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[gfxtwin]

Yes, this affects non-white people as well. Our society and culture values whiteness above all else. This makes PoC feel inferior and ultimately concede that light skin is superior. Because our culture values it. It takes a tremendous about of effort for a person of color to break out of this thinking. It is done in such a way that it's highly likely that white people feel superior even on an subconscious level. No one said that the forces of white supremacy and racism affects only white people. But for the sake of the discussion is makes white people racist. Not all white people support Trump, but if you bothered to read the studies, white people of all political stripes have a pro- white bias. There are forces here that are racist that have nothing to do with the overt kind of racism of Trump. "Small" things like thinking black people feel less pain. That can matter when you apply to be a cop and think a black man can survive at 12 shots. Ultimately, white people made this culture to begin with. They get the most flack for it because it is their responsibility to kill it. But they won't, because they stand to value in some way from it. For years, the drug war was used to cast black people and Latinos and Asians as drug users and drug addicts. But once white people start to become drug addicts through painkiller use, suddenly it's a crisis and the drug war is called into question. Suddenly drug addiction is a sad thing with real victims. "We all make mistakes." But that didn't stop white people from casting people of color as drug addicts. "Those people are low lives." Because white people live in a goddamn bubble until it effects white people. Because white people and white society is racist in a society that mollycoddled their values as well themselves.

Wooooow, is that really a thing? Do you feel like elaborating on that, or is there an interview or video footage with a cop or a study you can link me to that goes into that more?

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

These threads always play out the exact same way.

I honestly want the White people in this thread (and on GAF in general) to learn something.

I watched that Jane Elliot video someone linked in the thread a while ago, and I eventually went down a rabbit hole and ended up watching different versions of the experiment. Funnily enough, the videos that were shot in America all seemed to have a positive outcome. The only one that didn't was the one she did in 2009, in the UK. That one was derailed from the start, with everyone bringing up false equivalences to explain why race isn't a factor anymore. One woman, a White teacher placed in the blue-eyed group, suggested that she has faced racial discrimination on par with any Black person, and she also equated the plight of Blacks "playing the game" and conforming to her husband having to wear nice clothes and keeping proper hygiene. Eventually, one of the brown-eyed group members decided to sabotage the whole thing, because she for some reason thought her offense at the suggestion that she might be racist is more important than actually learning something different from the norm.

The reason why I brought that up is because I need White people in here to understand something: This isn't about you. Seriously. It's not about you. It's not about what you had to go through personally. It's not about how many times you were called a cracker by people of color. It's not about how many ________ friends you have. It's not about your political alignment. It's not about whether you think it's fair to suggest all Whites are racist. It's not about how hard your life is. NONE of this is about you. You guys have GOT to start understanding that, because in each and every thread like this, people bring up personal plights or bring up terms like "nuance" or say things like "they could've said that better" as if your offense at how the lesson was told is more important than the lesson itself. Every time threads like this occur, people start going into their own personal lives and how bad it was, and what they had to go through, as if that somehow A) makes you NOT racist, and B) trumps the experience of an entire group of people. Every time a thread like this pops up, we get into semantics arguments and it always ends up exposing how many people don't know what the difference between bigotry and racism is.

Just stop it. Forreal. If you guys are actually willing to learn and to change the state of race relations the world over, you have to get over yourselves and just learn to listen for once. No one cares about your personal experience. It doesn't matter. Because you can still walk down the street and not ever have to worry about being shot by the police for doing _____ while Black.

Great post.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Fair enough. I may not fully agree with it but I haven't walked in your shoes so I can respect your opinion.

When do you believe white people will no longer be inherently racist from birth?

This isn't from birth. It's not like white people are pre-installed with a racism chip in their brains.Children follow the lead of their parents, teachers, peers, and society. It gets in early. The most a parent can do is raise their child in a good, honest way, but even then, your peers may be influenced by their racist parents, and not knowing this is a bad thing to do, you may learn racist behavior yourself. When I was 4 years old we had to actually try to find a school that wasn't racist.

When I say white people are racist, I'm not judging them morally and I don't think this makes them bad people, despite having the world people in my statement. White people are ultimately influenced by factors outside of their control. I read earlier that someone thinks my statements means I don't like white people. On the contrary. White people are just people and how much I like you depends on an individual basis. But white people are definitely embedded with a culture that values whiteness.

Soren has a great video on this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zPtpRrpU-g

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Wooooow, is that really a thing? Do you feel like elaborating on that, or is there an interview or video footage with a cop or a study you can link me to that goes into that more?

Infinite posted a study on the last page about white people thinking black people literally feeling less pain. White scientists would damage black babies brains with the assumption that black people have less pain. Of course, this would have a 100% mortality rate, but the thinking was that black people are super people capable of feats and are thus, not human. Black women were experimented on without anesthesia. White doctors today for instance under prescribe black children medicine because they assume we feel less pain. So yes, a cop might feel "threatened" even if you're just an average height black person, or even the same height as them, because of your skin color, and use lethal force.

Medical Apartheid is a great book to read as a starting point.

 

[Nepenthe]

Wooooow, is that really a thing? Do you feel like elaborating on that, or is there an interview or video footage with a cop or a study you can link me to that goes into that more?

https://news.virginia.edu/content/study-links-disparities-pain-management-racial-bias

Studies show that black people are routinely under-treated for pain in relation to white people and to WHO standards due to misconceptions by people, including medical professionals, that we can biologically handle pain better than white people. =/

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

This is a good post, but the problem, as it has always been since the dawn of time, is that this is a problem with human society in general, not with a specific race.

It is a lot of posters on GAF that are living in bubbles rather than white people.

There is no such thing as removing privilege, the majority will have privilege over minorities in 90% of the cases. The 10% is reserved for those rare years and times when the country is experiencing such growth and prosperity or such dire threat from an external force that societal conflict becomes both counter-productive and meaningless.

The reason for that is simple, the rich and powerful are a minority themselves and when the country starts sliding down the blame and focus inevitably shifts to minorities (whether they be religious or racial minorities) so that the majority doesn't focus their rage and ire on those actually responsible.

