TurnipFritters
Member
Some of us believe in the No Cussing Club.
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The History of (core) Shin Megami Tensei: study the origins of IV!
- Thread starter cj_iwakura
- Start date
Some of us believe in the No Cussing Club.
cj_iwakura
Member
There's a very loose thread connecting core SMT to Persona. Tamaki is from SMT If, and she's in Persona 2 as a Devil Summoner. So, Persona is in the timeline where the nuclear apocalypse didn't occur.
PlanetSmasher
Banned
Yup. In Japan, it's kind of like how for a while, Moogles and Chocobos were popping up in everything Square made as cameos. The demons (particularly Jack Frost) are a running theme, but the franchises themselves are quite divergent. It really just comes down to Atlus having a very consistent art design and a history of using the same composers and artists (Meguro and Kaneko, for example) across multiple games.
Like NeonZ said, the original Persona on PS1 was treated as sort of an MT spinoff, but the series diverged entirely by the time Persona 2 came out. It's kind of like how the Mana series started as a Final Fantasy Gaiden game before becoming its own thing with Secret of Mana.
Interestingly, Atlus' American branch seems to have come to the conclusion that Persona is strong enough on its own to not need the SMT name anymore, as both Persona 4 Golden and Persona 4 Arena lack the SMT branding entirely.
PlanetSmasher
Banned
I don't think it's really possible for any game to be set after Nocturne, timeline-wise.
cj_iwakura
Member
There is exactly one connection that I know of to SMT1&2, not really a spoiler, but just in case.
Dr. Steven, the original creator of the application, appears in IV.
And also, surprising no one,
Lucifer's involved.
Prime crotch
Banned
I thought you were here to keep things clean.
One thing I've always wondered about is the actual name. Megami Tensei as I understand it means Goddess rebirth or something along those lines. Which makes sense because the original novels include the reincarnation of izanami, and I assume the first two games based on them do as well.
But SMT means true goddess reborn, but is there anything about a goddess being reborn in any of the smt games?
It also amuses me that we have devil summoner, digital devil saga, and devil survivor. Is there something about the ds initials that atlus loves? Because it makes acronyms for these games confusing as...heck.
But SMT means true goddess reborn, but is there anything about a goddess being reborn in any of the smt games?
It also amuses me that we have devil summoner, digital devil saga, and devil survivor. Is there something about the ds initials that atlus loves? Because it makes acronyms for these games confusing as...heck.
cj_iwakura
Member
Definitely. It happens at the end of SMT1. 2 & 3, not so much.
3 does involve a goddess known as Aradia, though. She's from Wiccan lore I believe.
PlanetSmasher
Banned
There's the whole Aradia subplot in Nocturne, but it's really nothing major. That's the only thing I can think of off the top of my head.
The neutral ending restores the world to how it was before. It's also the most detailed and longest ending of Nocturne, it should be considered the good and probably also the canon ending.
Since that 'sub' plot leads to the longest ending, it's hardly not major.
Izanami was the mother of the world. She and her brother were the first beings according to Japanese mythology to discover sex. The reincarnation of the mother goddess usually refers to the heroine that accompanies the MC. In the original series she was the reincarnation of Izanami. Generally law is associated with male/partiarchal values and chaos with female/matriarchal ones. In 3 there isn't a heroine but the MC's teacher would be the female you can fight for.
RyougaSaotome
Member
I'm always up for more Shin Megami Tensei threads.
There are some really neat throwbacks to previous SMT games in IV. Especially some of the music. So many happy feelings.
There are some really neat throwbacks to previous SMT games in IV. Especially some of the music. So many happy feelings.
There's also the Adam and eve thing in smt I. Overall megami tense I I believe is just a reference to izanami from the novels and shin is just their way of saying "super" common in other sfc /SNES games.
Shin usually means new. In the opening to SMT the title is input on a computer and the word shin gets converted to three different meanings, first new, then god and finally true. Since the Japanese myth Izanami and Izanagi are replaced with Christian Adam and Eve, the true would be linked to the shift to Christian mythology.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
I blame/thank this series for warping/improving my taste in RPGs, and games in general. Yall who ain't touched it yet are in for a treat. 
Just take it with you.
Member
I think "Shin Megami Tensei" is kind of an artifact title these days, like how Baldur's Gate 2 takes place nowhere near Baldur's Gate.
Also, OP posted the SMT2 disco tune, but failed to post the best version.
Cool topic, SMT I and II's music is pretty amazing! And yeah, such an incredible series. It's the first RPG (series) since my teens that got me so engrossed in the story. SMT games excel at creating a great atmosphere. Are there even other JRPGs with a story like SMT? I love it for the darker, more mature themes than your typical JRPG.
cj_iwakura
Member
Only series that comes close is Shadow Hearts.
cj_iwakura
Member
2 not so much? Well...
Oh yeah... I thought that was from 1.
Weltall Zero
Member
I also co wrote it.
Oh, that's convenient; that way I can thank both one author of that article (my reference for the SMT's I've not played) and this topic in the same sentence. Thanks a lot, and great job!
TheDarkKnight774
Member
Good read. I only have played persona 3. What a pretty depressing rpg universe! Got to be the most grim JRPG I've heard of.
Not like the 3D models were that amazing or well-animated in Nocturne anyway. I prefer 3D models too but personally it's not that big of an issue for me with SMT. 3D dungeons add much more.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Atlus is in love with doing that (at least Atlus USA with Etrian Odysseys).
Cool, I'll check it out! It's in my backlog anyway.
transience
Member
Nice thread.
Shadow Hearts is awesome but I wouldn't compare it to SMT. It has some dark moments and some demons but it's much more character-driven than SMT. I'd recommend the series to any JRPG fan though.
