Yeeeah, and the lot of you will have us to thank for when stuff like Project Eternity, DFA, Tex Murphy, Broken Sword 5, Wasteland 2, Dead State & such are released and are potentially great games. If everyone were pessimistic know-it-alls, then these games wouldn't exist.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Was the Code Hero Kickstarter a scam? They claim it's not! But Tactical Corsets!!!
- Thread starter onlyindreams
- Start date
The fact that you sometimes dont get a return on an investment and you sometimes dont get a return on KS doesnt magically make them the same thing. If I invested in developing a game I would indeed be taking a gamble but I would also receive a return commensurate to said investment. If I KS the development of the game it is also a gamble but all I receive back is the product I essentially bought.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
I'm going to explain to you why people think this is a scam.
1) The game "required" $100,000 to complete. It raised $170,000. Interviews have suggested they're looking for external funding, meaning they materially and significantly underestimated the cost of the game.
2) The delivery date was listed as February 2012 on a project that ran in February 2012. Even being generous and assuming that February 2012 was the beta date, they're now 10 months overdue on a project that should have released near-instantly after the completion. Their "beta" release date changed to August 2012 at a specific event. It did not release there. They then announced they were readying an "alpha" release in September. The alpha build has been poorly received.
4) Numerous backers have contacted them. None have got replies since at least June or so.
5) Numerous backers have asked for refunds. None have got replies.
6) None of the non-game rewards (for example t-shirts) were sent out at all. These should have been done the second the KS ended.
Do you really think people are being prematurely judgmental here?
That's sad.
I hope the lawsuit goes through and sets a strong precedent for this bullshit. Frankly it's a bit shady how little protection KS themselves offers to backers.
djplaeskool
Member
Ahh. So you're decrying the use of the term investment because you cannot get MORE than what you put in (aka, no chance of growth).
Ok. I can groove with that.
This is the worst part of the whole thing.
Zero-Crescent
Member
And at this point, with no game to show and no updates to explain the situation, in the court of public opinion, it is Alex's responsibility to prove his innocence; to prove that he intends to either finish the game, made a good-faith attempt to spend the money responsibly, and/or intends to refund dissatisfied backers who will potentially not receive their promised rewards.
In the court of law, he will also need to have some explanations ready for some pretty big misrepresentations, namely the smurf backers allegation and the sudden switch from "beta (that they had supposedly been working on for a year)" to "prototype" and "alpha." As I'm sure programmer-GAF will attest to, the terms mean vastly different things and are NOT interchangeable, which makes it quite the material misrepresentation.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
This is quite the mess. I remember seeing this back in the day and it looked an amateur effort at best.
Hey, being judgemental is fine (and fully justified), so is being angry, and so is demanding some action. Heck, at a certain point, it sounds like even legal action becomes feasible. That said, literally making stuff up (like "the $10k pledges were done by the project creator") serves no purpose other than to spread misinformation, and this is what a lot of people are doing. Less speculation, more verified facts plz!
arglebargle
Member
this sucks for people who backed the project, but the bigger problem is that apparently some people feel the need to now paint all kickstarters with the same brush and assume they are all scams. i will gladly call myself a kickstarter defender, but i dont recall ever saying that there was no risk of this happening. in fact, in the gaming kickstarter thread there were several suspected scams exposed by the community and therefore not backed.
i could do a rundown like stump's of what i have backed, what i have already received (such as diamond trust of london), and the reasons i fully expect to receive some output on the others (i know progress is being made on the double fine adventure because i have seen documentary evidence). i wont do that because it seems some people have already made up their minds about how terrible kickstarter is and will ignore it in favor of this one piece of evidence that confirms their biases.
i could do a rundown like stump's of what i have backed, what i have already received (such as diamond trust of london), and the reasons i fully expect to receive some output on the others (i know progress is being made on the double fine adventure because i have seen documentary evidence). i wont do that because it seems some people have already made up their minds about how terrible kickstarter is and will ignore it in favor of this one piece of evidence that confirms their biases.
Weltall Zero
Member
I'm actually surprised this took so long. Well, to be fair, this is the first to have been made clearly a fraud, mostly because of its starter's inability (or unwillingness) to even pretend that he wasn't a fraud; there's bound to be lots more that simply will never come to anything.
I think this is actually a healthy and inevitable step for kickstarter. It will make backers more reasonably cautious, and will hopefully stem the tide of shady-as-hell projects. Anyone thinking this will somehow kill Kickstarter is as deluded as anyone thinking eBay is over after they get scammed for the first time. This is simply the next natural step, and it was a long time coming.
I think this is actually a healthy and inevitable step for kickstarter. It will make backers more reasonably cautious, and will hopefully stem the tide of shady-as-hell projects. Anyone thinking this will somehow kill Kickstarter is as deluded as anyone thinking eBay is over after they get scammed for the first time. This is simply the next natural step, and it was a long time coming.
onlyindreams
Banned
agreed. I was shocked anyone was pledging to it at all while something like Republique had so much trouble getting off the ground
PastorOfMuppets
Banned
This is exactly why I don't donate to Kickstarters.
