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[MasterCornholio]

Not my intention.

Um but you posted the article so that was your intention.

 

[Thirty7ven]

We still doing “no name developer with nothing but trash in resume explains”????

 

[JerryinSoCal]

No replacement for displacement.
Even Tom Warren was impressed with Series S's performance. If ps5 performance is good, enjoy it. Why do you have to compare it with the beast Series X ? Everybody can enjoy next gen at multiple lower resolutions.

Tom Warren is impressed by everything MS does lol.

 

[LordOfChaos]

SMH they still haven't fixed that after the facts been out there

Information (hot chips slide) about the ROPs is at 15 min. "116 Gpix/sec", he should correct it. I dont know about the TMU's sadly.

Thanks, got a correction in

AMD Xbox Series X GPU Specs

AMD Scarlett, 1825 MHz, 3328 Cores, 208 TMUs, 64 ROPs, 10240 MB GDDR6, 1750 MHz, 320 bit

www.techpowerup.com

This now puts the pixel rate of the PS5 in excess of the Xbox, while the Xbox retains a lead on TMUs for texture rate. Like I've been saying, I'd expect far more of a mixed bag this gen vs PS4/XBO, Pro vs One X.

 

[RoadHazard]

Thanks, got a correction in

AMD Xbox Series X GPU Specs

AMD Scarlett, 1825 MHz, 3328 Cores, 208 TMUs, 64 ROPs, 10240 MB GDDR6, 1750 MHz, 320 bit

www.techpowerup.com

This now puts the pixel rate of the PS5 in excess of the Xbox, while the Xbox retains a lead on TMUs for texture rate. Like I've been saying, I'd expect far more of a mixed bag this gen vs PS4/XBO, Pro vs One X.

What does "pixel rate" mean? Does it mean PS5 could actually shade more pixels per second -> higher resolution/framerate? That would be the opposite of what everyone is expecting for sure.

 

[LordOfChaos]

What does "pixel rate" mean? Does it mean PS5 could actually shade more pixels per second -> higher resolution/framerate? That would be the opposite of what everyone is expecting for sure.

In a vacuum, yes, the pixel rate is how many pixels per second the GPU can render onto the screen. ROPs also deal with blending, i.e for some AA methods. But in reality this is only one step in an overall chain of graphics, you may be limited by pixel shading before that, or texturing, etc.

 

[RoadHazard]

In a vacuum, yes, the pixel rate is how many pixels per second the GPU can render onto the screen. ROPs also deal with blending, i.e for some AA methods. But in reality this is only one step in an overall chain of graphics, you may be limited by pixel shading before that, or texturing, etc.

But is either of these consoles really going to be limited by rasterization rate? Both can rasterize 4K120 without issue right (?), so when would any theoretical difference ever be relevant at all? As you say, pixel shading capacity is much more likely to be the limiting factor.

Is it the case that PS5 could potentially do more layered transparencies and better AA without a performance penalty?

 

[LordOfChaos]

But is either of these consoles really going to be limited by rasterization rate? Both can rasterize 4K120 without issue right (?), so when would any theoretical difference ever be relevant at all? As you say, pixel shading capacity is much more likely to be the limiting factor.

Some AA methods would have more than native resolution x fillrate for how many operations they have to do. In all likelihood absolutely pixel shader effects and other aspects of the GPU are going to limit this before the fillrate as I mentioned, but bespoke work tailored for either console will of course lead to interesting wins and losses.

 

[geordiemp]

But is either of these consoles really going to be limited by rasterization rate? Both can rasterize 4K120 without issue right (?), so when would any theoretical difference ever be relevant at all? As you say, pixel shading capacity is much more likely to be the limiting factor.

Is it the case that PS5 could potentially do more layered transparencies and better AA without a performance penalty?

It its all about what needs to be done in that frame time, a few clock cycles saved here, a missed L1 cache and 30 cycles lost there, A better shading a few won or lost etc, streaming in an asset (there is only 1 memory access at a time its shared), a cache flush, a SFS write back, it all adds up.

