What I mean is that if you have three demons of the three separate alignments in your party, exploiting weaknesses practically does nothing. I prefer press-turn, but still liked SJ's system.
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The History of (core) Shin Megami Tensei: study the origins of IV!
- Thread starter cj_iwakura
- Start date
Well if your party is all the same alignment and you can attack the enemy's weakness with all four members then that's 8 attacks. You can't do more actions per round with press turn either. True, it is a pure bonus for your own party without any risks. It still isn't as versatile as press turn, so it is something new to learn and consider, and nerfed compared to Nocturne.
It definitely makes you more conscious of your demons' alignments and gives you a reason to build 'pure' alignment parties, even though you still have other options to create powerful combinations, like teams of two alignments with two member for each one. It also encourages development of closed group dynamics, complete with the negative implications they might have in terms of social behavior.
And if you rely on group attacks, then the last boss with her send all demons of one alignment back to the stock will force you to change strategy late in the game. The last boss is really the one where I wanted press turn back because then it could have been won by strategy rather than by raising your level.
SMT4 on the other hand lacks such a boss that literally has every type of attack imaginable at its disposable. Make me strong again but make the enemies weaker than in both 3 and SJ. Really, if you reuse a system you have to make the follow up more difficult, not easier, but what about new players? That's the dilemma Atlus faced with returning to press turn.
cj_iwakura
Member
Does SMTIV have sword/gun? I never thought to check.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Then you make an alignment-changing ethical choice in a conversation and...there's no co-op.
Then enemy demons exploit your weakness like Aenea said and...there's no co-op.
Then you fuse up some new demon duders and...there's no co-op.
Then you get some powerful casters and...there's little damage from co-op.
And when this happens, nothing? Compeletely safe to abandon half-way in. Flaccid strategical value.
Yes. Im pretty sure one of your stats affect gun damage. Someone correct me if im wrong.
I liked battle system and encounters though the dungeon design gets pretty annoying about half way through.
If you're coming from P3P expecting the story to drive you forward, you'll probably be disappointed.
cj_iwakura
Member
On the bright side, Kaneko art design.
I think Mastema's static portrait conveys more than all the variable ones in Devil Survivor.
My personal favorite track from mainline SMT.
After finally getting Innocent Sin and Soul Hackers, I wonder if there will be a chance that Atlus will revisit SMT I&II. They're the only unlocalized Megaten games left I would love to get the chance to play. I know the fan-translations for the SNES versions are out there, but playing through them feels rough especially with the interface which feels clunky for me. Guess I'm just too used with modern conveniences with this kind of stuff.
TurnipFritters
Member
Yes. There's now a Tech stat that governs your gun damage plus the damage you deal with all physical skills. It kind of makes the Strength worthless.
Before SMT3 came out, they ported SMT1, 2 and if... to the PS1 as part of a build up. For SMT4, they ported them to iOS. And released them on the NA store. And left them in Japanese. I would not anticipate them revisiting those games in any meaningful way. (Meaningful includes "in English")
cj_iwakura
Member
If they had any sense(JP included), they'd port 1&2 to the (3?)DS and release them that way as SMT Origins.
If only the fan translation patch was also made for the PS1 and/or GBA ports...
When Nintedo showed the list of games being developed for the 3DS during its reveal, and then saw Atlus, I was hoping for this too. But then, we eventually got Soul Hackers and SMTIV which I am more than satisfied with. Still hoping for a new version though.
Fimbulvetr
Member
cj_iwakura said:Also,Lucifer cross-dressing.
I don't get it either.
SJ kinda has a Matriarchy vs Patriarchy thing going on, with the forces of Chaos representing the former(the most powerful chaos demon is literally named "MA" for goodness sakes) and the forces of Law representing the latter. Being one of the bigger Chaos leaders, it'd make sense that Lucifer would take on a female form this time around.
