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Lightning Returns: FFXIII screenshots and extended Jump Festa trailer
- Thread starter Kagari
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Rollo Tomasi
Member
Why is she wearing chaps? Not sure about this at all. I still have to finish XIII.
Except Cloud's outfit is still somewhat grounded in realism.
Square doesn't believe in equal opportunity.
Okay I have been thinking this over and I think I understand Lightning more than ever and why SE is so banking on her: She is the first female FF protagonist that is truly tough as nails, one who can handle herself instead of relying on others.
She is a warrior, not afraid to charge in with guns ablazing. From the very moment she was revealed in that tantalizing E3 reveal trailer, the message was clear: Lightning kicks ass and takes names. We see her handle a whole squad of enemies like a force of nature, slice up machines, and cut down behemoths. When the actual game came out, the first scene is of Lightning dispatching the guards on the train like clockwork. She then stands toe to toe with a gigantic machine, unafraid. She can manipulate gravity. She is not one to back away and let others drag her down.
This is a sharp contrast to all female FF protagonists before her. Let me explain:
1.FFXII's Ashe: A disposed princess with a desire to save her homeland. The game establishes fairly early however how weak she is. She needs Vossler and the resistance to protect her for two whole years and their big assault on Rabanastre ends with her fleeing in the sewers and very nearly being captured if not for the lucky timing of Vaan. In the end, this only delays the inevitable and she is indeed captured. Then, when you free her, the plot has Basch become her protector for the rest of the game, even when she becomes strong enough to make her crucial decisions. And still Basch talks about how he must protect her. Even when she succeeds in regaining her status, she talks about how much she misses Basch. Not exactly a strong as nails woman overall.
2. FFX's Yuna: She needs a whole troupe of guardians to help her reach Zanarkland. Again, she is seen as a jewel to be protected, not as someone who can stand on her own (though she does make some strides in X-2). Without her friends, I wonder how far she really would have gotten. Seymour would have probably snatched her away and become Sin like he always desired....
3. FFIX's Garnet: More hopeless than Ashe I am afraid. She begs Zidane (even though he was already planning) to kidnap her and escape her mother. She gets captured several times, loses all of her power, and worse still, goes mute after a major catastrophe. Once again it is the male protagonist that protects her and helps her grow.
4. FFVIII's Rinoa. Like Ashe in that she is a member of a resistance but she is even more inept in her projects than Ashe had been. Once again, the story dictates that a male protagonist be her knight to protect her. Without that knight, she would be doomed to become evil.
5. FFVII's Tifa and Aerith. Tifa alas spends the whole game chasing Cloud and even ditches the party when they are trying to save the world to be with Cloud's delirious body. Aerith in turn spends her life hiding and even when she shows growth, she is cut down and only gains her great strength when she becomes part of the planet.
6. FFVI's Terra/Tina and Celes. Terra's arc throughout the game is the fear of her power and her fear she can never be loved. She rather be left alone than be a hero. Celes is a traitorous knight who only finds herself and her strength thanks to Locke.
7. FFV's Lenna and Faris. Well, the first time we meet Lenna, she is also eaten by goblins. Faris masquerades as a male pirate. She may be the only closest SE ever had to a strong female character but she is never really emphasized in SE's FFV promos or even in game art.
8. FFIV's Rosa and Rydia. Rosa is madly in love with Cecil and Rydia gets eaten by a giant snake. Neither can achieve anything without Cecil's aid.
9. FF1,2, and 3: NES limitations meant there were never any fully realized characters in that era unfortunately.
In summary, Lightning is SE's first real attempt to make a strong willed, stand on her own two feet female protagonist in a Final Fantasy game. Whether you like her or not, I do believe this is why SE is so invested in her. I also see it as a welcome advance in a culture that typically treated females as inferior to males but that may be reading TOO deeply into it.
She is a warrior, not afraid to charge in with guns ablazing. From the very moment she was revealed in that tantalizing E3 reveal trailer, the message was clear: Lightning kicks ass and takes names. We see her handle a whole squad of enemies like a force of nature, slice up machines, and cut down behemoths. When the actual game came out, the first scene is of Lightning dispatching the guards on the train like clockwork. She then stands toe to toe with a gigantic machine, unafraid. She can manipulate gravity. She is not one to back away and let others drag her down.