How does it add up, you run a benchmark, as there are 100s of things that add up.

So, what have you seen in terms of performance so far ? Any indications how things are coming together ?

 

[RoadHazard]

It its all about what needs to be done in that frame time, a few clock cycles saved here, a missed L1 cache and 30 cycles lost there, A better shading a few won or lost etc, streaming in an asset (there is only 1 memory access at a time its shared), a cache flush, a SFS write back, it all adds up.

How does it add up, you run a benchmark.

So, what have you seen in terms of performance so far ? Any inications how things are coming together ?

Of course, but I was specifically talking about PS5 potentially having superior fillrate. Whether or not that will make any practical difference.

 

[geordiemp]

Of course, but I was specifically talking about PS5 potentially having superior fillrate. Whether or not that will make any practical difference.

It will positively add to the frame budget yes, as will do many other things....

Its not 1 metric, never has been.

 

[ethomaz]

It is not the first time they says devs are surprise by PS5 perfomrance.
And they are not the only one that said that.

BTW I expect at least for the first year of releases the PS5 versions of the games showing better performance and/or graphics than Series X.

My post aged like a fine wine

 

[DonkeyKong]

My post aged like a fine wine

Out of interest why did you say “at least for the first year ?”

 

[Klayzer]

My post aged like a fine wine

Prophet

 

[ethomaz]

Out of interest why did you say “at least for the first year ?”

Because l was looking only at the paper specs and PS5 looked to have way less bootlenecks than Series X that makes development easy.

That why I said at least.

Now looking at the actual hardware performance I’m not sure if that situation will really change even after 2022.

Xbox has the compute processing power... so maybe devs can use it in some situations.

The point is PS5 focus on remove processing bootlenecks makes it run better even with less power... efficiency is the key here... it can use more and better the amount of compute power available.

 

[Raonak]

I am pleasantly surprised!

 

[Larlight]

No replacement for displacement.
Even Tom Warren was impressed with Series S's performance. If ps5 performance is good, enjoy it. Why do you have to compare it with the beast Series X ? Everybody can enjoy next gen at multiple lower resolutions.

oh I’m enjoying PS5 alright. It only eats monsters for breakfast! I guess people really can enjoy multiple lower resolutions. With the Xbox enjoying the lowest of them all!

 

[Hendrick's]

Too bad you all harrased John into hiding. Seems a pretty unbiased guy.

 

[Rentahamster]

Too bad you all harrased John into hiding. Seems a pretty unbiased guy.

WTF I love DF now!

The cycle never ends

 

[ethomaz]

Some random quote...

The sound cut out before he finished, but as a professional lip reader I was able to get everything he said.

The full sentence was

"We haven't actually had hands on with the PS5 yet, but just talking to developers... I think people will be surprised in a good way. [I have been] hearing some good things about that PS5[running at 1440p and dynamic 4K].

Not surprised by John's comments. He seems to be completely unwilling to possibly believe that maybe just maybe the Xbox Series X is simply the far better designed console in every aspect. He's complained all year about not being a fan of Microsoft being cross-gen for about two years if that but Sony announced a few games being cross-gen and outside of a single tweet, I haven't seen, read or heard him complain continuously about it like he's done with Xbox. Like, how does that work? If they're both doing the same shit and Sony seems to be doing cross-gen twice as long according to Jim "dance moves" Ryan, shouldn't he be realistically complaining about Sony's cross-gen approach twice as much?

Love it when I see people say this developer said this or that or even when these developers tweet. They're making games for both these consoles at the requests of the publishers that's signing their paychecks. Like, WTF else are they going to say?

Microsoft sent out their Xbox Series X prototypes on September 23rd if I remember correctly which was 7 weeks before launch to Gaming Media and YouTubers as well as Digital Foundry yet I don't see Sony doing that shit yet? When will they do that? November 11th? SMH.