I feel sorry for you having to play P3P
No game deserves the treatment it got
P3 FES is where it was at
SJ is good
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
I enjoyed P3P a lot more than P3FES, then again I played it after FES. The Female route and the fact that the game didn't waste my time was fantastic.
SJ is good but it dragged on at the very end.
Ehh female route is superfluous and I just can't get past the gimping of cutscenes and exploration.
RyougaSaotome
Member
It does in fact have sword and gun.
Though I turned my MC into a magic beast of awesome, so I never upgraded my weapons that often, save for when I got something cool as loot.
IrishNinja
Member
awesome! cj's great at these and i totally wanna know more about this series, so
WELP guess ill bookmark & check back later, haha
WELP guess ill bookmark & check back later, haha
I have a question to all the Megaten specialists. Is there really a continuity in the Megaten/Amala Universe ? Is there a reason to play the Shin Megami Tensei in order ? Same for the Persona games ?
You see, I have this friend called OCD, well between you and me I think he is just a fucker but hey, so I have a hard time deciding if I should play whatever game I feel like to play or take the historic route.
I have seen some pic linking most of the Megaten games, but is it a shared opinion and is it really important ?
You see, I have this friend called OCD, well between you and me I think he is just a fucker but hey, so I have a hard time deciding if I should play whatever game I feel like to play or take the historic route.
I have seen some pic linking most of the Megaten games, but is it a shared opinion and is it really important ?
cj_iwakura
Member
Not really. SMT1/2 are directly connected, and there's some throwbacks in Nocturne, but that's about it.
Krelian91
Member
The informations here are the closest thing there are to a greater SMT timeline, but it's also a huge mess: http://atlus.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4373
If I were you, I would just play the game that looks most fun to you, or if you can't decide and want to play them all regardless just follow the release order, you will enjoy more the innovations of later games.
Law was always linked to patriarchy and chaos to matriarchy, as I pointed out earlier.
Law is the nome de pere, YHVH, that should not be spoken out loud. Law is what men came up to enforce their claim to power, historically. The monotheistic religions and absolute rulers rely on law.
Chaos is linked to Gaia, the mother earth, nature being chaotic and not governed by man made laws. Many of the gaia leaders are also goddesses, as opposed to the male YHVH. Earlier religion as Japanese Shinto was often shamanistic and allowed women to have power over their group.
Messiah and Gaia are two apporaches to religion and belief, one more easily utilized by men and the other by women.
Just take it with you.
Member
Even though I already played the fan translations of SMT 1 & 2, I would love to have a collection of those two plus If... released on, say, the 3DS. I imagine that the costs of translation and localization wouldn't make it financially viable, though.
cj_iwakura
Member
There's already two very good fan translations, but past instances have shown they tend to redo it themselves. And I doubt it would be that costly, SMT1&2 have no VA.
Dragon1893
Member
Just thinking about Nocturne gives me goosebumps. What a game, that oppresive atmosphere gets me every time, impeccable art direction.
Though minimalistic, the story is great, I really love the concept of
That ending where
Though minimalistic, the story is great, I really love the concept of
a handful of survivors getting the chance of shaping the world according to their ideals.
you don't fight the final boss because he doesn't consider you worthy is so awesome, my brother got that one and was like "WTF?!" lol
Ok so I can safely go SMT IV without the fear of missing some optional but huge backstory ?
To this day I have just played Persona 1 and Persona 3, so I've got a lot to catch up and my fucking mind was messing with my preferred playing order, which is the very complex "the ones that interests me more first" ;-)
So if I understood correctly, apart from the direct link between SMT I&II which I was aware of, the most continuity I will miss playing what I want when I want is some nods ? And even then, the Megaten universe being a multiverse, continuity is relative.
Am I right here ? or am I right ? let's kill my ocd with fire ( '°-°)
Evidently if it's not the case, feel free to correct me.
cj_iwakura
Member
Yep, spot-on. Well, there's one character from SMT1/2 in 4(who wasn't even in Nocturne!), but it seems to be more a nice throwback than a connection.
