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[Red]

I was referring to Cryengine 3 in Crysis 2, and there's nothing a generation ahead of it that I'm aware of. The game that makes the best modder work in Cryengine 3 look like garbage could look Avatar in the eye and not flinch.

Okay, I thought you were saying Cryengine 2 earlier. I understand a bit better now, but I have no idea what you are saying with the bolded here. I think I get the gist -- that Cryengine 4 may be Avatar level -- but I don't know what that sentence means, unless I'm reading it incorrectly all the words seem jumbled together.

I disagree with the idea though. Avatar-level and playable is not one engine generation ahead.

Reading back the sentence, I think I get it. You're saying whatever game surpasses the best Cryengine 3 offers will be on par with Avatar. If that's the case, I disagree even more strongly. Avatar is so far beyond current engines, it's not a matter of one more step up.

In some aspects we have exceeded it.

Lighting and model complexity in many modern games exceed Toy Story's, but virtually everything else remains behind. Though being more complex does not necessarily mean they look better, only that they are more detailed. Toy Story's art design compensates for simpler models through the use of round surfaces.

 

[SapientWolf]

Okay, I thought you were saying Cryengine 2 earlier. I understand a bit better now, but I have no idea what you are saying with the bolded here. I think I get the gist -- that Cryengine 4 may be Avatar level -- but I don't know what that sentence means, unless I'm reading it incorrectly all the words seem jumbled together.

I disagree with the idea though. Avatar-level and playable is not one engine generation ahead.

People said that watching Avatar made them feel like they were transported to another planet. It looked gorgeous and it seemed like a genuine place to mainstream moviegoers, rather than simply good CG. So I think the game that shames Cryengine 3 might be in the realm of photorealism, and could generate similar reactions.

The visuals won't need to be exactly as good as Avatar's to get that response. Just in the same ballpark.

 

[Fernando Rocker]

So... after reading the thread AMD: Next Xbox Graphics Will Look Like AVATAR and some of the responses... I have to ask...

Do you really, deep down inside, believe that? I mean, I know some people won't agree with me immediately, mainly because you won't remember... but current consoles and gaming PC's can't even run Toy Story 1 in real time!

I bet a lot of you guys are going to say that we already surpassed Toy Story 1 with real time graphics, but I dare you to see the movie in Blu-ray and say that it is possible to render that in real time: the perfect textures, perfect shadows, the beautifully rendered water... perfect lighting and reflections... just look at the outside scenes (almost at the end): every tree has individually rendered leaves. Same with the grass.

These images don't do justice to how the film looks in motion.

And this is a movie released 16 years ago!

 

[Red]

So... after reading the thread AMD: Next Xbox Graphics Will Look Like AVATAR and some of the responses... I have to ask...

Do you really, deep down inside, believe that? I mean, I know some people won't agree with me immediately, mainly because you won't remember... but current consoles and gaming PC's can't even run Toy Story 1 in real time!

I bet a lot of you guys are going to say that we already surpassed Toy Story 1 with real time graphics, but I dare you to see the movie in Blu-ray and say that it is possible to render that in real time: the perfect textures, perfect shadows, the beautifully rendered water... perfect lighting and reflections... just look at the outside scenes (almost at the end): every tree has individually rendered leaves. Same with the grass.

These images don't do justice to how the film looks in motion.

That's what many of us have been arguing. You don't have to bet anything, people are actually saying current games have surpassed Toy Story.

I am as baffled as you are.

 

[Melchiah]

Actually that's the pre-rendered version. There was also a real-time version that didn't look nearly as good. However, it ran on Nvidia NV15 (GeForce 2 GTS) which had less power/performance and features than the final NV2A in Xbox.


pre-rendered http://www.totalracingsims.com/videogames/xbox_robot_1.jpg

real-time version on NV15 / GeForce 2 GTS
http://xboxmedia.ign.com/media/news/image/demoscreens/newraven_2.jpg


Of course, Xbox could've done it alot better than the NV15 version but not as good as the pre-rendered version. It would take at least an Xbox 360 to pull off the CG.

