That deserves front page sticky - great to hear that from an admin.
What makes Neogaf great and relentless
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Albert Penello puts dGPU Xbox One rumor to rest
- Thread starter anexanhume
- Start date
- Status
That deserves front page sticky - great to hear that from an admin.
What makes Neogaf great and relentless
because the "guaranteed" isn't guaranteed, 109gb/s is still the Theoretical maximum bandwith on a uni-directional bus, Microsoft say they can suddenly read and write during the same clock cycle in some situations and cited the maximum they had achieved was 133gb/s. Sony's Theoretical maximum is also a uni-directional bus at 176gb/s and they can achieve 176gb/s in the same way the XB1 can achieve the 109gb/s.
The simultaneous read/write at 200gb/s is completely theoretical where as the 176gb/s in PS4, just as the 109 gb/s or the 68gb/s in the XB1 are both reasonable expectations.
tl:dr
176 is fine
68 is fine
109 is fine
200gb/s+ is not close.
Also you don't just add them up.
qa_engineer
Member
LittleJohnny
Banned
I am not aware of Carmack stating anything since what was posted above.
The most compelling report to me is by heise.de towards c't editors. (With 241,000 subscriptions it is the computer magazine with the most subscribers in Europe.)
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=657221
"Behind the scenes, c't could hear from developers that the 3D-performance of PlayStation 4 is very far ahead of Xbox One."
2dshmuplover
Banned
True and that works for both consoles but I still think the games shown thus far (which are mere weeks from release) are far more indicative of console performance than any on-paper spec sheet.
Please stop the persecution complex and realize that some people know their stuff and see many mistakes in what Albert said. Not even necessarily about specs, since we don't know both companies' specs, but the math is all wrong.
Because that original proclamation was itself an attempt to spin a significant deficit.
He asked which actual developers said that, and I remembered that post from the thread yesterday so I dug it up. It's not an exhaustive list.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
Man, reading that Albert post just blows my mind how much disinformation is contained in there.
Some people are paranoid and won't see reason. Even when it's pointed out a billion times.
Can Crusher
Banned
I don't know if I should laugh or not that a PR guy decided to downplay a 50% difference in CU count and then doubled down on a 6%.... clock difference. This guy just had a jump the shark moment.
But it doesnt have that. If it did then the max BW would be double 104 GB/s and it would have been design that way. You just find you can read and write at the last minute. Unless MS hardware team doesnt have a clue what they are designing.
Its just SCREAM we need a number that higher than PS4.
I picture him as Michael Shannon and Ashley Judd in the movie Bug.
Syphon Filter
Member
I''ll take carmack over him.
Bish just told you why you wouldn't be surprised.
No one is making fun of him...what they are doing is poking holes in his factually incorrect post. Not even just factually incorrect...BLATANTLY wrong and misleading....on purpose.
But we expect nothing less from you.
thesuperfunk
Member
Have you seen how big the XB1 is?
At this point, Penello's gonna need a pack of angry bears at his beck and call...
Which is basically just my point. Why open himself (and MS in general) up to the criticism? Even I can see the holes in the logic, and the convenient omissions. What good does putting himself, an MS rep, personally into the conversation do for MS?
How do you know that . And even if its that, developers have good idea how spec relates to real life especially since most are working on games for both system.
In fact these dev know much more than Albert because they have both machines with them
BRocknRolla
Member
Maybe I'm an absolute pessimist, but my thought is that a lot of third party devs targeted PCs with only a generalized idea of where the console power would lie. Once they found out the reality, they did their best to get the game running at serviceable performance, and left it at that. A lot of optimization won't be done on each specific console because why bother as long as it is sufficient? Now that the tech is known, devs can start working on their engines to find better and easier ways to optimize going forward, but crunching on it for launch games isn't worthwhile. Therefore, I don't think there will be a serious performance differential regardless of the better hardware.