Dr. Steven.
If I have money leftover later on this year, I'll try to track it down. Somanygames.
SMTIII is Nocturne, right?
Yes.
I just realized that there probably aren't any alignment guides out yet for SMT4 are there? You'd think I'd have a handle on Megaten logic after beating so many but I invariably end up making really dumb choices unless I've got a spoiler free guide by my side. How am I gonna know what it takes to go Neutral .... the downside of a rapid US release!
Well now I can never play Chaos again
Why not? Though I don't get how anyone can play Law in any SMT.
You don't have a choice but Tatsuya in P2 is kind of a law hero. Jun chaos, obviously.
cj_iwakura
Member
Depends on the game. I liked Mastema, even though
he eventually brainwashes the entire crew, but his first impression was good.
Probably the best Law posse are SMT Imagine's Arcadian Messians.
Fimbulvetr
Member
True enough. I guess it's more apt to say that SJ seemed emphasize that point more.
He was a pathological liar who buttered people up so he could manipulate them.
No duh he made a good first impression.
Just take it with you.
Member
Well, I wouldn't want to live under either, but Law do oftentimes seem to go out of their way to be supercilious dicks.
cj_iwakura
Member
The first one is very much like a core game in tone.
cj_iwakura
Member
So I took some pictures of If's amazing shop design, since I'm playing it in preparation for IV.
Tamaki & Eriko represent!
Tamaki & Eriko represent!
Pierre Levegh
Member
Has anyone played SMT IV using a circle pad pro? I know it's not necessary but I'm curious if it recognizes it at all. Maybe just duplicating the left stick?
They did get away from this a bit with SJ as they made the chaos hero an American and in SMT4 the rule of the strong is clearly linked to financial power, so chaos is also associable with capitalism even, but in the early games law being negatively portrayed has a lot to do with a certain anti-Westernism.
On an abstract level law is obeying the law for the sake of it and chaos results in rule of the strong so neutrality is the escape from falling in either trap but in each individual SMT these concepts might be concretely linked to certain manifestations. SMT with its restaging of the WWII nuclear bombing, of Tokyo this time but again by the Americans, which already featured in MT2 by the way, emphasizes these associations.
Like DQ's Horii, Nishitani, the author of the novels is clearly pro-Western culture, even though he creates a modern myth based on old Japanese mythology. The devs at Atlus at the time favored Lucifer as an alternative to the full embracing of Westernized Japan, where everything Western was considered right just because Japan had lost the war.
There was a good ending in MT2 where the demons disappeared again and a bad one where the Messiah creates the 1000 year reign in which only the strong survive. So the negative aspect of later chaos was attributed to law as well.
Okada brought a more balanced viewpoint in SMT and had three endings instead of two and neutral not as clearly marked as the good one, so as to not impose his view on players too much even though he usually comments on neutral being the best approach in interviews.
In Persona 2, Satomi returned to the pro-Western and pro-law viewpoint of Nishitani and reveals part of the chaos narrative as revisionism. Wanting to stay true to your heritage and identity is not a bad thing but you obviously have to face historical facts as well.
In recent games they have been exploring the notions of law and chaos in all kinds of different contexts and the constant is simply that the extremism of the different choices for recreating the world is what causes problems.
Because Law knows it is right and that degenerates deserve to be hung on a cross
The cross is more a symbol of sacrifice. Law is also the system in which the individual has to submit to the rules of the group, sacrifice their own interest for the common interest.
Whereas in chaos the individual can assert itself by proving its strength and retains its freedom that way.
cj_iwakura
Member
There isn't much to spoil. It's a very minimalist plot, and it's still widely regarded as the best in the series, even after IV's release. The few plot twists it does have are best experienced in game.
If you still insist, let me know, but I strongly discourage it.
Go ahead and spill them. I won't be able to play this anytime soon anyhow.