Support NeoGAF

[darkace]

No. You can be prejudiced against a certain group of people, and that's stupid, but oppression is part of racism.

The intro paragraph in the Wikipedia article should give you a good idea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

Too many people use the term to simply mean "not liking members of a specific ethnicity."

Absolutely not all white people hold prejudices against non-whites. White people, and especially white men, in America, absolutely benefit and feed back into the systemic racism ingrained in this country, though.

Institutional racism is not the sole form of racism. It's not even the primary form. Oppression has never, at any point in time, been a requirement for racism. You've literally just made that up.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Institutional racism is not the sole form of racism. It's not even the primary form. Oppression has never, at any point in time, been a requirement for racism. You've literally just made that up.

I don't think I did. Discrimination is a form of oppression, as in keeping people down.

 

[depths20XX]

The problem is that there is no factual basis for any of this. No data, no facts, it's based on subjective ideas of racism and how white people act. Therefore, all white people are racist. There is no reason to think that white people can learn or escape from the teachings of their social environments. They're simply indoctrinated into racism and therefore guilty of it. How could they know any better? They have no concept of reason or understanding.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Racism as the ideological form of white supremacy is not a fringe definition. It was the default definition until the Nixon era. The idea that racism is simply 'hating someone because of their skin color' is new and was created as a co-option technique by the right once being openly racist was deemed unacceptable.

Why did this revisionist definition catch on so fast? Because it doesn't make white people feel uncomfortable.

Speaking of white fragility and this thread:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...-against-white-people/?utm_term=.68356281a1a0

As a POC, that some white person describing people being prejudice against them and wording it with racism is wack!
POC are discriminated and profiled in every day life but you just equated my experiences of said racism with someone calling you a cracker (or whatever the instance should be).
As a POC a think that whites are devaluing the word and not respecting the history behind it.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

The problem is that there is no factual basis for any of this. No data, no facts, it's based on subjective ideas of racism and how white people act. Therefore, all white people are racist. There is no reason to think that white people can learn or escape from the teachings of their social environments. They're simply indoctrinated into racism and therefore guilty of it. How could they know any better? They have no concept of reason or understanding.

There is no factual basis that white people continue to enjoy large advantages in just about every aspect of American society? That's just nonsense.

Now, you can be guilty of taking advantage of that system, but still work to rectify it. It will take time, of course, and require that white people give up privileges and advantages that they take for granted, but progress is possible.

 

[Aranath]

Not every white person was taught racist thinking when raised.

Hell, I grew up in Apartheid South Africa with parents who used to be rather racist. Made it kind of easy to realise how wrong it was (and lose some respect for my parents at the same time).

 

[depths20XX]

There is no factual basis that white people continue to enjoy large advantages in just about every aspect of American society? That's just nonsense.

Now, you can be guilty of taking advantage of that system, but still work to rectify it. It will take time, of course, and require that white people give up privileges and advantages that they take for granted, but progress is possible.

There is factual basis for your first point, I didn't disagree with that. White people having advantages in society doesn't automatically make them racist. You seem to have missed that point. All white people aren't in control of "the system".

 

[Deleted member 17706]

There is factual basis for your first point, I didn't disagree with that. White people having advantages in society doesn't automatically make them racist. You seem to have missed that point. All white people aren't in control of "the system".

You don't have to be directly in control of something to reap the benefits from it and simultaneously support it so it continues on.

 

[Steve.1981]

Been thinking about this and at first I thought that line was just a clumsy way to get a philosophical debate started, but now (and after reading some of the opinions in this thread) I'm starting to wonder if this teacher didn't choose those words deliberately, knowing full well that sometimes you do need to slam a fist down on the table to get people to stop and look up.

I mean, at some point we white western people are going to have to come to terms with the fact that the societies we've built are inherently biased in our favour and still, to this day, systematically oppressive to people who are not white. It would take a staggering lack of self-awareness to not understand that on some level, I honestly think.

As a white man I say arguing about the exact wording of what the teacher said is pointless, just as arguing over the literal definition of racism is pointless. Yes, I get why people are doing it, and I feel it myself. When I look at those words I feel defensive and automatically think, "But I'm not racist".

Well, that's not the point. That's not what's important here. I don't think I'm racist. I don't think the majority of white people are racist these days. But there are plenty of people (even in this thread) telling me things like, "That's great, but still in 2016 I have to remember and keep my hands out my pockets when I walk into the corner store". Am I, as a white man, willing to just shut up for a minute and actually think about that? I think that's the point, or part of it anyway, and I think maybe that's what this teacher was trying to say.

I understand that I could be looking at this the wrong way though. I'm not American, I never stepped foot in the country. It could be a whole lot more complicated than I can conceive. I just wanted to put my opinion out there.

 

[dlauv]

I find this post absurd on several levels. I will try to articulate my main points.

1. Aren't the "you can't be racist against white people" supporters the very same people who hate the "I don't see race" argument? If validating the existence of races contributes to racism, isn't that stance self-contradictory?

