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[Big One]

OoT and MM?

MM is complete, but OoT wasn't. OoT despite it's success is a largely incomplete game.

 

[BY2K]

MM is complete, but OoT wasn't. OoT despite it's success is a largely incomplete game.

You mean the Ice and Wind Sages?

 

[oatmeal]

MM is complete, but OoT wasn't. OoT despite it's success is a largely incomplete game.

I think that like anything, it's never really 'complete'. They could continue to add until they die...

It just gets to the point where you have to get it out there.

DNF is the only game that doesn't really follow that logic.

 

[Lord_Byron28]

That probably has to do with the fact that Wind Waker isn't a complete game. Skyward Sword is. Matter of fact I don't think it'd be off to say that it's the first 3D Zelda to be truly complete.

TP looked pretty complete to me. Didn't Iwata/Aonuma much later reveal that the game could've shipped late 2005 but they decided to delay it a year just for the Wii version.

I think that like anything, it's never really 'complete'. They could continue to add until they die...

It just gets to the point where you have to get it out there.

I wouldn't say OoT was largely incomplete but there was a lot cut or featured taken out that they wanted to accomplish but couldn't due to time constraints and hardware constraints. I wouldn't say MM was incomplete but it was definetly designed to take only a year of development time.

 

[Enduin]

TP was pretty complete, it was just marred by some terrible design choices. Nothing game-killing, but it has some issues.

TP was about complete as you can get with a game that was butchered and pasted together. In terms of plot progression and narrative it was a mess, and then judging from vids we saw prior to launch there were a ton of gameplay aspects and areas that were left out or cut out.

They werent limited in time and forced to leave stuff out like in WW but they definitely altered the game a lot at some point well into development and it suffered for it in a lot of ways. I mean even the game box shows an image with a magic bar and then the game doesnt even have magic in it.

 

[oatmeal]

I wouldn't say OoT was largely incomplete but there was a lot cut or featured taken out that they wanted to accomplish but couldn't due to time constraints and hardware constraints. I wouldn't say MM was incomplete but it was definetly designed to take only a year of development time.

Well that's what I mean.

You have to cut yourself off at some point. You can't responsibly add everything without going over budget, running out of time, etc. Everything has limits.

I'm sure there's stuff that they wanted to do in SS that they're not able to.

Spoiler

Like make it good.../trollface

 

[WillyFive]

Nothing is ever 'complete', it just runs out of time and/or money.

 

[RagnarokX]

Is that Volvagia on the Fire Temple's door?

Hmmm, I forgot about Volvagia. We already know the fire temple boss is a fire marble spider, but maybe you go back later to help the Gorons deal with Volvagia. Volvagia eating Gorons could be the genesis of Death Mountain.

"A long time ago there was an evil dragon named Volvagia living in this mountain. That dragon was very scary! He ate Gorons! Using a huge hammer, the hero of the Gorons... BOOOM! Destroyed it just like that. This is a myth from long ago, but it's true! I know, because my dad is a descendant of the hero!"

Link to have freaky Goron sex?

 

[oatmeal]

TP was about complete as you can get with a game that was butchered and pasted together. In terms of plot progression and narrative it was a mess, and then judging from vids we saw prior to launch there were a ton of gameplay aspects and areas that were left out or cut out.

They werent limited in time and forced to leave stuff out like in WW but they definitely altered the game a lot at some point well into development and it suffered for it in a lot of ways. I mean even the game box shows an image with a magic bar and then the game doesnt even have magic in it.

Unfortunately, magic hasn't really meant anything in a Zelda game since LTTP.

And yeah, TP was a mess in that respect, but that's because Nintendo (from what I recall) spent so much time on scenarios and the engine that they had all of these chunks of the game and forced the story around them.

Something like that.

 

[Oblivion]

I can't see the video.

On the subject of the actual air travel, I have a slight feeling this'll be more annoying to traverse than WW's ocean. Afterall, ocean travel is still on one plane, but with this, you have the whole z-axis thing and godidontknowhathehellimtalkingaboutkdfjlkdjflkjdfljfdljfdkjfdk....

