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[Vigilant Walrus]

They didn't listen to consumers, they listened to sales. The fact that they didn't fix their shit until they were getting dominated proves this.

So far we have no evidence that Phil listens to anything but Benjamins. This would be a wonderful opportunity to prove that false, though.

What exactly are you trying to argue here?



Also, can we move past this bullshit about consumers being unanimous about what they want. A lot of changes where put in place before the machine was released. Obviously bad word of mouth leads to bad sales... It's a company. It's main objective is to make money, you're thinking about it like it's a person.

 

[chubigans]

That's good news! Added to the OP.

Should we believe in change this time? I hope so *crosses fingers*

i just gotta believe! *holds Amir0x tightly*

 

[TheOnePercent]

That was referring to the fact that not everyone buys Indie games.

Not everyone buys racing games, so they don't count, take them off the list!
Not everyone buys fighting games, so they don't count, take them off the list!
Not everyone buys sports games, so they don't count, take them off the list!
Not everyone buys shooting games, so they don't count, take them off the list!

 

[targetpractice]

What I just cannot understand is who actually benefits from the parity clause.

It's not developers. As Chubigans, Amir0x, and others have pointed out, it forces small teams, who are usually already short on money and manpower, to choose between either developing a game on multiple different platforms simultaneously, or missing out on a large portion of there potential audience.

It's not Xbox gamers. Less choice is not a good thing, and games are not worse just because they were on another platform before arriving on yours. Before I got my 360, I played Limbo, Braid, and Castle Crashers on my PS3, even though all three came to Xbox first. I'd heard good things about them from my friends, and the fact that Xbox owners got to enjoy them before I did didn't diminish my experience with them in any way, shape, or form.

It's not even Microsoft. Even if we assume that nobody chooses which console to buy based on indie games, the parity clause is preventing games from coming out on Xbox. Fewer games on the platform means fewer games for customers to buy, which means fewer games are sold overall, which means less total revenue, which means a smaller cut for Microsoft.

Seriously, I just can't wrap my head around it. I mean, was anyone complaining this past weekend when Shovel Knight and Super Time Force were announced for Playstation, just because they are already available on another console? I'd love it if someone could explain this to me.

 

[Mengy]

What I just cannot understand is who actually benefits from the parity clause.

It's not developers. As Chubigans, Amir0x, and others have pointed out, it forces small teams, who are usually already short on money and manpower, to choose between either developing a game on multiple different platforms simultaneously, or missing out on a large portion of there potential audience.

It's not Xbox gamers. Less choice is not a good thing, and games are not worse just because they were on another platform before arriving on yours. Before I got my 360, I played Limbo, Braid, and Castle Crashers on my PS3, even though all three came to Xbox first. I'd heard good things about them from my friends, and the fact that Xbox owners got to enjoy them before I did didn't diminish my experience with them in any way, shape, or form.

It's not even Microsoft. Even if we assume that nobody chooses which console to buy based on indie games, the parity clause is preventing games from coming out on Xbox. Fewer games on the platform means fewer games for customers to buy, which means fewer games are sold overall, which means less total revenue, which means a smaller cut for Microsoft.

Seriously, I just can't wrap my head around it. I mean, was anyone complaining this past weekend when Shovel Knight and Super Time Force were announced for Playstation, just because they are already available on another console? I'd love it if someone could explain this to me.

I believe the intent of MS was to force developers to either:

1. release on all platforms at the same time (thus putting MS on equal footing)

OR

2. release on Xbox first with some timed exclusivity


Essentially they wanted to bully their way into market dominance.

 

[targetpractice]

I believe the intent of MS was to force developers to either:

1. release on all platforms at the same time (thus putting MS on equal footing)

OR

2. release on Xbox first with some timed exclusivity


Essentially they wanted to bully their way into market dominance.

