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[Gahiggidy]

thunder monkey: i don't think that's true. the next gen augurs a LOT more procedural behaviors that are more effectively enabled on platforms with vastly greater resources for parallelization, especially dynamic properties from script and graph processing through material and physical behaviors, and which will open up all sorts of new gameplay models and experiences as the libraries and tools for them start to surface.

i've argued elsewhere, and still argue, that the wii's greatest failing and what will prevent it from getting many next gen aaa ports is the lack of proper resources for a higher degree of parallelization.

But there likely won't be many next gen aaa ports to be had. I doubt more than 2-3 quarter get released on average. Much like the movie industry.

 

[EatinOlives]

Assassin's Creed is one of the few that I'd be hesitant to say would translate well to the PS2. You'd lose asset diversity, collision complexity, and of course detail. Collision complexity is the stickler. The rest could be approximated at of course lower quality. Does this change the game in a mechanics sense? Not really no. Mainly in visual.

That's really my point, though. Visual feedback in a video game is important, mainly because this is primarily a visual entertainment medium. Saying we can just turn down graphics and have everything run on PS1 hardware in theory misses the point. It's neglecting the place of visual feedback in the gaming space, which isn't at all disposable.

 

[BlackJace]

More witty posts courtesy of Heavy everyone.

Funny how he threw a hissy fit at me and Diablos after we called him out for making posts that stir up shit.
You're an angel, Heavy.

 

[jerd]

Fair enough. Diff'rent strokes and all that. I can't be wowed when low specs lead to glaring flaws that could've been alleviated on rival platforms.


Woah woah woah. I LOVED SM3DL. I'd have loved it more on Vita, with tastier graphics and a better d-pad, but regardless I loved it. Great game.

I gotcha Dave. I agree in a way I guess. As pretty as SMG was, it sure is a lot prettier in Dolphin

 

[Fantasmo]

Wii U seems like a sweet system for the kids and nice enough for the older crowd too.

360 has served me well and I recently bought a blazing PC. Looks like AssCreed runs fine and NGRazer is not bad too. Nintendo made good decisions for themselves. Short sighted on the lack of optical surround, but I doubt they care much. Surround players aren't their target and at least its there for those who upgrade.

They may seem niche but their niche is gargantuan. Nintendo loves families and families love Nintendo.

 

[Tain]

You think that's what I'm saying?

The closer interpretation would be "There's only a handful of games on this generation of consoles that is not possible on the generation prior in a pure mechanics sense."

Take away frivolities of their design and they'd be possible. At some point you're not improving the core mechanics by increasing hardware power, just increasing visual fidelity. Which is a part of videogames (video being one of it's descriptors), but not the only. In a mechanics sense... 360 hardware can achieve just about any gameplay scenario you can envision.

It just depends on what priorities you have. If you want 100's if not thousands of individualized characters on screen? Still not impossible to achieve on the 360. If you want all of them to have randomized pathways and scripting? That will take concessions on the visual side, or just more power to achieve the fidelity intended.

But nothing about that denies my post.

I'd say that, if anything, this both undervalues aesthetics as a whole and draws an unrealistically large gap between aesthetics and mechanics. Aesthetics and mechanics are so closely related, so constantly feeding into each other, that ignoring even basic things like framerate and resolution when talking about how people interact with and react to games is weird to me.

I could have some super demanding PC action game with a ridiculous number of behaviorally complex enemies and completely destructible terrain all over the place and a lighting model that imposes dynamic visual impairments in specific situations and all that, but porting this to the 360 would probably force significant changes to either the game's assets, the engine's performance, or both. And either of those things are going to notably change someone's experience with a game, just as removing some of the more obvious mechanical complexity would.

 

[PhantomR]

YIKES! I'm starting to see an ocean full of banned souls as a result of this thread.


Time to do a hasty retreat

 

[Father_Brain]

God, this thread started out ugly and it's just getting uglier.

