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[Cindi Mayweather]

Your ears? GAFs? I know it will on many peoples. I find that sad though as if you cannot go through life seeing people as individuals you will miss out on a lot of what makes humanity/life great.

White people have the benefit of being "individuals" that other groups aren't. Ultimately, we as a society contribute to these ideas, whether black, white, Asian, Latino. Due to the forces that operate within the system one cannot simply opt out. It is a cultural meme and emphasizing the individual makes someone come off as if they're some special snowflake impervious to societies influences. The argument falls on deaf ears because it brings a nearly irrelevant talking point to the discussion that makes it all about you, and this has nothing to do with you.

 

[Audioboxer]

White people have the benefit of being "individuals" that other groups aren't. Ultimately, we as a society contribute to these ideas, whether black, white, Asian, Latino. Due to the forces that operate within the system one cannot simply opt out. It is a cultural meme and emphasizing the individual makes someone come off as if they're some special snowflake impervious to societies influences.

You miss my point. I'm talking about seeing your fellow human beings as individuals in your life. Whether it be walking down the street, going out clubbing or even talking to people on GAF. You're still making it about white people vs black people. The special snowflake remark just makes me think you aren't grasping what I'm saying either.

If you are and that is your response I just feel a bit sad. Life has obviously influenced how you feel, and I'm sorry if you've been put through the ringer, but I do hope for your own well-being you can think more optimistically about your opportunities interacting with other humans. It's why I find "100% of x are y" statements troubling, it really does heavily influence bridges to be burned so badly I walk away thinking there is fuck all hope for some people. If a teacher can go as far to influence a student to think so much despair around skin colour, the argument can eat itself and actually aid in humanity forever being divided.

The battle of bringing down systemic racism in government is going to be a long one, one which will probably still be going on once we die. However the battle for you as an individual to see humanity as individuals is one you can fight and win within your lifetime. It really doesn't help to just chuck all white people into a room, and all black people into the other room. That in itself is a form of segregation of your mind. Life is a bit more complex than that and the white and black people often mix and visit each others rooms. Which is how it should be as we're all just human beings. None of us chose our skin colour. Ironically as well if you believe in evolution like I do we all started off in Africa anyway, or most of us did. Earliest traces of what we refer to as humans have been found in Africa. Skin pigmentation has heavily been influenced by geography as well, again something not under our control. Nature and the weather controls that. That's all skin colour is, pigmentation. It's literally that boring and basic. Skin colour is pretty much a side effect of being human and living on earth. A person shouldn't be defined as a biological consequence of humanity. Unfortunately yes, they have been and continue to be. History shows the absolutely diabolical treatment of people due to skin colour, even when we knew biology inside out. I mean it still goes on today, so even in the face of all the education necessary people are still segregating based upon something no one chooses and is just part of being human.

I'm pale as a sheet, but I live in a country fairly northern and my ancestors as far back as I've traced them have too. There is a huge lack of sun and vitamin D in Scotland lol. Not quite as bad as some of the Scandinavian countries though.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

You miss my point. I'm talking about seeing your fellow human beings as individuals in your life. Whether it be walking down the street, going out clubbing or even talking to people on GAF. You're still making it about white people vs black people. The special snowflake remark just makes me think you aren't grasping what I'm saying either.

Living under the assumption that white people are individuals is potentially dangerous. I and other black people don't have the luxury of judging white people on an individual basis. When I have kids I will teach my kids not to put their hands in their pockets when going into a store and more, the same things that my parents taught me and that that their parents taught them. What do I say or do? "Maybe that white person won't think I stole this because I don't have a bag. Maybe as an individual they'll be cool?" Nah, That ain't worth the risk. In a society that imprisons black peoole at mass rates, throws black people in jail for marijuana even in states where it is legal, in a society where black people are murdered and entire details of their history are published to character assassinate and justify their death, in an era where Mexicans and Latinos are considered a leech on the system they uphold by doing jobs no one else will do, in a culture that makes all Muslims into an enemy worthy of spying on, think it's okay to make shows about mail ordering an Asian bride, and the rise of hateful Internet comments white people, white society, and white culture have more than a lifetime to prove to me that they deserve to be treated as individuals. As far as I'm concerned, their individuality status is earned and proved themselves as atypical to be treated as an individual by me. I will be respectful and nice, but you will be kept at arms length until you show yourself to be atypical. Until then you are a typical white person. Why? Because you never know what kind of white person you're gonna get.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Here's my example...

An elementary school teacher in Maryland is facing disciplinary action for using some of her students as props in derogatory and racist photos she posted to her Instagram account, reports Atlanta Black Star.

Kelly Forostiak, who teaches at Deer Park Elementary School in Baltimore County, has been called on the carpet for the pictures. In one of them she calls her students “my little assh*les,” and in another she dressed up a young black child in a sombrero and fake mustache, identifying him as “This is an African American Mexican.”

When you have a White teacher doing shit like this and the district defends them by refusing to state what actual disciplinary actions were taken and ensuring they do NOT lose their job...that to many of us is a clear example of White systemic racism looking out for their own regardless of the impact it has on Black people.

Are all White people racist? Obviously not. But it's hard to tell who's who sometimes when the racists tend to get protected at nearly every turn by other White people. Who will fume if you claim they are being racist. But won't fume at actual racism.

