Arc Christelle
Member
Out of curiosity, what would you like to see from those characters? Personality wise, character wise. What's real to you?
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Why does it seem like people have something against sex appeal?
- Thread starter Arc Christelle
- Start date
Out of curiosity, what would you like to see from those characters? Personality wise, character wise. What's real to you?
MHWilliams
Member
We are all a part of the culture. If you want change, ask for it, don't just stay quiet. More voices and actions lead to those changes you speak of. That's been proven time and time again.
In addition, you can celebrate the good and ask for change in the bad at the same time. We are not binary beings. We can do more than one thing at a time.
To me it looks like pseudo white knighting issue.
Oversexualization in games is used because this is what MEN like. They are main target and i am pretty sure most of MEN like beautiful women in skimpy wear.
If you want to start talking about this issue you need to first start with issue WHY there are only beautiful people in games. Especially WOMEN. The reason is same as above and skimpy wear problem is just extension of that problem.
There is no medium book, movie, games or whatever where WOMEN AND MEN were treated realistic in therms of their look. James Bond is always beautiful for women same as his girls to men. Only beautiful actors mostly reach star status.
If game makers would include only realistic looking women which means most of them would be fat dwarves in their 30-40-50 and so on and realistic looking men which means ton of them having additional belly "muscle" most of people would enjoy less games.
MEN like boobs, tits and so on. This is their nature as males. Same as girls liking hot men.
If you want to fight it DO IT. Just don't buy that game and if you will be taken to focus testing on some game just say it look bad to you.
Reason why i said it is PSEUDO white knighting issue is that most of debate is driven by MEN who will after hours fap to their porn stash.
This debate for me is like debate going on about fashion models and why fashion models needs to be beautiful or wear fancy clothes where most of us are fugly and won't wear nice clothes all time.
Oversexualization in games is used because this is what MEN like. They are main target and i am pretty sure most of MEN like beautiful women in skimpy wear.
If you want to start talking about this issue you need to first start with issue WHY there are only beautiful people in games. Especially WOMEN. The reason is same as above and skimpy wear problem is just extension of that problem.
There is no medium book, movie, games or whatever where WOMEN AND MEN were treated realistic in therms of their look. James Bond is always beautiful for women same as his girls to men. Only beautiful actors mostly reach star status.
If game makers would include only realistic looking women which means most of them would be fat dwarves in their 30-40-50 and so on and realistic looking men which means ton of them having additional belly "muscle" most of people would enjoy less games.
MEN like boobs, tits and so on. This is their nature as males. Same as girls liking hot men.
If you want to fight it DO IT. Just don't buy that game and if you will be taken to focus testing on some game just say it look bad to you.
Reason why i said it is PSEUDO white knighting issue is that most of debate is driven by MEN who will after hours fap to their porn stash.
This debate for me is like debate going on about fashion models and why fashion models needs to be beautiful or wear fancy clothes where most of us are fugly and won't wear nice clothes all time.
Necromanti
Member
A character can be designed to have sex appeal without it being something obtrusive or central to the character. It would be nice to more female characters that didn't default to needing to show more skin than usual, for example.
But it's not like I mind it for merely existing. It helps for it to make sense or serve some sort of utility for the character, but even then, it can seem contrived. That doesn't necessarily stop me from enjoying a character.
I doubt a lot of games are assuming that these women are such brilliant fighters that armor is beneath them.
One of my favorite designs is probably Zelda.
Being a damsel-in-distress doesn't mean that they cannot be designed less obtrusively, though.
So in short, neither sexualized female characters or those with some abstract "sex appeal" need to be inherently flawed, even if they can be a bit redundant and boring. Some of them are even designed by women (although that, by itself, doesn't really mean anything). One of my favorite characters is Samus, despite her recent wave of sexualization as Zero Suit Samus. While the fact that she's a woman behind the suit may not really mean much in terms of most of the games, it's still...nice to have a bad-ass, stoic woman who is fully-armored. It's easy for a female character to fall into the somewhat lazy trope of strong and sexy, though.
When they don't exist for the mere purpose of titillation or as some bizarre sex object, they can be made into interesting characters without needing to be made androgynous. I'm all for more diverse and less-sexualized female characters, and I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting that--we clearly have enough of the other alternatives as it is. Sometimes the designs can reflect issues in the industry, the culture they arose from, or even more progressive thinking and taking a page from the perspective of someone else.