As time goes on, devs use the tricks they learn and spend more time optimizing, but I think that means the actual performance difference will be seen in your second wave of games. (The ones that got started after official dev kits went out.) Like I said, maybe that's total pessimism, but I believe it will lead to a lot of peopled yelling, "SEE THERE'S NO DIFFERENCE," and others yelling, "YOU HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL LATER!" I think the later is the logical conclusion, but regardless, I think it means many more inane debates based on information that means very little.
(Edit: Which, after rereading your post, it sounds like you actually agree with this idea.)
Like this?
AND... Scene. Well played.
There are comments based on a lack of evidence from all sides. This is precisely why we shouldn't be waiting to see benchmarks and other actual performance tests with verifiable data.
Carjack said he's under NDA, so he can't get into specifics. This guy is not, and is just saying what he's heard.
Wolves Evolve
Member
Putting aside the technical questions for a moment, here's a couple of other elements that can be assembled.
- Albert feels it necessary to come out on Twitter to say the difference is exaggerated.
- Albert feels it necessary to come into NeoGAF to make sure he's not overstepping the bounds or pushing it too far, but adds technical details about Xbone's performance and design.
- Microsoft have made several performance gains in the months before release and made sure the world knows about it. This is compared to their detail-less reveal.
- Developers are happy to say that PS4 is 40, 50 more powerful, no developers have yet praised the tuning of the Xbox One as being so amazing that it negates the performance advantage.
The only reasonable conclusion is that inside Microsoft, they're worried about what we think of the machine's performance. Obviously.
The worst part? Even rabid fanchildren know that performance doesn't underwrite game performance the way it used to. Multiplatform games will likely be engineered to a similar level and only a few games will escape that reality. Why would Microsoft be so concerned about the gaming culture's perception of performance when the games look just as good at present, with a couple of arguable exceptions?
We will find out if there's a huge difference in a couple of months, there's little that can be done about it then.
- Albert feels it necessary to come out on Twitter to say the difference is exaggerated.
- Albert feels it necessary to come into NeoGAF to make sure he's not overstepping the bounds or pushing it too far, but adds technical details about Xbone's performance and design.
- Microsoft have made several performance gains in the months before release and made sure the world knows about it. This is compared to their detail-less reveal.
- Developers are happy to say that PS4 is 40, 50 more powerful, no developers have yet praised the tuning of the Xbox One as being so amazing that it negates the performance advantage.
The only reasonable conclusion is that inside Microsoft, they're worried about what we think of the machine's performance. Obviously.
The worst part? Even rabid fanchildren know that performance doesn't underwrite game performance the way it used to. Multiplatform games will likely be engineered to a similar level and only a few games will escape that reality. Why would Microsoft be so concerned about the gaming culture's perception of performance when the games look just as good at present, with a couple of arguable exceptions?
We will find out if there's a huge difference in a couple of months, there's little that can be done about it then.
Especially if BMW was crazy enough to sell the M3 to me for 20% less than a 335.
As someone who knows next to nothing about this stuff hearing what developers say means more than anything. MS can say whatever they want but as long as developers continue to say things like 40% more powerful I will believe that.
In the end I don't really care but I eagerly await the sequel to Major Nelson's completely unbiased look at the 360 and PS3.
BrokenEchelon
Banned
People have pointed out that MS (seemingly) only started gaining interest in GAF after the DRM fiasco. I wouldn't be at all surprised that they didn't know what kind of a den of truth wolves they were jumping into and were hoping to that the spin would trickle down from the "hardcore" to their more casual friends.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
Likely did the obvious. Probably asked and found out from developers personally.
People from MS have been posting on here directly and participating on the forums for years now. The MS is newly interested in GAF storyline that people are trying to push doesn't square with the facts. Or have you already forgotten the Jeff Bell incident? Or the countless interactions we've had with people like Frankie, both when he was in Bungie, and also when he made the move over to 343 to help steer the Halo franchise.
Hi Albert!
I don't mean to be rude but most of the stuff you post sounds like stuff we have been hearing from other people around the boards for a while now and almost none of it is technically correct or new.
