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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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icerock

Member
Especially since the APU is one of the cheapest parts in the system's BOM. It doesn't change price that much in a fab process. Neither does 4GB less RAM. And if they are going with 8GB, lord have mercy for that lowest common denominator in world design.

Actually, its the complete opposite. APU is most significant cost sunk of any console, both in R&D and manufacturing cost. 7nm fabrication node is expensive, so APU cost will have most significant share of any part in final BoM.

MS will lose a considerable amount of money per Lockhart if its intended to be sold at $150-200 of Series X MRP because actual savings will not even make up half of the difference between Series X BoM and Lockhart retail price.
 

Thedtrain

Member
tenor.gif
Don’t do it!
I will miss you saying the same thing next Monday ☹️
 

PaintTinJr

Member
So over at B3D a very interesting post about compressing that data used in the UE5 demo,. it looks as though vertices does not compress that well and all this talk of Kraken and BCPack is POSSIBLY worthless for vertices / Mesh, its could be down to the Raw speed and latency of SSD.

I remember reading or hearing in the UE5 demo the mesh stuff is uncompressed, but cant remember where I heard or read it - anyone ?

From Shifty geezer mod on B3D, good points :

I think that Sony mentioning you can use two methods for using the ssd is going to be key to compression ratios and effective access to granular data. I'd speculate that in the first method, it is like using the SSD as a normal setup and just getting the throughput benefit and decompression speed to get data into RAM - which should still outperform anything including the XsX system by some margin.

In the second method, I think the data will using a PS5 specific BLOB database format that will slice the BLOBS into rows and zip data across multiple dissimilar table rows - such as vertex data, textures and audio - to maximize compression ratios, while removing the need for the system to unpack an entire model/texture into RAM to access just the parts needed by an algorithm. Giving the best use of compression, without removing the random access capability - and the coprocessors work might be to optimise the data rows it retrieves.

The main reason I'm speculating that this is how they are compressing, and getting high ratios, is because I was reading some old info by Sweeney(2010) and Carmack(2008) that was linked in one of thread's tweets (yesterday) and them both talking about returning to general computation and software rasterization to do something like UE5 demo, makes me think that very coarse a-sync compute rendering work is being done on the CPU cores for the demo, and then being passed onto a-sync compute on the GPU. And the only efficient way I can think of how both software renderers interacting that way with unlimited detail with just 16GB of RAM is if they are able to exploit compression on fragments of data, and access them randomly like a database transaction.

edit:
I would also speculate that the IO complex will have some way of being told to cache uncompressed transaction results to its own memory to avoid repeated SSD access for recurring accesses, or will have an automatic way of knowing what to cache.
 
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DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Actually, its the complete opposite. APU is most significant cost sunk of any console, both in R&D and manufacturing cost. 7nm fabrication node is expensive, so APU cost will have most significant share of any part in final BoM.

MS will lose a considerable amount of money per Lockhart if its intended to be sold at $150-200 of Series X MRP because actual savings will not even make up half of the difference between Series X BoM and Lockhart retail price.

I’m talking BOM cost to fab. The prices don’t fluctuate that much between the two chips.

I know about the R&D costs and set retail prices going into initial design. There is going to be more shaved to get it to a $300 price point. Not just less CUs and a hair less RAM like rumored.

RAM is usually the most expensive. Last gen’s APU cost them between $60-$80 per unit. RAM was over $100.
 
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B_Boss

Member
You can't have the Flash run through a city in five seconds in the PS5 and fifteen seconds in the Series X. The Series X owners would complain of a lesser experience.

Here’s the thing, we have tons of opportunity right now and forevermore to know exactly the capability of each console. The basic facts that make each box unique is known and certainly can be known.

That kind of logic seems to imply that not only the mass of consumers are....well mindless shoppers (maybe true lol?) but that it leads me to believe that perhaps both consoles literally should just be one box and slap “Microsoft/Sony” onto it.

The thinking almost seems to be “So what if the PS5 has an ultra fast SSD with unique paradigm shifting I/O? So what if the Series X has its Velocity Architecture or powerful GPU? Please do not showcase those unless it’s first party games, please!”

I swear I mean what’s the point of having a console that has different features if there is a fear that those who purchase either will be bummed because they cannot do this or that?



To conclude:

lead-system-architect-mark-cerny-ps5-technical-dive-video-screenshot-1.jpg


....We were told long ago 🍻. Many scoffed and now the joke is on each and every one of them.