Seriously, don't get emotionally invested in this shit, people. It's not healthy. If you are, do your best to suppress it in your posting.

 

[NoirVisage]

it sounds like he has nauseatingly closed minded neogaffers as friends

There's a very subtle irony here, but big ups for loving one of the best bands in the world.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

that 3.4 ghz p4 gets decimated by a 1.6ghz ulv core i5

what the hell kind of universe did I step into when Drinky Crow is the voice of reason for clock speeds vs new chip? BAN HIM AGAIN!

 

[DimmuBurgerKing]

I love how Nintendo fans say that "hardware and graphics don't matter".

Yet, the same people almost had heart attacks at the sight of that Xbox 360-looking Zelda tech demo.

Also, funny thing how most of Nintendo fans say "Wii U + PC". Choosing PCs over consoles for 3rd party games is a weird choice for people who don't care about graphics.

You're overgeneralizing and making assumptions. Most people don't go "Wii U + PC" because they don't care about graphics. They go that way so that they can play Nintendo first party titles and enjoy the best of the rest, along with PC exclusives, on the most capable platform.

...And then if they're anything like me, they end up with all of the consoles anyway, because there are always worthwhile exclusives for each.

 

[Kazuma Kiryu]

I gotcha Dave. I agree in a way I guess. As pretty as SMG was, it sure is a lot prettier in Dolphin

just look at this!

 

[metalslimer]

I do think a few Nintendo fans need to look at the situation and stop with the , "graphics aren;t everything" statements. I think most sane people here aren't going to try and argue that the Wii U won't have some great games. But for the same fans that say graphics don't matter, you can't really say that playing a game like metroid prime or Ocarina of time when you said wow playing them a part of that didn't come from the beauty of the visuals (relatively at the time). A lot of people that criticize Nintendo do actually like their games and want them to go back when they actually pushed the industry forward tech wise. Not saying I think its a great idea for a company like Nintendo, but labeling people as just graphics whores doesn't add to the discussion.

 

[jackal27]

I'll never claim that graphics don't matter. However, I will say that a fantastic art style can overcome weak hardware any day. I'll always point to games like Xenoblade, Wind Waker, or any number of the amazing 2D indie games released this generation as evidence of that.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

I know that clock speeds don't paint the whole picture, but a 1.2 ghz > 3.2 ghz gap is pretty durn huge.

Do we have any examples of clockspeed differentials that large in CPUs where it didn't ultimately matter in the end?

Clock for Clock, in integer performance, the WiiU CPU potentially bests the Xenon by 50% or more, I've read.

But one is clocked 250% more than the other

I'll never claim that graphics don't matter. However, I will say that a fantastic art style can overcome weak hardware any day. I'll always point to games like Xenoblade, Wind Waker, or any number of the amazing 2D indie games released this generation as evidence of that.

Physics-based gameplay seems to have a bright future, as does radiant artificial life and procedural worlds, some things that need a powerful CPU to process. Those are independent of graphics

 

[Davey Cakes]

However I see nothing wrong with wishing for power as a console gamer. It's not so much about owning the most powerful machine for gaming but instead having a new machine that is powerful enough to offer a good leap in performance compared to the previous generation of hardware.

In the context of Nintendo, the Wii U does offer a good leap in performance of the Wii. Did we forget that Nintendo is basically in their own bubble?

As a fan, I have to admit that the transition from Gamecube to Wii came with sacrifices that would change things for the company forever, in terms of how it handles technological progress.

I don't enjoy when Nintendo cuts corners, but I look past it when the games they offer are still appealing to me. The leap to HD was important to me, but beyond that we'll have to see where the philosophy behind the console takes us. Whether or not the features unrelated to raw power will successfully carry the Wii U is up in the air.

 

[Saint Gregory]

Wii U seems like a sweet system for the kids and nice enough for the older crowd too.