I thought of that, but it still doesn't make sense. Even if that is the reasoning, it's obviously not working, and hasn't been for at least a year (since the new consoles were released). Given the discrepancy in both games announced and games already released, Microsoft should realize it's not working by now, which means they should, at the very least, be taking steps to reverse this policy. Instead though, we got Phil Spencer doubling down on it with his "First class" comments just a few months ago. It just seems really counter-intuitive, even if this is what they're trying to do.

 

[Jomjom]

The people who keep making these threads i'm sure.

I'm someone who always buys both Playstation and Xbox consoles so stuff like that doesn't bother me. I just find it interesting when Indie games keep getting used in these kind of threads comparing game amounts.

Lol chub making this thread cause of list wars. Did you even read his OP?

 

[RadarScope1]

I haven't been able to read the whole thread, but I just want to echo the kudos to Chubigans for the fantastic OP. And kudos to the mods for excellent moderation in the first couple of pages. THIS is why I love coming to GAF. I can't say it enough.

How many people do you think has actually bought a PS4 or X1 because of Indie games or for Indie games?.

I am actually stunned that anyone would still be asking this kind of question at this point. The answer is = lots of people. Me, for one. And others I know. Anecdotal yes, but true. I bought an Xbox 360 in 2007 not for Halo or Gears but in large part for games like Pac-Man CE, Geometry Wars, Space Giraffe, and retro releases. Those were games kind of quirky, experimental (and occasionally retro-styled) games that I loved on the PS1 and PS2 like Katamari Damacy, the Red Star or Odin Sphere. Then I was further rewarded with stuff like Shadow Complex, Limbo, Splosion Man, Mark of the Ninja and others. Some of those games came to PS3 but by then I was already fully invested (monetarily and loyalty-wise) in XBLA. Then MS dropped the ball on digital games like a rock and Sony took it and to the end zone and beyond.

I think the major assumption that people are incorrectly making is that everyone games on a PC. They don't. I don't. I don't know what it's going to take to get over that assumption but I would think that people who post on GAF would know that such a thing as console-only gamers exist. This kind of thing is huge when it comes to selling consoles. The people who buy console want a big variety of games. Developers make those games. Therefore, the platform holders' true customers are the developers. Take care of the creators and the creators will take care of your customers. MS seems to have forgotten this, and I for one won't be going back to their platform anytime soon because of it.

 

[xxracerxx]

I don't know about "bullying". This sounds like a damn if you do or don't scenario. If they did not stand up to try and get their customers games other platforms are getting, they would get chewed out for being complacent. Phil even discussed this and I am paraphrasing but the point was to help avoid xbox only owners not feel like second class citizens when it comes to third party libraries.

Do you think that Playstation only owners feel like second class citizens when they are going to be buying/playing Shovel Knight and Super Time Force?

Most cases would probably say NO.

That whole first class bullshit is just that.

 

[Fox Mulder]

It's amazing how hard MS fucked themselves with indies. Xbla on the 360 was amazing for years and was a great counter to the Kinect bullshit they focused on. Now the xb1 game store is barren as shit after running indie devs off.

 

[Neuromancer]

The people who keep making these threads i'm sure.

I'm someone who always buys both Playstation and Xbox consoles so stuff like that doesn't bother me. I just find it interesting when Indie games keep getting used in these kind of threads comparing game amounts.

I honestly don't know how you don't get banned for comments like this. As if chubigans' OP wasn't well researched, or well articulated, passionate, or otherwise in earnest - nope, it all just a well disguised list warz to make MS look bad.

 

[Faustek]

Fudge...it just hit me.

As LestradeTGQ pointed out earlier he was in mid project and the engine he was using hadn't yet been made to accommodate XBO.
Is this MS final card? Is it possible that this is the reason for the "wait and see" stance? That after new projects are made if the devs will still "favour" Sony/Nintendo? And then if that fails do the old switcheroo? That is if they during this time can sidestep all the negative PR.
Kinda like how they built up Spencer?(I'm sure he is a great guy behind that suite(no worries I don't like Reggie/Iwata either so don't jump me on that...Shibata should be the King)) to mitigate all the "made by non gamers" thingy that was surrounding the Xbox? That it wasn't a games machine?