I'd say the number of gross offenders are lessening, however, and that there's more of a backlash these days as feminism is becoming slowly but steadily more accepted in the industry. I'm sure very few people actively seek to objectify or cheapen women through female characters--rather being a product of their environments--so I am mildly optimistic. I would also like to see more minorities in games, but that's another matter. I would think it would be cool to have more characters designed by women.
But it's not like I mind it for merely existing. It helps for it to make sense or serve some sort of utility for the character, but even then, it can seem contrived. That doesn't necessarily stop me from enjoying a character.
Bayonetta was designed by a woman, and reminds me of a fashion model. While some parts of the game are eye-roll inducing (like some of the dance scenes), her sexuality doesn't seem too out of line with her character. She's playful, witty, and in charge of her own sexuality, making her a bit more than a vehicle for male desire.
We have characters like Alex from Eternal Darkness who is obviously showing skin, but despite having "sex appeal", she is never sexualized as a character, and she's not wearing anything outlandish.
I really love the artstyle from Odin Sphere. Velvet on the left is obviously sexualized in her design and her art, but outside of that, that's not really central to her character. I almost like her Little Red Riding Hood/fortune teller-esque outfit. I am more partial to Gwendolyn on the right, even though one may wonder why a warrior princess would have so many exposed sections. (Mobility? All the other valkyries wear the same armor.) It doesn't make a lot of sense, but it's not terrible, even though the male characters are a lot more armor-clad. (They are still pretty bad-ass.)
I love Lenneth's design. It evokes a strong sense of femininity, yet still provides her above-average protection (although one may wonder what utility her skirt serves, which can be forgivable given that she is a goddess). She does it without needing to show off a lot of skin.
I doubt a lot of games are assuming that these women are such brilliant fighters that armor is beneath them.
One of my favorite designs is probably Zelda.
She is obviously a woman, but her sex isn't at the forefront of her character. She is clearly powerful (although I wish the games did a better job at making her seem less weak), and I always liked the subversion of her dress as Shiek rather than always being in need of rescuing.
Being a damsel-in-distress doesn't mean that they cannot be designed less obtrusively, though.
So in short, neither sexualized female characters or those with some abstract "sex appeal" need to be inherently flawed, even if they can be a bit redundant and boring. Some of them are even designed by women (although that, by itself, doesn't really mean anything). One of my favorite characters is Samus, despite her recent wave of sexualization as Zero Suit Samus. While the fact that she's a woman behind the suit may not really mean much in terms of most of the games, it's still...nice to have a bad-ass, stoic woman who is fully-armored. It's easy for a female character to fall into the somewhat lazy trope of strong and sexy, though.
When they don't exist for the mere purpose of titillation or as some bizarre sex object, they can be made into interesting characters without needing to be made androgynous. I'm all for more diverse and less-sexualized female characters, and I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting that--we clearly have enough of the other alternatives as it is. Sometimes the designs can reflect issues in the industry, the culture they arose from, or even more progressive thinking and taking a page from the perspective of someone else.
I'd say the number of gross offenders are lessening, however, and that there's more of a backlash these days as feminism is becoming slowly but steadily more accepted in the industry. I'm sure very few people actively seek to objectify or cheapen women through female characters--rather being a product of their environments--so I am mildly optimistic. I would also like to see more minorities in games, but that's another matter. I would think it would be cool to have more characters designed by women.
Arc Christelle
Member
Bad....... stop. Please try to be respectful to the other contributors of the thread. And I'm sure we can do better than labels and generalizations.
"stop discussing the issue you're bringing light to an actual problem but i don't want to admit it so here are several strawmen"
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
I don't see a problem with asking for some change.
We'll still get our Dead or Alive's/Senran Kagura's/etc.
Pretty sure this is more towards the casual treatment of women in games (in general not towards a specific genre) where they typically get shafted in the character department and are more likely to be seen/presented as eye candy versus the other guys in the same games who get stuff done and are capable/exist as something beyond curves and cleavage/etc.
We'll still get our Dead or Alive's/Senran Kagura's/etc.