A lot of people tend to forget that a lot of Jews escaped to Germany to escape Russian Pogroms and for a time life in Germany was definitely far better than the ones they used to have. But once Germany started going down the drain after WW 1 it all started to change, people tend to put all the blame on Hitler but forget that he had ample support from some of the rich and reputable families in Germany at that time and even some Western forces, as they both would rather have supported a Nationalist who would hunt Jews than a possibility of a communist uprising that could endanger them.

The maxim "Might makes right" has been one of the best to describe both the history of mankind and the development of mankind's society in general.

This might sound bleak, but as long as the powerful can prey on human selfishness (and being that selfishness is born of one of the most vital human instincts - self-preservation, it is unlikely that this will ever not be the case), the minorities will never achieve parity with the majority, and the moment they do they should be wary of what might come next.

The one hope is that one day we achieve the level of progress and splendor that makes pitting humans against each other pointless and fruitless, but whether we ever get there is a big question.

Great post! It all contributes to my misanthropy.

 

[Goatboy]

When I say white people are racist, I'm not judging them morally and I don't think this makes them bad people, despite having the world people in my statement. White people are ultimately influenced by factors outside of their control. I read earlier that someone thinks my statements means I don't like white people. On the contrary. White people are just people and how much I like you depends on an individual basis. But white people are definitely embedded with a culture that values whiteness.

Soren has a great video on this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zPtpRrpU-g

Being labeled racist is seen as a huge negative. When you say that it's not a judgment on their morality or they're not bad people, it comes off as completely disingenuous. When it's stated that they don't know any better, it come's off as condescending.

I don't believe that's your or most others intentions. I also don't think it's important to preserve anybodies emotional sensibilities, but do you understand that it can create blocks in people? Is this what you mean by "white fragility"?

 

[Sunster]

Being labeled racist is seen as a huge negative. When you say that it's not a judgment on their morality or they're not bad people, it comes off as completely disingenuous. When it's stated that they don't know any better, it come's off as condescending.

I don't believe that's your or most others intentions. I also don't think it's important to preserve anybodies emotional sensibilities, but do you understand that it can create blocks in people? Is this what you mean by "white fragility"?

Accepting that you are racist is the 1st step to changing. If white Americans thought they were 100% aok 1st class humans why would they want to change? It's important that we all just admit that there's an issue here regardless of whether or not it will hurt our feelings.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Being labeled racist is seen as a huge negative. When you say that it's not a judgment on their morality or they're not bad people, it comes off as completely disingenuous. When it's stated that they don't know any better, it come's off as condescending.

I don't believe that's your or most others intentions. I also don't think it's important to preserve anybodies emotional sensibilities, but do you understand that it can create blocks in people? Is this what you mean by "white fragility"?

I get where you're coming from, but I think a better exercise is to wonder why so many POC and race activists talk about white racism and white racists than to disqualify the thought based on discomfort with the term. We can't learn anything if we don't question anything.

Accepting that you are racist is the 1st step to changing. If white Americans thought they were 100% aok 1st class humans why would they want to change? It's important that we all just admit that there's an issue here regardless of whether or not it will hurt our feelings.

Yep. We have to realize we grow up thinking we're top shit in the world without ever critiquing those thoughts. Our first step to having a personal drive to ending racism is to find where we currently exist within it.

 

[alleyezonme]

Well I knew I was white but now I know I am a racist. I actually feel pretty good with that broad stroke... think I'l just carry on being a racist(in label).

Edit. It's fucking stupid, but I can deal with it.

Would you agree that most white people are maybe insensitive about what they say or do towards minorities? Which could then label them as racist . Like you had another white person say something or do something racist and tell you about it like it was not serious?

They may not have a hatred towards people of another race but they are very indifferent and only care about their own.

 

[Relceroi]

Being labeled racist is seen as a huge negative. When you say that it's not a judgment on their morality or they're not bad people, it comes off as completely disingenuous.

This isn't solely in response to your post, but it is what got me thinking about this.

There is, I think, an important distinction that people are making when they say someone is racist instead of saying that someone is a racist. As I see it, the latter statement implies a continuous state of being, hence the label of racist, whereas the first statement might only refer to a person who has, just then or in other occasions, performed a single racist act, be it through passive or active means. If someone says to you “that thing that you just did was racist” or even “you are (being) racist”, it doesn’t instantly mean that you have been labeled as a racist, simply that you were being racist.

Following this distinction, the way I interpreted the statement seen in the title of this thread is that all white people (I would argue all people, but that’s not important here) are, because of external influences, systematically racist, not that every single white person is a racist. Similarly, people that do bad things are not necessarily bad people, and it’s a little egoistic, if understandable, to react to such statements or accusations as personal insults.

I might be completely wrong making this distinction, but it is something that I noticed. Either way, I think it is practically impossible to completely escape the kinds of external influences that can make people have harmful prejudices and racist ways thinking and acting towards other people, with or without their knowledge. The best anyone can do is to try and be aware of those underlying, harmful prejudices and not act upon them whenever possible. And if for whatever reason, such as ignorance, it isn’t and you are called out for it, don't take it personally. Instead take note of that fact and avoid repeating the same mistake in the future.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

What are the metrics by which one determines parity in a society? Is there a point at which one could identify when whites no longer benefit from institutional racism on a statistically homogenous level? Obviously I understand the burden of identifying privilege shouldn't lie on the shoulders of those who are disadvantaged, but it's sadly they who are at the most advantage in identifying and communicating it.

 

[Audioboxer]

Accepting that you are racist is the 1st step to changing. If white Americans thought they were 100% aok 1st class humans why would they want to change? It's important that we all just admit that there's an issue here regardless of whether or not it will hurt our feelings.

Yes, but on an individual level you should only be accepting you are a racist if you are. It is absolutely okay and should be said loud and clear that there are issues with oppression, racism and privilege. However individuals should not be condoning themselves to shame, self-hating of their skin colour and all-round destructive thinking to ones personal psyche as it is some sort of perceived punishment for being born the wrong skin colour in the wrong era. You can say parents and friends influence all you want, it's true, but many people naturally fight back against external influences to create their own persona.