Another Question. The parity clause. Is it just for consoles? As in PC and dedicated handhelds are not included?

 

[Amir0x]

I don't know about "bullying". This sounds like a damn if you do or don't scenario. If they did not stand up to try and get their customers games other platforms are getting, they would get chewed out for being complacent. Phil even discussed this and I am paraphrasing but the point was to help avoid xbox only owners not feel like second class citizens when it comes to third party libraries.

well all I can say is mission accomplished, now XBO owners get to feel like third class citizens instead

 

[Liberty4all]

Interesting thread

 

[Ravidrath]

Well, just e-mailed id@xbox.com to see if Skullgirls has any future on the platform.

 

[Amir0x]

Well, just e-mailed id@xbox.com to see if Skullgirls has any future on the platform.

hopefully they make an exception for you. Skullgirls seems important enough I think

 

[Faustek]

Well, just e-mailed id@xbox.com to see if Skullgirls has any future on the platform.

Let's hope so. You guys really deserve to be everywhere and XBO owners only will get another great game.

 

[Ravidrath]

hopefully they make an exception for you. Skullgirls seems important enough I think

I'll take what I can get, but ultimately I'd rather they fix the policies rather than decide who is important or not.

All indies have limited resources and have to marshall them as efficiently as possible. If they want parity, then they need to make the Xbox One a more attractive platform to develop for than just cudgel people with restrictions.

 

[xxracerxx]

I'll take what I can get, but ultimately I'd rather they fix the policies rather than decide who is important or not.

All indies have limited resources and have to marshall them as efficiently as possible. If they want parity, then they need to make the Xbox One a more attractive platform to develop for than just cudgel people with restrictions.

Hear hear.

 

[Amir0x]

I'll take what I can get, but ultimately I'd rather they fix the policies rather than decide who is important or not.

All indies have limited resources and have to marshall them as efficiently as possible. If they want parity, then they need to make the Xbox One a more attractive platform to develop for than just cudgel people with restrictions.

Oh I know Ravidrath. I totally 100% agree with you. I've been fighting this ID@Xbox parity clause since it was revealed, I made a thread about it in the start of 2014 and asked if we should start a social media campaign for it but there were no takers back then. I suspect people didn't realize just how big of a problem it was or didn't believe how big the problem would become

Xbox One's indie program by all accounts is pretty darn good outside of this issue, so it blows my mind they're staying stubborn about this.

 

[Ravidrath]

Xbox One's indie program by all accounts is pretty darn good outside of this issue, so it blows my mind they're staying stubborn about this.

Microsoft will always strive to exert as much control as possible over anything - it's just in their bones.

Until they understand and accept that developers know what is best for their game and their audience, Microsoft will always be behind on this front. It is not MS's job to make all Xbox One owners feel "first class," it is the developer's job to make their current and potential customers feel that way.

SCEA bends over backwards for their devs and lets them try things and bend TRCs all over the place, because they trust that devs know what is best for their game.

http://www.polygon.com/2014/10/22/7040253/skullgirls-encore-ps4-supports-ps3-arcade-sticks-madcatz

See this? It goes against a lot of Sony TRCs, but they believed it was the right thing to do for the consumer and let us push ahead on it. And we talked to a ton of devs at PlayStation Experience that were excited that we'd give them code to support old peripherals on PS4.

Based on my experiences with MS, there is no way they would allow us to do something similar for Xbox One. It took two months to get a patch larger than 32 megs for the 360 version approved, because it had to be arbitrated on by some dark council. And this is a much bigger deal than something like that.

And we totally would if they'd let us.

 

[xxracerxx]

http://www.polygon.com/2014/10/22/7040253/skullgirls-encore-ps4-supports-ps3-arcade-sticks-madcatz

See this? It goes against a lot of Sony TRCs, but they believed it was the right thing to do for the consumer and let us push ahead on it. And we talked to a ton of devs at PlayStation Experience that were excited that we'd give them code to support old peripherals on PS4.