Pretty sure this is more towards the casual treatment of women in games (in general not towards a specific genre) where they typically get shafted in the character department and are more likely to be seen/presented as eye candy versus the other guys in the same games who get stuff done and are capable/exist as something beyond curves and cleavage/etc.
A lot of the posters in this thread are women, so it doesn't help to erase our presence in the discussion. As for "pseudo white knights", is really that hard to believe that some men might want more diverse character designs too? Who cares if they then go to fap to their porn stash or shocker, go have sex with their girlfriends. No one who's arguing for more diverse representations of women is trying to portray themselves as somehow above sex and everyone else as just some sort of pervert. You can like sex, hell you can like sexy women, and still ask: "Can we have more variety in the visual designs for women that don't revolve around looking sexy?"
And as has been mentioned before, this is a discussion that goes beyond just video games and happens in every medium.
Hoya Destroyer
Member
Would the girl in my avatar be as much fun to use in DoA5 if she wasnt wearing something as awesome as that silver swimsuit? I would say no.
Video games need more sex and nudity, not less.
Video games need more sex and nudity, not less.
This is a great post and serves to help people understand how overtly and unneccesary sexualization serves to impoverish us to greater and more nuanced forms of characters in our gaming media.
I don't have a problem with sex appeal, except when the devs/ publishers are trying to defend it with reasons that is just bull (DOA5 "I am a fighter", releases a majority of DLC costumes that speak otherwise, but at least they shut up about this tag line soon enough) , or when they are making a character that is not supposed to be "sexed up" but they sexed her up anyway cause people like to have fantasies on such character anyway (LRFF13 I'm looking at you).
Lol. Maybe read some books without pictures some times.
I'm all for sex appeal. Although it can be pretty subjective I think when it's done well it can help make a character visually memorable and unique.
The good? My girl Cassandra.
And Maya from Borderlands 2 and Sully from FE: Awakening
Imo, the appeal of the face is the big factor.
Too lazy to look for bad but I'd say a bad approach is when a character's entire design (their personality, attire, etc) is based on sex. That irks me a bit.
thesolidshark
Member
Was there a point where Team Ninja defended DLC costumes in DOA5 with the game's tagline? Serious question.
I'd think the "I'm a Fighter" tagline went more toward how the FG community accepted part 5 as a better fighting game by comparison to 3 and 4.
Cyber Caesar
Member
Culture has turned us into sex addicts by design. The way we film the female body to music and frame it with romantic language has hacked the mammalian brain. The naked hunter gatherer societies don't view body parts the same way we do.
PezDispenser
Banned
Many people see it as a cheap marketing ploy, which it definitely can be.
They didn't, that's why I said they stopped using that tag line for their own good.
thesolidshark
Member
I don't think the DLC costumes make the characters wearing them not fighters.
Oh yes, because books are clean.
When you read a fantasy book sexy desciptions are ok but in games suddenly elf in skimpy outfit is wrong.
We are just used to books and this is why we consider books mature medium.
Because books can talk freely about almost anything and almost no one will rise a brow. You can have a book about protagonist raping women and it can be awarded trophies. Do game about same thing and you will get ban for sales.
Games will reach maturity when you will be able to buy any game and its creators will be free to do anything with their game.
Let the consumers be judges. If consumers want boobs its their choice, if public will not like oversexualization then games will change because devs will not make money on something public don't like.
Its best to put devs on spotlight of this issue and blame them for this when in reality gamers are main reason for this.
When gamer will say "i like boobs" no one will argue with him, why is that ? Why people have no problem with someone liking boobs and when some dev include boobs in his game for people liking boobs it creates issue.
It is good that people have many opinions. Some may like boobs some not but buying gaame which involves themes you don't like is mental.
There are naturally scenes in ganes that are cringe worthy like heavy rain sex scene that is out of place and i can see why people have issues with this.
But when i see people arguing about boobs in Soul Calibur to me it looks like debate if porm is too porn and even better is when people buy it and vote yes for oversexualization withuheir wallet.
Simple best way to stop with oversexualization is to vote with your wallet.