When the head to head game comparisons happen in November and the two consoles get compared, I really hope it's any of the other four guys that do the comparing because John just doesn't seem capable of being impartial, fair and critical of Sony and PlayStation 5 if/when needed.

This thread reeks of desperation.

"Teraflops are just a meaningless paper calculation"

And every computer scientist in existence audibly protest's in chorus.

I'm so tired of hearing "Teraflops aren't the margin of which to measure system power"

If that is true, then when software optimizations meant to bolster's teraflop performance over 10x (making a single teraflop do 135 trillion calculations a second opposed to the current 4 trillion - a teraflop originally was a measure of 1 trillion operations a second - sub par software optimization have bolstered this number to 4 trillion - within 3 to 4 years - 135 trillion calculations through software optimization is on the roadmap - and this is before using new wild machine learning method like DLSS 3.0 ect.. to boost performance.. though these software optimizations will be aided by machine learning too) as it is scheduled to do - (I say sub par here, as it is only the first round of teraflop performance operations through software optimization that has had... any impact) please do not utilize these methods to increase graphic fidelity across your ecosystems. And please exit the performance Arena if Teraflop performance is not the important factor when attempting to achieve exemplary graphics.

Ridiculous.

Probably PS5 BC will be worse. But if they would have test this first on PS5 and would have this same performance, we would have a ton of comments, tweets, and videos on Youtube about PS5 being underpowered and incapable to run current gen games to 4k/60fps. Maybe this is because Sony is pretty silent.

 

[Aidah]

This was entertaining.

 

[THEAP99]

Not surprised by John's comments. He seems to be completely unwilling to possibly believe that maybe just maybe the Xbox Series X is simply the far better designed console in every aspect. He's complained all year about not being a fan of Microsoft being cross-gen for about two years if that but Sony announced a few games being cross-gen and outside of a single tweet, I haven't seen, read or heard him complain continuously about it like he's done with Xbox. Like, how does that work? If they're both doing the same shit and Sony seems to be doing cross-gen twice as long according to Jim "dance moves" Ryan, shouldn't he be realistically complaining about Sony's cross-gen approach twice as much?

Love it when I see people say this developer said this or that or even when these developers tweet. They're making games for both these consoles at the requests of the publishers that's signing their paychecks. Like, WTF else are they going to say?

Microsoft sent out their Xbox Series X prototypes on September 23rd if I remember correctly which was 7 weeks before launch to Gaming Media and YouTubers as well as Digital Foundry yet I don't see Sony doing that shit yet? When will they do that? November 11th? SMH.

When the head to head game comparisons happen in November and the two consoles get compared, I really hope it's any of the other four guys that do the comparing because John just doesn't seem capable of being impartial, fair and critical of Sony and PlayStation 5 if/when needed.

peter u never learn

 

[Klayzer]

This was entertaining.

Who knew Crow Pies were going to be the hot food item this Holiday Season.

 

[Valued Gamer]

Sony produced what they have been aiming to do for a long time.

Sony got burnt big time by the PS3, and learnt valuable lessons from Microsoft with how well designed a system the 360 was, and it was so far better designed than the PS3, it wasn't funny.
Better Ram set up, better GPU, far easier to program CPU, all while being cheaper and released a year earlier.

When Cerny took over the reigns he made the PS4 to be way more efficient and better designed than the PS3, and he has taken it even further with the PS5.
Sticking with a 36CU GPU, but clocked as high as they could safely get it to, basic API, and advanced tools and development environments that flow straight on from the PS4 ones.
For what Sony wanted, they certainly nailed it.
MS went a different direction, totally new API extensions such as Mesh Shaders, VRS, SFS, machine learning as well as XVA, larger GPU, not as straight forward Ram set up amongst others. They also brought the PC development tools along with the Xbox ones, meaning a more wide spead set of tools, while Sony is purely focused on one console.
I am not shocked that Sony came out of the blocks as quick as they did. I think it is a result of what their aims were.
Will be interesting to watch how it progresses. I personally think that the XSX will have longer legs and push past the PS5 as time goes on and devs get used to these new API features.
For what we thought was going to be a pretty boring generation with two consoles being very similar, they are far more different than we thought.
Fun times ahead.

