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[Fallout-NL]

Yeah, and its a good game. Much better than HL2 and Episode 1.

But still disappointing compared to how ground-breaking the first Half-Life game was.

The current, undisputed FPS king is Crysis.

The three most important FPS games in terms of gameplay evolution, in chronological order:

1. Doom

2. Half-Life

3. Crysis

Crysis is a fucking piece of shit. 'Undisputed', pff get out of here.


That third spot belongs to STALKER. That's fucking undisputed.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Halo fans? In my Half-Life thread?

It's more likely than you think.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Halo fans? In my Half-Life thread?

Both have guns and you shoot them in the first person

with sci-fi settings

they're pratically the same thing

 

[Satchel]

That largely allows the player's skill and talent to truly shine, rather than having to deal with a imprecise intermediary of an input that needs things like sticky aim. On console you are playing against other gamepad users and can ultimately become skilled with a gamepad, but the fact that you're still using something so limited means that the skill ceiling itself is ultimately limited. You and the players you're up against can only ever be so good.

I understand all your points, and technically agree. But the bolded seems kind of silly.

Why does it matter how good I can be on a controller if I'm only ever going to play on a console against other console players?

It just seems like a non-argument to me.

 

[Laughing Banana]

It's the way it is being told .. Not in your face holding your hand, like most games.

People always seem to equate 'less visible' as poignant or subtle.

Sometimes when something isn't there... it's just isn't there.

This is my personal opinion only: Half Life is fantastic in a lot of things, but story/characters are not amongst them.

 

[I H8 Memes]

Crysis is a fucking piece of shit. 'Undisputed', pff get out of here.


That third spot belongs to STALKER. That's fucking undisputed.

System Shock 2 did the FPS rpg hybrid way before Stalker. And did it much better. Not that Stalker isnt a good game, but I consider SS2 among the 3 best games ever made.

 

[Fallout-NL]

System Shock 2 did the FPS rpg hybrid way before Stalker. And did it much better. Not that Stalker isnt a good game, but I consider SS2 among the 3 best games ever made.

Yeah, I wont argue with you there.

Though, apart from the fact that STALKER felt better as a shooter, I also much prefer it's post apocalyptic setting. Goes with my username and avatar.

 

[Arnie]

That largely allows the player's skill and talent to truly shine, rather than having to deal with a imprecise intermediary of an input that needs things like sticky aim. On console you are playing against other gamepad users and can ultimately become skilled with a gamepad, but the fact that you're still using something so limited means that the skill ceiling itself is ultimately limited. You and the players you're up against can only ever be so good.

I understand and respect your argument, I guess I just don't see it in the same light. Whilst I'd never argue that controller based games could ever reach the same skill ceiling as their keyboard and mouse counterparts, I still find the skill ceiling more than deep enough in say, Halo, for it to keep on challenging me to the point where after three years I'm still improving. This to me is the bonus a skill based game offers, the enjoyment of developing a skill, and in that respect I find them relatively similar, if wildly different in overall challenge.

Halo fans? In my Half-Life thread?

Sorry bro, it's an easy overlap to make. Both influential first person shooters of the same decade, respecting wildly different platforms.

People always seem to equate 'less visible' as poignant or subtle.

Sometimes when something isn't there... it's just isn't there.

This is my personal opinion only: Half Life is fantastic in a lot of things, but story/characters are not amongst them.

This is my argument exactly too. Half Life doesn't have an amazing story. Or if it does, it doesn't tell it well at all. It might have great fiction, but the way this comes across in the Half Life games is vague and sloppy. Maybe this is why I preferred Episode 2 vastly; I felt the story in Ep2 was told much more succinctly and clearly, I knew what I was doing, why I was doing it and what it all meant.

And as far as characters go, I'll reiterate, Gordan Freeman is one of the worst characters to ever be considered iconic. If you can even call him a character at all.