I cannot falsifiably answer the first question. In regard to your second question, yes and no. Racism exists and perpetuates itself. To acknowledge it exists is to perpetuate its concepts of "race" (in hope that racism can and will eventually be snuffed out), but "not seeing race" is egalitarian rhetoric that promotes ignorance/is removed from the realities of political inequality.

2. The origin of the concept of race does not fully determine who will adopt the concept. Thus, race being (allegedly) a white invention does not relegate the concept of racism to white people. "Whites invent race -> another society, individual or culture adopts the concept -> discriminates based on what they perceive to be race"- that sounds like racism to me.

Socialization is a proven thing (about as much as sociology can prove anything). People are not raised in a vacuum. Following the definition as "racism is racial prejudice + power," a minority would not be in a position to practice racism. In America, minority means non-white. In other countries, minorities could be white. However, the seed of fault is white supremacy ("allegedly"), full stop. It follows logically that the fault of the victims of "racially motivated action" is white supremacy.

To compare and contrast, this would seem similar to me saying that the person who invented a gun is at the fault of everyone being shot. From a point of view, this is true, but it's not as relevant or helpful to current firearms discussion as it is to race discussion. A difference is that guns are indifferent objects incapable of judgment while white supremacy and the concept of race are a prevailing culture/ideal of human bias. So the sociological definition is a helpful identifier of the existing root problem, particularly in American/much Western discussion.

Etymologically and practically, anyone can enact on "racist" ideals. However unlikely: theoretically, someone could believe in black supremacy and kill whites as a result. That would be racist by all practical definition, but it's a reaction in a long list of reactions to white supremacy. And you can be sure, as a result of this theoretical scenario and due to systemic racism, white supremacy would prosper because of this. In a roundabout way, the theoretical black supremacist action would serve white supremacy through reinforcing existing bias and resulting power dynamics.

Does this mean that prejudiced violence would not exist due to other reasons? That people wouldn't be prejudiced against skin color without white people interfering and creating "race?" Likely not, but one problem at a time.

3. That definition of racism is solely based on white people, so it does not hold up in any relationship between two people or societies of non-white ethnicity. Thus, you have to either relegate the definition of racism or relegate your statement that one cannot be racist against white people to societies with white people. I am not seeing anyone do either.

"Racial prejudice + power" was created by white supremacy, but it does not preclude the ideal from being enacted by other races with majority power in societies/countries other than America.

4. Why not find a new word for your own definition of racism? What does this concept of yours have in common with the regular definition of racism that it has to replace the known denotation of "racism" and not have another name?

Why does it matter? It provokes discussion and knowledge, and is a problem identifier. Racism wasn't conceived as an egalitarian identifier of peoples existing prejudice. It's intellectually dishonest to pretend it is. It was created specifically to justify oppression that continues to exist. The concept that "everyone can be racist" is fairly useless rhetoric which is self-serving to the comfort of the current oppressive power structure. Sure, "racism" could be less contentious if another word was given to sociologists, but what word would suit? Which is why I said that it's more-so political than practical.

6. In a social structure that discriminates on race, what is perceived as "race" actually MATTERS, regardless of whether it has scientific/historical basis or not. Individuals and communities are defined in SOME manner with regard to races in a society where races exist. Being willing to discuss a racial topic in this context does not propagate systemic racism as you imply, it simply acknowledges its existence and agrees to the bounds of that concept.

I agree. This was covered in my first response.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

I'm freckled, so I'm only about 70% racist. I admit I become more racist in the winter but I also become less racist the summer thanks to how well I tan.

 

[Alienfan]

Been thinking about this and at first I thought that line was just a clumsy way to get a philosophical debate started, but now (and after reading some of the opinions in this thread) I'm starting to wonder if this teacher didn't choose those words deliberately, knowing full well that sometimes you do need to slam a fist down on the table to get people to stop and look up.

I mean, at some point we white western people are going to have to come to terms with the fact that the societies we've built are inherently biased in our favour and still, to this day, systematically oppressive to people who are not white. It would take a staggering lack of self-awareness to not understand that on some level, I honestly think.

As a white man I say arguing about the exact wording of what the teacher said is pointless, just as arguing over the literal definition of racism is pointless. Yes, I get why people are doing it, and I feel it myself. When I look at those words I feel defensive and automatically think, "But I'm not racist".

Well, that's not the point. That's not what's important here. I don't think I'm racist. I don't think the majority of white people are racist these days. But there are plenty of people (even in this thread) telling me things like, "That's great, but still in 2016 I have to remember and keep my hands out my pockets when I walk into the corner store". Am I, as a white man, willing to just shut up for a minute and actually think about that? I think that's the point, or part of it anyway, and I think maybe that's what this teacher was trying to say.

I understand that I could be looking at this the wrong way though. I'm not American, I never stepped foot in the country. It could be a whole lot more complicated than I can conceive. I just wanted to put my opinion out there.

Agreed, although it still seems like weird wording to get a very important message across, I don't think it's crazy for someone to be upset at being called a "racist" when all they've done is lived a privileged life. In everyday discourse the word is reserved for those who deploy hate speech and believe their race to be superior than another. So of course you're going to upset people (who don't hold those beliefs) when you group together them with the deplorables. You can similarly make the argument all straight men are homophobic, and all men are sexist too, but why? You just and needlessly throw people on the defence and confuse the shit out of them. More nuanced (like you and others have covered) is what would have been more effective I think.