This is a sharp contrast to all female FF protagonists before her. Let me explain:
1.FFXII's Ashe: A disposed princess with a desire to save her homeland. The game establishes fairly early however how weak she is. She needs Vossler and the resistance to protect her for two whole years and their big assault on Rabanastre ends with her fleeing in the sewers and very nearly being captured if not for the lucky timing of Vaan. In the end, this only delays the inevitable and she is indeed captured. Then, when you free her, the plot has Basch become her protector for the rest of the game, even when she becomes strong enough to make her crucial decisions. And still Basch talks about how he must protect her. Even when she succeeds in regaining her status, she talks about how much she misses Basch. Not exactly a strong as nails woman overall.
2. FFX's Yuna: She needs a whole troupe of guardians to help her reach Zanarkland. Again, she is seen as a jewel to be protected, not as someone who can stand on her own (though she does make some strides in X-2). Without her friends, I wonder how far she really would have gotten. Seymour would have probably snatched her away and become Sin like he always desired....
3. FFIX's Garnet: More hopeless than Ashe I am afraid. She begs Zidane (even though he was already planning) to kidnap her and escape her mother. She gets captured several times, loses all of her power, and worse still, goes mute after a major catastrophe. Once again it is the male protagonist that protects her and helps her grow.
4. FFVIII's Rinoa. Like Ashe in that she is a member of a resistance but she is even more inept in her projects than Ashe had been. Once again, the story dictates that a male protagonist be her knight to protect her. Without that knight, she would be doomed to become evil.
5. FFVII's Tifa and Aerith. Tifa alas spends the whole game chasing Cloud and even ditches the party when they are trying to save the world to be with Cloud's delirious body. Aerith in turn spends her life hiding and even when she shows growth, she is cut down and only gains her great strength when she becomes part of the planet.
6. FFVI's Terra/Tina and Celes. Terra's arc throughout the game is the fear of her power and her fear she can never be loved. She rather be left alone than be a hero. Celes is a traitorous knight who only finds herself and her strength thanks to Locke.
7. FFV's Lenna and Faris. Well, the first time we meet Lenna, she is also eaten by goblins. Faris masquerades as a male pirate. She may be the only closest SE ever had to a strong female character but she is never really emphasized in SE's FFV promos or even in game art.
8. FFIV's Rosa and Rydia. Rosa is madly in love with Cecil and Rydia gets eaten by a giant snake. Neither can achieve anything without Cecil's aid.
9. FF1,2, and 3: NES limitations meant there were never any fully realized characters in that era unfortunately.
In summary, Lightning is SE's first real attempt to make a strong willed, stand on her own two feet female protagonist in a Final Fantasy game. Whether you like her or not, I do believe this is why SE is so invested in her. I also see it as a welcome advance in a culture that typically treated females as inferior to males but that may be reading TOO deeply into it.
Fimbulvetr
Member
Uh, she spent those two years being one of the resistances leaders. Because taking back a country from an empire cant be anything but an organized effort, at least one would think. Its not like she spent all that time doing jack.Thoth said:
Also, she was an active participant in the attempt to assassinate Vayne. Or do you not remember:
Its also worth noting that Ashes main desire was for her personal vengeance against the Archadians; doing it for her homeland and people was a secondary goal that she used as an excuse for her obsession with gaining the power to absolutely crush them.
All of the resistance was either dead, captured, or fleeing as well. It was a tactical retreat; because sticking around to die in a battle youve clearly already lost isnt strong, its moronic. Plus, she was still fighting back as she went(see. gif).Thoth said:
Not to mention XII is, relative to XIII, a pretty grounded universe:
not a one-man-army != weak person
Along with everyone else, because they were vastly outnumbers and the Archadians have an army that isnt run by total morons.Thoth said:
Wait, wasnt Basch, the physically most imposing playable character, captured in the games prologue? Jeez, is everyone in Ivalice a vegan hippie or something? I bet they cant even do a billion backflips while brandishing their swordguns. Weak.
And? Having someone desire to keep you out of harm doesnt mean you are weak. Not to mention theres a ton of incentive to protecting a political figure; its not like he was doing it because he personally thought she was weak.Thoth said:
Hell, when the resistance tells her to sit and wait for her own protection, her first instinct is to steal a Sky Pirates airship and do everything on her own. The party only starts following her around because they force themselves on her.
From the very moment she joins the party she is making pretty much ALL of the crucial decisions.Thoth said:
She started thinking of him as a friend. Do you not like having your friends around?Thoth said:
Wait, didnt Lightning miss Serah when she went to Valhalla? Not exactly a tough as nails woman overall.