Holy crap, how did I miss this news? AWESOME!

 

[SapientWolf]

The parity clause is ridiculous, yes, but more than half of that list looks like crap no one will even look at until it's free on PS+ or a dollar on Steam.

It's pretty clear that indies are filling the holes in the PS4's library. PS4 owners don't have the massive backlog that PC gamers do. There just aren't a whole lot of games yet.

 

[Amir0x]

Microsoft will always strive to exert as much control as possible over anything - it's just in their bones.

Until they understand and accept that developers know what is best for their game and their audience, Microsoft will always be behind on this front. It is not MS's job to make all Xbox One owners feel "first class," it is the developer's job to make their current and potential customers feel that way.

SCEA bends over backwards for their devs and lets them try things and bend TRCs all over the place, because they trust that devs know what is best for their game.

http://www.polygon.com/2014/10/22/7040253/skullgirls-encore-ps4-supports-ps3-arcade-sticks-madcatz

See this? It goes against a lot of Sony TRCs, but they believed it was the right thing to do for the consumer and let us push ahead on it. And we talked to a ton of devs at PlayStation Experience that were excited that we'd give them code to support old peripherals on PS4.

Based on my experiences with MS, there is no way they would allow us to do something similar for Xbox One. It took two months to get a patch larger than 32 megs for the 360 version approved, because it had to be arbitrated on by some dark council. And this is a much bigger deal than something like that.

And we totally would if they'd let us.

wow man this makes Sony seem reaaally progressive on this issue, making MS look even worse. I mean I understand Sony is a corporation and they do bad shit too, but I gotta give credit where it's due. They really have become a force for indies since the end of PS3. Indies absolutely was one of the core reasons I purchased a PS4, so I'm very happy.

Man I am so happy to hear about that too, I missed that story you posted. Seriously pay attention MS, get some good will. I know you can do it!

 

[Ravidrath]

It got a thread!

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=917137

Might be bumping it before too long, because I think we'll have some takers shortly.

 

[xxracerxx]

It got a thread!

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=917137

Might be bumping it before too long, because I think we'll have some takers shortly.

Make sure to get some Hori support in there, wink wink nod nod.

 

[Night Angel]

It's pretty clear that indies are filling the holes in the PS4's library. PS4 owners don't have the massive backlog that PC gamers do. There just aren't a whole lot of games yet.

I'm having trouble understanding how this is at all appropriate for this thread (and not a load of wank).

 

[PhatSaqs]

Microsoft will always strive to exert as much control as possible over anything - it's just in their bones.

Until they understand and accept that developers know what is best for their game and their audience, Microsoft will always be behind on this front. It is not MS's job to make all Xbox One owners feel "first class," it is the developer's job to make their current and potential customers feel that way.

SCEA bends over backwards for their devs and lets them try things and bend TRCs all over the place, because they trust that devs know what is best for their game.

http://www.polygon.com/2014/10/22/7040253/skullgirls-encore-ps4-supports-ps3-arcade-sticks-madcatz

See this? It goes against a lot of Sony TRCs, but they believed it was the right thing to do for the consumer and let us push ahead on it. And we talked to a ton of devs at PlayStation Experience that were excited that we'd give them code to support old peripherals on PS4.

Based on my experiences with MS, there is no way they would allow us to do something similar for Xbox One. It took two months to get a patch larger than 32 megs for the 360 version approved, because it had to be arbitrated on by some dark council. And this is a much bigger deal than something like that.

And we totally would if they'd let us.

Awesome shit. Im surprised Sony wouldnt look to implement something like this at an API level if they are willing to allow it at all. Seems like a no brainer. You should definitely approach MS with the idea.

 

[Neuromancer]

Does this mean I'd be able I play the new MK with a brawl pad?

 

[Ravidrath]

Make sure to get some Hori support in there, wink wink nod nod.

Hori works already.

Pretty much everything that works on a PC with a special driver does, at this point.