 

[Audioboxer]

Living under the assumption that white people are individuals is potentially dangerous. I and other black people don't have the luxury of judging white people on an individual basis. When I have kids I will teach my kids not to put their hands in their pockets when going into a store and more, the same things that my parents taught me and that that their parents taught them. What do I say or do? "Maybe that white person won't think I stole this because I don't have a bag. Maybe as an individual they'll be cool?" Nah, That ain't worth the risk. In a society that imprisons black peoole are mass rates, throws black people in jail for marijuana even in states where it is legal, in a society where black people are murdered and entire details of their history are published to character assassinate and justify their death, in an era where Mexicans and Latinos are considered a leech on the system they uphold by doing jobs no one else will do, in a culture that makes all Muslims into an enemy worthy of spying on, think it's okay to make shows about mail ordering an Asian bride, and the rise of hateful Internet comments white people, white society, and white culture have more than a lifetime to prove to me that they deserve to be treated as individuals. As far as I'm concerned, their individuality status is earned and proved themselves as atypical to be treated as an individual by me. I will be respectful and nice, but you will be kept at arms length until you show yourself to be atypical. Until then you are a typical white person. Why? Because you never know what kind of white person you're gonna get.

I really am sorry you think this way. I don't want to say you don't have genuine reasons to, as it's your life and it's the experiences you've lived but it is a genuinely hard way of living for me to read.

To me I can only imagine flipping around what you're saying and trying to say "I, as in a white person, don't have the luxury to judge brown people as individuals...". You know, like some people who voted in the Brexit vote.

I think that is a hugely damaging way for society to think no matter where you live in the world. I can empathise with hurt that you've had in your life but we'll just have to agree to disagree with the way your framing going about handling said hurt. I will forever think everyone has a claim to be judged as an individual regardless of their skin colour. That is not some white privilege way of thinking in me, to me it's just decent humanitarian thinking. As I spoke about at length in this topic earlier treating fight or flight reasonably is an important thing to do. It's okay to be cautious if someone in a hooded top is approaching you, even if you're very likely to be okay. I just don't think fight or flight applied like a wide casting net to skin colour is a reasonable way to react. Teaching a kid to fear the "white man" just doesn't seem like a reasonable way to discuss such complex issues surrounding race. One could say it is rather racist. However I know you've already said in this topic you don't think it's possible to be racist to a white person...

 

[Hogger]

What's his username?

Ha! Good lord.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

To me I can only imagine flipping around what you're saying and trying to say "I, as in a white person, don't have the luxury to judge Brown people as individuals...". You know, like some people who voted in the Brexit vote.

I can only speak for myself and I know you weren't discussing this with me but from my perspective it's not that I'm assuming the White person is racist but I *am* assuming that because of the color of my skin that I will be *perceived* a certain way that a White person typically wouldn't.

So I'm not thinking "Oh I bet this White person is racist!" but more like "I know exactly what an overwhelming majority of White people think about me so I have to take that into account".

I think trying to flip it around doesn't work as it doesn't take into account that Black people as a group don't have systemic control of society nor have used that control to disadvantage White people as a group for centuries.

 

[Audioboxer]

I can only speak for myself and I know you weren't discussing this with me but from my perspective it's not that I'm assuming the White person is racist but I *am* assuming that because of the color of my skin that I will be *perceived* a certain way that a White person typically wouldn't.

So I'm not thinking "Oh I bet this White person is racist!" but more like "I know exactly what an overwhelming majority of White people think about me so I have to take that into account".

I think trying to flip it around doesn't work as it doesn't take into account that Black people as a group don't have systemic control of society nor have used that control to disadvantage White people as a group for centuries.

I understand fight or flight responses for minorities, it's just more as I said I don't think such statements as this below are healthy for humanity

Until then you are a typical white person. Why? Because you never know what kind of white person you're gonna get.

Hence why I said "typical brown person" or "typical black person" wouldn't fly nicely for most. Humans are humans no matter how much you want to segregate/stereotype based on skin colour. I also know history shows far more abuse coming one way, but there are ways to be more nuanced about this. I've been respectful to Cindi, but we just have different world views. Which is okay, we do live in vastly different locations. I think it is largely living in an American society rife with racism, and in recent times more police murders than a normal person can stomach, that can produce such black and white thinking. Excuse such a saying in this topic but I think it is a relevant use of that phrase.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I understand fight or flight responses for minorities, it's just more as I said I don't think such statements as this below are healthy for humanity

I'd argue that global White supremacy is far far less healthy for humanity than the means Black people utilize to negate/avoid its impact...

 

[Audioboxer]

I'd argue that global White supremacy is far far less healthy for humanity than the means Black people utilize to negate/avoid its impact...

As do I. I'm simply debating some means being used as the alternative shouldn't be a wild wild west either to do or say anything. Two wrongs don't make a right. Nor do genuinely innocent people need to pay for the crimes of others who share their skin colour.

 

[lightskintwin]

As do I. I'm simply debating some means being used as the alternative shouldn't be a wild wild west either to do or say anything. Two wrongs don't make a right. Nor do genuinely innocent people need to pay for the crimes of others who share their skin colour.

You completely miss the point and continue to draw this false equivalency. This is why it's so exhausting discussing racism with White people.

 

[Audioboxer]

You completely miss the point and continue to draw this false equivalency. This is why it's so exhausting discussing racism with White people.

I speak for myself, not white people. However if the posters above talking to me feel as you do I will stop discussing anything with them. Until then I'll see it as they are wishing to debate and interact with me.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

As do I. I'm simply debating some means being used as the alternative shouldn't be a wild wild west either to do or say anything. Two wrongs don't make a right..

I feel you. I'm just pointing out it's a reaction to poor treatment. Not an innate sense of superiority or thinking another race is inferior. That's the difference. That's why any "flipping it" just doesn't make sense and comes off as hollow.

Nor do genuinely innocent people need to pay for the crimes of others who share their skin colour.

I really wish people would stop saying this. No Black person is looking for retribution. When the slaves were freed mofos thought we'd get some guns and just go get some revenge and all we wanted to do is live in peace. No, it's not about paying for the crimes of others. It's about being cognizant of a system that was and still is entirely designed to benefit you to the detriment of others and understanding that you do indeed have a responsibility to concede that reality and strive to change it. That's it. Once again, only speaking for myself.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I really am sorry you think this way. I don't want to say you don't have genuine reasons to, as it's your life and it's the experiences you've lived but it is a genuinely hard way of living for me to read.