 

[Venfayth]

I said this in more detail earlier in the thread, but I don't get why people think being less nuanced about an incredibly nuanced issue is a better way to approach the issue.

The forms of racism that are not overt racism are, I think arguably more important to talk about than the super obvious hateful vocal racism.

I think there is a large portion of the population of the US that literally only thinks racism is shouting slurs at people of a different race. So why dilute your message and just call it "racism" when you're talking about things that are way more complex and systemic? Addressing them and saying "all white people are racist" without any further nuance seems likely only to push them away from the opportunity of understanding the other forms of racism in society.

I don't believe that using different terminology somehow diminishes the severity or importance of it either. I dunno. That's just my feeling.

 

[Funyarinpa]

I cannot falsifiably answer the first question. In regard to your second question, yes and no. Racism exists and perpetuates itself. To acknowledge it exists is to perpetuate its concepts of "race" (in hope that racism can and will eventually be snuffed out), but "not seeing race" is egalitarian rhetoric that promotes ignorance/is removed from the realities of political inequality.



Socialization is a proven thing (about as much as sociology can prove anything). People are not raised in a vacuum. Following the definition as "racism is racial prejudice + power," a minority would not be in a position to practice racism. In America, minority means non-white. In other countries, minorities could be white. However, the seed of fault is white supremacy ("allegedly"), full stop. It follows logically that the fault of the victims of "racially motivated action" is white supremacy.

To compare and contrast, this would seem similar to me saying that the person who invented a gun is at the fault of everyone being shot. From a point of view, this is true, but it's not as relevant or helpful to current firearms discussion as it is to race discussion. A difference is that guns are indifferent objects incapable of judgment while white supremacy and the concept of race are a prevailing culture/ideal of human bias. So the sociological definition is a helpful identifier of the existing root problem, particularly in American/much Western discussion.

Etymologically and practically, anyone can enact on "racist" ideals. However unlikely: theoretically, someone could believe in black supremacy and kill whites as a result. That would be racist by all practical definition, but it's a reaction in a long list of reactions to white supremacy. And you can be sure, as a result of this theoretical scenario and due to systemic racism, white supremacy would prosper because of this. In a roundabout way, the theoretical black supremacist action would serve white supremacy through reinforcing existing bias and resulting power dynamics.

Does this mean that prejudiced violence would not exist due to other reasons? That people wouldn't be prejudiced against skin color without white people interfering and creating "race?" Likely not, but one problem at a time.



"Racial prejudice + power" was created by white supremacy, but it does not preclude the ideal from being enacted by other races with majority power in societies/countries other than America.



Why does it matter? It provokes discussion and knowledge, and is a problem identifier. Racism wasn't conceived as an egalitarian identifier of peoples existing prejudice. It's intellectually dishonest to pretend it is. It was created specifically to justify oppression that continues to exist. The concept that "everyone can be racist" is fairly useless rhetoric which is self-serving to the comfort of the current oppressive power structure. Sure, "racism" could be less contentious if another word was given to sociologists, but what word would suit? Which is why I said that it's more-so political than practical.



I agree. This was covered in my first response.

Thank you for the well-written and approachable response! I see where you're coming from now.

 

[Infinite]

The problem is that there is no factual basis for any of this. No data, no facts, it's based on subjective ideas of racism and how white people act. Therefore, all white people are racist. There is no reason to think that white people can learn or escape from the teachings] of their social environments. They're simply indoctrinated into racism and therefore guilty of it. How could they know any better? They have no concept of reason or understanding.

White people view blacks as "super heroes"

White people view black children as older and less innocent, black children are likely to receive harsher sentence and be tried as an adult.

White people view lighter skin black people as smarter and more reliable and incorrectly recall "smart" black as light skin

White people are less moved by the pain and suffering of black people


White people are more likely to support the criminal justice system when they think it's disproportionately punitive to black people

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

White people view blacks as "super heroes"

White people view black children as older and less innocent, black children are likely to receive harsher sentence and be tried as an adult.

White people view lighter skin black people as smarter and more reliable and incorrectly recall "smart" black as light skin

White people are less moved by the pain and suffering of black people


White people are more likely to support the criminal justice system when they think it's disproportionately punitive to black people

"I'm a special snowflake though. This doesn't affect me."

Yes. All white people. The most you can do is try to undo these learned behaviors.

 

[jWILL253]

These threads always play out the exact same way.

I honestly want the White people in this thread (and on GAF in general) to learn something.

I watched that Jane Elliot video someone linked in the thread a while ago, and I eventually went down a rabbit hole and ended up watching different versions of the experiment. Funnily enough, the videos that were shot in America all seemed to have a positive outcome. The only one that didn't was the one she did in 2009, in the UK. That one was derailed from the start, with everyone bringing up false equivalences to explain why race isn't a factor anymore. One woman, a White teacher placed in the blue-eyed group, suggested that she has faced racial discrimination on par with any Black person, and she also equated the plight of Blacks "playing the game" and conforming to her husband having to wear nice clothes and keeping proper hygiene. Eventually, one of the brown-eyed group members decided to sabotage the whole thing, because she for some reason thought her offense at the suggestion that she might be racist is more important than actually learning something different from the norm.