360 has served me well and I recently bought a blazing PC. Looks like AssCreed runs fine and NGRazer is not bad too. Nintendo made good decisions for themselves. Short sighted on the lack of optical surround, but I doubt they care much. Surround players aren't their target and at least its there for those who upgrade.

I have a setup that supports LPCM 5.1 over HDMI and the DSP in the WiiU is pretty damn good actually.

I did chuckle when I heard the surround test on the pad though. How shitty to invest in getting surround sound working on a controller pad but you couldn't fork over for an optical out LOL

 

[MDX]

If not, then let me explain to you why you are completely wrong: SMT is a technique with 2 primary goals: feeding all the execution units on a core, and bridging long stalls (in the order of 100s of cycles) of one thread by performing useful work in the other(s). There can be more than 2 SMT threads per core, e.g. the Sun Niagara had 8, and Power7 as well as the new Intel Xeon Phi have 4.

Isnt that basically trying to solve the same problem with different techniques?
Whats the point of having both threading and oooe for a game console?
SMT or multi-threading will take precious space from the chip.

 

[EatinOlives]

No let me tell you why you're wrong. I can only speak for myself of course but, I am not a graphics whore by any means. But obviously I can appreciate when something looks nice, the Wii U Zelda demo looked great to me. The demo was ps360 level of visuals and there were graphics whores bashing is for looking like ps360 level. Those people are the problem, they can't appreciate something that looks solid. No.. it has to be better than ANYTHING ever released before it. That mindset is just silly and has nothing to do with playing games.

See, your main problem here is in assuming your own personal standards for what constitutes "great graphics" are the absolute across the board. Other people have a different idea for what looks "great" and what does not, and it's all a matter of personal preferences and past experiences with different hardware.

At any rate, you didn't really disprove my point. Saying these things allows you to keep being impressed by Nintendo-produced graphical fidelity but at the same time lets you comfortably look down on people wanting more and calling them "graphics whores" who care about nothing but pixels and shaders. You are clearly capable to be impressed by graphics, why exactly is it automatically silly when other people's graphical standards don't exactly match yours?

 

[Jinfash]

GPGPU is trending on twitter.

 

[tycoonheart]

I do think a few Nintendo fans need to look at the situation and stop with the , "graphics aren;t everything" statements. I think most sane people here aren't going to try and argue that the Wii U won't have some great games. But for the same fans that say graphics don't matter, you can't really say that playing a game like metroid prime or Ocarina of time when you said wow playing them a part of that didn't come from the beauty of the visuals (relatively at the time). A lot of people that criticize Nintendo do actually like their games and want them to go back when they actually pushed the industry forward tech wise.

A game can be beautiful w/o the hardware having the best gpu around.

I find NSMBU to be beautiful. Design and art style can make a game look very pretty.

I find Trine 2 to be one of the most beautiful games around. And I doubt it would push the gpu like, say, Halo 4 does.

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

I'm surprised people care about this at all. In a year it'll just be another Wii: amazing first party games and that's it.

The sad part is how that is what our expectations are for a Nintendo console these days.

$350 just to play one or two decent first party games a year is just not good enough.

 

[Koren]

But which one is Wii U - the P3 or the P4?

I know you can't compare based purely on clock speed, architecture can affect things a lot. But if wiiU CPU is closely based on Wii, which in turn was based on GameCube, then surely the architecture is also pretty ancient?

The P3/P4 discussion is not really a matter of age, it's a matter of different design choices.

P4 was trying longer pipelines to achieve higher clock speeds. Centrino/Core processors were based on an older philosophy (that originates from the old Pentium Pro if I'm not mistaken). Since the P4 never achieved the high clock speeds that were targeted at the beginning, that's the other design that finally prevailed. At least at this point of time.

 

[Keyouta]

I bought a premium unit plus a few games. I do enjoy the tablet controller but I'm not too sure yet what real benefits it's bringing to the games currently out (I have not tried ZombiU yet).