To me I can only imagine flipping around what you're saying and trying to say "I, as in a white person, don't have the luxury to judge brown people as individuals...". You know, like some people who voted in the Brexit vote.

I think that is a hugely damaging way for society to think no matter where you live in the world. I can empathise with hurt that you've had in your life but we'll just have to agree to disagree with the way your framing going about handling said hurt. I will forever think everyone has a claim to be judged as an individual regardless of their skin colour. That is not some white privilege way of thinking in me, to me it's just decent humanitarian thinking. As I spoke about at length in this topic earlier treating fight or flight reasonably is an important thing to do. It's okay to be cautious if someone in a hooded top is approaching you, even if you're very likely to be okay. I just don't think fight or flight applied like a wide casting net to skin colour is a reasonable way to react. Teaching a kid to fear the "white man" just doesn't seem like a reasonable way to discuss such complex issues surrounding race. One could say it is rather racist. However I know you've already said in this topic you don't think it's possible to be racist to a white person...

This position is old as hell and hardly unique.

Mammoth put it more nicely than me but here's a quote from WEB Dubois on trusting whites:

You do not and you know that you do not, much as you want to; yet you rise and lie and say you do; you must say it for her salvation and the world’s you repeat that she must trust them, that most white folks are honest, and all the while you are lying and every level, silent eye there knows you are lying, and miserably you sit and lie on, to the greater glory of God. [W.E.B. Du Bois, Darkwater: Voices from Within the Veil 102 (1920) (Humanity Books, 2003

I think the reaction is a pretty natural response.

 

[Audioboxer]

I feel you. I'm just pointing out it's a reaction to poor treatment. Not an innate sense of superiority or thinking another race is inferior.


Nor do genuinely innocent people need to pay for the crimes of others who share their skin colour.

I really wish people would stop saying this. No Black person is looking for retribution. When the slaves were freed mofos thought we'd get some guns and just go get some revenge and all we wanted to do is live in peace. No, it's not about paying for the crimes of others. It's about being cognizant of a system that was and still is entirely designed to benefit you to the detriment of others and understanding that you do indeed have a responsibility to concede that reality and strive to change it. That's it. Once again, only speaking for myself.

I don't think you are saying that. More so the teacher saying because he had a certain upbringing 100% of whites are racist. Not every white person has to pay for his way of thinking. It's up to him to sort that out, not me. If I can help educate people escape upbringings sign me up to help. I'll be doing that in therapy. However that is a huge difference from saying I should take a share of the blame for their upbringing. When Cindi says "typical white person" it just echoes the thoughts of the seeming thoughts of the professor.

This position is old as hell and hardly unique.

Mammoth put it more nicely than me but here's a quote from WEB Dubois on trusting whites:



I think the reaction is a pretty natural response.

I really don't know what to say to that. All I can do is wish you all the best at this point.

Everybody knows racism is bad. Everybody knows two wrongs don't make a right. I don't understand the point of reiterating things everybody knows and agrees upon. It constantly bogs down the conversation.

For enough, you weren't part of the discussion I was having with others so it just came a bit out of the left field you jumped in midway to say that to me.

 

[lightskintwin]

I speak for myself, not white people. However if the posters above talking to me feel as you do I will stop discussing anything with them.

Everybody knows racism is bad. Everybody knows two wrongs don't make a right. I don't understand the point of reiterating things everybody knows and agrees upon. It constantly bogs down the conversation.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I don't think you are saying that. More so the teacher saying because he had a certain upbringing 100% of whites are racist. Not every white person has to pay for his way of thinking. It's up to him to sort that out, not me. If I can help educate people escape upbringings sign me up to help. I'll be doing that in therapy. However that is a huge difference from saying I should take a share of the blame for their upbringing. When Cindi says "typical white person" it just echoes the thoughts of the seeming thoughts of the professor.

I just wish people as offended and in such deep thought over this professor actually gave as much of a shit of actual racist conduct in schools...

Like the one I just linked a few posts ago.

 

[4 is a cutie]

I think this can be applied to a lot of lower class members (minorities, women, etc) who've lived their lives seeing and reading up on how the higher class generally fucks with them on a daily basis. Regardless of what public advances have been made and what type of jokes earn you wagged fingers, a lower class member knows that they can just as easily wake up the next day and encounter some fuckery heading towards them. While I personally don't walk with hatred towards a group of people based off what I think they might do, I can't deny I assume negative things to be true in order to avoid trouble from potential bullies.

 

[Audioboxer]

I just wish people as offended and in such deep thought over this professor actually gave as much of a shit of actual racist conduct in schools...

Like the one I just linked a few posts ago.

But many are? All of you already know as I've said I'm purposefully going into a field of work with the sole aim to care for and help rehabilitate people. I would think it is kind of obvious that extends to every single human being who wants psychological help. I will literally aim to help anyone across any topic.

What I debate and discuss I do on GAF because it's a message board and it's easy to post a comment online. What I try to do in my offline life to make the world a better place, or at least have me interact meaningfully with the world isn't simple to convey in a few hundred words across a few posts. Although as I said I clearly gave my background in this topic. Heck I started off by discussing at length how it is okay to feel a fight or flight response. That extends to all humans and across a whole manner of things. It's just about how you appropriately react. Precisely because humans are individuals and behaving like everyone wearing a hoodie is going to mug you is probably not a response that will cause you to act or think appropriately. In my opinion that extends to not believing everyone of a certain skin colour will act in a certain way. However yes it's understandable and fine due to influences, education and your personal life experiences to have such a response to seeing a white person. As I just said above though can you rationalise people being individuals or are you just going to live your whole life putting everyone into a stereotype? You can do as you please, especially if it does make your life easier, for the sake of discussion and debate though there isn't much point in anyone expecting on GAF to just have everyone think like they do.