There's people who are no doubt legitimately consistent about sexual content being a problem for them in games. On the other hand there's what I call the 'sex card'. Basically most of us come from social backgrounds where sex appeal is kind of a weird taboo, it's there but it's not, we choose to either notice or ignore it in the most schizophrenic manner. Calling it out is literally the easiest way to shit on a game you don't like these days, juvenile, cheap, desperate, lazy, not-a-serious-game, 'doesn't make sense for the character/game', LOLJAPAN - it's a kind of scapegoat for games that people don't like or an excuse for not playing it while of course turning a blind eye when it's convenient. The subject matter gets emotions on high on both ends, you're more or less calling people a sexual deviant of sorts, like calling them a racist, or a pedophile, even the implication is enough to get a push back. We see equivalences of sexual content being made for horny teenage males in this very thread, when from my experience they usually don't even notice this stuff, they're more concerned with expressing their own male fantasy. Even playing female characters or buying games with a focus on them still draws eyes from my friends in my 20's of the 'Are you a fucking faggot?' kind.
It's a hard topic to discuss with so many angles you can take, but I don't think sexual content in games is any kind of problem whatsoever. I do want to see a progression by developers to actually accommodate everyone with sexually appealing male characters if they're going to go down the route of appealing in a sexual nature.
That recent RPS blowup about MOBAs was ridiculous with so many people flatout in denial about the sexually charged nature of female characters especially in comparison to the male character on offer, they weren't even willing to concede that fact, instead resorting to silly false equivalences or straw men. Blizzard do not have any obligation to change their designs but the nature of MOBA character designs being hetero male driven is something people cannot deny.
Actually I guess I do have a problem in a manner of speaking, by that I mean people who are unwilling to say 'it is what it is and that's okay' on the push-back end. It's frustrating for everyone that we can't be honest about the subject.
It's a hard topic to discuss with so many angles you can take, but I don't think sexual content in games is any kind of problem whatsoever. I do want to see a progression by developers to actually accommodate everyone with sexually appealing male characters if they're going to go down the route of appealing in a sexual nature.
That recent RPS blowup about MOBAs was ridiculous with so many people flatout in denial about the sexually charged nature of female characters especially in comparison to the male character on offer, they weren't even willing to concede that fact, instead resorting to silly false equivalences or straw men. Blizzard do not have any obligation to change their designs but the nature of MOBA character designs being hetero male driven is something people cannot deny.
Actually I guess I do have a problem in a manner of speaking, by that I mean people who are unwilling to say 'it is what it is and that's okay' on the push-back end. It's frustrating for everyone that we can't be honest about the subject.
Liabe Brave
Member
Twaddle. Specific sexual cues can be linked to desire by culture, and are thus variable across time and space. But the urges to which they attach are universal. If you read any ethnographic studies, you'll find that even hunter-gatherer males and females speak with desire about curves and muscles and genitals. (I'm going to ignore that it's quite misleading to oppose "culture" and "naked hunter-gatherer societies" in the first place.)Far from heightening and releasing sexual expression, culture is more likely to restrict or channel it.
Coreda
Member
I feel the points in your post are trying to re-word opinions into how you see the other side of the discussion, which is not accurate at all. I'm not sure if you've read through the thread much, but there are some good posts.
No one here is arguing for females to look plain and ordinary in games, or to lack sexuality. Many posters seem to think the discussion is that sexy = objectification. Nope. Make more females with better character and agency. There's a difference between a female choosing to be sexy and a doll made up with revealing clothes.
There's nothing wrong with beauty, and the human body can be a beautiful thing, but hopefully as gaming matures there will be more space for more interesting and awesome female characters beyond just their appearance.
No, i did read through whole thread.
Problem with sex appel is connected to sexualization debate because sexappeal is just word used to describe "tasteful" sexualization of character. Like suddenly changing character attire from bikini to nice dress change character meaning. No it doesn't change that character in skimpy bikini and nice dress can be same character wise. It tell more about our tastes rather than it sets what is sexualization or not.
People seems to fight delusional ethic war with nature of human.
Books didn't won that war, movies either and i am sure as hell games won't be different.
If people want to change industry they should vote with their wallet.
The Last of Us had non oversexualized theme and where are those 20mln sales to show anyone "look!!! no boobs ! and it sold 20mln !! we should fallow that theme"
Main AAA industry game focus is male. Because mostly males play those AAA games. Women do play games but their choice of games is mostly different and it isn't different from movies or books. Men have their own games, movies, books same as women have their own different tastes for those mediums. That is only natural.