That pre-rendered version is from the Xbox unveiling event, and IIRC it was implied it represents what the console was capable of.

 

[UrbanRats]

"This is a new canvas for humanity that takes us back to our nature."

This is such a strange statement.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

So... after reading the thread AMD: Next Xbox Graphics Will Look Like AVATAR and some of the responses... I have to ask...

Do you really, deep down inside, believe that? I mean, I know some people won't agree with me immediately, mainly because you won't remember... but current consoles and gaming PC's can't even run Toy Story 1 in real time!

I bet a lot of you guys are going to say that we already surpassed Toy Story 1 with real time graphics, but I dare you to see the movie in Blu-ray and say that it is possible to render that in real time: the perfect textures, perfect shadows, the beautifully rendered water... perfect lighting and reflections... just look at the outside scenes (almost at the end): every tree has individually rendered leaves. Same with the grass.

These images don't do justice to how the film looks in motion.

And this is a movie released 16 years ago!

this is running on an xbox 360.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M04SMNkTx9E&feature

I think toy story has been surpassed in many ways, and yes, there's always going to be things that CG can do better. It's always going to be an unfair compairson, CG movies are static frames, games are interactive, that alone will always ensure that videogames will never be the same level as CG, that said I think we've definetly passed the equivelent of toystory for graphics in games.

 

[Blackface]

So... after reading the thread AMD: Next Xbox Graphics Will Look Like AVATAR and some of the responses... I have to ask...

Do you really, deep down inside, believe that? I mean, I know some people won't agree with me immediately, mainly because you won't remember... but current consoles and gaming PC's can't even run Toy Story 1 in real time!

I bet a lot of you guys are going to say that we already surpassed Toy Story 1 with real time graphics, but I dare you to see the movie in Blu-ray and say that it is possible to render that in real time: the perfect textures, perfect shadows, the beautifully rendered water... perfect lighting and reflections... just look at the outside scenes (almost at the end): every tree has individually rendered leaves. Same with the grass.

These images don't do justice to how the film looks in motion.

And this is a movie released 16 years ago!

You are not taking into account all the things games do better, and how comes look. When I look at that, I see amazing lighting, great AA, horrible models, horrible textures and lazy backdrops.

There are many amateur 3d modelers/texture artists putting up better quality work from their basement online now-a-days.

You have to remember. Games are rendered in real-time. You can move the camera anywhere you want. Movies have fixed camera angels (allowing better lighting) and take MONTHS to render, to get that level of AA.

Games have surpassed Toy Story 1 easily. Especially when you consider games are rendered in real time. When you turn your camera to look at a sun in Red Dead Redemption, the shadows and lighting on your character are not pre-rendered like a movie is.

 

[amstradcpc]

Has anybody wondered why the AMD representative refered only to "Xbox" and said nothing about "playstation"?. If the Hardcop rumour was true saying this is like saying "Playstation"´s new console graphics will be worse than Avatar...
I wonder if finally Sony chose power vr 6 for PS4 or if saying the "next xbox" implies the microsoft+sony console.

 

[Projectjustice]

Actually that's the pre-rendered version. There was also a real-time version that didn't look nearly as good. However, it ran on Nvidia NV15 (GeForce 2 GTS) which had less power/performance and features than the final NV2A in Xbox.


pre-rendered

real-time version on NV15 / GeForce 2 GTS

Of course, Xbox could've done it alot better than the NV15 version but not as good as the pre-rendered version. It would take at least an Xbox 360 to pull off the CG.

Bald chick should of gotten her own game!

 

[sn00zer]

I bet a lot of you guys are going to say that we already surpassed Toy Story 1 with real time graphics, but I dare you to see the movie in Blu-ray and say that it is possible to render that in real time: the perfect textures, perfect shadows, the beautifully rendered water... perfect lighting and reflections... just look at the outside scenes (almost at the end): every tree has individually rendered leaves. Same with the grass.

And this is a movie released 16 years ago!

IQ and "perfect" lighting/shadows/water...is in reality just bells and whistles...people don't care if lighting is raytraced or prebaked, if reflections are perfectly accurate or if they just look close enough, or if textures are at high resolutions or "perfect" resolution, or if a model is millions of polygons or a normal map is applied.