The reason why I brought that up is because I need White people in here to understand something: This isn't about you. Seriously. It's not about you. It's not about what you had to go through personally. It's not about how many times you were called a cracker by people of color. It's not about how many ________ friends you have. It's not about your political alignment. It's not about whether you think it's fair to suggest all Whites are racist. It's not about how hard your life is. NONE of this is about you. You guys have GOT to start understanding that, because in each and every thread like this, people bring up personal plights or bring up terms like "nuance" or say things like "they could've said that better" as if your offense at how the lesson was told is more important than the lesson itself. Every time threads like this occur, people start going into their own personal lives and how bad it was, and what they had to go through, as if that somehow A) makes you NOT racist, and B) trumps the experience of an entire group of people. Every time a thread like this pops up, we get into semantics arguments and it always ends up exposing how many people don't know what the difference between bigotry and racism is.

Just stop it. Forreal. If you guys are actually willing to learn and to change the state of race relations the world over, you have to get over yourselves and just learn to listen for once. No one cares about your personal experience. It doesn't matter. Because you can still walk down the street and not ever have to worry about being shot by the police for doing _____ while Black.

 

[Whom_Gods_Annoy]

It will ALWAYS exist. Until the end of time. That's just the reality of it.

And that's why I think the concept of being born racist is a nihilistic, counterproductive, and bullshit way of looking at racism.

"I'm a special snowflake though. This doesn't affect me."

Yes. All white people. The most you can do is try to undo these learned behaviors.

Too bad I'll still be racist, along with my children and my children's children. But maybe being upset about that is just my white fragility kicking in.

 

[KingV]

"I'm a special snowflake though. This doesn't affect me."

Yes. All white people. The most you can do is try to undo these learned behaviors.

I can guarantee you that none of those studies literally says "every white person was more sympathetic to whites than blacks". Especially in psychology where R^2 is typically low. The regression models will determine average responses. Basically read all of those titles with an "on average" in front. There are always going to be outliers that act differently, individually, than the overall conclusions of the research.

 

[Infinite]

I can guarantee you that none of those studies literally says "every white person was more sympathetic to whites than blacks". Especially in psychology where R^2 is typically low. The regression models will determine average responses. Basically read all of those titles with an "on average" in front. There are always going to be outliers that act differently, individually, than the overall conclusions of the research.

How about actually giving those studies a look. Not to say that your point here is wrong but it is ultimately irrelevant

 

[AdamPA]

As a POC I really don't like this.

There are ways to approach institutionalized racism without putting down or being awful to white people. I don't think we should lower ourselves down to the racists' level by acting like one as well.

This makes sense.

 

[Skellig Gra]

"I'm a special snowflake though. This doesn't affect me."

Yes. All white people. The most you can do is try to undo these learned behaviors.

What about Barack Obama since he was raised by a white mother. Is he racist towards black people? Let's try to have a little nuance instead of incredibly broad strokes.

 

[ThisGuy]

Too bad I'll still be racist, along with my children and my children's children. But maybe being upset about that is just my white fragility kicking in.

You might be, and maybe your children. But your childrens children, should they not exist yet, still have a chance.

What about Barack Obama since he was raised by a white mother. Is he racist towards black people? Let's try to have a little nuance instead of incredibly broad strokes.

Ya know, seeing as his mom is white, I wonder how he feels about this. It'd be cool hear him on the subject of race. Well, a book.

 

[Beach]

Knew I was racist because I was born Persian Armenian. Sucks

 

[MistakenMobius]

As someone from outside of the US with a few ethnicities mixed in, I find hilarious the way Americans reduce everything to color skin when people in the majority of the world hate their neighbors that looks just like them....
Hutu and Tutsi
Israeli and Palestinian
Serbs and Bosnian
Wallons and Flemish
Sunni and Shias

 

[gfxtwin]

Regarding the notion that you can't be racist if you're black, I notice many black activists's idea of anti-racism is having pride in and wanting to talk about and flaunt "blackness". How they are proud of their skin color and hair, etc. This is funny to me in that it probably angers all the right people, but in the end I'm not sure I totally get it. I'm not saying I think it's racist - to some degree it's got to be a punk/anti-establishment reaction to the overwhelming whiteness encountered in society and via media every day, but I don't understand it. Race is a social construct, and is that having pride in pigment? Unless the term "black" is currently being re-appropriated from the racial context to meaning something based more in culture/ethnicity?

 

[Poodlestrike]

Question about the whole "racism is just the structure by which white people keep the rest of the world down" thing: how does that address scenarios with racial hatred & imperialism where no white people were involved? E.g. East Asia, Imperial Japan specifically.

Actually asking. I could see the argument that Imperial Japan was essentially the Japanese trying to ape the successful Western powers of the day, but frankly, the behavior and attitudes there predate Commodore Perry et. al. so I'm not sure.