There you go, that's how I got to this post. I don't live in America, heck I live in quite a privileged little country that largely celebrates diversity and is ran by a Government up here all for it. The Scottish have our own government, even although the UK government is ultimately in charge. So yes I know I'm in a place of privilege. If anything though I think it's important to show some parts of the world are doing better than others. The battle for humanity is trying to show that it can be done, that we can live in harmony as a species. If we never prop up and celebrate where diversity works then it is in my opinion you get led down paths of despair where as the teacher said, 100% of everything being a problem becomes a proposed reality. As much as we want to call out all the bullshit and drag people across coals for discrimination why can't we also point out it genuinely isn't all doom and gloom in the world? Good people and good things happen. It's important to remember, and hope we can work towards a future where there is far more good than what we currently have. It does require working together though, and while some insular behaviour is more than understandable as this isn't an equal fight (there are far fewer white people trying to eradicate racism than black), there is allies on this side of the fence. Meaning there are white people fighting back against racism, and many of these people aren't racists or playing some deceitful game. They are just kind caring human beings like me that see skin colour for what it really is. Something we don't choose that is just a biological phenomenon.

Even culture doesn't have to be defined by skin colour. As in you can appreciate and even want to be a part of a culture even if you are the "wrong" colour. However yes I know I might get shot down for cultural appropriation now. However I see culture as something most people want to share, if not at least educate about. There is respectful ways for people to learn and be apart of cultures they didn't have the luxury of being born into. Again, hope that humanity can enjoy life together and not be divisive and totally insular. Culture is another topic but I feel it's important to touch on as I know some people do see their skin colour as more than just what I boil it down to, which is science and biology.

 

[Kinitari]

I just can't understand the mindset, the ideology that justifies and extols the virtues of categorizing and generalizing someone with extremely negative moral judgement, as long as they are white.

It doesn't fly with me, and I don't think you ever have to do it. My major contention with racism and ethnicity/skin colour based generalization isn't that it inconveniences me, or anyone else in particular, but that it's wrong and bad thinking.

It's bad thinking because race is a technically fuzzy construct, in that genetically it gets wonky and doesn't really exist. Making assumptions about someones character because of their skin colour doesn't work if the logic is "genetically, people of X ethnicity do Y".

It's bad thinking if you even want to take it to something more cultural. Do we want to say that because culturally, Koreans approach education in a more intense way than they do here in Canada, it's safe to assume that the next Korean you see is going to be smarter than the next non-Korean? Should you base any real decisions off of that assumption, like in your work or your personal life?

And as I was skimming the thread, I saw someone say something along the lines of "White people invented racism, so they need to carry the burden of being aware of their own racism" or some such which... if I am going to be frank, is not only just wrong (maybe they invented the word, but they absolutely did not invent prejudice against people because of where they are from or the colour of their skin), it's some absolutely abhorrent sins-of-your-father-original-sin bullshit and I hope no one would actually try to use in any serious argument for why someone should do anything.

I think if we believe that judging or generalizing someone for the colour of their skin is bad, then it is bad regardless of what skin colour you are using. If we think this is something that was 'invented by white people', what does it say when we are trying so hard to uphold this standard and mentality?

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

The problem is that you celebrate diversity but are unable to reconcile that the premise of diversity, due to its very nature and history of human socialization, makes it messy. Diversity was not going to be a quick cure all. Europe is learning right now that diversity brings unique conflicts and is hard to implement cleanly. This image of diversity being happy and rainbows and fun is a myth. What we're arguing is the very legacy of the diversity you value.

 

[Audioboxer]

The problem is that you celebrate diversity but are unable to reconcile that the premise of diversity, due to its very nature and history of human socialization, makes it messy. Diversity was not going to be a quick cure all. Europe is learning right now that diversity brings unique conflicts and is hard to implement cleanly. This image of diversity being happy and rainbows and fun is a myth. What we're arguing is the very legacy of the diversity you value.

I do know that. History has taught me well. I also don't think it's all rainbows. It clearly isn't. There is huge issues even trying to get people to integrate. Some simply don't want to.

It's largely all we have though, unless society just decides it largely wants to be insular and group itself based on things such as skin colour. Grouping will never go away, people will do it for cultural reasons, for religious reasons, for political reasons and yes for racial reasons.

I just wish for much better balances than what we have in the world. It's incredibly sad how divided humanity is. As it is in 2016, people are literally killed, beaten and mocked based on things like skin colour, gender and sexual preferences. I value humans being humans and I won't feel shame for hope and visions of us all getting along better. I'll do what I can in the miniscule amount of years of time I get to be alive in.

I also get America's pain in politics in 2016 that Trump is running for president at a time where cops are being let off with murder. It's a grim situation. Not every country is America though, better situations can exist than what you guys are going through right now. I guess that is a large part of what I was trying to convey. Not that it suddenly makes your situation better, it sort of comes across like rubbing salt on your wounds by saying I somehow have it better. That's not the intention though, if anything it's literally just to try and show humanity can do it better.

 

[Spaced Harrier]

Your American experience is not the global one.

Your all just talking at ends neither understanding the other.

 

[Infinite]

I just can't understand the mindset, the ideology that justifies and extols the virtues of categorizing and generalizing someone with extremely negative moral judgement, as long as they are white.

It doesn't fly with me, and I don't think you ever have to do it. My major contention with racism and ethnicity/skin colour based generalization isn't that it inconveniences me, or anyone else in particular, but that it's wrong and bad thinking.

It's bad thinking because race is a technically fuzzy construct, in that genetically it gets wonky and doesn't really exist. Making assumptions about someones character because of their skin colour doesn't work if the logic is "genetically, people of X ethnicity do Y".