 

[Ritsumei2020]

Guys wait until the power of the cloud tools is unlocked.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Results speak for themselves.

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

He was trying to tell y'all.

 

[Hawking Radiation]

Some random quote...

Stocks are running lower with every DF performance review

 

[Hawking Radiation]

Not surprised by John's comments. He seems to be completely unwilling to possibly believe that maybe just maybe the Xbox Series X is simply the far better designed console in every aspect. He's complained all year about not being a fan of Microsoft being cross-gen for about two years if that but Sony announced a few games being cross-gen and outside of a single tweet, I haven't seen, read or heard him complain continuously about it like he's done with Xbox. Like, how does that work? If they're both doing the same shit and Sony seems to be doing cross-gen twice as long according to Jim "dance moves" Ryan, shouldn't he be realistically complaining about Sony's cross-gen approach twice as much?

Love it when I see people say this developer said this or that or even when these developers tweet. They're making games for both these consoles at the requests of the publishers that's signing their paychecks. Like, WTF else are they going to say?

Microsoft sent out their Xbox Series X prototypes on September 23rd if I remember correctly which was 7 weeks before launch to Gaming Media and YouTubers as well as Digital Foundry yet I don't see Sony doing that shit yet? When will they do that? November 11th? SMH.

When the head to head game comparisons happen in November and the two consoles get compared, I really hope it's any of the other four guys that do the comparing because John just doesn't seem capable of being impartial, fair and critical of Sony and PlayStation 5 if/when needed.

Look at this one.

JUST LOOK AT IT !!!

Christ on a bike

 

[MasterCornholio]

When the head to head game comparisons happen in November and the two consoles get compared, I really hope it's any of the other four guys that do the comparing because John just doesn't seem capable of being impartial, fair and critical of Sony and PlayStation 5 if/when needed.

Well the other guys have been pretty critical of Microsoft. Basically it's a "I don't understand why this is happening" kind of situation.

 

[Red-Town]

Stocks are running lower with every DF performance review

Fixed it for you

 

[Calverz]

Some random quote...

And your point being? It still reeks of desperation!!

 

[Panajev2001a]

WTF I love DF now!

The cycle never ends

John != Battaglia != Leadbetter like three different people .

 

[longdi]

On hindsight, i guess no one really expect ps5 to be so goddamn easy to tap its hardware.
Can we say ps5 is the easiest to develop for console, ever, by far?

It helps cerny was/is a games developer/programmer.
I think thats the strength sony brings to amd, hands on team with thousands upon thousands of data from years of ps games.

 

[Stiflers Mom]

I still think the Series X has a lot more capability in the long run than the PS5 has
It seems MS really botched their launch though.

If anything, their first party studios should have been showing off what the Series X can do with one or two "rock your socks off" launch games instead of hiding or telling us how great their future games will be all the time.

At the moment I'd be 100% buying a PS5, no way around it. It''s simply the better value at this point of time.
We will see in 1 our 2 years if this might change, but right now it's no contest.

 

[Jon Neu]

WTF I love DF now!

The cycle never ends

John != Battaglia != Leadbetter like three different people .

The cycle never, ever ends.

 

[Lysandros]

Because l was looking only at the paper specs and PS5 looked to have way less bootlenecks than Series X that makes development easy.

That why I said at least.

Now looking at the actual hardware performance I’m not sure if that situation will really change even after 2022.

Xbox has the compute processing power... so maybe devs can use it in some situations.

The point is PS5 focus on remove processing bootlenecks makes it run better even with less power... efficiency is the key here... it can use more and better the amount of compute power available.