I originally posted in here just to add thoughts mainly about fight or flight, but there are some seriously sketchy posts of which I'm reading and as I said briefly to one GAFer I can only chalk that up to an American bubble for some. As someone who will one day be a qualified and practicing psychologist some peoples minds in here are going to be a fucking mess. I can sure well empathise given how serious and destructive racism, oppression, and privelge are, but seriously, some people in here are on a path of completely fucking their own heads up and if you ask me ironically diverging down a path where they probably only do feel comfortable mixing with people of the same skin colour. That is not what we (the world at large) want, communities being insular plays a small part in integration failing and stereotyping of people unfairly just because they were born with a different skin colour from you.

Depressingly I said earlier I don't ever see racism being eradicated, human beings always find a way to destroy and fuck up and embarrass the species. However on a micro-level we can all play our part in being decent human beings in the years we get given in life. I just worry that some with what seem like good intentions are so insulated they ironically end up aiding in divides. Certainly some of the broad brush strokes in here most definitely play a part in just turning people away.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Yes, but on an individual level you should only be accepting you are a racist if you are. It is absolutely okay and should be said loud and clear that there are issues with oppression, racism and privilege. However individuals should not be condoning themselves to shame, self-hating of their skin colour and all-round destructive thinking to ones personal psyche as it is some sort of perceived punishment for being born the wrong skin colour in the wrong era.

I originally posted in here just to add thoughts mainly about fight or flight, but there are some seriously sketchy posts of which I'm reading and as I said briefly to one GAFer I can only chalk that up to an American bubble for some. As someone who will one day be a qualified and practising psychologist some peoples minds in here are going to be a fucking mess. I can sure well empathise given how serious and destructive racism, oppression, and privelge are, but seriously, some people in here are on a path of completely fucking their own heads up and if you ask me ironically diverging down a path where they probably only do feel comfortable mixing with people of the same skin colour. That is not what we (the world at large) want, communities being insular plays a small part in integration failing and stereotyping of people unfairly just because they were born with a different skin colour from you.

If you think this is only attributable to America you are sadly mistaken.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/poll-canadians-multiculturalism-immigrants-1.3784194

Hell, you even have what looks like a Union Jack in your avatar and we all know what happened there.

 

[Audioboxer]

If you think this is only attributable to America you are sadly mistaken.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/poll-canadians-multiculturalism-immigrants-1.3784194

Hell, you even have what looks like a Union Jack in your avatar and we all know what happened there.

No, not that it only exists in America, that is crazy talk. The world has billions of people living everywhere. The American remark is more aimed at the people happy to say "all x people". As there are millions/billions of people not living in America who don't necessarily behave like Americans.

And yes I know Brexit brought about a resurgence in hate crime. Hence why I was proud Scotland voted to remain and why I also want to campaign for independence. However I never accept blanket statements that everyone who voted leave is a bigoted and racist, as statistically that just isn't true. Maybe it's the kind of mind I have, given the field I'm going into, but I think statistics, evidence and facts are important and if anyone is going to make a claim 100% of x is y, then you're going to need to have seriously good evidence. Not just emotions and feelings and anecdotal evidence from your personal, micro ("American") life.

I'll say it again, I can empathise with feelings, emotions and individuals often horrific experiences, but serious claims require serious evidence before I can sign off it not being destructive to just mark a whole race, or whole skin colour or whole gender as "x". That is seriously divisive and if it's what some GAFers minds subscribe to I stand by my feelings saying you're going to live a fucking hard life as a human being for however long you live. No doubt you also will be very insular with whatever is the opposite that you mark as x. So maybe only wanting to hang around with people of the same colour, or people of the same gender or people who "look like" you. No one can stop you doing that, but just comment it isn't exactly aiding in humanities steps towards better integration and less stereotyping.

 

[Infinite]

No, not that it only exists in America, that is crazy talk. The world has billions of people living everywhere. The American remark is more aimed at the people happy to say "all x people". As there are millions/billions of people not living in America who don't necessarily behave like Americans.

And yes I know Brexit brought about a resurgence in hate crime. Hence why I was proud Scotland voted to remain and why I also want to campaign for independence. However I never accept blanket statements that everyone who voted leave is a bigoted and racist, as statistically that just isn't true. Maybe it's the kind of mind I have, given the field I'm going into, but I think statistics, evidence and facts are important and if anyone is going to make a claim 100% of x is y, then you're going to need to have seriously good evidence. Not just emotions and feelings and anecdotal evidence from your personal, micro ("American") life.

I'll say it again, I can empathise with feelings, emotions and individuals often horrific experiences, but serious claims require serious evidence before I can sign off it not being destructive to just mark a whole race, or whole skin colour or whole gender as "x". That is seriously divisive and if it's what some GAFers minds subscribe to I stand by my feelings saying you're going to live a fucking hard life as a human being for however long you live.

Check my post on the previous page. Filled with data and statistics you're asking for.

 

[BocoDragon]

If you think this is only attributable to America you are sadly mistaken.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/poll-canadians-multiculturalism-immigrants-1.3784194

Hell, you even have what looks like a Union Jack in your avatar and we all know what happened there.

That link is more related to questions of assimilation "speak more English, don't practice sharia law" etc. Issues that are problematic, to be sure, but something that is potentially separate from issues of racism per se.

That said.... of course racism is endemic throughout the world.

 

[Audioboxer]

Check my post on the previous page. Filled with data and statistics you're asking for.

Your stats prove white people think, say and do horrific shit. I've never disputed that. I'm even more than happy to sign off saying the overwhelming majority of racist and bigoted goings on in the world are by white people. All throughout history, and still currently. I am not however happy to sign off on 100% and trying to instill unwarranted shame and apologising for being born a skin colour you had no choice over. That is as damaging as indoctrination is and quite honestly if anyone subscribes to such extremes, you are essentially trying to indoctrinate people. It's divisive at best, dangerous at worst, and it most certainly does not help marginalise racism by asking people not deserving to feel white shame (or any shame over any skin colour).