You're basically donating money for someone's business venture without getting anything in return. You don't receive any equity nor is that money paid back to you. What is the incentive for me to take on the risk and just give some stranger money?
You're basically donating money for someone's business venture without getting anything in return. You don't receive any equity nor is that money paid back to you. What is the incentive for me to take on the risk and just give some stranger money?
Hah, FOR 200K we'll MAKE IT AN MMO! should have been a gigantic clue that the guy didn't know what he was doing.
You get something made that you want to see made. It's really patronage pure and simple with the same risks and incentives.
I've kickstarted DoubleFine Adventure, FTL, Dead State, and Project Eternity. I don't think any of these projects would be underway as they are right now if it were not for the Kickstarted support. That's of value to me and it's already paid off with FTL.
You get something made that you want to see made. It's really patronage pure and simple with the same risks and incentives.
I've kickstarted DoubleFine Adventure, FTL, Dead State, and Project Eternity. I don't think any of these projects would be underway as they are right now if it were not for the Kickstarted support. That's of value to me and it's already paid off with FTL.
Bog
Junior Ace
OMG Yes!
MikeE21286
Member
Yeah I can't see myself ever donating to a Kickstarter.
snoopeasystreet
Member
This seems like the fella didn't have any foresight and bit off more than he could chew. I don't think there was anything nefarious at work. That said, people aren't getting what they expected so ultimately, it doesn't really make a difference to them.
PastorOfMuppets
Banned
I look at this from a financial point of view only.
These projects are basically businesses that you're helping to fund, incurring all the risks without any of the reward. What if you ended up funding the next Angry Birds and all you had to show for it was a special edition box with a hand painted bird while the developers made billions?
The way I see it, if I'm going to have a hand in creating wealth, I should get some money for it. Otherwise, I'll wait for the release like everyone else and buy it on Steam.
This is why I stick to big name ones, or ones that are mostly done already and funding the last bits of the game. Usually I just put in the price of the game though, so I just consider it a pre-purchase for something I really want. In Star Citizen's case, it's half-retail price too.
Angry Fork
Member
The anti-kickstarter, pro-corporation crowd must be soaking their pantaloons with excitement.
Very sad/unfortunate this happened, but it doesn't discount the fact that kickstarter is a great idea for small indie people who can't get publisher support. It's like a form of direct democracy and some people taking advantage of that doesn't make the original idea pointless.
If this guy took everyone's money and ran away he will never be able to do something like this again, it will follow him the rest of his life unless he changes his name location etc. The internet never forgets. There is little incentive to commit fraud on this kind of scale when a future potential employer googles your name and finds out what you did.
There is no incentive to risk except your own interest in the idea, kickstarter relies entirely on whether or not you're willing to trust other people. If you're on board with that, use kickstarter, if not, don't. It is a collective effort where people want to help/support those with great ideas and talent who may not have the luck or connections to make it in the 'free' market.
People who commit fraud should be held responsible, but to shit on kickstarter as an idea is silly. What's needed is a rational legal policy so if this happens donators aren't punished (if there isn't one already).
Very sad/unfortunate this happened, but it doesn't discount the fact that kickstarter is a great idea for small indie people who can't get publisher support. It's like a form of direct democracy and some people taking advantage of that doesn't make the original idea pointless.
If this guy took everyone's money and ran away he will never be able to do something like this again, it will follow him the rest of his life unless he changes his name location etc. The internet never forgets. There is little incentive to commit fraud on this kind of scale when a future potential employer googles your name and finds out what you did.
There is no incentive to risk except your own interest in the idea, kickstarter relies entirely on whether or not you're willing to trust other people. If you're on board with that, use kickstarter, if not, don't. It is a collective effort where people want to help/support those with great ideas and talent who may not have the luck or connections to make it in the 'free' market.
People who commit fraud should be held responsible, but to shit on kickstarter as an idea is silly. What's needed is a rational legal policy so if this happens donators aren't punished (if there isn't one already).
That's a perfectly fair approach to take as well. For me though helping the guy who was the lead writer for Vampire:Bloodlines get enough funding to make his next game made me feel good. Dead State really is the riskiest thing I've backed but I'd still do it in a heartbeat. And hey if it turns out to be a good game and you pick it up on a Steam Sale in a few years or something then the Kickstarters will have benefited you as well.
I honestly don't understand why someone who likes videogames would be against crowdfunding for videogames. Kickstarter is wonderful.
When exactly did that happen? I remember many kickstarter "defenders" (amongst which I count myself) telling people to be cautious, and that this could and most likely will happen -- and not just once.