To change AAA gaming industry you need:
1st. Gaming community where women will actively buy and play games from AAA industry
2nd. Women devs in much much much greater scale than now. Most of the time now dev is male.
Without above two things done we are looking at situation where sheep is trying to tell wolf to change its nature and be vegetarian. Talking won't do jack a thing unless someone either will stop buying games with sexualized themes or start buying games with non sexualized themes.
DEVS are least of people who should be on spotlight of this issue since they are the ones who put money, work and their life on line. Asking them to change things because you don't like it is hypocritical if you will be supporting games with such themes or won't buying games that do not have those themes.
Debate over if sexualization is even a problem is whole other thing from it.
Sure better to point what i don't like in someone post and add nothing to discussion myself.
/s
I think simply we are victim of our small own world. We act like Call of Duty, God of War, Gran Turismo, Dragon Age, Skyrim or Persona is GAMING itself where games like Farm Ville, cooking mama, mobile games, facebook games and so on ARE NOT GAMING.
Our AAA industry is just mainly male but whole gaming is not. We are essentially trying to change male spectrum of games to be somewhat more metrosexual.
For every sexualized game like Sould Calibur there is Cooking Mama. There is wide spectrum of games and people are fighting ehtic war with playboy like spectrum of it.
ExFalsoQuodlibet
Member
Since the thread is about sex appeal, a less relevant topic, and not the disastrous machismo in videogames industry, that is much more important, I'll post my personal issues with the topic.
I'm male, but for what I know girls are not comfortable in wearing tight dresses that expose as much skin as possible. Also, in games were fighting is involved, women should wear protective gear that covers most of the body exactly as men, and possibly expose no cleavage (it would scream: "it here please").
It's personal, but I like a bit of realism in games, I don't like exaggerated acts of extreme strength and agility, I don't feel empowered by constantly staring at how my character is fit and muscular (male) or slender and curvaceous (female). I like characters that resemble real people and somehow are able, through my control, to perform heroic actions... that thing really empowers me: a regular guy/gal that performs acts of courage and saves the day.
Also, I hate titillation in games: when I play, I want to master the gameplay and discover secrets, enjoy the story, character progression, visuals, or simply that feeling that I'm becoming better and better in dealing with obstacles (like in Super Meat Boy). But I don't want to be titillated. Soft core, hentai, porn, all exist to give sexual pleasure to the viewer, and I like it as much as the next guy, but I don't want to mix that in my games: to be clear, I'm all for games that mix the two aspect, like a game based on a ecchi anime (Senran Kagura, for example), and I enjoy these kind of games knowing that I'll find in them both things.
But I'd like that sexualization was a precise element of the game and not just a generic trick used because sex sells: I mean, Dead Or Alive Extreme is exactly a kind of game that mixes ecchi elements with (poor) gameplay, and I'm okay with that, but I don't want big boobed girls that look like disproportioned children to be in every game.
And that goes along with other aesthetic elements like make up: ridiculous, exaggerated make up in games with female soldiers is just stupid. That character from RE: Revelations, Jessica Sherawat, has extreme make up and a completely exposed leg (while it's freezing out there): it's childish, pointless, unrealistic and exist only for the purpose of titillate the player (at least the player that likes women).
The fact that those female are "strong" (bullshit trope, if you ask me) is not relevant: they exist exclusively for the purpose of being watched, and that's exactly what objectification is, but I don't want to take on this more general topic, let's keep it personal.
So, please more realism and more variation, maybe choice: I'd like to play also an unfit character, with belly fat, that with skill and patience is able to take on that dragon as expertly as the next blonde knight in shining armor; I'd like to have regular women in games, that don't give that sense of weirdness when I realize that every single woman in a game I'm playing is aesthetically beautiful, apart from being strong, successful, smart, brave... I'am all for escapism, but there are boundaries.
Of course there's plenty of games out there that are better in this regard, and some of them were already quoted in this thread: but there's no doubt that sexualization is a thing in the gaming industry, and as much as I don't like shitty hollywood blockbusters that use stunning (at least in the aesthetics department) women for the purpose of giving male viewers something to look at between a special FX and the next, I don't like games that use distasteful commercial tricks to please the male audience.