 

[FortuneFaded]

How about actually giving those studies a look. Not to say that your point here is wrong but it is ultimately irrelevant

How is it irrelevant? The original poster you quoted stated that there was no evidence to support the claim that all white people are racist and then you posted these links. None of these studies claim that all white people have these biases. So what you are basically asserting is like saying that because white people are more likely to support Trump then all white people support Trump. As for giving studies a look:

and incorrectly recall "smart" black as light skin

Our sample was multi-ethnic and multi-racial: 36.3% White, 21.7% Asian/Pacific Islander, 20.4% Latino, 8.9% Black, and 12.7% Other. There were no significant (or near significant) differences in memory errors between non-White and White participants.

So rather than your claim that this study uniquely singles out white people, it shows that all races associate lighter skin with intelligence. I know you might claim this is proof that white supremacist society permeates all of its members but that's a different argument.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

And that's why I think the concept of being born racist is a nihilistic, counterproductive, and bullshit way of looking at racism.



Too bad I'll still be racist, along with my children and my children's children. But maybe being upset about that is just my white fragility kicking in.

If you worked on undoing your learned cultural behaviors you would still be trying. Which is better than what we can say for other people and what matters. In the grand scheme, it matters. Rather than wallow in it, try to change course and fight it so you can create a better world. I will not befriend a white person who is not willing to try to undo their white supremacist conditioning. I think it's reasonable to expect that your friends do this. This "I'll still be a racist tho" isn't a good look.

 

[Infinite]

How is it irrelevant? The original poster you quoted stated that there was no evidence to support the claim that all white people are racist and then you posted these links. None of these studies claim that all white people have these biases. So what you are basically asserting is like saying that because white people are more likely to support Trump then all white people support Trump. As for giving studies a look:


Our sample was multi-ethnic and multi-racial: 36.3% White, 21.7% Asian/Pacific Islander, 20.4% Latino, 8.9% Black, and 12.7% Other. There were no significant (or near significant) differences in memory errors between non-White and White participants.

So rather than your claim that this study uniquely singles out white people, it shows that all races associate lighter skin with intelligence. I know you might claim this is proof that white supremacist society permeates all of its members but that's a different argument.

That is my my argument. That's the crux of this whole discussion

 

[DorkyMohr]

I don't really have anything to counter the teacher's statement with, it's pretty much true. It took a long time for me personally to see and acknowledge the benefits I have by being white. I still subconsciously associate "real racism" with ignorant bile spewing internet comments and shameless superiority complex jerks.

A lot of people take the label of being "racist" as a worst case definition, that you revel in it or have to wear it as a scarlet letter. The best thing you can do is to keep it as a reminder to treat others fairly and with respect and fight against the institutions that give you preferential treatment for just being white.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I don't really have anything to counter the teacher's statement with, it's pretty much true. It took a long time for me personally to see and acknowledge the benefits I have by being white. I still subconsciously associate "real racism" with ignorant bile spewing internet comments and shameless superiority complex jerks.

A lot of people take the label of being "racist" as a worst case definition, that you revel in it or have to wear it as a scarlet letter. The best thing you can do is to keep it as a reminder to treat others fairly and with respect and fight against the institutions that give you preferential treatment for just being white.

You're cool. I like that frame of mind.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

How is it irrelevant? The original poster you quoted stated that there was no evidence to support the claim that all white people are racist and then you posted these links. None of these studies claim that all white people have these biases. So what you are basically asserting is like saying that because white people are more likely to support Trump then all white people support Trump. As for giving studies a look:


Our sample was multi-ethnic and multi-racial: 36.3% White, 21.7% Asian/Pacific Islander, 20.4% Latino, 8.9% Black, and 12.7% Other. There were no significant (or near significant) differences in memory errors between non-White and White participants.

So rather than your claim that this study uniquely singles out white people, it shows that all races associate lighter skin with intelligence. I know you might claim this is proof that white supremacist society permeates all of its members but that's a different argument.

Yes, this affects non-white people as well. Our society and culture values whiteness above all else. This makes PoC feel inferior and ultimately concede that light skin is superior. Because our culture values it. It takes a tremendous about of effort for a person of color to break out of this thinking. It is done in such a way that it's highly likely that white people feel superior even on an subconscious level. No one said that the forces of white supremacy and racism affects only white people. But for the sake of the discussion is makes white people racist. Not all white people support Trump, but if you bothered to read the studies, white people of all political stripes have a pro- white bias. There are forces here that are racist that have nothing to do with the overt kind of racism of Trump. "Small" things like thinking black people feel less pain. That can matter when you apply to be a cop and think a black man can survive at 12 shots. Ultimately, white people made this culture to begin with. They get the most flack for it because it is their responsibility to kill it. But they won't, because they stand to value in some way from it. For years, the drug war was used to cast black people and Latinos and Asians as drug users and drug addicts. But once white people start to become drug addicts through painkiller use, suddenly it's a crisis and the drug war is called into question. Suddenly drug addiction is a sad thing with real victims. "We all make mistakes." But that didn't stop white people from casting people of color as drug addicts. "Those people are low lives." Because white people live in a goddamn bubble until it effects white people. Because white people and white society is racist in a society that mollycoddled their values as well themselves.