 

[Zeliard]

I understand all your points, and technically agree. But the bolded seems kind of silly.

Why does it matter how good I can be on a controller if I'm only ever going to play on a console against other console players?

It just seems like a non-argument to me.

It's a matter of perspective. You're absolutely going up against others with the same limitation, but the limitation is still there, and that's the crux of my dislike for gamepads as an input for shooters.

With a mouse/kb there's no such real limitation, or at least not nearly to that degree. You aren't being handicapped; again, the fact that sticky aim exists means there's an implicit acknowledgement that gamepads have some inherent problems. I just have a preference for the player input to be as out-of-the-way as possible, so that you have something closer to a direct response with the game itself.

Compare a skill frag video from Halo with one from Quake and you can see the difference there - in one you're much more limited in what you can ultimately pull off, so while everyone else you're playing is also limited, I personally find that particular barrier something I'd rather stay away from. I want everyone to be unshackled.

It'll be interesting to see if variations on the IR pointer ever end up becoming popular on consoles, though it seems likely most people will be content to stick with dual analog gamepads since they've been around for so long.

I understand and respect your argument, I guess I just don't see it in the same light. Whilst I'd never argue that controller based games could ever reach the same skill ceiling as their keyboard and mouse counterparts, I still find the skill ceiling more than deep enough in say, Halo, for it to keep on challenging me to the point where after three years I'm still improving. This to me is the bonus a skill based game offers, the enjoyment of developing a skill, and in that respect I find them relatively similar, if wildly different in overall challenge.

I have no problems at all with that. Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[faceless007]

Compare a skill frag video from Halo with one from Quake

Obligatory

 

[Fallout-NL]

Obligatory

Man, those sound effects take me way waaaaay back.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

It's a matter of perspective. You're absolutely going up against others with the same limitation, but the limitation is still there, and that's the crux of my dislike for gamepads as an input for shooters.

With a mouse/kb there's no such real limitation, or at least not nearly to that degree. You aren't being handicapped; again, the fact that sticky aim exists means there's an implicit acknowledgement that gamepads have some inherent problems. I just have a preference for the player input to be as out-of-the-way as possible, so that you have something closer to a direct response with the game itself.

Compare a skill frag video from Halo with one from Quake and you can see the difference there - in one you're much more limited in what you can ultimately pull off, so while everyone else you're playing is also limited, I personally find that particular barrier something I'd rather stay away from. I want everyone to be unshackled.

I'm really not sure I get this argument. Sure, the skills are different, but they're also competing in different arenas. The fact that powerboats have a sharper turning radius compared to a yacht doesn't invalidate yacht racing; the fact that Magic the Gathering has more cards than poker doesn't mean that poker is now pointless. It's different strokes for different folks, and I really doubt that skilled Halo players feel like they're "shackled" by gamepads.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

I'm really not sure I get this argument. Sure, the skills are different, but they're also competing in different arenas. The fact that powerboats have a sharper turning radius compared to a yacht doesn't invalidate yacht racing; the fact that Magic the Gathering has more cards than poker doesn't mean that poker is now pointless. It's different strokes for different folks, and I really doubt that skilled Halo players feel like they're "shackled" by gamepads.

Bad analogy. It's more like comparing poker played traditionally with poker played while wearing oven mitts.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Bad analogy. It's more like comparing poker played traditionally with poker played while wearing oven mitts.

Not really. I've never had a problem controlling Halo, which is why it's so praised as a console shooter. Control isn't a problem because they've crafted a game where the controls work excellently within the framework of the game.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Not really. I've never had a problem controlling Halo, which is why it's so praised as a console shooter.

Oven mitts with the fingers cut off then?

 

[XANDER CAGE]

Oven mitts with the fingers cut off then?

I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, since I'm more of a Quake 3 person myself, but I just don't see Halo as a lesser. You know what DOES feel worse because of a gamepad? Pariah.