I would have liked to see Nintendo pursue motion controls in this console, with upgraded remote like controllers, and thus keeping R&D costs down, could design a more powerful system for $350. The tablet controller could be fine as an additional method of control.

Anyway, I just bought the system for Nintendo games, so I can't wait to see what they pump out come 2013. My PC does all the heavy graphics, and I may grab myself a next gen Xbox next year.

 

[bill0527]

At end of the day i have found that its still a fun system to play.

I have not been much of a Nintendo guy since the start of the GameCube era.

I loathed, absolutely fucking loathed the Wii and its waggle controls. I felt, and still do, that the tech is too simplistic and not much there for a hardcore gamer. Wii U has been different for me though. I've already spent more time playing it than i did playing the Wii during the entire life cycle of the Wii. Maybe the game pad isn't appealing to everyone, but it is to me. And at least its more of a return to a traditional controller, than that god awful remote and nun chuck.

 

[phosphor112]

that 3.4 ghz p4 gets decimated by a 1.6ghz ulv core i5

Why does it say you're banned? >_>... and you can still post?

 

[ShineALight]

I love how Nintendo fans say that "hardware and graphics don't matter".

Yet, the same people almost had heart attacks at the sight of that Xbox 360-looking Zelda tech demo.

Also, funny thing how most of Nintendo fans say "Wii U + PC". Choosing PCs over consoles for 3rd party games is a weird choice for people who don't care about graphics.

Attributing any comments or attitudes to a group like that is lazy and comes off like an attempt at provocation, it degrades the level of dialogue on this board.

It really reads like you mean to say "fanboys" and not fans. It's perfectly reasonable to be a fan of Nintendo's software and be disappointed with aspects of their hardware design, many people are. And many of those people do care about things like IQ, performance and overall graphic quality, so there's no real hypocrisy at play there. Nintendo console + PC offers maybe the most significant breadth of games in their best (or only available) versions.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

Why does it say you're banned? >_>... and you can still post?

Magic.

 

[lherre]

I want to ask (again sorry) a question to some people here.

Some of you are saying that devs doesn't have the time to accomodate/learn/etc wii u hardware and this is why ports are running from ok to poorly at launch.

My question is:

- Has been any generation without this same problem?

Developers working on ps3-x360 face the same problems changing from ps2-xbox-gc. First few time like now. But I'll say more than now with wii U. The transition from the ps2 era was HUGE at all levels of development (at least for a big amount of studios that didn't work for pc). In fact we can see all the "victims" of this generation (studios closed because they didn't manage to make the transition) They not only had to work with "HD", they had to learn new gpu capabilities (unified shaders in 360), multi core development (only naming Cell you get the point), new engines, etc.

But surprisingly we see that first games are undoubfully better than the previous generation. Why? Where is the "magic"? Bruteforce, system performance. The gap allow this first developers to put unpolished ports on this machines and they worked better because they have room to do it. In fact you all remember that first ps3 ports only used the PPE without any use of the spu's (or very small use).

So for me, time of development or the learning curve needed to use wii u efficiently is not a valid excuse to have better games than previous generation.

I'm saying wii u is a bad system? no, I think I said a lot of times that undoubfully is more powerful (in some ways) than ps360 but the difference is not big that you will see games very different than the ones we can see right now in the current machines.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

That's really my point, though. Visual feedback in a video game is important, mainly because this is primarily a visual entertainment medium. Saying we can just turn down graphics and have everything run on PS1 hardware in theory misses the point. It's neglecting the place of visual feedback in the gaming space, which isn't at all disposable.

I'd say that, if anything, this both undervalues aesthetics as a whole and draws an unrealistically large gap between aesthetics and mechanics. Aesthetics and mechanics are so closely related, so constantly feeding into each other, that ignoring even basic things like framerate and resolution when talking about how people interact with and react to games is weird to me.