Awesome shit. Im surprised Sony wouldnt look to implement something like this at an API level if they are willing to allow it at all. Seems like a no brainer. You should definitely approach MS with the idea.

It's for security purposes. USB devices were how people cracked the PS3 to begin with, so they didn't want to leave it open on the OS-level this time.

This way the USB controls are entirely sandboxed to the game only, so it's much more secure.

 

[xxracerxx]

Hori works!

You guys are the best.

 

[Woo-Fu]

That was referring to the fact that not everyone buys Indie games.

As far as facts go that one is of zero value. Name any type of product. You'll find that "not everyone" buys it.

A person would have to have a fairly large stick up their butt to rule out any game simply because the developer was an "indie".

 

[Mahonay]

This has been an amazing thread. Been feeling really put off by some posting trends around here lately, but stuff like this is why I still check into the site constantly.

 

[PoweredByHentai]

Microsoft will always strive to exert as much control as possible over anything - it's just in their bones.

Until they understand and accept that developers know what is best for their game and their audience, Microsoft will always be behind on this front. It is not MS's job to make all Xbox One owners feel "first class," it is the developer's job to make their current and potential customers feel that way.

SCEA bends over backwards for their devs and lets them try things and bend TRCs all over the place, because they trust that devs know what is best for their game.

http://www.polygon.com/2014/10/22/7040253/skullgirls-encore-ps4-supports-ps3-arcade-sticks-madcatz

See this? It goes against a lot of Sony TRCs, but they believed it was the right thing to do for the consumer and let us push ahead on it. And we talked to a ton of devs at PlayStation Experience that were excited that we'd give them code to support old peripherals on PS4.

Based on my experiences with MS, there is no way they would allow us to do something similar for Xbox One. It took two months to get a patch larger than 32 megs for the 360 version approved, because it had to be arbitrated on by some dark council. And this is a much bigger deal than something like that.

And we totally would if they'd let us.

I have a BlazBlue Hori stick so I'm hoping that I can still use it on my PS4 once your USB driver goes live.

EDIT:
Ah, I just saw this:

Hori works already.

Pretty much everything that works on a PC with a special driver does, at this point.




It's for security purposes. USB devices were how people cracked the PS3 to begin with, so they didn't want to leave it open on the OS-level this time.

This way the USB controls are entirely sandboxed to the game only, so it's much more secure.

Huzzah! Celebrations are needed.

 

[Barkley's Justice]

Thanks for posting, Op!

 

[corrosivefrost]

Microsoft will always strive to exert as much control as possible over anything - it's just in their bones.

Until they understand and accept that developers know what is best for their game and their audience, Microsoft will always be behind on this front. It is not MS's job to make all Xbox One owners feel "first class," it is the developer's job to make their current and potential customers feel that way.

SCEA bends over backwards for their devs and lets them try things and bend TRCs all over the place, because they trust that devs know what is best for their game.

http://www.polygon.com/2014/10/22/7040253/skullgirls-encore-ps4-supports-ps3-arcade-sticks-madcatz

See this? It goes against a lot of Sony TRCs, but they believed it was the right thing to do for the consumer and let us push ahead on it. And we talked to a ton of devs at PlayStation Experience that were excited that we'd give them code to support old peripherals on PS4.

Based on my experiences with MS, there is no way they would allow us to do something similar for Xbox One. It took two months to get a patch larger than 32 megs for the 360 version approved, because it had to be arbitrated on by some dark council. And this is a much bigger deal than something like that.

And we totally would if they'd let us.

A bit OT, but it must be said:
Long live Lab Zero. I love you guys.

 

[Fuchalmania]

Great OP, and why I visit GAF daily.

 

[HMC]

Shouldn't the word "Indie" be in the thread title?

 

[ypo]

What ever happened to this? Seems like they just stopped talking about it

It went to the same place as the "azure servers are free for every developer": the clouds.

 

[xxracerxx]

Shouldn't the word "Indie" be in the thread title?