Maybe a lot of other people do like sexualization in games, and are all for geometrically disproportioned breasts that defy gravity and thong-like outfits at ass level while the rest of the body is covered in armor, and I'm okay with that, but a little more choice and diversity would be greatly appreciated.
I'm male, but for what I know girls are not comfortable in wearing tight dresses that expose as much skin as possible. Also, in games were fighting is involved, women should wear protective gear that covers most of the body exactly as men, and possibly expose no cleavage (it would scream: "it here please").
It's personal, but I like a bit of realism in games, I don't like exaggerated acts of extreme strength and agility, I don't feel empowered by constantly staring at how my character is fit and muscular (male) or slender and curvaceous (female). I like characters that resemble real people and somehow are able, through my control, to perform heroic actions... that thing really empowers me: a regular guy/gal that performs acts of courage and saves the day.
Also, I hate titillation in games: when I play, I want to master the gameplay and discover secrets, enjoy the story, character progression, visuals, or simply that feeling that I'm becoming better and better in dealing with obstacles (like in Super Meat Boy). But I don't want to be titillated. Soft core, hentai, porn, all exist to give sexual pleasure to the viewer, and I like it as much as the next guy, but I don't want to mix that in my games: to be clear, I'm all for games that mix the two aspect, like a game based on a ecchi anime (Senran Kagura, for example), and I enjoy these kind of games knowing that I'll find in them both things.
But I'd like that sexualization was a precise element of the game and not just a generic trick used because sex sells: I mean, Dead Or Alive Extreme is exactly a kind of game that mixes ecchi elements with (poor) gameplay, and I'm okay with that, but I don't want big boobed girls that look like disproportioned children to be in every game.
And that goes along with other aesthetic elements like make up: ridiculous, exaggerated make up in games with female soldiers is just stupid. That character from RE: Revelations, Jessica Sherawat, has extreme make up and a completely exposed leg (while it's freezing out there): it's childish, pointless, unrealistic and exist only for the purpose of titillate the player (at least the player that likes women).
The fact that those female are "strong" (bullshit trope, if you ask me) is not relevant: they exist exclusively for the purpose of being watched, and that's exactly what objectification is, but I don't want to take on this more general topic, let's keep it personal.
So, please more realism and more variation, maybe choice: I'd like to play also an unfit character, with belly fat, that with skill and patience is able to take on that dragon as expertly as the next blonde knight in shining armor; I'd like to have regular women in games, that don't give that sense of weirdness when I realize that every single woman in a game I'm playing is aesthetically beautiful, apart from being strong, successful, smart, brave... I'am all for escapism, but there are boundaries.
Of course there's plenty of games out there that are better in this regard, and some of them were already quoted in this thread: but there's no doubt that sexualization is a thing in the gaming industry, and as much as I don't like shitty hollywood blockbusters that use stunning (at least in the aesthetics department) women for the purpose of giving male viewers something to look at between a special FX and the next, I don't like games that use distasteful commercial tricks to please the male audience.
Maybe a lot of other people do like sexualization in games, and are all for geometrically disproportioned breasts that defy gravity and thong-like outfits at ass level while the rest of the body is covered in armor, and I'm okay with that, but a little more choice and diversity would be greatly appreciated.
Crimsonsky
Member
If we all truly believe that games are art(and I do), we shouldn't be judging something as trivial as the sex appeal of the piece. We should be judging the piece on it's merits and quality.
Shes a fucking SUCUBUS dude, if shes not sexy she literally cant get her meal
dragon age yo
John Kowalski
Banned
This is a tricky one. There are a lot of ways to understand what an artist is trying to express with his work. First of all, a game is not a static medium, and it's possible to understand how strongly the artist feels about his own work by how he displays it across the length of the game, and how it relates to other aspects of the game, like male/female/child characters. A female character that's attractive and dressed in skimpy clothes can have those aspects of herself given further exposition by how she is displayed to the character (cutscenes will focus on her body, her animation works to exaggerate her body proportions, all other aspects of her character are played down do much that her body is the only strong element about her, etc.). Much like how any other character can be shown as strong (jumping impossible heights), intelligent (being a hacker, knowing a lot of stuff, having a strong deductive intelligence), bossy (usually displayed by formal clothing).