 

[udivision]

Hmmm, I forgot about Volvagia. We already know the fire temple boss is a fire marble spider, but maybe you go back later to help the Gorons deal with Volvagia. Volvagia eating Gorons could be the genesis of Death Mountain.

"A long time ago there was an evil dragon named Volvagia living in this mountain. That dragon was very scary! He ate Gorons! Using a huge hammer, the hero of the Gorons... BOOOM! Destroyed it just like that. This is a myth from long ago, but it's true! I know, because my dad is a descendant of the hero!"

Link to have freaky Goron sex?

My dad is the descendant of the hero, as in the hero of the gorons. Not the hero of time/space.

 

[BY2K]

I believe I was told that the game is fully orchestrated and nothing stuck out to me as particularly not orchestrated during my time playing it, but I'm also not the most hardcore music guy on staff, so it's totally possible that I just wasn't listening close enough. Everything I heard from the music, I loved, though. Some stuff that's very weird and uncharacteristic of a Zelda game, but very cool.

God I hope you are right.

And good to hear about the Silent Realm.

 

[civilstrife]

If (when) the German demo is ripped and put online, what will be GAF's policy about its discussion?

Will downloading a demo from another region and playing it on your homebrewed wii be considered piracy?

 

[ASIS]

Looks like a ton of tiny-tiny pointless islands.

Yay.

You seem very optimistic.

In all seriousness, you don't have to visit the islands if you don't want to.

 

[oatmeal]

You seem very optimistic.

In all seriousness, you don't have to visit the islands if you don't want to.

I'm sure I will. And each little hole that has a single treasure chest will just be a delight to 'find'.

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

I can't see the video.

On the subject of the actual air travel, I have a slight feeling this'll be more annoying to traverse than WW's ocean. Afterall, ocean travel is still on one plane, but with this, you have the whole z-axis thing and godidontknowhathehellimtalkingaboutkdfjlkdjflkjdfljfdljfdkjfdk....

I think up/down movement will be pretty limited (notice the wall of clouds beneath link as he is falling onto that skyland in the pic posted earlier). I don't think we'll really miss any skylands by flying too high above them or too far below them. I think we'll be able too see them as long as we're heading in the direction of them.

 

[hellclerk]

TP looked pretty complete to me. Didn't Iwata/Aonuma much later reveal that the game could've shipped late 2005 but they decided to delay it a year just for the Wii version.

There were alot of narrative elements missing from the game. Illia for example was pretty much dropped like a ton of bricks after she got her memory back. It felt pretty anti-climactic to that extent. Heck, pretty much every narrative arc in the game that WASN'T Midna was pretty much half-explored and elaborated upon. Zant was even worse after his "Oh Great, now Gannon" final battle. It was a fantastic game, but they definitely did not get to do everything in that they wanted in.

 

[BY2K]

If (when) the German demo is ripped and put online, what will be GAF's policy about its discussion?

Will downloading a demo from another region and playing it on your homebrewed wii be considered piracy?

EatChildren said discussion about the demo itself and impressions will be allowed, but nothing about where and how to get the demo will.

 

[OrangeGrayBlue]

If (when) the German demo is ripped and put online, what will be GAF's policy about its discussion?

Will downloading a demo from another region and playing it on your homebrewed wii be considered piracy?

You're allowed to talk about the actual content of the demo, but not your method of obtaining it.

 

[Enduin]

Unfortunately, magic hasn't really meant anything in a Zelda game since LTTP.

And yeah, TP was a mess in that respect, but that's because Nintendo (from what I recall) spent so much time on scenarios and the engine that they had all of these chunks of the game and forced the story around them.

Something like that.

Pretty much. It felt like they had done all this work to make the game one way and then late in the game decided to make it another way but tried to work in all that stuff they already had done. Its still a great game compared to most others and was fun as shit to play twice now for me, but its flaws a pretty glaring and its one of my biggest "what could have been" games.