The things you point out go mostly unnoticed by 99% of the gaming community and TBH don't really matter when you are trying to sell a game. A gamer could glance at a nextgen game and say "wow that looks like Avatar" they arent going to care when someone comes in and tries to tell them different by pointing out things they didnt notice in the first place.

So yeah I can believe a game next gen could look like Avatar, and yeah it may not render every leaf, use perfect raytracing, or have movie quality AA but it will look close enough that I won't care.

 

[Blackface]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3P7cu4ekuY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxMCzFCDod8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9wJZ4e37bI

This is the stuff Eve onlines new character creation system is doing. Do I think next-gen consoles will look like Avatar? Of course not. However I think they will look SIGNIFICANTLY better then this generation, and be a major step forward.

 

[Ronok]

Why are people brining up render time in an argument about what looks better? The render time is irrelevant. Until we can reproduce the images found in CG films at a frame rate acceptable for games, we can't claim to have surpassed them.

That said, artistically games have surpassed Toy Story. There are many that look nicer. Technically it's something that's impossible to reproduce as a game environment.

 

[SneakyStephan]

this is running on an xbox 360.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M04SMNkTx9E&feature

I think toy story has been surpassed in many ways, and yes, there's always going to be things that CG can do better. It's always going to be an unfair compairson, CG movies are static frames, games are interactive, that alone will always ensure that videogames will never be the same level as CG, that said I think we've definetly passed the equivelent of toystory for graphics in games.

That isn't even in the same universe as toy story lol

Not in polycounts, definitely not in IQ and resolution, not in lighting or shadow quality.

That's a tech demo too, just reinforces the point that current games are nowhere near toy story quality in graphics and IQ.

 

[Barkley's Justice]

 

[Mr_Brit]

That isn't even in the same universe as toy story lol

Not in polycounts, definitely not in IQ and resolution, not in lighting or shadow quality.

That's a tech demo too, just reinforces the point that current games are nowhere near toy story quality in graphics and IQ.

That doesn't matter when Cryengine 3 and Samaritan have overtaken Toy Story in terms of lighting and shadowing which proves that in some ways next gen console games will look better.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

So yeah I can believe a game next gen could look like Avatar, and yeah it may not render every leaf, use perfect raytracing, or have movie quality AA but it will look close enough that I won't care.

... in screenshots. Then as soon as you start walking around the scene and realise that there's no collision-detection on anything, so all the leaves clip through each other. And then you run into a character and initiate dialogue only to find that they have the emotional range of Kermit the frog. And then you move a step to the left and the illusion of depth created by the normal-map on the wall next to you is destroyed.

You guys are bananas.

That doesn't matter when Cryengine 3 and Samaritan have overtaken Toy Story in terms of lighting and shadowing which proves that in some ways next gen console games will look better.

You too. Bananas.

 

[StevieP]

That doesn't matter when Cryengine 3 and Samaritan have overtaken Toy Story in terms of lighting and shadowing which proves that in some ways next gen console games will look better.

Samaritan will not be possible on any console released within the next 3 years, and not in a game-environment in the next half decade.

 

[Emitan]

... in screenshots. Then as soon as you start walking around the scene and realise that there's no collision-detection on anything, so all the leaves clip through each other. And then you run into a character and initiate dialogue only to find that they have the emotional range of Kermit the frog. And then you move a step to the left and the illusion of depth created by the normal-map on the wall next to you is destroyed.

You guys are bananas.

Next gen video games: Look, don't touch.

 

[Mr_Brit]

... in screenshots. Then as soon as you start walking around the scene and realise that there's no collision-detection on anything, so all the leaves clip through each other. And then you run into a character and initiate dialogue only to find that they have the emotional range of Kermit the frog. And then you move a step to the left and the illusion of depth created by the normal-map on the wall next to you is destroyed.

You guys are bananas.



You too. Bananas.

Lol. In what way is the lighting or shadowing in Toy Story better than UE3 or CE3? Toy Story doesn't even have ambient occlusion.