I Think this 2 images should be enough, its clearly a mess over there, dont know if any thread over here is going to be like that soon, but as soon that whole story explodes in the internet, welp, someone help Sweeney, Timdogg gang is going to be merciless.

MI5Eml4.png


q0XSjg5.png

“Insulting here is allowed?.”

Wow does that member know who Dictator is? If I remember correctly, and please correct me if I’m in error, Alex Battaglia/Dictator literally called the entire Era forum “trash” and utterly got away with it......again, as far as I’m aware.
 
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vpance

Member
Sure but it shouldn't with a sata ssd that's about half a GB/s.

From PCGamer

Many people will tell you that NVMe SSDs don't make your games load or run any faster. Those people are generally correct. If a game has to process data as it loads (and that's pretty much always the case), it might only be pulling data from storage at a rate of 100-200MB/s, but rarely would it actually exceed the 500MB/s that a fast SATA drive can provide.
 

azertydu91

Hard to Kill
From PCGamer
Then it tend to be a software problem which were one of the 2 options I said but since it was in another post you probably didn't see it.
Then great maybe they'll work on a better showing either way I don't get why they showed this demo that is supposedly not representative of their ssd speed.
I mean the teleportation in spiderman was impressive ,here? Not so much.
I think we could've waited for something a bit better.
 

Uzupedro

Member
I don't know if anyone cares, but an insider appeared out of nowhere in Era, and that was checked by the Mods, denying Grubb's statement that the event had been postponed, now who is right just time (or tomorrow if we're lucky) will tell.
Translator is saying everything wrong, fuck, sorry for the editions, I know english but my laziness is stronger.
 
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DeepEnigma

Gold Member
I don't know if anyone cares, but an insider appeared out of nowhere in Era, and that was checked by the Mods, denying Grubb's statement that the event had been postponed, now who is right just in time (or tomorrow if we're lucky) will say.

HeisenbergFX4 HeisenbergFX4 has his sources and...

So according to little birdies June 4th is still very much in play.

GAF > Internet > GAF
 
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Sinthor

Gold Member
If XSS has an SSD then yeah I'll agree with you.

Having trouble reconciling how the rumored XSS that's basically an XSX with a gimped GPU is actually cheap enough to make any sense.

I don't buy into this either. Unless.....the lockhart is actually a drive-less Xbox One...finally positioned as a home entertainment hub and game playing machine. I mean, let's take these supposed rumors....ok Lockhart is a Series X with 1/3rd or so the GPU power. That means same CPU? Same SSD? That's like taking a Bugatti engine and putting it into a Prius and then matching it with 14 inch wheels! Or...the SSD is also gimped to make the cost less. Then what happens to 100GB instantly available and other features? No, to me MS is pursuing their "Xbox as a platform" philosophy in wanting each game to run on all iterations of Xbox hardware. That's challenging enough for developers to maintain BC but also make a version of the game that takes advantage of Series X. I think that is the MS strategy. MAYBE they'll release a Series X that's tied to a multi-year GamePass deal or something. I just don't see the current "Lockhart" rumors as being viable for Microsoft at all. But...time will tell! We all know that companies sometimes make genius...or completely stupid moves. It happens.
 
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Uzupedro

Member

Audiophile

Member
I will call that, BS/FAKE 👆

Here is where this "friend" of blue negroho really stands 👇 :messenger_winking:


I wonder if he's confusing the flash chip configuration.

PS5 is 12Ch and subsequently 12 chips, running @ 5.5GB/s that's 0.46GB/s per chip.

XSX is likely 4Ch with 4 chips, at 2.4GB/s that would be 0.6GB/s per chip.

Sony will be achieving its speed by parallelism..
 
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HeisenbergFX4

Gold Member
Are your sources still telling you June 4th is happening or could Jeff Grubb be right on the date change? And do you know the exact date for Microsoft's digital June event? (Jeff said it's either on the 9th or 10th of June)

Honestly I had heard early June all along for Sony.

When I asked about June 4th my buddy says yeah thats the date he has heard.

I asked him if he has heard of changes and he said only to the format as a couple of 3rd party devs want to do their own thing.

Xbox event I haven't asked about.
 

Shmunter

Member
Maybe some nuggets in here? If what he says is true, the 100Mhz CPU difference probably doesn't mean much, or might even be sending the wrong message?