 

[Fallout-NL]

I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, since I'm more of a Quake 3 person myself, but I just don't see Halo as a lesser. You know what DOES feel worse because of a gamepad? Pariah.

Same here, PC guy at heart, but the first Halo game was perfect in every way (except maybe for the library ).

 

[jim-jam bongs]

I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, since I'm more of a Quake 3 person myself, but I just don't see Halo as a lesser. You know what DOES feel worse because of a gamepad? Pariah.

I'm mostly playing myself; that is a hypercritical bitch. The main thing which is lessened by gamepad usage is player intervention with regard to aiming. Think of it like RTS, where juking is a hugely important part of a lot of plays. If the balance between AI unit control and player intervention gets knocked out of whack then juking becomes a crap-shoot, and won't be a viable part of competitive play.

In much the same way, sticky-targeting and slower turning makes a lot of twitch moves impossible to pull off consistently, so they simply aren't a part of the competitive scene for gamepad-based shooters. When I watch eSports I want to see the highest level of skill possible, the restrictions of a gamepad mean that the highest level of skill displayed by Halo players seems dull and sluggish to me.

 

[delta25]

How do you know it's ready?


Quality, probably.

As I said, releasing nothing at all is better than releasing a merely good Episode 3.

btw: via Facepunch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yCVi2VVZpU&feature=player_embedded

I'm not asking for the game to come out tomorrow, all I'm asking is for valve to be a little more open about it, are they or aren't they working on it, "we'll talk about it when its time" is getting really fucking mundane/old.
I understand valve wanting to balance its relationship with both the community and the employes, but Valve being incredibly smart as there are should be able to conjure up a way that works for both the community and the employees.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

In much the same way, sticky-targeting and slower turning makes a lot of twitch moves impossible to pull off consistently, so they simply aren't a part of the competitive scene for gamepad-based shooters. When I watch eSports I want to see the highest level of skill possible, the restrictions of a gamepad mean that the highest level of skill displayed by Halo players seems dull and sluggish to me.

Sure, I can totally understand not liking it. The thing is, what makes the concept of Halo good is that it builds a game that works hand-in-hand with the limitations of console aiming.

Aiming is difficult, so it's slowed down -> characters are slowed down to compensate -> characters are given more health to compensate -> weapons fire fast and do little damage or fire slowly and do a lot of damage. The game doesn't need the same kind of "skill maneuvers" to be fun and engaging, it has its own.

It just all works in a way that isn't frustrating, provided you're not expecting (or pining for) UT99 or Q3A.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Sure, I can totally understand not liking it. The thing is, what makes the concept of Halo good is that it builds a game that works hand-in-hand with the limitations of console aiming.

Aiming is difficult, so it's slowed down -> characters are slowed down to compensate -> characters are given more health to compensate -> weapons fire fast and do little damage or fire slowly and do a lot of damage.

It just all works in a way that isn't frustrating, provided you're not expecting (or pining for) UT99 or Q3A.

You know, this is getting even further off-topic, but I think that TPS with an emphasis on movement a la Vanquish are really where you could see some incredible and highly skill-based competitive shooters on consoles where the gamepad would be a huge advantage, simply because, like you said with Halo, the skillset being cultivated is specifically designed around the controller.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

You know, this is getting even further off-topic, but I think that TPS with an emphasis on movement a la Vanquish are really where you could see some incredible and highly skill-based competitive shooters on consoles where the gamepad would be a huge advantage, simply because, like you said with Halo, the skillset being cultivated is specifically designed around the controller.

I just realized we're having this discussion in a Half-Life news thread (not like there's any actual news to discuss I guess), haha.

And I agree!

 

[The Librarian]

Halo fans? In my Half-Life thread?

There's a lot more crossover than you would think.

Botolf's a huge Halo fan too. And he was my co-op partner for the Portal 2 thread!