I could have some super demanding PC action game with a ridiculous number of behaviorally complex enemies and completely destructible terrain all over the place and a lighting model that imposes dynamic visual impairments in specific situations and all that, but porting this to the 360 would probably force significant changes to either the game's assets, the engine's performance, or both. And either of those things are going to notably change someone's experience with a game.

All to a degree true.

Which is why I prefaced my arguments based on purely game mechanics. There's a tenuous connection between the two, but it is rarely based on pure necessity. More want than need.

 

[Camp Lo]

Magic.

Believe.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

What would you have sacrificed?

BC and Energy Efficiency

oh and yes I would have paid $399

 

[BlackJace]

Why does it say you're banned? >_>... and you can still post?

The mystery of Drinky Crow claims another one!

 

[Boss Man]

Exactly what I thought you'd say. Would you even know the hardware was "drastically underpowered" had you not seen the specs? Probably not, though I'm sure you will think otherwise. This is exactly why Nintendo doesn't release a lot of info on specs; it's irrelevant. It doesn't affect the quality of their games and it doesn't have any bearing on how the generation will pan out, sales wise. An economic, low power solution that outperforms its more "powerful" rivals is genius in any other business -- only in the world of whiny, nerdy manchildren is it an issue.

I know you're banned now, but this is just so incredibly wrong.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

Believe.

Never believe it's not so!

 

[Meelow]

The sad part is how that is what our expectations are for a Nintendo console these days.

$350 just to play one or two decent first party games a year is just not good enough.

^This, I do expect much better indie and Japanese support for Wii U then the Wii, the only developers we have to worry about is bigger western devs, other then Ubisoft and Activision.

I just don't find it fair that people are expecting another Wii when we should know anything can happen in this industry.

 

[jackal27]

Who are all these people claiming that the Wii didn't have any good 3rd party titles? What are all of these games I've been playing over the years? Sure the PS360 are pretty much ALL stellar 3rd party titles, but the Wii is no slouch either.

 

[Orayn]

Gonna get something off my chest here...

After several days of being continuously nagged by a friend about how bad the Wii U's hardware was, I lost my cool. I asked if he wanted me to smash all my Nintendo games and hardware, admit that I was playing stupid kiddie games and not having TRUE GROWN-UP FUN all these years, then swear never to touch one of their products again. It involved capslock, lots of profanity, and it was an incredibly inappropriate and immature behavior on my part. I apologized profusely for throwing a fanboy tantrum and now... I think I've got it out of my system for good.

I say this because I have a history of being bothered by this stuff. The old Orayn would be behaving REALLY poorly in this thread, but I think I've grown up a little and come to terms with the situation. I don't have to like or defend Nintendo's hardware, nor do I have to stop liking their games because *other people* don't like their hardware decisions. I'm free to make the judgment call that I want the games badly enough to shell out for the underpowered hardware, and hopefully not be mocked too much for that decision.

Feels good, man.

 

[moonbox]

Fair enough, sounds like you've put a lot of thought into this. I just wanted to offer an explanation for why it's part of the vernacular.



You just got so mad about it I thought I could soothe your rage with a little perspective.

Put your dick away.

Feels good, man.

Well done, brother.

 

[Fenderputty]

Because you can just buy something else next year, and until then nobody is forcing you to buy this thing?

If you're a huge Nintendo fan and you're disappointed for the sake of what it means for Nintendo games, fair enough - but I don't get the feeling that you are. I would argue they believe they have built the machine they feel best enables them to continue making great games at this point in time, and reach the broadest possible audience, and that they have built it around an idea they believe in.

So I need to be a huge Nintendo fan to be disappointed now? WTF is this shit. When I say I was anxiously waiting to see if Nintendo would deliver I'm being honest. I'm not happy with what's being put forth. I will buy what's coming out in a year over this AND I will voice my displeasure until then when the topic is being discussed.

 

[cyberheater]

I'm saying wii u is a bad system? no, I think I said a lot of times that undoubfully is more powerful (in some ways) than ps360 but the difference is not big that you will see games very different than the ones we can see right now in the current machines.