 

[BY2K]

Oh hey, the Australian Skyward Sword website opened, and the release date is also November 20th.

 

[oatmeal]

Pretty much. It felt like they had done all this work to make the game one way and then late in the game decided to make it another way but tried to work in all that stuff they already had done. Its still a great game compared to most others and was fun as shit to play twice now for me, but its flaws a pretty glaring and its one of my biggest "what could have been" games.

Just.

Fucking.

Take away the bullshit tutorial, get me to the first dungeon within an hour and a half and I'd forgive it for a lot of the stuff it did.

My second playthrough, I cringed as I slowly made my way through. Every time I had to collect tears, I died a little inside.

First time through it was fine, but my God...doing that again was awful.

Playing through OoT 3DS really showed how big of a step backwards TP was in its overall design.

 

[RagnarokX]

My dad is the descendant of the hero, as in the hero of the gorons. Not the hero of time/space.

And if the hero of the Gorons is SKYWARD SWORD Link?

 

[civilstrife]

EatChildren said discussion about the demo itself and impressions will be allowed, but nothing about where and how to get the demo will.

thanks!

 

[brandonh83]

The atmosphere in the tears collectathon might be why I didn't mind it at all. I was swept up in that shit, loved every second of the Twilight realm.

 

[oatmeal]

The atmosphere in the tears collectathon might be why I didn't mind it at all. I was swept up in that shit, loved every second of the Twilight realm.

The first time.

 

[Enduin]

The first time.

Yeah but I mean the game was long and enjoyable the first time around. Im a fast completionist by most standards and I still took a good 44 hours to beat TP on my first run. So with a game that long Im ok with it having some segments that arent so fun the second time around as long as they were fun the first time.

If SS can really break that 50 hour mark of the 50-100 hours Nintendo is touting, I will be more than happy with it and fine if on my second playthrough there are a few segments that might drag on too long for my tastes. It becomes any issue if the game falls short of that 50 hour mark because then those segments will feel even more purposely dragged on to fill out the game.

 

[BY2K]

Blue: Clawshot target.
Red: Door frame, possibly means there's a door there.

If I remember correctly, the Fire Temple "First" item is the Bomb Bag. So I think you definitely return to dungeons later in the game.

 

[watershed]

I just hope falling accurately isn't going to be a problem. I'd hate to have to do that over and over again just to reach an island. In someways flying seems like a streamlined version of sailing with the removal of wind direction and faster travel speed. I just hope there aren't other aspects that make the traveling boring or just not fun to do.

 

[Lord_Byron28]

There were alot of narrative elements missing from the game. Illia for example was pretty much dropped like a ton of bricks after she got her memory back. It felt pretty anti-climactic to that extent. Heck, pretty much every narrative arc in the game that WASN'T Midna was pretty much half-explored and elaborated upon.

Isn't this what happens in most Zelda games though? I think one of the reasons Midna is adored so much is that she is one of the only characters(outside of the triforce holders) to have a story arc, cohesive flow and constant presence throughout the entire game. I can think of tons of Zelda games where they have a heavy presence and then their character arc is dropped like a rock and is wrapped up fairly quickly. I didn't think Ilia's was that bad anyway compared to most Zelda game stories. You're introduced and establish a bond with Ilia, she's captured and taken away, prior to the 2nd dungeon you run into the kids of the village who were also kidnapped, prior to the 3rd dungeon you help cure the Zora prince, tell him about his mother's death and meet Ilia who has lost her memories, her and Telma stay in Kakariko village for a while, after the 6th dungeon you restore her memories and she goes back to Ordon village, you beat two dungeons/the game and she is waiting at Ordon Village for you to return.

 

[brandonh83]

The first time.

It was like that the second time for me too!

 

[Enduin]

Isn't this what happens in most Zelda games though? I think one of the reasons Midna is adored so much is that she is one of the only characters(outside of the triforce holders) to have a story arc, cohesive flow and constant presence throughout the entire game. I can think of tons of Zelda games where they have a heavy presence and then their character arc is dropped like a rock and is wrapped up fairly quickly.