Translators Note: tough as nails means massive jerk
Basically Ashe is more of a human being, while Lightning is some weird made up archtype.
The only reason Lightning may seem to be more of a independent woman, is because she was basically made out to be female Cloud.
Her personality is that of a piece of cardboard. A strong female should not only be independent, but also well written. Also, men rely on others all the time in games like this, you can be a strong female and rely on others in the exact same way.
The only reason Lightning may seem to be more of a independent woman, is because she was basically made out to be female Cloud.
Her personality is that of a piece of cardboard. A strong female should not only be independent, but also well written. Also, men rely on others all the time in games like this, you can be a strong female and rely on others in the exact same way.
Okay, I have to disagree completely.
For starters: 1) Refia came out before Lightning, and she was definitely strong willed. 2)Rydia tells Cecil to stuff it the second he pulls some chauvenist stuff and ultimately sticks it to his "boy's only" thinking by staying onboard the ship. Oh, and she bails him out and one shots the guy who has been curb stomping him. Rydia not able to do things without Cecil's help? Bullshit.
And the reason Terra is so messed up is because she's kinda child soldier. But she doesn't just do crap with Locke's, Edgar's, or Bannon's insistence. Terra resolves her problem, both the love thing AND the not wanting to fight thing, WITHOUT a man. Celes, sure, falls in love with a boy and blah blah blah, but Terra develops a spine independent of men. And Aerith has her wits about her quite a deal more than the very sick Cloud and his not-helping-at-all girlfriend Tifa.
To sum up, you're dead wrong about Refia, Terra, and Rydia. ESPECIALLY Rydia, who TAY proves is more powerful than every other person in the game, except maybe Golbez, when her
clone army
So no, Lightning is not Square's first attempt at an independent female lead, nor an independent female. Especially since we're forgetting women like Freya, who, while motivated by a man, does the entire quest without him, his help, or him holding her hand or what have you.
There've been plenty of strong female leads and you're dead wrong about a few of the ones you mentioned.
Agree 100%.
Lightning, as a female character, is not relateable at all - at least in my opinion as a female myself. I think that's part of why I can't stand her... she's all flash and no substance. The games have tried too hard to get you to care about her and her sister complex but it just doesn't work. The result is hollow and uninteresting.
I'm more interested in believable female characters who don't fall back on stereotypes.
A few more high resolution bullshots:
DAT Armpit. The more I see it, the more I like her new dress.
CosmicGroinPull
Member
Hi-res bullshots... lol.
I certainly like the peek-a-boo aspect of it. Think it'll look better without those arm covers though.
If you cherrypick certain part of a characters's plot, of course they will look bad.
There is no magical reason SE is invested in Lightning outside of the fact they have no one else to pimp. What other characters do they have? 5 People played the Last Remnant and no one in Japan are playing Eidos' games.
She's in Dissidia and Theatrhythm simply because she was the lead in FFXIII, not because people are madly in love with her or anything like that.
You are pretty much wrong on every count about the characters above too.
I don't see how requiring a party makes a character weak since you have a party in every FF game. The reason you don't have one in LR is not because Lightning is fabulous. It's because it's a lazy B grade cash in and having a full party would require balancing and time they don't have.
Ashe wasn't weak at all. She was the one in charge of the resistance in the first place. She also just had lost her husband during her wedding. She could have ran away and started a new life under a new name but chose to save her empire instead. Throughout the game she requires the party assistance because she cannot do everything by herself just like all of the other FF protagonists needed a party to save the world.
Same is true for Yuna. She knew from the beginning that defeating sin would kill her but decided to do it anyway to save the world. There are parts in the game where she handles herself fairly well too like the part where she summon bahamut to escape from Seymour. She also escapes from the dungeon and defeat her competition all by herlsef too.
Terra's isn't weak either. She's messed up because the emperor and Kefka brainwashed her and used her as a weapon. As such she wonders about her place in the world. She was actually strong enough to wipe out complete divisions of soldiers in the first place. She eventually understands that her power can be used to protect children and love them in a way. That's called character development.
As for Celes, I'm pretty sure admitting that what you believe in the first place was wrong is being strong. Refusing to admit it would be weak. She wasn't the damsel in distress in the first place either. The part where Locke rescues her is part of an act anyway. She's also the one that brings the main team back together in the second part of the game, takes care of a sick Cid all by herself and escape from an island on a tiny raft all alone.