Shame is deserving of those who have done something wrong, otherwise it can wreck a person if you try to instill shame in them.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

That link is more related to questions of assimilation "speak more English, don't practice sharia law" etc. Issues that are problematic, to be sure, but something that is potentially separate from issues of racism per se.

How is it? Canada is a dual language country. Why is it okay to speak both English and French but get mad when people speak their own languages? How is this not in some way racist? You are essentially saying "don't rock the boat". Sharia Law and stuff, fine. But Canadian's should be remember that one point the languages of the country was that of the First Nations'.

 

[Sunster]

Yes, but on an individual level you should only be accepting you are a racist if you are. It is absolutely okay and should be said loud and clear that there are issues with oppression, racism and privilege. However individuals should not be condoning themselves to shame, self-hating of their skin colour and all-round destructive thinking to ones personal psyche as it is some sort of perceived punishment for being born the wrong skin colour in the wrong era. You can say parents and friends influence all you want, it's true, but many people naturally fight back against external influences to create their own persona.

I originally posted in here just to add thoughts mainly about fight or flight, but there are some seriously sketchy posts of which I'm reading and as I said briefly to one GAFer I can only chalk that up to an American bubble for some. As someone who will one day be a qualified and practicing psychologist some peoples minds in here are going to be a fucking mess. I can sure well empathise given how serious and destructive racism, oppression, and privelge are, but seriously, some people in here are on a path of completely fucking their own heads up and if you ask me ironically diverging down a path where they probably only do feel comfortable mixing with people of the same skin colour. That is not what we (the world at large) want, communities being insular plays a small part in integration failing and stereotyping of people unfairly just because they were born with a different skin colour from you.

Depressingly I said earlier I don't ever see racism being eradicated, human beings always find a way to destroy and fuck up and embarrass the species. However on a micro-level we can all play our part in being decent human beings in the years we get given in life. I just worry that some with what seem like good intentions are so insulated they ironically end up aiding in divides. Certainly some of the broad brush strokes in here most definitely play a part in just turning people away.

I don't hate my skin color and I don't hate white people. Accepting your own ingrained racism isn't accepting that you are Adolf Hitler. It is the beginning of an inward journey of unlearning and understanding for the benefit of your fellow man.

 

[Audioboxer]

I don't hate my skin color and I don't hate white people. Accepting your own ingrained racism isn't accepting that you are Adolf Hitler. It is the beginning of an inward journey of unlearning and understanding for the benefit of your fellow man.

I'll say it again, you accept something personally if it exists in you. If someone is telling you to accept, let alone apologise/feel shame over something that doesn't exist in you I sure hope you would challenge them.

I mean, at the very least one can admit at some level they benefit from racially biased institutions.

Definitely, but that is not personal shame or personal beliefs.

 

[diaspora]

I mean, at the very least one can admit at some level they benefit from racially biased institutions.

 

[Sunster]

I'll say it again, you accept something personally if it exists in you.

Yep, and you need to look for it first before coming to the conclusion that you are 100% not racist in any shape or form.

 

[Audioboxer]

Yep, and you need to look for it first before coming to the conclusion that you are 100% not racist in any shape or form.

Which many people do. Heck I'd like to think nearly everyone who is decent, that's what growing up, maturing and becoming an adult is all about. Finding yourself and what you believe in. Most people reject a ton of shitty thinking whether it came from parents growing up, or current friends. Heck I completely ditched religion, as my parents brought me up religious and it went against my beliefs on homosexuality. Amongst many other things, but the treatment of homosexuals in Christianity/Catholicism is awful. Again though I won't say 100% of Christians, as that just isn't true. My biggest beef lies with the books and all the stupid shit they say which individuals then go and use to be bigoted and discriminatory. There are however like there always is and always will be moderate religious people who believe largely for personal reasons and hold no bigoted or discriminatory thoughts to others.

 

[BocoDragon]

How is it? Canada is a dual language country. Why is it okay to speak both English and French but get mad when people speak their own languages? How is this not in some way racist? You are essentially saying "don't rock the boat". Sharia Law and stuff, fine. But Canadian's should be remember that one point the languages of the country was that of the First Nations'.

I agree with you on this topic. I rather like cultural diversity in this country as long as we do all have English (edit: or French!) as a common interface.

But this isn't a topic of racism. The question of how much someone should/shouldn't assimilate into a culture is a fundamental question for a multicultural society, and both sides have intellectual validity. We need to have some common interface as a culture, the question is how much, and it's reasonable for different people to draw the line in different places. That's what that poll is about.

It's far different than questions of holding denigrated opinions of other ethnicities consciously or unconsciously, which is the main component of racism and of this thread.

 

[Infinite]

Your stats prove white people think, say and do horrific shit. I've never disputed that. I'm even more than happy to sign off saying the overwhelming majority of racist and bigoted goings on in the world are by white people. All throughout history, and still currently. I am not however happy to sign off on 100% and trying to instill unwarranted shame and apologising for being born a skin colour you had no choice over. That is as damaging as indoctrination is and quite honestly if anyone subscribes to such extremes, you are essentially trying to indoctrinate people. It's divisive at best, dangerous at worst, and it most certainly does not help marginalise racism by asking people not deserving to feel white shame (or any shame over any skin colour).

Shame is deserving of those who have done something wrong, otherwise it can wreck a person if you try to instill shame in them.

There's a huge disconnect here and it's because of this; Racism isn't a binary switch, it's not like pregnancy where it comes down to either you are or you aren't. Rather it's a spectrum. You have racial blind spots at the minimum. That doesn't mean you are a Klan member it neonazi. Not at all. This isn't trying to shame you. No one is coming to brand your forehead with a Capitol R. Just like it takes a life time to work on being a good person or a better than you was the day before it would take just as long to undue our racist indoctrination. Realizing this is how we actually progress. Accepting that you might fuck up sometimes is tantamount

 

[Goatboy]

I get where you're coming from, but I think a better exercise is to wonder why so many POC and race activists talk about white racism and white racists than to disqualify the thought based on discomfort with the term. We can't learn anything if we don't question anything.