After being able to read what and how a character communicates itself to the player, it's easy enough to understand what archetypes it reinforces, and who it is aimed at. And in videogames, these archetypes are so often so obvious and so rarely subverted that most people can immediately pick up on them without a lot of effort. As for whether it is designed to appeal for men or women, it's as simple as being aware of the cultural reality that defines the context in which the game was developed. It's possible to have a strong understanding of what media understands as "designed for males", because years of study and application have garnered a body of work that can pick up when an artist is, whether consciously of subconsciously (perhaps not that simple, but the fact is that artists do employ these design choices, even if they lack the training as artists to verbalize why they do so) design their characters in ways that reinforce the male perspective on the male and female genders.
But the situation itself is much more complex than simply that. If we want to be pragmatic about it, there are a lot of other stuff to consider. Sometimes these designs exist because of marketing. Sometimes they exist, but no one in the team can see what's wrong with them (even if they themselves created it). Sometimes these designs are created by female designers, and they still may suffer from "designed for male" stuff. Sometimes the developers just aren't willing to break the status quo, though they may recognize that there's something wrong in their designs. There are a lot of possible situations that can help the status quo remain unchanged.
You'd be a pretty bad artist, really
The core of any art is communication, and each medium has its own vocabulary as to how to communicate certain things. Painting has them, photography has them, video has then, music has them, games have them, books have them, all of these have their very specific way of communicating with the audience. Some artists may be hard to read because the artists themselves aren't very good at their job, or because they simply can't express themselves in such a formal way. Moreover, you can get an ever better sense of how the artist communicates himself by studying his body of work, how his work relates to that of his contemporary peers, how it grows from the generation behind him, and better yet, sometimes the artist has the good sense of explaining his own work and what he intends with it (if they're not in the "fine art" culture that is, i swear those people speak a different fucking language).
There is such a thing as objectivity in art, as much as there is in any other kind of language. In fact, i don't know why i didn't mention that connection before. The relationship is exactly the same. If you read a poster's posts across a period of time, you can get a very good sense of how he is as a person (not really, but for the sake of the argument), not only by reading his own writings, but how he replies to others, how he differentiates himself from his peers, what he is trying to convey with his words, what he is implicitly saying (that the poster himself may not be aware of) and being coy about, and sometimes you'll be able to read into what that poster wants to say even if the poster himself lacks the knowledge or vocabulary to express himself properly.
Jeez. I hope this helps.
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
I agree that there are characters that are far too overly sexual. Even comic characters (most of them) that are adapted into video games, just look at Wonder Woman. None of that suit is practical, at all. While it isn't much better, most of the skin tight spandex stuff is what I prefer over that (e.g. Invisible Woman).
In terms of a warrior character, let's compare Sif to Wonder Woman:
Sif's got (mostly) practical armour, the breast plate isn't even that exaggerated. On the other hand, Wonder Woman's (Iconic) armour is ridiculous and doesn't exactly leave much up to the mind.
If the video game industry (particularly RPGs) could take inspiration from character design like Sif, then I think a lot of the current problems could be on the way to being solved.
Just my two pence.
In terms of a warrior character, let's compare Sif to Wonder Woman:
Sif's got (mostly) practical armour, the breast plate isn't even that exaggerated. On the other hand, Wonder Woman's (Iconic) armour is ridiculous and doesn't exactly leave much up to the mind.
If the video game industry (particularly RPGs) could take inspiration from character design like Sif, then I think a lot of the current problems could be on the way to being solved.
Just my two pence.
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
Manmademan
Member
This might be why. From the Persona 4 Wiki:
seems to be some kind of cultural connotation between manliness and roses there. Dude in Sailor moon was also throwing roses back in the day, IIRC.
I love sex, I love girls, I love sexy girls... So I don't really have a problem with it. I mean, I see where people are coming from - it would definitely suck (from my perspective) if games were filled with shirtless bishies, but thankfully developers seem to be pandering to me. Them's the breaks, I guess.
So basically, ugly 3D girls are jealous of our perfect 2D waifus? :lol
As a gay man I only find select women sexy on an appreciation level, and they generally put a lot of work into it with their makeup and clothes and have to have a very strong personality. I find dudes sexy that have put no effort whatsoever outside of having a shower. Half the world wants to have sex with men.