Shadow Hearts is awesome but I wouldn't compare it to SMT. It has some dark moments and some demons but it's much more character-driven than SMT. I'd recommend the series to any JRPG fan though.
cj_iwakura
Member
I liken it to SMT because of the modern occult themes, and its (relative) maturity.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Thanks so much for this. IV is gonna be my first.
This pretty much only applies to the first game. With each new game, it morphed more and more into goofy. A lot like Tengai Makyou.
cj_iwakura
Member
True. When it's good it's really good, but the first is definitely the most serious.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
I'm really happy about the warm reception SMT4 is getting in this thread, I got REALLY sick of the "omg it's not 3D models" talk when some people just don't understand the amount of demons this game has, the game is FULL of content. I'm just happy the Press Turn system is back, that's going to make the battles really exciting and more tactical than Strange Journey.
I recommend everyone to check out SMT2, It has a great story and it's one of the best games in the franchise.
I recommend everyone to check out SMT2, It has a great story and it's one of the best games in the franchise.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Reading the OP's description: did the 1st protagonist really killed Yahweh? I am under the impression that Yahweh never really died, merely somewhat inconvenienced only to return later on later games.
Second protagonist. And while YHVH did die he can't be killed forever because there's a subconscious desire in the world for an ultimate authority he claims.
Also the rest of the SMT games aren't in the same continuity, exactly. Even the figures who do exist in the multiple continuities aren't the same in each iteration.
The Japanese series title translates to "Labyrinth of Yggdrasil". Etrian Odyssey was the title chosen for the English game when they ran into the Jim Henson Labyrinth trademark.
TurnipFritters
Member
I felt that SJ was the game that made the Law side seem more sympathetic.
I mean, if Mastema hadn't looked like a creeper and didn't have ominous theme music. The Sector Bosses are uniformly gross and awful and their heavy-handed messages did certainly didn't earn them any points.
Err law is really blatant about hating free will in that one and does basically nothing sympathetic in that one while chaos has that cute little demon guy follow you around and point out fairly early that humans caused this anomaly to open up and decided to invade their turf while law plays you for suckers to help them turn humans into puppets and wipe out chaos's forces completely.
It's the only time I can really accept not going neutral as a reasonable goal in the mainline series. Neutral path is just sorta there in SJ while in 1,2 and 3 it is clearly the best option.
It's the only time I can really accept not going neutral as a reasonable goal in the mainline series. Neutral path is just sorta there in SJ while in 1,2 and 3 it is clearly the best option.
Not really.
The original Megami Tensei referred to the reincarnation of Izanami (and Izanagi, actually). These two gods incorporate two myths which have equivalents in Christiantity. World creation and discovery of sex/first love (Adam and Eve).
World creation is still a big theme in SMT. The world gets destroyed in an apocalypse (it even gets pregnant in SMT3) and you have to create a new one.
Love is also still a theme in SMT. That part usually isn't developed beyond the stage of having the hero be accompanied by some kind of heroine but it still is implied to be linked to the process of creating a new world.
In the opening of SMT the original title, Digital Devil Story, is made to be clear to be the same word as Megami Tensei. As in, someone enters Digital Devil Story on a computer, hits space to convert that to kanji and it changes into Megami Tensei. So both the digital devil story and the megami tensei are the same kind of thing.
When Nakajima wrote the devil summoning program, he basically has sex with his computer. He recreates the miracle of birth with his coding wizardry and the devils are his children. That is the digital devil story of world creation (really the game and its population). In the SMT universe Steven takes Nakajima's place as creator of the devil summoning program. He is the avatar of the Atlus devs, as Nakajima was the avatar of the novel's author Nishitani.
Then there is Nakajima being a reincarnation of Izanagi and finding love with the reincarnation of Izanami. Basically the "have sex, create world" myth is repeated in every generation by a man and a woman. That is the megami tensei.
TurnipFritters
Member
Mastema saves you the Mithra's Jail. You know, the place where the Chaos Representative Mithra was doing horrific experiments on members of the Blue Elf (or whatever Zelenin's ship was), torturing them until they turned into literal monsters. He helps you on many other occasions. Meanwhile, all of the other demons except for Buggaboo try to murder the h*ck out of you while pontificating about how humans are bad.
Mankind didn't invade the Schwarzwelt until it started rapidly expanding and consuming Antarctica.
I'm not saying that Law is The Way To Go. What I am saying is that it in Strange Journey it takes far, far longer for them to show their jerk faces than it does for the Chaos dudes, who are pretty much gross jerk faces from the start.
RyougaSaotome
Member
I certainly think so. It's my current GOTY.
Nocturne was one of the best games I played that had a very intriguing atmosphere, and the different philosophical choices in the game were pretty interesting. The character designs nu Kaneko are one of my favorites, its so unfortunate that he's not returning as a character designer in IV, and the one replacing him has very generic designs.
Strange Journey was tactical in different ways; exploiting enemy weaknesses doesn't even do you any good if you don't build your team correctly. It also implemented the sword/gun MC seen in the Summoner games, dunno if any of the mainline entries did that as I've only played Nocturne.
SpaceBridge
Member
Not only that, but the games UI, art direction and aesthetic look fantastic.
SMT1 and 2 have sword/gun. Demon co-op is silly because enemies can't take advantage of it (thus no risk), and all you really get out of it is a single extra attack with power modified by the number of same-alignment party members. Often it makes more sense to forego the ability to perform a demon co-op attack using all of your demons because demons that don't match your alignment would be better overall regardless. There's definitely no single "correct" way to build a team.