Even at pure compute level PS5 has a higher ALU occupancy and there is also the ASYNC side of the equation where related GPU components like HWS and ACE's run 22% faster on PS5..

 

[Panajev2001a]

The cycle never, ever ends.

Some people keep having a problem with the way two specific individual do “journalism”, not with another member of the same organisation... period. How is this a cycle ? You need to fight the point to the death no matter how ridiculous?

 

[Jon Neu]

Some people keep having a problem

On that we agree, Panjeep.

 

[Stilton Disco]

The more we learn about the hardware differences and API's the more apparent it is that the results we're seeing are down to equally correct but very different starting positions for the two design teams.

Xbox took everything they know about creating gaming hardware and looked at the market beyond just consoles, then created a machine with a huge amount of power in the XSX, that means it can also work as a server for Xcloud, as well as going as cheaply as possible in the XSS, while still remaining very close in design to XSX, and all with software that will make development between the two and PC as easy and painless as possible. It's a clear evolution of what they've been doing since the very first Xbox.

Meanwhile Mark Cerny took everything he knows as a Game Developer, and used that to strip back every unnecessary barrier and open up every bottleneck he could, that he knows cause frustration and get in the way of making games.

I absolutely do not expect XSX to ever overtake the PS5 in any significant way. The new tools will definitely fix errors like the screen tearing, and improve stability, but beyond that, both machines will improve and provide better overall results, continuing to give us awesome gaming experiences, just taking very different routes to get there.

The real difference is going to be in first party games, and that unfortunately means little for Xbox, because all it's first party games are still multiplatform titles, and will suffer the same constraints as third party titles that are just Xbox console exclusive.

Playstation exclusives however, particularly ones that started development from day one with the finalised PS5 kits, that's got potential to really shine and show us what all these weird customisations are for.

 

[Panajev2001a]

On that we agree, Panjeep.

I am still waiting for you to show off your understanding of what a cycle is while keeping on acting it out , but fill your boots in the meantime.

 

[Aceofspades]

No replacement for displacement.
Even Tom Warren was impressed with Series S's performance. If ps5 performance is good, enjoy it. Why do you have to compare it with the beast Series X ? Everybody can enjoy next gen at multiple lower resolutions.

Can somebody tell him? Bolded killed me

 

[longdi]

The more we learn about the hardware differences and API's the more apparent it is that the results we're seeing are down to equally correct but very different starting positions for the two design teams.

Xbox took everything they know about creating gaming hardware and looked at the market beyond just consoles, then created a machine with a huge amount of power in the XSX, that means it can also work as a server for Xcloud, as well as going as cheaply as possible in the XSS, while still remaining very close in design to XSX, and all with software that will make development between the two and PC as easy and painless as possible. It's a clear evolution of what they've been doing since the very first Xbox.

Meanwhile Mark Cerny took everything he knows as a Game Developer, and used that to strip back every unnecessary barrier and open up every bottleneck he could, that he knows cause frustration and get in the way of making games.

I absolutely do not expect XSX to ever overtake the PS5 in any significant way. The new tools will definitely fix errors like the screen tearing, and improve stability, but beyond that, both machines will improve and provide better overall results, continuing to give us awesome gaming experiences, just taking very different routes to get there.

The real difference is going to be in first party games, and that unfortunately means little for Xbox, because all it's first party games are still multiplatform titles, and will suffer the same constraints as third party titles that are just Xbox console exclusive.

Playstation exclusives however, particularly ones that started development from day one with the finalised PS5 kits, that's got potential to really shine and show us what all these weird customisations are for.

the whole SX dual purpose console/xcloud is just fud, started by geordiemp .

imo
MS designed the most powerful game console they think they can with the available parts.
Sony just managed to beat them out on the tools and api, because their master chief designer has game development background.

 

[Stilton Disco]

the whole SX dual purpose console/xcloud is just fud, started by geordiemp .

imo
MS designed the most powerful game console they think they can with the available parts.
Sony just managed to beat them out on the tools and api, because their master chief designer has game development background.