So NX Gamer’s assessment is XsX I/o is Is still handled but the CPU and only decompression is done on extra hardware. Vs PS5 entire I/o handled by hardware, no cpu involvement.

Surprising, I expected XsX to have done more with the I/o. If this is indeed accurate, XsX may lock up 2 or more cpu cores for I/o. And that’s being conservative if comparing it to 11 core equivalent of PS5 I/o hardware.

XsX is turning out to be more pc like than anticipated. Interesting times.
 
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Bo_Hazem

Banned
I would like to take advantage of your response to make a general appeal. It is very important that you do not take this quote as an answer to your points, but as a general idea of the situation. It is not so much about being right but about exposing some facts.

I would also like to point out that, as the following is a complex expression text, it is possible that some errors have been made in the translation with everyday expressions in my language but that they may not have a direct translation in English, or that some examples are not understood from the everything. In that case my sincere apologies. Let us begin.

Every opinion is respectable, but not every opinion is valid.

PS5 doesn't need more than what it has.

XSX is an extraordinary system. Within the traditional workflow system it is the best home system created so far.

PS5 is not traditional. It is the first and only of its kind. It may go well or it may go wrong, time will tell, but it certainly is not comparable. It is as if you wanted to compare an electric car and a gasoline car. Yes, there are things that you can use to generate a debate, such as speed in KMH or MPH. But it will be an inconsequential debate. The basis of both is to achieve a displacement, but it is achieved in different ways and with different mechanisms.

Attempts are being made (too many times) to defend absurd comparisons. I am going to give a very exaggerated example, but so that the idea is understood:

XSX may already have the best oil tank, filters, carb, spark plugs, combustion engine, or timing belt, but it does because you should have it, because it is necessary to get better performance with that type of vehicle. But PS5 does not need all those things, it is an electric car. PS5 does not need BcPack. With Kraken (by the way, improved version for PS5) you have enough for what your system can offer. The purpose is to make both PS5 and XSX reach 300KMH. That XSX surely reaches that figure better in the traditional way? Undoubtedly, for sure. But PS5 is not traditional.

Starting from this exaggerated example it is necessary to qualify that yes, that both systems have things in common that are comparable and debatable, such as wheels, windows, transmission axles, etc ... And that can undoubtedly affect the final performance. , but we would be talking about elements that perhaps do not exceed 25% of the total system. We will see if they end up affecting or not.

For example, PS5 is a system that has an SSD that can make RAM dispensable for certain processes, so what are you doing wasting time comparing the different RAM of different systems? Can't you see you're wasting your time?

Other examples, XSX gets extra space by compressing data. Perfect, one way to approach a problem. PS5 uses the SSD to send data directly without going through RAM, so RAM will have more free space for other things. Perfect, another way to approach the same problem (I don't know if you understand what I mean to say). Comparable? It depends. The visual result is the same?

What remains to be seen is whether PS5 is capable of delivering the same results as XSX by addressing the same issues differently. Therefore, the effective discussion should be reduced to whether this new content creation system (PS5) is more effective than the traditional one and if it is capable of offering a visual finish (and with optimal performance) that is comparatively identical or better than that of the systems. traditional. If the answer is "yes", it will not matter how it is achieved. It does not matter if one uses BcPack and another Kraken, or one 10GB of RAM and another 16GB. If the result shown on TV is the same in both XSX and PS5 (or higher in the latter) then Sony will have won, and the industry / developers too, as it will mean that a new way of creating content has been successful. That is to say, it will have managed to establish as "valid" the technology of the electric car in the automotive industry, then it will only be missing that with the years (or decades) the industry will programmatically migrate from the traditional system to the new one. Will that mean XSX results are bad? No. What is really being tested here is the "creation system", not the power itself. XSX will continue to offer the best results in the traditional style. And that doesn't mean PS5 can't deliver the same (or better) results with the new system. In the same way, surely there will be things that PS5 will do worse. Or things that were believed to be better and that are eventually discovered that do not work as well. It will be seen in time.

By the way, I don't want to be politically incorrect with some indirect colleagues in the sector, but Digital Foundry lives on comparisons. Which is fine. And with this, very interesting debates are generated. You can even generate a more logical or less debate, but I would not dare to say that its conclusion is the most appropriate in this circumstance. Since it could happen that one has to retract some unlucky words more times than one would like (as is already happening). Also note that it doesn't only matter what a number says, but what your eye perceives. Because here there is a lot of bionic eye detecting pixels in static images but also many of them wear glasses and in the end they have to end up playing on their sofa 2 meters from the TV. I understand this purism more for the pixels in those PC players who have a monitor that is sharper than their TV and at a much shorter distance (probably 60cm). But come on, I think that currently nobody is going to cut their veins by a few pixels more or less.