The thing is, it's not an issue with the model, it's an issue with the individual projects one chooses to back -- and why each should be weighed carefully before committing. Like in all other things, fools and their money are soon parted.
Yes, these types of issues always exist when money is involved. To take care before you pledge is one thing, but to mock the entire system that has provided great projects in and out of gaming to lots of people is disingenuous because of a few bad apples.
A Human Becoming
More than a Member
Glad I only gave $5 for a pre-order.
"Legal policies" aren't worth a damn if they don't match the laws of the jurisdiction they are agreed in.
See also: software EULAs.
Not a Jellyfish
but I am a sheep
Code Hero was too good to be true, a fun game that teaches you how to code.
Impossible.
Impossible.
Code Academy does a good enough job of that.
Coursera has a good course too!
It's not the first, either, I believe. Someone else might be able to fill in but I'm sure this happened before.
Especially with the fact that Ouya dev kits have shipped, iirc.
Edit: Yup. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=502120
The incentive is that you get to own/use a product that otherwise would not exist.
Investing is putting money into something you think other people would buy. Kickstarting is putting money into something you want to be able to buy.
How can you call this a scam or a fraud when they've actually delivered an alpha build of the game?
It may be an incompetently run project by people who have no idea what they're doing and are subsequently running way behind schedule.....but to say it's a fraud implies willful deception with intent to never deliver.
Dreamwriter
Member
Well, they were supposed to ship the final game in February, and as the Kickstarter was in February, that means the game should have been near complete, with almost no work left (which is basically where they said they were in their Kickstarter - in final beta stages).
Actually, they haven't shipped Ouya dev kits yet - they announced that they were still on schedule to ship them at the end of December and showed pictures of the PC board and case from the factory. It's still possible (though unlikely) that they won't ship any. And while the dev consoles are a good start, it's still only 800 or so of those 60,000 units, and those special hand-assembled prototypes, so even if they ship those 800 it's still possible that the rest will ship late or even not at all.
Not to get too technical, but that 60,000 userbase is far bigger than any other game console has ever had, considering those are 100% paid off systems over 6 months before release. At this point in the Wii U's lifetime (3 months before launch), the userbase was zero - there were preorders by this point, but those aren't sales, just "reserve me a game console in case I want to (and can afford to) buy one when it launches". Boxer8 has also been taking normal online preorders in addition to do those 60,000 units, and of course will be sold in retail stores like GameStop a couple months later.
AHA-Lambda
Member
Woah, so glad i didn't back this one now! D:
Not a Jellyfish
but I am a sheep
Code Academy does a good enough job of that.
Eh it is not a game in the sense that Code Hero was supposed to be but I do love Code Academy!
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
There are a ton of laws that apply to selling equity because people abused that system in the past. Lawyers would throw a fit if someone tried to do that on Kickstarter.
why he got banned
At least here on GAF even the more enthusiastic pro-kickstarter people always warned that Kickstarter projects can and will go wrong (even Schafer warn to that on Double Fine's own pledge). No one can assure the final quality of the released product or if it even will be released. It's a jump of faith that each one of the backers need to decide if it's worth to take. All of this was already plenty discussed when the Kickstarter craze started.
The people managing the OUYA project are real names with real histories behind them. There's no way the founders would risk their reputations on shady dealings, as they have a lot to lose. Unlike some other people.
Developers are getting theirs early. I believe those units are shipping out this month.
Developers are getting theirs early. I believe those units are shipping out this month.
GhostWriter24
Member
Is there something in the TOS that says when you donate money to one of these projects you can't legally take action if it fails?
It's sort of buy at your own risk, isn't it?
It's sort of buy at your own risk, isn't it?
There is no such clause, quite the opposite:
This is one of the steps that project creators have to go through when setting the campaign page:
Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew
Banned
This thread inspired me to create an excel sheet for all the projects that I backed.
Total backed: 21
Total Kickstarters with partial items delivered: 5
Total Kickstarters with complete items delivered: 0
Earliest estimated delivery: October 2012
Total Kickstarters with completed delivery: 0
Total backed: 21
Total Kickstarters with partial items delivered: 5
Total Kickstarters with complete items delivered: 0
Earliest estimated delivery: October 2012
Total Kickstarters with completed delivery: 0
He's just one of those people that likes to see things fail. I don't think there is anyone out there that didn't know what the deal was with Kickstarter. You can kind of tell when a kickstarter looks iffy and if not you can always google the people behind a kickstarter.
I backed 2.
Both of them completed, but both of them did so almost 6 months after their projections.
Kickstarter can work, if you know what you're getting into. I feel like most of these failing ones are people who just don't understand fiscal responsibility and just go for the money grab.
I'm sure Tim Schaffer's one will pan out as well.
No shame in saying the truth
Yup. I totally understand supporting small one-shot releases, but it's turned into Shark Tank with no equity.