 

[Infinite]

Yes, this affects non-white people as well. Our society and culture values whiteness above all else. This makes PoC feel inferior and ultimately concede that light skin is superior. Because our culture values it. It takes a tremendous about of effort for a person of color to break out of this thinking. It is done in such a way that it's highly likely that white people feel superior even on an subconscious level. No one said that the forces of white supremacy and racism affects only white people. But for the sake of the discussion is makes white people racist. Not all white people support Trump, but if you bothered to read the studies, white people of all political stripes have a pro- white bias. There are forces here that are racist that have nothing to do with the overt kind of racism of Trump. "Small" things like thinking black people feel less pain. That can matter when you apply to be a cop and think a black man can survive at 12 shots. Ultimately, white people made this culture to begin with. They get the most flack for it because it is their responsibility to kill it. But they won't, because they stand to value in some way from it. For years, the drug war was used to cast black people and Latinos and Asians as drug users and drug addicts. But once white people start to become drug addicts through painkiller use, suddenly it's a crisis and the drug war is called into question. Because white peoole live in a goddamn bubble until it effects white people. Because white people and white society is racist.

Thanks for broadening the point. I'm On mobile so incan't really dive into these posts lol

 

[MistakenMobius]

Yes, this affects non-white people as well. Our society and culture values whiteness above all else. This makes PoC feel inferior and ultimately concede that light skin is superior. Because our culture values it. It takes a tremendous about of effort for a person of color to break out of this thinking. It is done in such a way that it's highly likely that white people feel superior even on an subconscious level. No one said that the forces of white supremacy and racism affects only white people. But for the sake of the discussion is makes white people racist. Not all white people support Trump, but if you bothered to read the studies, white people of all political stripes have a pro- white bias. There are forces here that are racist that have nothing to do with the overt kind of racism of Trump. "Small" things like thinking black people feel less pain. That can matter when you apply to be a cop and think a black man can survive at 12 shots. Ultimately, white people made this culture to begin with. They get the most flack for it because it is their responsibility to kill it. But they won't, because they stand to value in some way from it. For years, the drug war was used to cast black people and Latinos and Asians as drug users and drug addicts. But once white people start to become drug addicts through painkiller use, suddenly it's a crisis and the drug war is called into question. Because white peoole live in a goddamn bubble until it effects white people. Because white people and white society is racist.

Then why does Arabs from the middle east who used to put white people in slavery also see black people as subhuman?
Are they also part of the white supremacy?
And it doesn't explain inter-African racism or things like operation searchlight in Bangladesh

 

[Whom_Gods_Annoy]

If you worked on undoing your learned cultural behaviors you would still be trying. Which is better than what we can say for other people and what matters. In the grand scheme, it matters. Rather than wallow in it, try to change course and fight it so you can create a better world. I will not befriend a white person who is not willing to try to undo their white supremacist conditioning. I think it's reasonable to expect that your friends do this. This "I'll still be a racist tho" isn't a good look.

Do you make sure to remind your white friends they will always be "just a little bit racist" because they are born white even if they have undone their white supremacist conditioning like you hope they do? You certainly don't want to make them feel like they have actually overcome societal pressures and barriers right?

 

[Cyframe]

There are degrees of racism. Someone laughing at a racist joke isn't on the same level as a klan member. But when you have a big subset of white people who only have a certain view of racism (klan racism) due to a lack of facing both interpersonal racism and systemic racism, many believe the accusation of racism is the ultimate affront.

Looking at some of the responses in this thread, I'm not really surprised. The assumption of racism is not that same as dealing with police brutality. Here you have a teacher, an anecdote and people are getting very defensive, instead of looking at the core of things: That white people can have racial biases and blindspots more so than other groups in the US because they don't deal with interpersonal and systemic racism.

The way that I've seen white people get offended when they get called out for racism or they'll deny they had any racial malice when using something like the n-word, even though you've told them personally that the word is dehumanizing, and then they're the ones who cry, that's white fragility and the biggest stumbling block when it comes to many conversations.

Going back to my first point, if you're a white person who laughs at racist jokes, I won't call you a klan member, but I will call you racist. Racism comes in degrees. I think white people getting pressed and acting as if being called racist is the worst thing, I'd like to deal with a life like that, because I've been through horrible things, overt racism, when white bystanders said nothing or didn't or want to resolve situations in help me or take on the racist.

I dunno, all this information is out there and things are changing so slowly and tbh white people, (not Black people and other PoC ) need to put in more work, because they aren't doing enough. Some are, but not nearly enough as a whole.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Then why does Arabs from the middle east who used to put white people in slavery also see black people as subhuman?
Are they also part of the white supremacy?
And it doesn't explain inter-African racism or things like operation searchlight in Bangladesh

White peoole control the world, make no mistake. This is the first I've heard of it. Did Arabs conduct studies of evolution through "science" and study skeletons of different races and come to the conclusion that white people are inferior and Arab skulls are superior? Then base an entire scientific culture based around such racial bias? When Arabs had white slaves did they rape white women and infect them with all manner of diseases and sti's that produced foul smell, which factors into the modern day stereotype that white people smell bad? Do Arabs have the power to travel the world after winning WWII and spread hate to areas that aren't familiar with cultures? I'm sure the people in Korea are happy Arabs told them about white face minstrel shows that they still now happily conduct. Arabs certainly traveled the world and told everyone that white people are thieves, so now when you visit Japan white people will be followed by a Japanese shop keeper in case of theft. I'm sure those Arabs right now have the power right now to stop white people from gaining housing, or think that white female doctors aren't a thing.