Sony is not looking to be "just" the best console, it is already on top, the PlayStation brand needs no advertising, Sony is in a situation where it can afford to "test" with innovative systems, and can afford to fail. In this case looking to improve the content creation system trying to maintain or improve the final qualities. MCerny is a developer who has designed 2 consoles with the intention of making developers' lives easier, since (intelligently) he knows that if the developer is happy and the creation system is simple, then consequently the developer will want to work with that system and therefore both the console will have more content and variety worldwide. And it is what is happening. It started to happen with PS4 and I think it will continue to happen with PS5. And this shouldn't confront people or anger anyone. Competitiveness is necessary to improve, and the result is that the user will always be the beneficiary. In addition, MCerny has enough experience behind him in various sectors to have earned the benefit of waiting to see what happens in order to judge properly. On the other hand, I understand that in forums there is a need to know everything "NOW". But these companies always make "investments" with long-term "results".

Whether or not PS5 will make it, or whether that system will catch on in the industry or not, only time will tell.

And the answer to the question will be known with the years and the results, and NOT with the theoretical numbers.

So, comparable? It depends. The visual result is the same? The ease of creation is the same? Can you do without certain things without affecting the final quality? Does the possible work system compensate based on the result obtained? We will see. My opinion is that it does compensate, amply. Although I know that there are people concerned about whether this affects their jobs. Although my opinion is again that I do not think it affects, let's be positive.

EDIT: Depuration of different translation errors and content duplication.

Amazing, as always. Thanks a lot! That made me think about the comparison in a better way, electric vs traditional cars. We all know that cars lose lots of power between flywheel (torque converter for AT), transmission, driveshaft, differential, then there is the actual power, WHP instead of crank HP. Electric cars are more rapid, instantaneous in comparison.

This reminds me of Elon Musk's Cybertruck, all people laughed at it and memed, but see it in action, just don't mind the damage control as it's usually that way:



 

ZeroFool

Member
Omg when they start telling lies you know thy serious and hurting. These fucking bozos are top tier disgusting and butt hurt.
OK but they could have read my post where I just asked the question. (I doubt they did, but I am having fun here!)

Basically it was what if it is a raid like design and would that explain the odd 825GB capacity? Along with would it help the speeds we are seeing.

My last PC build was a raid Nvme setup to play with improving star citizen performance. This was before I knew anything about XSX and PS5 setups. So that was my reason to post the question 40 or so pages ago.

/end playful speculation
 

3liteDragon

Member
So NX Gamer’s assessment is XsX I/o is Is still handled but the CPU and only decompression is done on extra hardware. Vs PS5 entire I/o handled by hardware, no cpu involvement.

Surprising, I expected XsX to have done more with the I/o. If this is indeed accurate, XsX may lock up 2 or more cpu cores for I/o. And that’s being conservative if comparing it to 11 core equivalent of PS5 I/o hardware.

XsX is turning out to be more pc like than anticipated. Interesting times.
Perhaps there's a reason why the Series X's CPU is clocked at 3.8GHz and PS5's is clocked at 3.5GHz....
 

RookX22

Member
Considering how newer titles perform with smt on vs off I would say most games will be using the 3.6 ghz setting. most of my info regarding this is Gamers Nexus videos comparing SMT on vs Off when the new Zen cpus were released. If MS has to dedicate cores to make up difference in IO it will be very interesting.
 

quest

Not Banned from OT
Seems like kinda a reach to speculate that XsX requires 2 cpu cores dedicated to the I/O unless I’m missing something. I thought MS had said otherwise?
Should be fast to find out if 2/7 usable cores are out of commission many x series game should perform worse than the PS5 28% less cpu will show up quick and developers will bitch like crazy once nda are up.
 

ZeroFool

Member
Seems like kinda a reach to speculate that XsX requires 2 cpu cores dedicated to the I/O unless I’m missing something. I thought MS had said otherwise?
Yep, I thought they had dedicated hardware in the whole velocity architecture setup. My memory sucks so wait for someone better to chime in. We have had Twitter posts from an engineer explaining bits of it.
 
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