Yep. We have to realize we grow up thinking we're top shit in the world without ever critiquing those thoughts. Our first step to having a personal drive to ending racism is to find where we currently exist within it.

I don't disagree but I also don't think that applies to a majority of white women or men. In particular I think younger white men suffer from serious self esteem issues as much so as women. I guess that's not related but my point is most young white people don't go around thinking their shit doesn't stink, never questioning their beliefs. Quite the opposite. I think that's how some new racism is born.

 

[Audioboxer]

There's a huge disconnect here and it's because of this; Racism isn't a binary switch, it's not like pregnancy where it comes down to either you are or you aren't. Rather it's a spectrum. You have racial blind spots at the minimum. That doesn't mean you are a Klan member it neonazi. Not at all. This isn't trying to shame you. No one is coming to brand your forehead with a Capitol R. Just like it takes a life time to work on being a good person or a better than you was the day before it would take just as long to undue our racist indoctrination. Realizing this is how we actually progress.

That's the same for everything in life though? Every day is a new day and a possibility to interact with new people and be thrust into new positions. Same could be said for sexism, violence, bigotry and all sorts of abuse. It's equally not as healthy to walk around calling yourself a sexist and a violent human being when it isn't the case? I know some GAFers would probably go around saying all males are sexist, but that is just as destructive.

My point is most stable and decent people are that way because they have worked to mature, educate themselves and be who they are. Trying to knock down decent human beings because of the actions of others who happen to have the same skin colour is not healthy for humanity. Hence why even when I aim ire at religion I make sure to be considerate of the fact not every person who is religious is a bigot towards homosexuals. Decent people need propped up to show their is hope for humanity. Many do make an effort and work hard to be honest, considerate and just decent people.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

I don't disagree but I also don't think that applies to a majority of white women or men. In particular I think younger white men suffer from serious self esteem issues as much so as women. I guess that's not related but my point is most young white people don't go around thinking their shit doesn't stink, never questioning their beliefs. Quite the opposite. I think that's how some new racism is born.

I think self-esteem regarding someone liking you comes from a totally different place than self-esteem that has men thinking they are entitled to women's attention, that black men are stealing "their" white women, that "gay" is an insult, etc. They believe their own human condition is the right one and others are worse, even when personally failing with finding a partner. People without much self-worth in the personal relationship department can find a whole lot of it when it comes to why they're looking down at others for various reasons, and racism comes from that side of a person.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

That's the same for everything in life though? Every day is a new day and a possibility to interact with new people and be thrust into new positions. Same could be said for sexism, violence, bigotry and all sorts of abuse. It's equally not as healthy to walk around calling yourself a sexist and a violent human being when it isn't the case? I know some GAFers would probably go around saying all males are sexist, but that is just as destructive.

My point is most stable and decent people are that way because they have worked to mature, educate themselves and be who they are. Trying to knock down decent human beings because of the actions of others who happen to have the same skin colour is not healthy for humanity. Hence why even when I aim ire at religion I make sure to be considerate of the fact not every person who is religious is a bigot towards homosexuals. Decent people need propped up to show their is hope for humanity. Many do make an effort and work hard to be honest, considerate and just decent people.

It feels like you're taking this whole thing personally, as if it's a label or a way to shame people, when it's just an acknowledgement of our current place in the racial caste system we exist in, like it or not. It's not some sort of burden or demoralizing thought for me to admit I grew up in a racist as fuck place and inherited some of that behavior and thinking pattern that I have to unlearn and am still actively unlearning every moment.

 

[Infinite]

That's the same for everything in life though? Every day is a new day and a possibility to interact with new people and be thrust into new positions. Same could be said for sexism, violence, bigotry and all sorts of abuse. It's equally not as healthy to walk around calling yourself a sexist and a violent human being when it isn't the case? I know some GAFers would probably go around saying all males are sexist, but that is just as destructive.

My point is most stable and decent people are that way because they have worked to mature, educate themselves and be who they are. Trying to knock down decent human beings because of the actions of others who happen to have the same colour is not healthy for humanity. Hence why even when I aim ire at religion I make sure to be considerate of the fact not every person who is religious is a bigot towards homosexuals. Decent people need propped up to show their is hope for humanity. Many do make an effort and work hard to be honest, considerate and just decent people.

I'm not trying to knock anyone individual down. You're side stepping my point because feelings are getting in the way. I can tell we already agree but the issue is you don't wanna accept the labels. That's fine, I am not asking you to. I'm asking you to realize that we all, including yourself, have racial blind spots at the minimum due to our indoctrination into a racist white supremacist society. Someone telling me that they "don't have a racist bone in their body" is useless to me because as I am establishing racism, along with sexism and the other isms you mentioned are not a binary. By accepting that you have racial blind spots and that you might slip up sometimes is not asking you to call yourself a racists. That ridiculous. It's simply asking that we must continue unlearning our racist indoctrination as individuals

 

[User Name Here]

No matter what, and as someone likely said, that teacher should've made his statment more carefully. The reason being that he likely wouldn't reach the students who needed to understand his points by being so blunt.

And I personally feel that we need to stick with the orginal definition of racism removing the "racial prejudice" part. Let racial prejudice be it's own term inorder to accurately describe prejudice actions against a dominate majority or minority.

 

[Audioboxer]

It feels like you're taking this whole thing personally, as if it's a label or a way to shame people, when it's just an acknowledgement of our current place in the racial caste system we exist in, like it or not. It's not some sort of burden or demoralizing thought for me to admit I grew up in a racist as fuck place and inherited some of that behavior and thinking pattern that I have to unlearn and am still actively unlearning every moment.

What is your definition of taking it personally? If you mean being involved in a debate, sure. It started off as I said giving my perspective on fight or flight. Besides that I just feel some rather destructive thinking in this topic. Personal opinion? Sure. Not everyone is going to think there are destructive remarks in here. Taking it personally though? Again I'll need you to elaborate.