For the record, Arabs are considered Caucasian. Also that Arab, like Latino, includes white Arabs.

 

[Whom_Gods_Annoy]

White peoole control the world, make no mistake. This is the first I've heard of it. Did Arabs conduct studies of evolution through "science" and study skeletons of different races and come to the conclusion that white people are inferior and Arab skulls are superior? Then base an entire scientific culture based around such racial bias? When Arabs had white slaves did they rape white women and infect them with all manner of diseases and sti's that produced foul smell, which factors into the modern day stereotype that white people smell bad? Do Arabs have the power to travel the world after winning WWII and spread hate to areas that aren't familiar with cultures? I'm sure the people in Korea are happy Arabs told them about white face minstrel shows that they still now happily conduct. Arabs certainly traveled the world and told everyone that white people are thieves, so now when you visit Japan white people will be followed by a Japanese shop keeper in case of theft. I'm sure those Arabs right now have the power right now to stop white people from gaining housing, or think that white female doctors aren't a thing.

For the record, Arabs are considered Caucasian. Or that Arab, like Latino, includes white Arabs.

That's a lot of rhetoric, but it doesn't answer his questions.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Do you make sure to remind your white friends they will always be "just a little bit racist" because they are born white even if they have undone their white supremacist conditioning like you hope they do? You certainly don't want to make them feel like they have actually overcome societal pressures and barriers right?

When my white friends say something racist I remind them about it, and they do the same for me. We correct it , no problem. No need to apologize. Often they're very subtle micro aggressions.

 

[Funyarinpa]

Yes, this affects non-white people as well. Our society and culture values whiteness above all else. This makes PoC feel inferior and ultimately concede that light skin is superior. Because our culture values it. It takes a tremendous about of effort for a person of color to break out of this thinking. It is done in such a way that it's highly likely that white people feel superior even on an subconscious level. No one said that the forces of white supremacy and racism affects only white people. But for the sake of the discussion is makes white people racist. Not all white people support Trump, but if you bothered to read the studies, white people of all political stripes have a pro- white bias. There are forces here that are racist that have nothing to do with the overt kind of racism of Trump. "Small" things like thinking black people feel less pain. That can matter when you apply to be a cop and think a black man can survive at 12 shots. Ultimately, white people made this culture to begin with. They get the most flack for it because it is their responsibility to kill it. But they won't, because they stand to value in some way from it. For years, the drug war was used to cast black people and Latinos and Asians as drug users and drug addicts. But once white people start to become drug addicts through painkiller use, suddenly it's a crisis and the drug war is called into question. Suddenly drug addiction is a sad thing with real victims. "We all make mistakes." But that didn't stop white people from casting people of color as drug addicts. "Those people are low lives." Because white people live in a goddamn bubble until it effects white people. Because white people and white society is racist in a society that mollycoddled their values as well themselves.

Seeing as no currently alive white person "made" this culture (propagating it is different), I don't think the bolded stands. I can see how white people can be inert to change due to benefiting from the status quo, though.

Also, a question: Since PoCs are also affected by white supremacism, doesn't that make them racist (against themselves) on some level as well?

 

[Whom_Gods_Annoy]

When my white friends say something racist I remind them about it, and they do the same for me. We correct it , no proble. No need to apologize. Often they're very subtle micro aggressions.

Sure, but what I'm asking is does the poster still consider their white friends to be racist and remind them they are so even if they have progressed past those micro aggression ect.

 

[Nepenthe]

I think the real question is why is he asking about non-white, non-American ethnicities though this whole argument originated from a teacher's lesson in Oklahoma about what is ostensibly an American-centric point of view? This is honestly never any better than Detroit deflections when discussing police brutality.

 

[Whom_Gods_Annoy]

I think the real question is why is he asking about non-white, non-American ethnicities though this whole argument originated from a teacher's lesson in Oklahoma about what is ostensibly an American-centric point of view? This is honestly never any better than Detroit deflections when discussing police brutality.

Because the topic evolved beyond just America when people started saying racism wasn't a thing before Columbus hopped across the pond. Which, as me and a few others have noted, is false.

