet your bottom dollar devs like EA and Activision are watching this situation like hawks and won't hesitate to push this paradigm as far as they can if consumers give this a pass.

If it sets a precedent such that other games include completely optional advertising that provides a benefit to the player (actual real money value, however small), I'm all for that. If it's ever forced, I won't support it.

 

[Ichabod]

If it sets a precedent such that other games include completely optional advertising that provides a benefit to the player (actual real money value, however small), I'm all for that. If it's ever forced, I won't support it.

Fair enough, I suppose. Personally though, I think by the time it gets to that point, there will be no unringing that bell.

 

[ar0s]

Nymph, you are just the latest incarnation of one of the mongs who defend lootboxes. It's stunning that even after everything you do not see that this kind of 'extra revenue' in premium games can be both forced and provide a small 'benefit' to the player.

If I set the reward in game at 50% of what it would have been without ads, then offer you the other 50% to watch an ad after each game - you would say it benefits the player as you get the 50%. I would say it's forced.

As with all other MTX this will affect the core game design.

As with all other MTX you or others like you will still be arguing in two years that watching 5 minute long commercial breaks between matches "benefits the player."

 

[Nymphae]

If I set the reward in game at 50% of what it would have been without ads, then offer you the other 50% to watch an ad after each game - you would say it benefits the player as you get the 50%. I would say it's forced.

As with all other MTX this will affect the core game design.

As with all other MTX you or others like you will still be arguing in two years that watching 5 minute long commercial breaks between matches "benefits the player."

Is this happening, or are they keeping current FM obtaining methods exactly as they are, but providing an additional way to get more?

Please tell me more about what I think lol. I just fucking said, if this shit is ever forced, I'm out.

 

[iconmaster]

Happy Ads In Your Games Day.

Don't fret, consumer. You will be well compensated for your compliance.

 

[Clear]

Its basically impossible for devs to add in anything over and above what comes in the base package via mtx or whatever without some internet genius deciding that it was cut from the game, affects balance, deliberately increases grind etc.

 

[zenspider]

i mean it does kinda make sense, especially given e-sports are now a thing. there are ads all over real sports, there to appease advertisers, so it does make sense.

still, it's kinda scummy.

There's a distinction between sponsorship and advertising though.

What would make sense is that context would be having actual sponsored content like costumes and stages that can be incentivized in-game by character level, win %, etc., that can be further gameified by sponsorship rank i.e. you can lose your access to your sponsor content for poor play or failing to meet other criteria.

This is practically the inverse incentive-wise: you're punished for not wanting to be a billboard. It's the opposite relationship one has to advertising with the sponsorship model. There is no prestige associated with the brand at this point.