It's bad thinking if you even want to take it to something more cultural. Do we want to say that because culturally, Koreans approach education in a more intense way than they do here in Canada, it's safe to assume that the next Korean you see is going to be smarter than the next non-Korean? Should you base any real decisions off of that assumption, like in your work or your personal life?

And as I was skimming the thread, I saw someone say something along the lines of "White people invented racism, so they need to carry the burden of being aware of their own racism" or some such which... if I am going to be frank, is not only just wrong (maybe they invented the word, but they absolutely did not invent prejudice against people because of where they are from or the colour of their skin), it's some absolutely abhorrent sins-of-your-father-original-sin bullshit and I hope no one would actually try to use in any serious argument for why someone should do anything.

I think if we believe that judging or generalizing someone for the colour of their skin is bad, then it is bad regardless of what skin colour you are using. If we think this is something that was 'invented by white people', what does it say when we are trying so hard to uphold this standard and mentality?

This is all platitudes with no connection to reality.

 

[jWILL253]

Your American experience is not the global one.

Your all just talking at ends neither understanding the other.

I thought the Brexit thing and all these fascist movements popping up right now would've stopped this kind of logic in its tracks.

 

[Kinitari]

This is all platitudes with no connection to reality.

What does this criticism even mean? Is there anything I said that you disagree with? I live my life by these 'platitudes'. And as far as I understood, they were the same ideals that so many other people around me fought for and believed in. It doesn't seem like it here.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Your American experience is not the global one.

Your all just talking at ends neither understanding the other.

Nope. France bans burqa bikinis, Europeans regularly throw bananas at black soccer stars, Brexit and its aftermath, the continued treatment of First Nation people in Canada, the rise of fascism in Europe in the wake of xenophobia. Nah. White people are getting a global side eye if anything. Spilling that tea, baby. That said if I were to choose a white majority nation it would be Canada. At least they don't value a disgusting gun culture.

I do know that. History has taught me well. I also don't think it's all rainbows. It clearly isn't. There is huge issues even trying to get people to integrate. Some simply don't want to.

It's largely all we have though, unless society just decides it largely wants to be insular and group itself based on things such as skin colour. Grouping will never go away, people will do it for cultural reasons, for religious reasons, for political reasons and yes for racial reasons.

I just wish for much better balances than what we have in the world. It's incredibly sad how divided humanity is. As it is in 2016, people are literally killed, beaten and mocked based on things like skin colour, gender and sexual preferences. I value humans being humans and I won't feel shame for hope and visions of us all getting along better. I'll do what I can in the miniscule amount of years of time I get to be alive in.

I also get America's pain in politics in 2016 that Trump is running for president at a time where cops are being let off with murder. It's a grim situation. Not every country is America though, better situations can exist than what you guys are going through right now. I guess that is a large part of what I was trying to convey. Not that it suddenly makes your situation better, it sort of comes across like rubbing salt on your wounds by saying I somehow have it better. That's not the intention though, if anything it's literally just to try and show humanity can do it better.

You certainly have more faith in humanity than me!

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

This position is old as hell and hardly unique.

Mammoth put it more nicely than me but here's a quote from WEB Dubois on trusting whites:

I think the reaction is a pretty natural response.

Do you believe nothing has changed since Dubois' time regarding race relations in this country? If not, what do you think has improved?

Am I incorrect in interpreting that your general position is that white privilege and institutional racism have resulted in a situation where stereotyping and bigotry against whites is rationally justified on the basis of survival? Essentially then we live in a society where whites can be non-bigoted but are racist by default and erroneously conflate the terms racism and bigotry because racist society has managed to confuse the definitions in the last 50 years, yet non-whites are justified in being bigoted but then can't be racist because said bigotry is not supported by societal racism.

If I'm not grossly misrepresenting this - and I apologize for being slow on the uptake here if all of this should be self-evident - I feel this may be the foundation for so much discussion cross purposes here. It's not so much that whites want this subject to be about them as it is they are raised in a society where the central definitions of the narrative have been co-opted in such a way that non-whites can't even broach the issue without first having to deal with a wall of incorrectly loaded semantics.

Basically whites don't even understand that they've been handed their position in the conversation before they enter it.

 

[Infinite]

What does this criticism even mean? Is there anything I said that you disagree with? I live my life by these 'platitudes'. And as far as I understood, they were the same ideals that so many other people around me fought for and believed in. It doesn't seem like it here.

We still got a lot of work to do and ways to go before we can be where you think we somehow are. As I posted before, reality aka statistics and studies, says that white people distrust black people, think we're dumb, think we less tolerant to pain, less empathetic to our pain, and less likely to give a fuck up fixing the criminal justice as long as it disproportionately effects black bodies. I'm going to have black children one day and I would love to teach them that life is all sunshine and rainbows and we can all get along with one another but I can't because I have to teach my children how to survive in a white supremacist society we live. That means teaching them how to interact with an officer and as Cindi said teaching them not to go to the grocery store having their hands in their pockets because people don't trust black skin. I gotta teach them that they must work twice as hard to barely achieve. I wish I didn't have to do all of this but I don't have a genie in a bottle and it's not my birthday.

 

[Kinitari]

We still got a lot of work to do and ways to go before we can be where you think we somehow are.

What I said has nothing to do with where 'I think we somehow are' - I am talking about the thought processes and ideas being perpetuated in this thread and challenging them for being faulty.

As I posted before, reality aka statistics and studies, says that white people distrust black people, think we're dumb, think we less tolerant to pain, less empathetic to our pain, and less likely to give a fuck up fixing the criminal justice as long as it disproportionately effects black bodies. I'm going to have black children one day and I would love to teach them that life is all sunshine and rainbows and we can all get along with one another but I can't because I have to teach my children how to survive in a white supremacist society we live.