I can see why a woman is sexy, through her effect on others, but it takes any thread about a male actor to show some straight dudes saying they do too. Or what about people appreciating male superheroes?
I'd argue that the only reason a gay man is seen as universally more responsive to both sexes, compared to a straight man, is not because women are inheritly sexier than men. Instead I think it is because our culture and society beat dudes over the head with a stick both consciously and subconsciously, locking them into a defensive box where they cannot appreciate anything but women without both ridicule from others and self hatred. On the other side of the coin, gay people have already had to go past those mental hurdles, as part of coming out both to others and especially to themselves, and can better appreciate the sexiness of all people as a result.
These are just my opinions of course.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I mean, to bring it full circle to what I said earlier in this thread, I don't have a problem with sexiness in context. I don't really have a problem with anything in the right context. I have a problem with a lot of sex appeal in games currently being contextualized poorly or not at all in a near homogenous manner.
SolidSnakex
Member
I think Team Ninja has always been quite up front and honest about how they design their female characters the way they do. Here's what they said about DoA5
http://www.mcvpacific.com/news/read/interview-head-of-team-ninja-talks-dead-or-alive-5/0101641
http://www.psu.com/a016587/Team-Nin...sts-to-create-the-cutest-chicks-in-videogames
kamakazi_30
Banned
The sexier, the better.
Yup that's my thoughts as well. Sexiness can be really tasteful or explained by said context, but a lot of the time the reasoning is clearly just cause the character is a woman. I think a lot of that has been worked on heavily this gen with gradual sexing up of the male characters and the deepening of the female characters. The playing field is starting to even out on a level where both can be sexy, both can be tasteful, and both can be built on great personalities instead of being a billboard with muscles or breasts.
If the product is pure escapism, like a dungeon crawler with zero narrative aspirations, i can stomach the idea, make everyone happy and all that.
But if we're talking about something that has even a minimal amount of design aspiration, the idea makes my skin crawl.
As the artist/designer you have to simply choose whichever design is best for the idea you want to convey, if it means having a naked woman, do it, if it means having a practically clothed woman do that.
I see giving the player the choice like that as a cop-out, and a failure of artistic design as much as pandering to the marketing of having naked tits just because they (allegedly) sell more.
You have to be confident about the design being the best for the product you want, and the idea you want to convey, ideally that's all it should be about.
If that was the case, diversity would simply arise by the natural diversity of creators from all cultures, genders and social extractions.
Moon_frogger
Member
The problem is when the large majority of female gamers feel alienated.
Sgt.Pepper
Banned
This is not a realistic scenario.
I myself have bought games with design elements I think are stupid, because other elements in said games were good.
Ninja Gaiden has a stupid ass character design, but some of the best gameplay i've played.
You can't really reduce it to "vote with your dollars".
Even doing away with "gender politics", i've bought a game for the great gameplay, but i would've like it if it wasn't set in Manhattan for 100th time, for example.
Voicing you criticism (in a constructive and civil, non condescending manner, ideally) goes a long way, beyond simply the buy/not buy scenario.
Especially when i didn't buy Remember Me, because it was a shitty game, but publishers are going to assume i didn't because the main character was a female.
A character being sexy, or sex appeal being part of a character is different from predicating a character on its sexuality, or reducing the value of a character to outwardly motivated sexuality. I am as frustrated by characters existing only as a conduit for the audiences' prurient desires as I am that Chie is reduced to "beef bowl girl" in Persona 4 Arena. Different topics, similar reduction in the sorts of complexity that make a character interesting in the first place.
The way I see it, this topic has less to do with skimpy outfits than some may believe. That doesn't necessarily stop those outfits from sometimes being grotesque or lazy, aesthetically, but that's not the same criticism.
The way I see it, this topic has less to do with skimpy outfits than some may believe. That doesn't necessarily stop those outfits from sometimes being grotesque or lazy, aesthetically, but that's not the same criticism.
I get your point, but Wonder Woman is a bad example because she's hard to hurt, even if she was naked.
Sort of like this dude:
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Same goes for the Hulk, or the Thing, or a lot of other male powerhouses in comics.