 

[Earthstrike]

Wow, talk about a far reaching way to reach conclusions.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

I just realized we're having this discussion in a Half-Life news thread (not like there's any actual news to discuss I guess), haha.

I swear I'm going to get permed for going off-topic some day, it's a serious problem. It's like how every single thread about BioWare I seem to spend an disproportionate amount of time talking about Obsidian.

 

[tci]

People always seem to equate 'less visible' as poignant or subtle.

Sometimes when something isn't there... it's just isn't there.

This is my personal opinion only: Half Life is fantastic in a lot of things, but story/characters are not amongst them.

Not many games can add character to a robot. In addition there are great human characters, although only HL2 and the episodes have meaningful characters. Easily forgiven since the original was amongst the first heavily story based FPS.

The story is what gets me to play HL.

 

[gabbo]

The story is what gets me to play HL.

Gordon Freeman - The cause of and solution to all of Earth problems (unless you count the expansions as canon). Joking aside, I agree.

 

[derFeef]

There's a lot more crossover than you would think.

Botolf's a huge Halo fan too. And he was my co-op partner for the Portal 2 thread!

I love the Halo campaigns. Thirded-ed

 

[Rodney McKay]

Gordon Freeman - The cause of and solution to all of Earth problems (unless you count the expansions as canon). Joking aside, I agree.

He's the John McClain of trans-dimensional alien invasions.

 

[rdrr gnr]

Crysis? How delusional do you have to be?

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Crysis is a fucking piece of shit.

 

[Fallout-NL]

I don't take kindly to those accusations.

All my posts are always 100% serious.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

I don't take kindly to those accusations.

All my posts are always 100% serious.

Part of me wants to say "lol you have bad taste" but your username and avatar makes that impossible for me. Conflicted.

 

[JaseC]

It isn't merely the span of time that's significant. As per the Final Hours of Portal 2, the studio stopped game development en masse for three months, starting in November 2007 (not really something you'd expect them to do if development of Episode 3 began concurrently with 2, or if it closely followed the release). And Valve's only recently begun a major overhaul of the engine and tools. It has all the makings of Valve beginning work on something big. Whether that's Half-Life or not is anyone's guess.

As for them not really saying anything other than they're still going to make Half-Life, that's perfectly understandable. Valve changes its mind. A lot. I'd rather not hear anything about Episode 3 or Half-Life 3 until it's fairly concrete, because it's a hell of a lot better than being stuck in a "HL2 release date" circus. Search your feelings.

Firstly, Gabe said quite unambigiously that the reason he shut down Valve's development pipeline was because he was worried that his fellow employees were becoming underwhelmed with working on the same projects. Given we know Episode Three was in development back in May 2006, I'd say it falls under that banner very snugly. Secondly, Valve have been working on a revamped Source toolset for much longer than "recently". I believe the quote I've paraphrased on more than one occasion was either from The Final Hours of Portal 2 or some interview before it, and the amount of work time that was coughed up was something to the effect of "many months". Ergo, I'd wager Valve have been working on drastically updating Source for at least 12~18 months (the 6-month gap introduced to factor in Valve Time).

At the end of the day, though, I have my reasons for being optimistic and you have your equally valid reasons for being pessimistic.

 

[angular graphics]

"I really like Half Life 2: Episode Two, but it doesn’t really feel like the end."

^ a string Valve put in the translation server: http://www.facepunch.com/threads/1148142?p=33790158&viewfull=1#post33790158

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[Rapstah]

"I really like Half Life 2: Episode Two, but it doesn’t really feel like the end."

^ a string Valve put in the translation server: http://www.facepunch.com/threads/1148142?p=33790158&viewfull=1#post33790158

I assure you that the guy who writes those has absolutely nothing to do with the actual development of Half-Life 3 until it gets to the point where he has to write those for it.

He or she might still know everything about the project, of course, depending on how open Valve is internally.