Statistics can be used to say a lot of things about of different groups - we can go about the statistic likelihood of a lot of things based off of the colour of someone's skin, and I would challenge -anyone- who would then use these statistics to make any generalizations or decisions about how to interact with said person - would you?

That means teaching them how to interact with an officer and as Cindi said teaching them not to go to the grocery store having their hands in their pockets because people don't trust black skin. I gotta teach them that they must work twice as hard to barely achieve. I wish I didn't have to do all of this but I don't have a genie in a bottle and it's not my birthday.

Do you have to teach them to distrust people because of the colour of their skin? Will you teach them about how all white people are racist? Will you tell them that white people are not to be trusted? If not white, any other colour? Because that's what my post was talking about, not whatever tangent you're on about here.

 

[gfxtwin]

Infinite posted a study on the last page about white people thinking black people literally feeling less pain. White scientists would damage black babies brains with the assumption that black people have less pain. Of course, this would have a 100% mortality rate, but the thinking was that black people are super people capable of feats and are thus, not human. Black women were experimented on without anesthesia. White doctors today for instance under prescribe black children medicine because they assume we feel less pain. So yes, a cop might feel "threatened" even if you're just an average height black person, or even the same height as them, because of your skin color, and use lethal force.

Medical Apartheid is a great book to read as a starting point.

Holy fuck. No words.

https://news.virginia.edu/content/study-links-disparities-pain-management-racial-bias

Studies show that black people are routinely under-treated for pain in relation to white people and to WHO standards due to misconceptions by people, including medical professionals, that we can biologically handle pain better than white people. =/

Wooooow. I always wondered why police were so quick on the draw to not only shoot black males, but empty clips in them as though they thought they were up against Simon from Meteor Man, but didn't know the full sinister context for those behaviors and attitudes until now. Some forms of racism I can almost understand (when white people complain about being criticized for microinvalidations and micro aggressions that they are not consciously aware of) but I will never understand the beliefs in there being genetic differences between people based on race. I was listening to a university professor on a recent episode of the Sam Harris podcast (Gad Saad, I think) who seemed to suggest there was scientific validity in that and Sam seemed to agree. Maybe it was an attempt at dry humor (Sam Harris has a deeper understanding of psychology, science and dry wit than I ever will, I admit) but still pretty disgusting.

 

[Infinite]

What I said has nothing to do with where 'I think we somehow are' - I am talking about the thought processes and ideas being perpetuated in this thread and challenging them for being faulty.

What thoughts and ideas? That we live in a white supremacist society? Because thats kinda what this is. Or you mean the one where we all have racial blind spots and biases as a consequence ofbeing indoctrinated in a racist white supremacist society? Because a there's no getting around that one either.

Statistics can be used to say a lot of things about of different groups - we can go about the statistic likelihood of a lot of things based off of the colour of someone's skin, and I would challenge -anyone- who would then use these statistics to make any generalizations or decisions about how to interact with said person - would you?

So what are you saying here? You going to choose to ignore valid studies because it contrasts with your world view? That's being intellectually dishonest and fallacious.

Do you have to teach them to distrust people because of the colour of their skin? Will you teach them about how all white people are racist? Will you tell them that white people are not to be trusted? If not white, any other colour? Because that's what my post was talking about, not whatever tangent you're on about here.

I will teach them that because of their skin they will have to operated in the ways I detailed in order to survive in the white supremacist society we currently have. I'm not sure what tangent you're on about.

 

[Kinitari]

What thoughts and ideas? That we live in a white supremacist society? Because thats kinda what this is. Or you mean the one where we all have racial blind spots and biases as a consequence ofbeing indoctrinated in a racist white supremacist society? Because a there's no getting around that one either.

No? I'm challenging the ones that are justifying generalizing people who are white. I thought that was pretty clear? Do you think it's okay to do so?

So what are you saying here? You going to choose to ignore valid studies because it contrasts with your world view? That's being intellectually dishonest and fallacious.

I am saying that if you want to use studies that you posted to justify prejudice and pre-judgment of white people because they are white, that sort of mindset is the sort of shit I think we all need to continually fight against, because it's used for stuff like... why you should avoid native's in Canada, or why you should distrust them in a shopping mall.

I will teach them that because of their skin they will have to operated in the ways I detailed in order to survive in the white supremacist society we currently have. I'm not sure what tangent you're on about.

Like... did you even read the post that you described as 'all platitudes' - the 'platitudes' were about why you shouldn't generalize white people because generalizing anyone because of the colour of their skin is bad. And then you are all on about how because you'll have black kids they'll have to be taught about how life will be hard for them because they are black. How does that have ANY connection to what I said?

 

[Infinite]

No? I'm challenging the ones that are justifying generalizing people who are white. I thought that was pretty clear? Do you think it's okay to do so?

I am saying that if you want to use studies that you posted to justify prejudice and pre-judgment of white people because they are white, that sort of mindset is the sort of shit I think we all need to continually fight against, because it's used for stuff like... why you should avoid native's in Canada, or why you should distrust them in a shopping mall.


Like... did you even read the post that you described as 'all platitudes' - the 'platitudes' were about why you shouldn't generalize white people because generalizing anyone because of the colour of their skin is bad. And then you are all on about how because you'll have black kids they'll have to be taught about how life will be hard for them because they are black. How does that have ANY connection to what I said?

My first post in this thread was about how the teacher could have been more nuance in making this point. I've said that yes we all have racial biases and blindspots that are conducive to upholding white supremacy as a consequence of living in a white supremacist society. Yes, this includes white people. The studies I've cited support this this and substantiates my argument. I have not wavered from this point. I also believe that poc have to operate differently in such a society because we are not granted the luxury of being seen as individuals. People making a generalization that the white person following them around in the store because they think they are up to something is an assumption made out of survival. That's where I'm criticizing you and point out your platitudes being useless to me in all practicality. Those generalizations are made due to a consequence of existing in a white surpremacist society and made out of survival. I can't share your beliefs, sorry. However we can work towards it. The simple truth is that we aren't there yet and we have to play the game so to speak in order to survive until we get there.