The issue with TP was that they so clearly had been focused on creating a strong narrative and then began to put the game all together and were like "shit, well this isnt going to work. I gus just mash whatever you can in there and we'll see how it works" and then proceeded to butcher it to pieces. No previous Zelda had as great a focus on the storyline as TP did, and they advertised that pretty heavily at first. Plus I believe it had the largest amount of cutscenes and intricate cutscenes in Zelda game.

I have a feeling the game was a lot darker and bizarre than it turned out to be and that Miyamoto or someone felt they needed to up end the tea table and soften it up, which meant cutting out a bunch of stuff and leaving a ton of plot lines unresolved and half explained.

 

[Poyunch]

Isn't this what happens in most Zelda games though? I think one of the reasons Midna is adored so much is that she is one of the only characters(outside of the triforce holders) to have a story arc, cohesive flow and constant presence throughout the entire game. I can think of tons of Zelda games where they have a heavy presence and then their character arc is dropped like a rock and is wrapped up fairly quickly. I didn't think Ilia's was that bad anyway compared to most Zelda game stories. You're introduced and establish a bond with Ilia, she's captured and taken away, prior to the 2nd dungeon you run into the kids of the village who were also kidnapped, prior to the 3rd dungeon you help cure the Zora prince, tell him about his mother's death and meet Ilia who has lost her memories, her and Telma stay in Kakariko village for a while, after the 6th dungeon you restore her memories and she goes back to Ordon village, you beat two dungeons/the game and she is waiting at Ordon Village for you to return.

One could argue that even the triforce holders lacked a story arc. Link was just there. He had no motivation other than to do what's right, Zelda did mostly nothing and Ganondorf popped in so late in the game that his impact on the overall story was pretty excessive.

 

[Lord_Byron28]

One could argue that even the triforce holders lacked a story arc. Link was just there. He had no motivation other than to do what's right, Zelda did mostly nothing and Ganondorf popped in so late in the game that his impact on the overall story was pretty excessive.

I meant in the overall series, outside of the triforce bearers, there haven't been many characters with a cohesive and persistent story arc. Zelda's story was awful and didn't really make sense. Ganondorf was introduced mid way through the game and his story wasn't really a surprise or anything but he had no personality other than stereotypical bad guy. Which was dissapointing because I thought OoT and TWW gave Ganondorf and Zelda plenty of personality, background and motivations for what they were doing. Link has never had a huge compelling motivation because Nintendo purposefully makes him rather muted. I'd say TP Link is slightly under WW Link(Which I think is the most expressive Link) in terms of personality, motivation and purpose. His motivation was to save Ilia who he clearly cared for and liked/loved a lot. Upon trying to do this he discovers this is apart of a much bigger conflict about the Twilight realm and he gets tangled up in that because of Midna. In order to help save Ilia, his village and Hyrule he has to help/work for Midna. Him and Midna develop a close bond as well.

 

[RagnarokX]

One could argue that even the triforce holders lacked a story arc. Link was just there. He had no motivation other than to do what's right, Zelda did mostly nothing and Ganondorf popped in so late in the game that his impact on the overall story was pretty excessive.

I think the point was to minimize the triforce influence, but it was very poorly handled. If you paid attention to the series you can figure out how they got the triforce, but how really wasn't important. To be honest, I'm not sure how they could have explained it clearly without some deus ex machina god character coming out of nowhere and saying "It was because Zelda sent the Hero of Time back in time with the triforce of courage and..."

But yeah, it did sort of diminish those 3. Ganon got awesome character development in Wind Waker after being humbled in OoT, but in TP OoT never happened and Ganon thinks the gods gave him the triforce so he's just a 1 dimensional arrogant ass. Zelda's only there to give her special powers to Midna so she can exist in the light world and Link's triforce isn't really hit on that much. But TP is a game where OoT never happened, so the specialness of the triforce HAS to be diminished.