As for your personal experience I won't take away from that. It's your experience. My point is others have different experiences and in mine racism was not something I really had to unlearn. I just had to learn not to be racist and obvious reasons as to why not. My individual personality has always been kind and caring, as well as open minded. As I mentioned above the only real thing I've had to reject instilled in me by parents was religion.

I'm not trying to knock anyone individual down. You're side stepping my point because feelings are getting in the way. I can tell we already agree but the issue is you don't wanna accept the labels. That's fine, I am not asking you to. I'm asking you to realize that we all, including yourself, have racial blind spots at the minimum due to our indoctrination into a racist white supremacist society. Someone telling me that they "don't have a racist bone in their body" is useless to me because as I am establishing racism, along with sexism and the other isms you mentioned are not a binary. By accepting that you have racial blind spots and that you might slip up sometimes is not asking you to call yourself a racists. That ridiculous. It's simply asking that we must continue unlearning our racist indoctrination as individuals

Well that's fine by me, but we are in a topic addressing thinking attitudes that want to say 100% of white people are racists. Simply saying being mindful of your thinking and actions throughout life is not the same as saying someone has to "wear a label". That is my point, as it is yours seemingly. It's up to others if they want to class themselves as something they are not, but I can assure you if anyone ever came to me in therapy and said "am I x?" then I would sure be asking for more information and what they felt and why before saying "yes you are, you have white skin, or you have a penis". That is not good not responsible therapy! Which is why I do think such issues are worth being careful about. We don't lock people up without evidence, so people shouldn't "lock themselves up" unless they know/have evidence that they need to change as a person.

 

[Infinite]

What is your definition of taking it personally? If you mean being involved in a debate, sure. It started off as I said giving my perspective on fight or flight. Besides that I just feel some rather destructive thinking in this topic. Personal opinion? Sure. Not everyone is going to think there are destructive remarks in here. Taking it personally though? Again I'll need you to elaborate.

As for your personal experience I won't take away from that. It's your experience. My point is others have different experiences and in mine racism was not something I really had to unlearn. I just had to learn not to be racist and obvious reasons as to why not. My individual personality has always been kind and caring, as well as open minded. As I mentioned above the only real thing I've had to reject instilled in me by parents was religion.



Well that's fine by me, but we are in a topic addressing thinking attitudes that want to say 100% of white people are racists. Simply saying being mindful of your thinking and actions throughout life is not the same as saying someone has to "wear a label". That is my point, as it is yours seemingly. It's up to others if they want to class themselves as something they are not, but I can assure you if anyone ever came to me in therapy and said "am I x?" then I would sure be asking for more information and what they felt and why before saying "yes you are, you have white skin, or you have a penis". That is not good not responsible therapy! Which is why I do think such issues are worth being careful about. We don't lock people up without evidence, so people shouldn't "lock themselves up" unless they know/have evidence that they need to change as a person.

But this isn't therapy. I'm not your race therapist. I'm merely telling you as a consequence of existing in a racist white supremacist society we all hold racial beliefs and blind spots to varying degrees. That's the black ass truth.

 

[TM94]

That's a disgraceful thing to say, especially to kids.

 

[Audioboxer]

But this isn't therapy. I'm not your race therapist. I'm merely telling you as a consequence of existing in a racist white supremacist society we all hold racial beliefs and blind spots to varying degrees. That's the black ass truth.

But that's the kind of attitude I think is dangerous. You and others "telling me". When it's not a debate but simply one person thinking they know best for every single person of "x" it becomes a pretty destructive way of thinking. I link it to therapy as if I prescribed to this kind of attitude I would be a terrible therapist. It's not my job to hand out blanket judgement of every single patient I have by trying to force them to be what I want them to be. Hence why I say evidence is required for any claim, even on a micro-level before I am happy to believe something. A patient simply asking me "am I racist for being white?" is never going to be met with "I'm just going to tell you, yes you are".

I mean you can't jump inside my mind, but if you want to say I hold 0.1% racial blind spots, fine, you can have that if it makes you happy. Why? I know I 99.9% don't give a flying fuck what colour or race you are, a human being is a human being to me. It's pretty depressing there are societal structures of racism I may benefit from, but given how insignificant I will be to changing government I have to care more about making sure I am a damn good person and offering what help I can to those around me. Hence why I'm aiming to go into the field I am.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

No matter what, and as someone likely said, that teacher should've made his statment more carefully. The reason being that he likely wouldn't reach the students who needed to understand his points by being so blunt.

And I personally feel that we need to stick with the orginal definition of racism removing the "racial prejudice" part. Let racial prejudice be it's own term inorder to accurately describe prejudice actions against a dominate majority or minority.

I agree with this. I agree with the teachers sentiment 100% but not in the context of telling it high schoolers ultimately, I myself am trying to learn how to frame the argument in a better way. But it's pretty hard or impossible to not come off in a harsh way due to nature of the subject which demands cutthroat honest. Maybe as we mature and learn more I, and maybe even the teacher, can learn to present this argument and redefine the contemporary definition of racism that goes beyond the vapid definition of calling people slurs but that is not today. Something to think about certainly and only makes me want to pursue a Master Degree in Racial Studies or some equivalent even further.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

But that's the kind of attitude I think is dangerous. You and others "telling me". When it's not a debate but simply one person thinking they know best for every single person of "x" it becomes a pretty destructive way of thinking. I link it to therapy as if I prescribed to this kind of attitude I would be a terrible therapist. It's not my job to hand out blanket judgement of every single patient I have by trying to force them to be what I want them to be. Hence why I say evidence is required for any claim, even on a micro-level before I am happy to believe something. A patient simply asking me "am I racist for being white?" is never going to be met with "I'm just going to tell you, yes you are".

I mean you can't jump inside my mind, but if you want to say I hold 0.1% racial blind spots, fine, you can have that if it makes you happy. Why? I know I 99.9% don't give a flying fuck what colour or race you are, a human being is a human being to me. It's pretty depressing there are societal structures of racism I may benefit from, but given how insignificant I will be to changing government I have to care more about making sure I am a damn good person and offering what help I can to those around me. Hence why I'm aiming to go into the field I am.