 

[Kinitari]

My first post in this thread was about how the teacher could have been more nuance in making this point. I've said that yes we all have racial biases and blindspots that are conducive to upholding white supremacy as a consequence of living in a white supremacist society. Yes, this includes white people. The studies I've cited support this this and substantiates my argument. I have not wavered from this point. I also believe that poc have to operate differently in such a society because we are not granted the luxury of being seen as individuals. People making a generalization that the white person following them around in the store because they think they are up to something is an assumption made out of survival. That's where I'm criticizing you and point out your platitudes being useless to me in all practicality. Those generalizations are made due to a consequence of existing in a white surpremacist society and made out of survival. I can't share beliefs, sorry. However we can work towards it. The simple truth is that we aren't there yet and we have to play the game so to speak in order to survive until we get there.

So basically, it's okay to generalize white people for now, and hopefully you feel like you won't need to one day?

 

[Infinite]

So basically, it's okay to generalize white people for now, and hopefully you feel like you won't need to one day?

Yep that's exactly what I said

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

This teacher is a real dummy, and the "only institutional racism is racism, so you can't be racist against whites" crowd can get bent, as well. Racism, at its heart, is an ideology that takes for granted that race is a boundary from which societally significant differences arise naturally, and power is not a necessary component to internalize or act on such a value system. Now, it's perfectly reasonable to argue that racism by whites against blacks is, in many contexts, WORSE, given that power differentials can potentiate the inherently toxic effects racism unleashes upon the world, but no converts are won when rhetoric takes a turn for the ridiculous.

 

[Oppo]

Yep that's exactly what I said

if i may jump in for a sec here

i think what Kinitari is getting at (and forgive me if i'm wrong) is the notion of taking someone as an individual - even if, uh, weighting that initial impression - vs letting a generalist posture override any possible shifting of that impression.

so to use examples in the thread - Mammoth said he takes this into account when encountering a white person, but uses that as a starting point, whereas Cindi seems to be indicating an approach that challenges such people to demonstrate an escape from the systemic and assigned box, so to speak.

(for the record i do reject the idea what whites people have a monopoly on slavery and racism; that view is ahistorical, to say the least.)

 

[Cagey]

Here's my example...


When you have a White teacher doing shit like this and the district defends them by refusing to state what actual disciplinary actions were taken and ensuring they do NOT lose their job...that to many of us is a clear example of White systemic racism looking out for their own regardless of the impact it has on Black people.

Are all White people racist? Obviously not. But it's hard to tell who's who sometimes when the racists tend to get protected at nearly every turn by other White people. Who will fume if you claim they are being racist. But won't fume at actual racism.

A damn good point. That literally starts at Home.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

if i may jump in for a sec here

i think what Kinitari is getting at (and forgive me if i'm wrong) is the notion of taking someone as an individual - even if, uh, weighting that initial impression - vs letting a generalist posture override any possible shifting of that impression.

so to use examples in the thread - Mammoth said he takes this into account when encountering a white person, but uses that as a starting point, whereas Cindi seems to be indicating an approach that challenges such people to demonstrate an escape from the systemic and assigned box, so to speak.

(for the record i do reject the idea what whites people have a monopoly on slavery and racism; that view is ahistorical, to say the least.)

I must admit that for my part I do have a small hope in wanting to earnestly help them demonstrate that they have the capability to leave such behaviors behind. It is both hopeful and cynical. My approach is I won't try to educate you beyond basic argumentation to back up my view since it's fruitless but I will have the hope that you earnestly want to try to educate yourself and by that same line of thinking, put in the work and research white racist/supremacist thinking, try to undo these behaviors, and finally spread your thoughts to your fellow white people behind doors. Because they won't listen to me, but they'll definitely listen if you're white. In a way I try to use reverse psychology to pinpoint white peoples racism to hopefully get people who haven't thought and self reflected that they've got work to do. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. It often (re: always) comes off as combative. But the important thing is this: I remain in control. I have been doing this since Ferguson.

 

[Infinite]

if i may jump in for a sec here

i think what Kinitari is getting at (and forgive me if i'm wrong) is the notion of taking someone as an individual - even if, uh, weighting that initial impression - vs letting a generalist posture override any possible shifting of that impression.

so to use examples in the thread - Mammoth said he takes this into account when encountering a white person, but uses that as a starting point, whereas Cindi seems to be indicating an approach that challenges such people to demonstrate an escape from the systemic and assigned box, so to speak.

(for the record i do reject the idea what whites people have a monopoly on slavery and racism; that view is ahistorical, to say the least.)

Kinitari and I are simply at an impasse. They are stuck on arguing that all generalizations are not okay while that's not something I necessarily disagree with it's just something I don't think is important to establish in this context. I'm countering that point with generalizations being necessary for survival. As human beings we make generalizations all the time until we are presented with new information that make our generalizations invalid. It's impossible to treat every new encounter as a individual and unique one. That is folly. Back on this topic, we know all of us having being indoctrinated by society that upholds white supremacy hold racist biases and blind spots that are conducive to white supremacy. I posted studies to substantiate this claim since that position was challenged in this thread. Is it okay to assume the white person following the black man around in the store is assuming they're trying to steal something? I don't think any of it is okay however it happens to be an assumption people make out of necessity, out of survival. This is a symptom of a much bigger sickness and as soon as we cure it then it will cease to be a conflict. That hasn't happened yet and here we are now. I'm not about to start telling people they should solve what is a consequence to a bigger problem without trying to solve that bigger problem.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Kinitari and I are simply at an impasse. They are stuck on arguing that all generalizations are not okay while that's not something I necessarily disagree with it's just something I don't think is important to establish in this context. I'm countering that point with generalizations being necessary for survival. As human beings we make generalizations all the time until we are presented with new information that make our generalizations invalid. It's impossible to treat every new encounter as a individual and unique one. That is folly. Back on this topic, we know all of us having being indoctrinated by society that upholds white supremacy hold racist biases and blind spots that are conducive to white supremacy. I posted studies to substantiate this claim since that position was challenged in this thread. Is it okay to assume the white person following the black man around in the store is assuming they're trying to steal something? I don't think any of it is okay however it happens to be an assumption people make out of necessity, out of survival. This is a symptom of a much bigger sickness and as soon as we cure it then it will cease to be a conflict. That hasn't happened yet and here we are now. I'm not about to start telling people they should solve what is a consequence to a bigger problem without trying to solve that bigger problem.