 

[Sinoox]

I think it was meant to be a hexagonal shape.

Then they would have exaggerated its shape. It's just a low polygon count.

 

[Lord_Byron28]

Then they would have exaggerated its shape. It's just a low polygon count.

It was meant to be an octagon. It's quite obvious, is slightly exagerated and I don't see how they were trying to make a circle with a series of straight lines.. The island's outline could be because of loy poly count tho.

 

[oatmeal]

Yeah but I mean the game was long and enjoyable the first time around. Im a fast completionist by most standards and I still took a good 44 hours to beat TP on my first run. So with a game that long Im ok with it having some segments that arent so fun the second time around as long as they were fun the first time.

If SS can really break that 50 hour mark of the 50-100 hours Nintendo is touting, I will be more than happy with it and fine if on my second playthrough there are a few segments that might drag on too long for my tastes. It becomes any issue if the game falls short of that 50 hour mark because then those segments will feel even more purposely dragged on to fill out the game.

It's one thing if they're long and slow the first time and not fun the second time, but the Tears stuff (and a lot of the areas in the game, like the Lost Woods) wasn't fun the first time either. It was tolerable.

 

[Laughing Banana]

I can't believe it. After so many years we FINALLY get a true love story between Link and Zelda.

Love story.... really? I would love for this to happen but....

 

[AceBandage]

Love story.... really? I would love for this to happen but....

Yeah, it's not a full on love story.
Hinted at very strongly, but not a major point of the game.

 

[oatmeal]

It was like that the second time for me too!

No wonder we always argue.

 

[Lord_Byron28]

Love story.... really? I would love for this to happen but....

I really don't think people should expect a love story from Link and Zelda. The closest I think we will get is something on a similar level to Link and Ilia

 

[Laughing Banana]

Yeah, it's not a full on love story.
Hinted at very strongly, but not a major point of the game.

I would love to be proven wrong though. REALLY love to be proven wrong.

 

[Lunar15]

Has anyone else pointed out that items are slightly contextual now? The sail cloth is a perfect example. Link has the beetle equipped, but when he's falling, pressing the item button will allow him to use the sail cloth.

I feel like there was another example of this, but I forget what it was.

Also, this whole "hit the box, make a chest appear in the sky" system somewhat reminds me of the Minish Cap, which is not that uprising given the director. In the minish cap, fusing kinstones in one place would cause something completely different to happen in another place. It's a two step approach that I find pretty interesting and engaging.

 

[Platy]

Love story.... really? I would love for this to happen but....

 

[Lunar15]

Hey, has someone taken a map of TP or OOT and superimposed it on the map of The Sky?

I wouldn't be surprised if there were some connections.


I just realized: does the fact that there's a "world map" button on the Sky Map screen mean that the world below the clouds is connected? I was under the assumption that it would be separate sections, but this seems to imply that it is one big map.

 

[Chet Rippo]

Hey, has someone taken a map of TP or OOT and superimposed it on the map of The Sky?

I wouldn't be surprised if there were some connections.

If the red and green dots with white outlines mark the location of Eldin Volcano and Faron Woods, it does correlate with OoT's map

Align Skyloft with the Hyrule field they match up pretty well. so we should see Lake Hylia to the south west and Gerudo Desert to the west in SS.

 

[SirPenguin]

Assuming the red dot on the SS map is the Fire Temple, then even that lines up with Death Mountain
neat

 

[BY2K]

Assuming the red dot on the SS map is the Fire Temple, then even that lines up with Death Mountain
neat

It is. Green is Forest Temple Area, Red is Eldin Volcano (Fire Temple Area.)

 

[Anth0ny]

If the red and green dots with white outlines mark the location of Eldin Volcano and Faron Woods, it does correlate with OoT's map

Align Skyloft with the Hyrule field they match up pretty well. so we should see Lake Hylia to the south west and Gerudo Desert to the west in SS.

White cloud in SS map=Gerudo Valley

SHIT IS GOING DOWN