Rydia isn't weak either. She gets eaten by Leviathan because she was something like 5 years old. When she comes back as an adult she's the one that defeats Golbez' summoned monster and save your ass in the underworld. She's also the only summoner left in the world in the first game. In the second game she also leads a party by herself after the summoned monsters are shackled by the bad guys.
I could go on for the rest too but I'm really tired and it's late now. If you believe the characters above are weak than with the same logic Lightning should be as she is always changing her tune about Gods and destiny.
Let me reiterate that I never said any of these characters were weak. I simply said that most female characters in the series were written to be very dependent on other characters while the opposite was not quite as true. But to address some replies:
1. Refia is from a DS remake so she is technically not an original FF 3 character.
2. We are talking about original FF games, not sequels. Yuna and Rydia def. show growth at the start of the game.
3. I am not saying Terra does not have an arc here. I am saying that Terra is not initially presented as a strong willed character who could face challenges ahead of her without flinching. She is VERY powerful but is also very afraid of herself. She overcomes this masterfully by story's end but for most of the game she is a reluctant participant in the war.
4. As for Ashe, I will admit that the strong as nails comment was too far as I like her and her character. I still reply that the game keeps ramming home the point she needs protection from Vossler / Basch despite the fact she could do things for herself.
That is true but I still believe SE was going for Lightning to be a character confident enough to try to do things herself as opposed to depending on other people. She learns in her arc the need to depend on others and respect their decisions.
Femmeworth
Banned
Oh god.
Fimbulvetr
Member
How does XII keep "ramming home the point she needs protection from Vossler / Basch"?
It is unfortunately the way the plot chooses to explain Basch's role in the party.
I never really thought about it like that before. I kind of agree with this.
Those screenshots Kagari posted is dope. I love all the skin Lightning is showing too. Square knows what I like.
bye.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Also, she was an active participant in the attempt to assassinate Vayne. Or do you not remember:
Jesus Christ, her club-ho
I am immune to the "siren's" song. I only speak the truth.
Lumpy Onion
Member
It fits with Rabanastre though. It's a desert city. Place is hot. Same reason Vaan wears what he does.
And it looks sexy as hell so I am hardly complaining.
I liked Ashe but her skirt was always completely ridiculous.
It also does not make sense from an armor point of view. A lack of sense Lightning is apparently indulging in as well...
1. Remake or not, Refia existed before Lightning, and if you combine her and Ingus, you have exactly Lightning's character.
2. The sequel is only mentioned because in it the Maenad prove that Rydia is a threat of global proportions on par with Golbez. She still kicks Golbez' ass, friendzones Edge, and tells Cecil to shove his "No Girls on the Moon" attitude up his ass, and convinces Rosa to do the same and stay onboard. Rydia's strong-willed female attitude predates Lightning's by at least a decade, and since Maria and Leila are excused (particularly Leila, who, unlike Faris, did not masquerade as a man.) because hey, it was FFII, so we'll just say that while 5 year old Rydia may have depended on Cecil (because children tend to depend on adults), adult Rydia most certainly did not depend on any men, and refuted both Cecil AND Leviathan's authority.
3. Terra seems weak willed in the game's first chapters because 1)She's just come out of the Slave Crown's control and is suffering from temporary brain damage, 2)She grew up as a child soldier, and 3)Suddenly she's become very important. Once Terra gets her act together, she's as competent as the rest of the party. Note that in FF6 the men are the ones who depend on the women. Cyan needs his wife's encouragement before he's over his funk, and Setzer needs Darill's airship. Strago needs his granddaughter, and Locke needs Celes to get over Rachel. The women, by comparison, are fairly independent. Terra does not overcome her internal struggle because of Locke or Edgar, nor does Celes, nor Relm.
Neko Mimi Mode
Member
Prishe.
She would be less appealing visually though if she's fully armored. Style over practicality I say.
Oh I forgot to bring up Agrias. She literally kicked more ass than Ramza until Dark Knight Class was introduced.
And I should bring up Lise, from Secret of Mana 3, who was literally an Amazon Princess, one of 3 female leads in the game, and needed no man to help her through the game.
I liked Lightning for being rage-mode all the time, and I won't deny that her original design was also a big part of the appeal, but there really wasn't anything that original about her in the whole "independent female" realm. Especially not after XII.
And I should bring up Lise, from Secret of Mana 3, who was literally an Amazon Princess, one of 3 female leads in the game, and needed no man to help her through the game.