You're taking this all personally, on an individual level, when it's a lesson in racial history. I wouldn't live where I do right now if the area hadn't been demolished to build highways between white neighborhoods. In fact, my whole fucking state was white-only by law until just 90 years ago, how could this possibly not impact everyone here? There's literally no way for me to exist as I do right now without being a part of displacing an entire black community. I could go on about how I didn't personally do it or how I feel like I had no impact on it, but that's just me telling myself that to feel comfortable, which white people do every moment of every day to justify our current way of life.

All Infinite is "telling you" are the facts of our racial history and what it means to be white in America in 2016. It's up to you if you want to listen. It's up to you if you want to research more about our place in history. There's no label you have to live with. No one is burdened just by having knowledge.

Related: I Don't Know What to Do with Good White People

 

[Audioboxer]

You're taking this all personally, on an individual level, when it's a lesson in racial history. I wouldn't live where I do right now if the area hadn't been demolished to build highways between white neighborhoods. In fact, my whole fucking state was white-only by law until just 90 years ago, how could this possibly not impact everyone here? There's literally no way for me to exist as I do right now without being a part of displacing an entire black community. I could go on about how I didn't personally do it or how I feel like I had no impact on it, but that's just me telling myself that to feel comfortable, which white people do every moment of every day to justify our current way of life.

All Infinite is "telling you" are the facts of our racial history and what it means to be white in America in 2016. It's up to you if you want to listen. It's up to you if you want to research more about our place in history.

The very premise of the topic was individualistic though. That is how the teacher aimed his wording.

You can learn about history and present day and all the issues with humanity without condemning people that you either don't have evidence to, or are trying to based upon something they didn't choose in their mothers womb.

“Am I racist? And I say yeah. I don’t want to be. It’s not like I choose to be racist, but do I do things because of the way I was raised.”

“To be white is to be racist, period,” the teacher says.

It is the teachers fault if he "does things because of how he was raised". It's up to him to change that. Not to stand there and say because of his individual experience all people who share his skin colour are like him. We aren't.

 

[Izuna]

You don't need to read up on history to find examples of racism in society.

But for real, the term the teacher was looking for was "privileged".

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

The very premise of the topic was individualistic though. That is how the teacher aimed his wording.

You can learn about history and present day and all the issues with humanity without condemning people that you either don't have evidence to, or are trying to based upon something they didn't choose in their mothers womb.



It is the teachers fault if he "does things because of how he was raised". It's up to him to change that. Not to stand there and say because of his individual experience all people who share his skin colour are like him. We aren't.

No one was condemned to anything. No one said we are all alike. It just feels like you keep resisting learning more to talk about feelings that come up for you hearing the r-word, as if those are the most important in the topic of racism.

Before this tangent started, I think this thread had kind of an agreement that what the teacher said was on the right path, but it wasn't at all the right way to go about it. There's more to learn here rather than talking about how to be nicer or better at putting the statement in context when saying it; we mostly already agreed on that.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

You don't need to read up on history to find examples of racism in society.

But for real, the term the teacher was looking for was "privileged".

Nah, the word racist is fine. We're just operating on two different definitions of the word.

See:

I think that the main issue is that you have different definition of racism.

If you think racism as a moral issue and that being racist consist in having an open racist discourse about that race being inferior, so yes it's doesn't make any sense to say that all "white are racists". So reducing racism as "bad action".

But if you think racism as a set of practices and culturales norms that are part of the american culture as philadelphia cheese, so yes you could definitely say that it's the case that all "whites are racists". You cannot escape it. It's like being put at the top and pretending that you won't see people from above.

The main issue is the de-politicization of racism to make it a moral issue that could be solved by hugging a black person.

 

[Audioboxer]

No one was condemned to anything. No one said we are all alike. It just feels like you keep resisting learning more to talk about feelings that come up for you hearing the r-word, as if those are the most important in the topic of racism.

The teacher did which is why a lot of people came in here to discuss what he said. Other GAFers have pretty much agreed with him. Where as others have said change it to privilege, and that is something I can agree with more. I can without a doubt benefit from societal privilege I don't personally want to or choose to, it happens because of the state of society and because I was born a certain colour. How I choose to behave and what to believe is an individualistic matter and anyone trying to herd me based on something I didn't choose at birth will meet a challenge from me.

I'm also pretty certain if anyone walks around saying "All white people are x" / "All black people are x" / "All females are x" / "All males are x" / "All Chinese people are x" and so forth you will attract debate, posts, comments and remarks. So just because I am being involved in this debate is not because I want to resist knowledge or education or I think word games are more important than actual racism. It is because the topic caught my eye and what started as discussing fight or flight around hoodies developed further as I started engaging with other GAFers. I feel it is pretty unfortunate I need to make that clear but that is now you and a few others being quick to say I'm resisting and/or only caring about dictionary definitions. I think that is a little unfair given my responses while you might not agree with them have time and care put into them. Many other posts in here are just drive-bys or one sentence. If anything the teachers remarks are a bit lacking in care. As I pointed out above he takes his personal upbringing and tries to conflate that to all white people.

 

[Cagey]

"All white people are racist"
- Well I'm not racist and I don't think that statement is true but racism is a huge issue.
"It's not about you, it's about larger societal problems from racism in America."
- I agree. I'm not racist but yes there are tremendous issues.
"Yes you are though, you're racist because all white people are racist in a fundamnetally racist society; it's impossible not to be."
- Ok but... I'm not racist.
"Stop making it about you and your feelings."
- But you're calling me something I'm not. I'm merely responding. Why do you get to make factually inaccurate claims and not allow for disagreement?
"White emotions are so fragile, can't discuss serious topics like racism."
- But I was doing just that, I just noted I'm not racist while discussing societal problems.
"Stop taking things like "all white people are racist" personally as a white person as if it's about you."

Wash rinse repeat.

It's possible to think the statement is wrong while having the mental and emotional capacity to still care just as much about societal problems as if someone didn't bother to put up the fight to disagree. blind agreement with an incorrect statement is not some litmus test for one's woke level.