Doesn't really matter, they are still games.

Spoiler

Plus the thread title was changed already to this

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

Microsoft will always strive to exert as much control as possible over anything - it's just in their bones.

Until they understand and accept that developers know what is best for their game and their audience, Microsoft will always be behind on this front. It is not MS's job to make all Xbox One owners feel "first class," it is the developer's job to make their current and potential customers feel that way.

SCEA bends over backwards for their devs and lets them try things and bend TRCs all over the place, because they trust that devs know what is best for their game.

http://www.polygon.com/2014/10/22/7040253/skullgirls-encore-ps4-supports-ps3-arcade-sticks-madcatz

See this? It goes against a lot of Sony TRCs, but they believed it was the right thing to do for the consumer and let us push ahead on it. And we talked to a ton of devs at PlayStation Experience that were excited that we'd give them code to support old peripherals on PS4.

Based on my experiences with MS, there is no way they would allow us to do something similar for Xbox One. It took two months to get a patch larger than 32 megs for the 360 version approved, because it had to be arbitrated on by some dark council. And this is a much bigger deal than something like that.

And we totally would if they'd let us.

If you get more devs to support ps3 sticks on PS4, I can't express how much i'd be in your debt forever. As would a great deal of the FGC.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Oh I know Ravidrath. I totally 100% agree with you. I've been fighting this ID@Xbox parity clause since it was revealed, I made a thread about it in the start of 2014 and asked if we should start a social media campaign for it but there were no takers back then. I suspect people didn't realize just how big of a problem it was or didn't believe how big the problem would become

Xbox One's indie program by all accounts is pretty darn good outside of this issue, so it blows my mind they're staying stubborn about this.

Some were willing to push for change, I think the problem was that a lot of people couldn't see just how bad it would become at that time.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=731218

 

[m_dorian]

Good thread. Good discussion. Thanks OP.
This parity thing needs to be terminated.
Wake up Microsoft.

 

[Crayon]

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

It went to the same place as the "azure servers are free for every developer": the clouds.

I don't think that went away but people misunderstood what it was.

 

[Jamie OD]

Another Question. The parity clause. Is it just for consoles? As in PC and dedicated handhelds are not included?

Yeah, it's just for consoles. Many if not all of the games brought up in this thread have been PC releases first and foremost. The 3DS sounds like it's not effected by this but I guess the Vita can be because those versions usually have some sort of crossover with the PS3/4.

 

[Ape]

Edit:
https://twitter.com/AbsintheGames/status/542059956124389376

Xbox One indeed.

 

[BudokaiMR2]

Sign me up as a concerned publisher as well.

At PLAYISM, we are starting from this year to bring some of our higher qualityJapanese indie games to consoles on top of our PC releases.

Now, we have been in talks with Microsoft Japan and are hoping to get some wiggle room for our content. But yeah, right now we have about 6 games announced for PS platforms, and nothing for Xbox One.

Some of our developers want to support both platforms, but the current situation just makes that very difficult.

And it is even harder as the local market is obviously something very important to them, and with the sales of Xbox One in Japan it makes it even harder to justify supporting the platform from their perspective.

 

[Stealthcobra]

I buy indies for pennies on Steam sales. I could not care less if they ever show up, likely overpriced, on my Xbox.

I hope you don't think those steam sales are saving dev studios. I always read on here steam this or that sale... These indie devs have staffs... People to pay... You think they want to sell 10k at $3 or 10k at 14.99? Which on you think keeps them from going bankrupt?

 

[Apathy]

Microsoft should realise that their policy is hurting their plattform.
These indiegame are perfect to fill the gaps between bigger releases, Sony is building good relationships with many devs and by having way more indies on their platform their chance is higher to get the next minecraft.

Late is better than never, Microsoft.

This is the most important thing. Last generation we had the AA tier of developers to fill that gap. Whether people want to admit it or not, with the death of those mid tier publishers and studios, indies have taken over that space that they left void. Right now Sony is benefiting a lot from that.