I liked Lightning for being rage-mode all the time, and I won't deny that her original design was also a big part of the appeal, but there really wasn't anything that original about her in the whole "independent female" realm. Especially not after XII.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Samus looks badass and awesome, all without shamelessly providing cheap fanservice. :/
Undermines her strong female archetype I reckon. Plus it doesn't seem like the type of thing Lightning's in to, she's a soldier first and foremost, making her dress up seems uncharacteristic.
You guys seem to be equating strength with physical strength/ability. Godlike powers allowing a character to beat anyone alone does NOT make for a good character let alone a good female character, it's just poorly written mary sue types. Depending on other people is not a weakness, you sound like a third rate RPG villain.
A great RPG lead character is one with emotional strength to own up to their mistakes, get past problems with other people and bring people together. Lightning does none of these things. She might not rely on anyone to help her do things, that doesnt make her strong, she just blames people for not doing things for her, she constantly blames Snow "You couldn't protect her. It's your fault she" "Serah? Listen... It's all your fault - she - " etc etc.
A great RPG lead character is one with emotional strength to own up to their mistakes, get past problems with other people and bring people together. Lightning does none of these things. She might not rely on anyone to help her do things, that doesnt make her strong, she just blames people for not doing things for her, she constantly blames Snow "You couldn't protect her. It's your fault she" "Serah? Listen... It's all your fault - she - " etc etc.
Supermanisdead
Member
Fang was a better "strong girl" than Lightning anyways u__u
Famous Lightning quotes. "Worst. Birthday. Ever."
Fang would've made for a better lead. In fact, you can take your Lightning saga and shove it, I want a Fang saga.
Fang would've made for a better lead. In fact, you can take your Lightning saga and shove it, I want a Fang saga.
I agree with that. Although her armor is a different type of armor I was thinking about when I posted the previous post.
The environments and architecture are so pieced together that it just doesn't work anywhere. Now I don't know if it is meant to be that way because of some SE story twist that makes no sense but they need to rework some things. Granted it still looks like place holder stuff or atleast I hope it is.
Too bad they destroyed her character in Other M. Or so I hear.
Lightning Returns is one huge placeholder then.
There wasn't much to destroy.
But that aura of strength is what I think they wanted Lightning to convey. As Kagari said, a 'flash', regardless of substance. I do not think any FF female are truly weak character-wise but few are as overt as Lightning's style. Just look in how in they revealed her. Toriyama could just not flesh her character out enough.
CosmicGroinPull
Member
That guy is probably a hit with the ladies.
Not the death of FF, noooo. Just a slight low from previous generations but its nothing the series can't bounce back in the next generation from unlike other franchises like Suikoden and Breath of Fire and stuff.
If SE continues to push for mind-blowing graphics that sends up the costs of development, they will destroy themselves in the end. I just don't think they're smart enough to do that since they think they have a legacy to uphold or die trying. It will likely be put on life support, held up by a skeleton crew after the FF brand is greatly diminished from grave mishandling.
idlethreats
Member
Yes, please.
I hadn't meant to equate might with a strong character by mentioning that Rydia could perform a hostile takeover of FF4's world, but rather the fact that she does not. Consider Golbez, who by rights is her equal, capable of masterfully wielding black magic and summoning (at least 1 summon anyway). Golbez is as mighty as Rydia, but he is a weak man morally, mentally, and emotionally, and so his spirit yields to Zemus'. Likewise Kain, who is a strong man falls MANY times to his own internal weakness, and as the DS version reveals, is tempted on the doorstep of Zemus' lair in the final dungeon. Zemus' power even frightens Edge in the DS version, who contemplates running from him in the final dungeon.
Rydia, on the other hand, withholds her mighty powers and is not tempted, ever, by the evil forces, demonstrating a moral strength that even Cecil lacked. TAY is notable for this, because it shows us that Cecil, even after becoming a Paladin, harbors some dark and terrible feelings inside himself. The only way that
Creator
steal her Eidolons and graft them onto amoral clones of her.
Perfo
Thirteen flew over the cuckoo's nest
Shield and sword are probably provided by the only advanced civilazation of the new world: Bhunivelze (thus Hope). The rest of her outfits reflects her persona and world: ghotic x robe x references to her costume. Stop.
Oh, and screenshots look amazing.
StoppedInTracks
Member
13-2 took me over 100 hours but I captured every possible monster just for kicks.
I *need* 13-3 to be at least 50 hours long to 100% everything.
Femmeworth
Banned
That would mean more Vanille, which would be far worse than what we have right now.
That's what Lain's going to do to her armpit?
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