The bigger problem is global White supremacy and let's be real: Most White people ain't gonna give that up. Ever. And what helps White supremacy keep on truckin' is being more offended at the notion of being racist than actual incidents of racism that destroys lives.

Progress is being made but of course at a snails pace. And truth be told White people get to be judged as individuals. We don't.

 

[AnathemicOne]

Hmmmm, bare with me here as I've a question that mostly spawns from ignorance to which I ask clarification on.

First, let me preface this that I am Asian American. Now with that out of the way what's the difference between racist actions/racism and racial prejudice? Are they the same or different? For me, I generally act and believe myself to be progressive (I was against BLM a good while up until last month or so with my initial argument being inconveniencing the wrong people) however I still hold reservations in that within initial contact of meeting people I am more at ease with other people of East Asian descent compared to other ethnic groups (such as white, black, latino, etc.). If that labels me as racist then I'm fine with it but I feel this predisposition I have is hard to overturn as it not resonates in me but for many others I'd imagine; people generally flock to those who possess similar traits/qualities from appearance to cultural mannerisms and the like.

 

[KingV]

Living under the assumption that white people are individuals is potentially dangerous. I and other black people don't have the luxury of judging white people on an individual basis. When I have kids I will teach my kids not to put their hands in their pockets when going into a store and more, the same things that my parents taught me and that that their parents taught them. What do I say or do? "Maybe that white person won't think I stole this because I don't have a bag. Maybe as an individual they'll be cool?" Nah, That ain't worth the risk. In a society that imprisons black peoole at mass rates, throws black people in jail for marijuana even in states where it is legal, in a society where black people are murdered and entire details of their history are published to character assassinate and justify their death, in an era where Mexicans and Latinos are considered a leech on the system they uphold by doing jobs no one else will do, in a culture that makes all Muslims into an enemy worthy of spying on, think it's okay to make shows about mail ordering an Asian bride, and the rise of hateful Internet comments white people, white society, and white culture have more than a lifetime to prove to me that they deserve to be treated as individuals. As far as I'm concerned, their individuality status is earned and proved themselves as atypical to be treated as an individual by me. I will be respectful and nice, but you will be kept at arms length until you show yourself to be atypical. Until then you are a typical white person. Why? Because you never know what kind of white person you're gonna get.

Statistically you are more likely to be hit by a car then shot by a random white person. There are like a 4-500 white murders of black people every year. It's like living in fear of muslims because of terrorist attacks, or living in fear of black people because of the higher crime rate in many black neighborhoods. It's not entirely rational.

 

[sphagnum]

Statistically you are more likely to be hit by a car then shot by a random white person. There are like a 4-500 white murders of black people every year. It's like living in fear of muslims because of terrorist attacks, or living in fear of black people because of the higher crime rate in many black neighborhoods. It's not entirely rational.

White people are discriminatory towards black people in many more ways than just shooting them.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Statistically you are more likely to be hit by a car then shot by a random white person. There are like a 4-500 white murders of black people every year. It's like living in fear of muslims because of terrorist attacks, or living in fear of black people because of the higher crime rate in many black neighborhoods. It's not entirely rational.

Shot by a random white person? When did I say anything about random white people shooting me?

Hmmmm, bare with me here as I've a question that mostly spawns from ignorance to which I ask clarification on.

First, let me preface this that I am Asian American. Now with that out of the way what's the difference between racist actions/racism and racial prejudice? Are they the same or different? For me, I generally act and believe myself to be progressive (I was against BLM a good while up until last month or so with my initial argument being inconveniencing the wrong people) however I still hold reservations in that within initial contact of meeting people I am more at ease with other people of East Asian descent compared to other ethnic groups (such as white, black, latino, etc.). If that labels me as racist then I'm fine with it but I feel this predisposition I have is hard to overturn as it not resonates in me but for many others I'd imagine; people generally flock to those who possess similar traits/qualities from appearance to cultural mannerisms and the like.

No, that's normal.

 

[AnathemicOne]

No, that's normal.

Glad to hear but I'm still wondering what's the difference between racism/racist actions and racial prejudice. What I described about myself I'd like to categorize under racial prejudice but this thread (and many past ones) seems to throw the definition into flux; people have racial prejudicial thoughts (if the aforementioned definition example is correct) and this is up for debate on whether its racist/bad/etc.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Audioboxer and Kinitari, please watch 13th on Netflix. You guys talk about talking about race like it's a philosophical exercise in reaching pure grammatical and personal logic rather than as a grim reality. I don't know from your idealistic posts if you have the full context of why white and black America are as they are and how deep the trail goes.

Don't just take my word on 13th, everyone on GAF who saw it and posted about it praised it and learned something: http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1284752

 

[NandoGip]

POCs in this thread having pointless ass conversations lol... You guys haven't learned by now? Only a "woke" white dude can spread the word..

 

[Cabbagehead]

Progress is being made but of course at a snails pace. And truth be told White people get to be judged as individuals. We don't.

Point blank period.