Had this discussion been about PowerPC or some other PC architecture I would believe you but you have to realize that you are talking about architectures we have been familiar with for over 20 years and throwing out buzzwords and inaccurate numbers really doesn't help your argument.
I don't want to sound offensive but I just feel like Microsoft is trying to throw smoke in consumers' eyes for a while now. First, it was the power of the cloud that would help the Xbox One perform better, then it was the ESRAM, then it was Direct X 11.2, and now we have optimizations that will help the Xbox One get more out of the hardware.
We have had every third party acknowledge the difference and we have had 1 actually come out and say the difference in performance is around 50% so as you can see I am more inclined to believe a developer that's actually working on the games and doesn't really have a horse in the race.
I do appreciate you hanging around and talking to us though.
These threads would improve greatly if people would not interpret every statement ad hominem or as a statement of console warfare but treat them as statements of fact that can be subject to critical thinking and rational discourse.
Even if we don't have the full system design specification of any console at our hands, the general technology and computer science involved is public knowledge. And many people here and not just armchair engineers, but make their living by working in those or related fields every day. This gives us a pretty damn good basis to discuss statements like the ones in this thread objectively and, maybe, learn something in the process and eliminate our misunderstandings. Tech is fascinating, and this fascination does not deserve to be spoiled by trying "to win".
I guess some peoples opinion on Albert's statements being ripped apart as wrong need to ask themselves why they so blindly listen to what other people in power/authority say without asking why? We all have a brain, don't be a sheep. That goes for any situation in life.
You don't need to use someone else's opinion as fact, absorb/create your own.
You don't need to use someone else's opinion as fact, absorb/create your own.
Or maybe they just want to correct some misinformation
statham
Member
I know PS4 is more powerful, but I do think the XB1 has some advantages in some areas. but overall the PS4 is more powerful, I don't think any regular xbox fan on this site doubts this. It hasn't swayed my purchasing opinion, I'm excited to see what kinect can bring to the table.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
He claims that it's not a simple 6% increase.
It's a 6% increase per CU!...as though that makes a difference???
Using the logic he used for the memory bandwidth, that means 6% increase x 12 CU's = 72% increase, putting it well beyond the PS4!
BrokenEchelon
Banned
With more misinformation. Makes sense.
Zombie James
Banned
Holy shit.
Now I'm not sure what to believe
I have to imagine it's a situation where someone who has been closely associated with the project for years doesn't want to downplay his creation. Albert's post are usually honest and do away with the PR speak, but he's not going to admit there's a significant difference in power, especially if that difference has a tendency to be exaggerated.
I honestly think a lot of people are used to game consoles being non-X86 so that secret sauce and all that jazz plays heavily in their minds. Unfortunately for them this time around, both systems ARE based on x86 and we have technical wizards who have been working with this architecture for decades. There's 0 chance for either company to pull a fast one..and we're seeing that in this thread with Alberts post.
...We've had a majority of technical users in this thread all challenge his post.
Alright I get how good a game looks is subjective from person to person. That's all fine and dandy and obvious. But saying a game looks significantly downgraded from a CGI to real time graphics POV is ridiculous. Especially comparing screens and videos from a bunch of off screen footage vs direct.
Deep Down does look a bit worse then then its initial reveal, but no where near motorstorm levels.
Sure. If you say so
Hilarious this guys kept on saying how we shouldn't judge now because there are so many unknown components in both systems (to even him) yet he knows for sure the difference is overstated.
edit: just saw his crappy and misleading tech breakdown/analysis. Stick to PR at least you are decent at that.
edit: just saw his crappy and misleading tech breakdown/analysis. Stick to PR at least you are decent at that.
BrokenEchelon
Banned
Countless people in this thread with far more knowledge in this area than myself say so, and they're not getting a paycheck from Microsoft OR Sony.
Nothing wrong with wanting one console over the other regardless of power. Power shouldn't be that crucial of a factor into the console purchase. We are just saying Albert's post is full of misleading and inaccurate "facts".
- Status