 

[Ghostmaster]

Yes, this affects non-white people as well. Our society and culture values whiteness above all else. This makes PoC feel inferior and ultimately concede that light skin is superior. Because our culture values it. It takes a tremendous about of effort for a person of color to break out of this thinking. It is done in such a way that it's highly likely that white people feel superior even on an subconscious level. No one said that the forces of white supremacy and racism affects only white people. But for the sake of the discussion is makes white people racist. Not all white people support Trump, but if you bothered to read the studies, white people of all political stripes have a pro- white bias. There are forces here that are racist that have nothing to do with the overt kind of racism of Trump. "Small" things like thinking black people feel less pain. That can matter when you apply to be a cop and think a black man can survive at 12 shots. Ultimately, white people made this culture to begin with. They get the most flack for it because it is their responsibility to kill it. But they won't, because they stand to value in some way from it. For years, the drug war was used to cast black people and Latinos and Asians as drug users and drug addicts. But once white people start to become drug addicts through painkiller use, suddenly it's a crisis and the drug war is called into question. Suddenly drug addiction is a sad thing with real victims. "We all make mistakes." But that didn't stop white people from casting people of color as drug addicts. "Those people are low lives." Because white people live in a goddamn bubble until it effects white people. Because white people and white society is racist in a society that mollycoddled their values as well themselves.

This is a good post, but the problem, as it has always been since the dawn of time, is that this is a problem with human society in general, not with a specific race.

It is a lot of posters on GAF that are living in bubbles rather than white people.

There is no such thing as removing privilege, the majority will have privilege over minorities in 90% of the cases. The 10% is reserved for those rare years and times when the country is experiencing such growth and prosperity or such dire threat from an external force that societal conflict becomes both counter-productive and meaningless.

The reason for that is simple, the rich and powerful are a minority themselves and when the country starts sliding down the blame and focus inevitably shifts to minorities (whether they be religious or racial minorities) so that the majority doesn't focus their rage and ire on those actually responsible.

A lot of people tend to forget that a lot of Jews escaped to Germany to escape Russian Pogroms and for a time life in Germany was definitely far better than the ones they used to have. But once Germany started going down the drain after WW 1 it all started to change, people tend to put all the blame on Hitler but forget that he had ample support from some of the rich and reputable families in Germany at that time and even some Western forces, as they both would rather have supported a Nationalist who would hunt Jews than a possibility of a communist uprising that could endanger them.

The maxim "Might makes right" has been one of the best to describe both the history of mankind and the development of mankind's society in general.

This might sound bleak, but as long as the powerful can prey on human selfishness (and being that selfishness is born of one of the most vital human instincts - self-preservation, it is unlikely that this will ever not be the case), the minorities will never achieve parity with the majority, and the moment they do they should be wary of what might come next.

The one hope is that one day we achieve the level of progress and splendor that makes pitting humans against each other pointless and fruitless, but whether we ever get there is a big question.

 

[MistakenMobius]

White peoole control the world, make no mistake. This is the first I've heard of it. Did Arabs conduct studies of evolution through "science" and study skeletons of different races and come to the conclusion that white people are inferior? When Arabs had white slaves rape white women and infect them with all manner of diseases and sti's that produced foul smell, which factors into the modern day stereotype that white people smell bad?

Siege of Vienna, battle of Poitier, marrochinate...
History doesn't start with the USA.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/06/201362472519107286.html

Do Arabs have the power to travel the world after winning WWII and spread hate to areas that aren't familiar with cultures?

You mean like Paris, Brussels, countless attack in Iraq, Syria by third generation migrants?

I'm sure the people in Korea are happy Arabs told them about white face minstrel shows that they still now happily conduct. Arabs certainly traveled the world and told everyone that white people are thieves, so now when you visit Japan white people will be followed by a Japanese shop keeper in case of theft.

Travel a little bit, you would be surprised how people can be fucking racist without being white. Han people being chased by angry Algerian because are "stealing" their job.
Meeting Ethiopians oil worker that fled Libya saying that Ghaddhafi was at least protecting them.
USA have fucked up race relationship and clearly the system is stacked against black people. But in the outside world, people can hate each other without European intervention.

For the record, Arabs are considered Caucasian.

Caucasian is not white otherwise profiling wouldn't exist.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Do you make sure to remind your white friends they will always be "just a little bit racist" because they are born white even if they have undone their white supremacist conditioning like you hope they do? You certainly don't want to make them feel like they have actually overcome societal pressures and barriers right?

I think someone with that kind of history will be well to remember that undoing that baggage takes a life time and we will never fully escape. I sometimes I hate my own being black myself. They will never fully escape white supremacist society but in trying to do their part to end it they are valued as my friend and not racist. The problem is a lot of white people think they're doing their part and are still racist.

 

[Infinite]

I think someone with that kind of history will be well to remember that undoing that baggage takes a life time and we will never fully escape. I sometimes I hate my own being black myself. They will never fully escape white supremacist society but in trying to do their part to end it they are valued as my friend and not racist. The problem is a lot of white people think they're doing their part and are still racist.

That's because they think it's racism is a fucking on and off switch.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

That's because they think it's racism is a fucking on and off switch.

Yup.

 

[Whom_Gods_Annoy]

I think someone with that kind of history will be well to remember that undoing that baggage takes a life time and we will never fully escape. I sometimes I hate my own being black myself. They will never fully escape white supremacist society but in trying to do their part to end it they are valued as my friend and not racist. The problem is a lot of white people think they're doing their part and are still racist.

Fair enough. I may not fully agree with it but I haven't walked in your shoes so I can respect your opinion.

When do you believe white people will no longer be inherently racist from birth?