I don’t see the idea of the XSX being used for Xcloud as FUD, it would be a sensible use of existing hardware design and cost saving overall, while requiring fewer development overheads to get running.

If they spend money on creating yet another set of hardware (or just use less efficient PC's), then I'd say that's bad budget management that will further damage game performance on their systems, being split 4 ways instead of the current 3, while inevitable costing the customer more in the long term to make up for their greater, and entirely unnecessary, investment.

Using XSX hardware for Xcloud is a good thing as far as I can see basically, end of.

 

[longdi]

I don’t see the idea of the XSX being used for Xcloud as FUD, it would be a sensible use of existing hardware design and cost saving overall, while requiring fewer development overheads to get running.

If they spend money on creating yet another set of hardware (or just use less efficient PC's), then I'd say that's bad budget management that will further damage game performance on their systems, being split 4 ways instead of the current 3, while inevitable costing the customer more in the long term to make up for their greater, and entirely unnecessary, investment.

Using XSX hardware for Xcloud is a good thing as far as I can see basically, end of.

It is a good thing but geordiemp was trying to FUD as a bad thing.

both consoles are x86 apu, both can be used as cloud servers. I think the only difference, Sony dont want to setup their own backend and just buys off MS azure services(going forward) and AWS(currently).

 

[Azurro]

the whole SX dual purpose console/xcloud is just fud, started by geordiemp .

imo
MS designed the most powerful game console they think they can with the available parts.
Sony just managed to beat them out on the tools and api, because their master chief designer has game development background.

It isn't FUD, the chipset had a dual purpose, to be an XCloud server and run 4 instances of Xbox One in it and also to serve as the chip for the next gen console, and those design goals dictate choices and limitations.

Given the performance of PS5, it seems it's the better designed hardware as it's reaching higher performance with less transistors. I know you have difficulties admitting this.

 

[Md Ray]

the whole SX dual purpose console/xcloud is just fud, started by geordiemp .

imo
MS designed the most powerful game console they think they can with the available parts.
Sony just managed to beat them out on the tools and api, because their master chief designer has game development background.

Or... It's simply the faster caches, pixel fillrate, higher triangle rasterization/culling throughput of PS5 GPU is coming into play. And TFLOPS isn't the be all and end all of GPU perf.

 

[longdi]

It isn't FUD, the chipset had a dual purpose, to be an XCloud server and run 4 instances of Xbox One in it and also to serve as the chip for the next gen console, and those design goals dictate choices and limitations.

Given the performance of PS5, it seems it's the better designed hardware as it's reaching higher performance with less transistors. I know you have difficulties admitting this.

nice job with spreading the 'dual design limitations' FUD.
we shall see.
obviously sony has mastered the tools and apis with ps5.

while there is truths in that SS/SX/OneX/One takes up dev time, cant wait for once MS migrates OneX/One support to the xcloud.
We should start seeing better presets using SX/SS as the base.

I know, this plan of action sounds and leaves a lot to be desired, for those who are used to 'generation' cut-offs.
But it seems this is the way in the long haul. As games ecosystem shift to a sub model, to one that ties you down to login account and library.

 

[spyshagg]

On hindsight, i guess no one really expect ps5 to be so goddamn easy to tap its hardware.
Can we say ps5 is the easiest to develop for console, ever, by far?

Translation: I want to say its definitely the tools, but I must thread carefully. I'll Insert praise in disguise, hoping people are dumb to not see past it.

Brilliant.

 

[ksdixon]

I 'member when people were saying they were shilling for Xbox. Surely people will be consistent!

Both situations are true.

Previously they did pull PS5 on things they gave XB a pass or a gloss-over/make excuses for them on. See Kingthrash 's videos on YouTube.

Currently, they are saying that PS5 does such and such better, and Xbox fanboys can't comprehend it due to the TF number difference, so now they're the ones saying DF are biased towards Sony.