 

[Oppo]

"All white people are racist"
- Well I'm not racist and I don't think that statement is true but racism is a huge issue.
"It's not about you, it's about larger societal problems from racism in America."
- I agree. I'm not racist but yes there are tremendous issues.
"Yes you are though, you're racist because all white people are racist in a fundamnetally racist society; it's impossible not to be."
- Ok but... I'm not racist.
"Stop making it about you and your feelings."
- But you're calling me something I'm not. I'm merely responding. Why do you get to make factually inaccurate claims and not allow for disagreement?
"White emotions are so fragile, can't discuss serious topics like racism."
- But I was doing just that, I just noted I'm not racist while discussing societal problems.
"Stop taking things like "all white people are racist" personally as a white person as if it's about you."

Wash rinse repeat.

so - i get all this. and it's pretty spot on.

the thing though, is that the take away is "shut up and listen". which, again, i get. i do.

but it's at odds with being in a discussion forum, don't you think?

 

[Audioboxer]

so - i get all this. and it's pretty spot on.

the thing though, is that the take away is "shut up and listen". which, again, i get. i do.

but it's at odds with being in a discussion forum, don't you think?

Well that is why the mods have already been in here to say if you shitpost and don't actually discuss take a hike. I did already say early on in here the actual "right" response from the students would be to challenge their teacher. Not get hostile or storm out. However if the teacher were to double down without any nuance to explain himself then yeah I think people would have a bit of a genuine reason to be worried. First and foremost he is suppose to be a teacher, so responsible for the students and his behaviour. I did ask what the class was but no one responded (as in is it history/math/science/etc). Secondly as I said above it's a bit of a cardinal sin to be someone who cares about education but be so failing of the scientific method. To take your experience and say it's now the experience of everyone of your kind is to make a serious claim without serious evidence.

I'm glad most GAFers even those disagreeing with me are saying "but we aren't saying all", but the problem originates from the fact the teacher did. The teacher was not as nuanced as most GAFers are being and we haven't had any updates to suggest the teacher actually meant what most people in here are saying. Context matters, especially in educational fields. He is literally filling young impressionable minds with anything he says. Which is why it is doubly important to be mindful, careful and sensible if you are anyone in education. Not to mention the most important thing about teaching, factual and honest.

 

[Infinite]

Well that is why the mods have already been in here to say if you shitpost and don't actually discuss take a hike. I did already say early on in here the actual "right" response from the students would be to challenge their teacher. Not get hostile or storm out. However if the teacher were to double down without any nuance to explain himself then yeah I think people would have a bit of a genuine reason to be worried. First and foremost he is suppose to be a teacher, so responsible for the students and his behaviour. I did ask what the class was but no one responded (as in is it history/math/science/etc). Secondly as I said above it's a bit of a cardinal sin to be someone who cares about education but be so failing of the scientific method. To take your experience and say it's now the experience of everyone of your kind is to make a serious claim without serious evidence.

I'm glad most GAFers even those disagreeing with me are saying "but we aren't saying all", but the problem originates from the fact the teacher did. The teacher was not as nuanced as most GAFers are being and we haven't had any updates to suggest the teacher actually meant what most people in here are saying. Context matters, especially in educational fields. He is literally filling young impressionable minds with anything he says. Which is why it is doubly important to be mindful, careful and sensible if you are anyone in education.

We agree. My first post in this thread was about how the professor could've been more nuanced. Actually the majority of the thread agrees. The point of the contention in this discussion lies with the word racism and white fragility.

 

[Audioboxer]

We agree. My first post in this thread was about how the professor could've been more nuanced. Actually the majority of the thread agrees. The point of the contention in this discussion lies with the word racism and white fragility.

It only lies with the word racism for me because if there isn't clear explaining then you honestly cannot blame people for what they believe to be the dictionary definition of racism. Let us be completely brutally honest, words matter. No amount of "I'm/we're taking this word back" or "but I don't mean x when I say y" takes away from facts around our English language and the origins and definitions of words. So like it or not it matters when a teacher stands in front of a class and says as he does with what looks like rather poor explaining. Either the teacher believes what he has said on face value, or he has explained poorly. Sadly we don't know unless he comes out with a response. No one can pretend they know for sure until he does as that would be you taking what is in your mind and saying what is in the teachers mind is the same as you.

What he did do though was clearly conflate his upbringing with the reasoning for what he says. That I do have a problem with as not everyone has the same upbringing, and even out of those that have similar upbringings it's all about how the individual responds to their life experiences and what they think. To think otherwise is to suggest that someone brought up in a violent home is therefore a violent person, as someone brought up in a racist home is therefore a racist person. That is a very poor way to think as you do condemn the individual for unfortunately having been put in a situation as a child/young adult that they probably had zero choice/influence over. What is important is rehabilitation for them and judging them based on how they act/think, not how their family/parents did/do.

Which is why education is insanely important, and at a young age. What simply isn't is teachers standing in front of classes and saying "to be x is to be y, end of". Like said teacher is "God" passing judgement on a whole race/ethnicity/gender.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

All this stuff about being an individual will fall on deaf ears.

 

[Audioboxer]

All this stuff about being an individual will fall on deaf ears.

Your ears? GAFs? I know it will on many peoples. I find that sad though as if you cannot go through life seeing people as individuals you will miss out on a lot of what makes humanity/life great. It's a rather human fault to want to group people, so I wouldn't shame people for doing it, however I would suggest life is far better when you do treat people as individuals and not based upon their appearance/gender/what they are wearing/where they work and so forth. Personality is what humans should "fall in love with", not materialistic things or that which someone didn't have a choice in being decided for them (skin colour/gender/a lot of biological genes leading to appearance traits).

I mean okay on the biological front a lot of traits that are based around behaviour/the brain can be influenced by genes. Leading to shorter or greater tempers/less or more emotional feelings and so on. To be human though is to understand this and be able to influence a lot of the ways you behave and respond. Such as knowing if you have a short fuse to realise this and act appropriately to help yourself.