 

[angular graphics]

I assure you that the guy who writes those has absolutely nothing to do with the actual development of Half-Life 3 until it gets to the point where he has to write those for it.

He or she might still know everything about the project, of course, depending on how open Valve is internally.

You really don't know that. Valve's employees switch from game to Steam development and all there is between when they get bored. They have said so more than a couple of times.

 

[Rapstah]

You really don't know that. Valve's employees switch from game to Steam development and all there is between when they get bored. They have said so more than a couple of times.

Their employment page absolutely listed the translation head guy as doing only that job a couple of months ago.

EDIT: Translation guy, that is. There was only one person involved on that page. I doubt going back and forth between developing games and making the web front end for their translation API is common.

 

[angular graphics]

Their employment page absolutely listed the translation head guy as doing only that job a couple of months ago.

And how do you know this line was typed by him?

 

[JaseC]

There's certainly been a fair amount of Half-Life 3 shenanigans lately. Something is brewing. In Valve Time.

 

[Feature]

Yeah, and its a good game. Much better than HL2 and Episode 1.

But still disappointing compared to how ground-breaking the first Half-Life game was.

The current, undisputed FPS king is Crysis.

The three most important FPS games in terms of gameplay evolution, in chronological order:

1. Doom

2. Half-Life

3. Crysis

Crysis? really? It's a horrible game... only thing it defined was a new graphics standard.

 

[Corky]

See, this is why we can't have nice things.

Calling Crysis a horrible game? Really?

For me a horrible game is Big Rig Racing.

 

[derFeef]

There's certainly been a fair amount of Half-Life 3 shenanigans lately. Something is brewing. In Valve Time.

Most of it is coming from us through wishful thinking, though.

 

[JaseC]

See, this is why we can't have nice things.

Calling Crysis a horrible game? Really?

For me a horrible game is Big Rig Racing.

But labelling Crysis as a quintessential stepping stone of gameplay evolution is silly when STALKER released earlier and has superior open-world gameplay.

Most of it is coming from us through wishful thinking, though.

Yeah, but there's been a few seemingly concrete nuggets, such as the "Valve employee" agreeing to be photographed wearing the t-shirt.

 

[derFeef]

But labelling Crysis as a quintessential stepping stone of gameplay evolution is silly when STALKER released earlier and has superior open-world gameplay.
Yeah, but there's been a few seemingly concrete nuggets, such as the "Valve employee" agreeing to be photographed wearing the t-shirt.

Nailed it. Crysis was fun, but the sandbox was very limited.

And the t-shrit started all of it, if I remember correctly.

 

[JaseC]

Nailed it. Crysis was fun, but the sandbox was very limited.

And the t-shrit started all of it, if I remember correctly.

I wouldn't put it past Valve to throw a few red herrings given the attention the t-shirt received, but at the same time I ponder, "Why now?" and choose to believe they're teasing rather than trolling.

Edit: RPS recently did a great write-up on STALKER.

 

[Corky]

But labelling Crysis as a quintessential stepping stone of gameplay evolution is silly when STALKER released earlier and has superior open-world gameplay.

Sure, with that I have no qualms.

 

[Haunted]

Crysis is a fucking piece of shit.

What happened man, you used to be cool.

 

[JaseC]

Sure, with that I have no qualms.

_b

What happened man, you used to be cool.

So, what you're saying is that the two of you are having a falling out?

 

[Fallout-NL]

What happened man, you used to be cool.

I'm still cool. Just don't have any love for Crysis. Don't like the aesthetic, don't like the feel of the weapons, don't like the sci-fi turn those Crytek games always take after a few hours, don't like the setting, and I don't like not being able to run it properly on a single GPU card.

I understand the sandbox shooter argument, but it never played like that for me (STALKER did that way better, though I wasn't able to experience that until the COMPLETE mod). Maybe I'll give it another shot when the Nvidia lineup hits.

_b
So, what you're saying is that the two of you are having a falling out?

Nice .