Sadly, this seems to be the case. At least we'll get Nintendo games in HD and hopefully with improved graphic fidelity. For a lot of us. That is worth the price of admission.

 

[P90]

Why does it say you're banned? >_>... and you can still post?

The real Drinky has gone to the great binary beyond. This Drinky is, arguably, a mod conglomerate/conspiracy.

Proof: Unless Drinky has taken computer science classes, he did not have technical knowledge worth beans back in the day.

 

[BeauRoger]

How does Assassins creed 3 on wii u compare to the other console versions? It seems pretty cpu heavy. I mean, they could never pull that off on ps3 and 360 during their respective launch windows, so i doubt the wii u is that weak if its capable of matching the "best" of this gen in its launch window. Sure, it might not be the increase people were hoping for, but who honestly imagined wii u being the best console for multiplats next gen? It was always going do its own thing, with 720 and ps4 being the go to guys for most of the mainstream games. A little extra hardware power isnt gonna change that. Might not be the best move for nintendo themselves if they wanted a piece of that pie, but thats not really our problem, we get nintendo titles no matter what.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

Um, you might as well ask now, cause that's not happening...

I'll say it when I see the new HD Zelda and the 3D Mario and not a moment before dammit!

 

[beast786]

I'll never claim that graphics don't matter. However, I will say that a fantastic art style can overcome weak hardware any day. I'll always point to games like Xenoblade, Wind Waker, or any number of the amazing 2D indie games released this generation as evidence of that.

Why cant it be both? And why dont you want both?

This is what I cant get why people make that ridiculous statement of "I don't play specs""Graphics dont matter" etc. As if the choices are mutually exclusive.

There are part of audience here who cant accept the fact that it might just be incredible for Retro studios to have the same leverage in the console as SSM or ND .

I want to see best looking Nintendo games period. I am not going to settle for crap just because they are good at art style. Nintendo has the money and history to compete with best in console.

 

[EatinOlives]

All to a degree true.

Which is why I prefaced my arguments based on purely game mechanics. There's a tenuous connection between the two, but it is rarely based on pure necessity. More want than need.

It's a balancing act for sure. Developing for gaming has been and always will be about being mindful of compromises. I just believe advancement of hardware generally means giving said developers more leeway and less compromising, and the place of graphical fidelity shouldn't be taken for granted or considered superfluous.

 

[jackal27]

I don't have to like or defend Nintendo's hardware, nor do I have to stop liking their games because *other people* don't like their hardware decisions. I'm free to make the judgment call that I want the games badly enough to shell out for the underpowered hardware, and hopefully not be mocked too much for that decision.

Feels good, man.

I like this a lot. Good job.

 

[lherre]

Sadly, this seems to be the case. At least we'll get Nintendo games in HD and hopefully with improved graphic fidelity. For a lot of us. That is worth the price of admission.

I will get a wii u sooner or later but not at launch. I like nintendo games.

 

[TrutaS]

Is there a site with good simplified explanations on how CPU's (and GPU's) differ in technology and how they have changed of the years? I google this all the time but it's too complex to pickup. Not just for the sake of understanding what these specs mean, but to make more informed opinions on console's tech.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

How does Assassins creed 3 on wii u compare to the other console versions? It seems pretty cpu heavy. I mean, they could never pull that off on ps3 and 360 during their respective launch windows, so i doubt the wii u is that weak if its capable of matching the "best" of this gen in its launch window. Sure, it might not be the increase people were hoping for, but who honestly imagined wii u being the best console for multiplats next gen? It was always going do its own thing, with 720 and ps4 being the go to guys for most of the mainstream games. A little extra hardware power isnt gonna change that. Might not be the best move for nintendo themselves if they wanted a piece of that pie, but thats not really our problem, we get nintendo titles no matter what.

It runs pretty well AFAIK. Certainly no worse than the other two console versions.