 

[Frankfurt]

IQ and "perfect" lighting/shadows/water...is in reality just bells and whistles...people don't care if lighting is raytraced or prebaked, if reflections are perfectly accurate or if they just look close enough, or if textures are at high resolutions or "perfect" resolution, or if a model is millions of polygons or a normal map is applied.

The things you point out go mostly unnoticed by 99% of the gaming community and TBH don't really matter when you are trying to sell a game. A gamer could glance at a nextgen game and say "wow that looks like Avatar" they arent going to care when someone comes in and tries to tell them different by pointing out things they didnt notice in the first place.

So yeah I can believe a game next gen could look like Avatar, and yeah it may not render every leaf, use perfect raytracing, or have movie quality AA but it will look close enough that I won't care.

Exactly.

That's the difference between the average gamer and the master race. Some see the forest, others look at the ant on top of a leaf.

 

[SneakyStephan]

That doesn't matter when Cryengine 3 and Samaritan have overtaken Toy Story in terms of lighting and shadowing which proves that in some ways next gen console games will look better.

From what I can tell toy story seems to have the usual cgi indirect lighting (many bounces calculated).
If you think the still primitive lighting in crysis 2 compares, ok then.

Look at the screen caps, or go look at your own toy story copy if you have one, it's miles better.

Not enough bloom and lens flares to be next gen I guess..

 

[Mascot]

Okay guys forget AVATAR for a minuite! If Xbox next games end up looking like the dragon in this video, I will be more than happy with the graphics output!

Ah, good old Project Offset. I mourn your passing with great sadness.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Why are people brining up render time in an argument about what looks better? The render time is irrelevant. Until we can reproduce the images found in CG films at a frame rate acceptable for games, we can't claim to have surpassed them.

That said, artistically games have surpassed Toy Story. There are many that look nicer. Technically it's something that's impossible to reproduce as a game environment.

Games don't need to be able to render stuff like CG movies when they can fake it.
Some time i think some of you guy get hang up on the technically aspect of it all.
The average gamer don't care about how it's done only how it looks and games will never be able to compare to CG movies technically .

Next gen we should pass Toy story in looks while it might not be as technically most people won't care .
Perfect IQ really does help Toy story .

 

[SapientWolf]

Samaritan will not be possible on any console released within the next 3 years, and not in a game-environment in the next half decade.

I wouldn't count on that. It runs in realtime on 3 GTX 580s, right?

 

[StevieP]

From what I can tell toy story seems to have the usual cgi indirect lighting (many bounces calculated).
If you think the still primitive lighting in crysis 2 compares, ok then.

Look at the screen caps, or go look at your own toy story copy if you have one, it's miles better.

Not enough bloom and lens flares to be next gen I guess..

Anyone feel like photoshopping the Unreal Engine vaseline filter onto a Toy Story screenshot? LOL

I wouldn't count on that. It runs in realtime on 3 GTX 580s, right?

Yes, a SCRIPTED CUTSCENE that ran on 3 GTX 580s. Think about that for just a moment.

So what you are trying to say is that it will take close to a third of a decade for a console to be able to ship with dat juice?

And a whole lot of advancements in power consumption. (Or, alternatively, a LOT of downgrades to the source material)

 

[WrikaWrek]

Samaritan will not be possible on any console released within the next 3 years, and not in a game-environment in the next half decade.

So what you are trying to say is that it will take close to a third of a decade for a console to be able to ship with dat juice?

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Yes, a SCRIPTED CUTSCENE that ran on 3 GTX 580s. Think about that for just a moment.

GFX cards don't scale that great plus they said they could get it down to one if they try .
I don't think any console going to have anything as strong as a GTX580 but we should wait until we see some specs .

 

[KageMaru]

In some aspects we have exceeded it.

Maybe in scene complexity, and that would only be for very select scenes, and even then it probably wouldn't be hard to find equally complex scenes in Toy Story if we want to pick and choose. However lighting, shading, textures, motion, blur, animation, etc? Nope, we haven't reached that level yet this gen.

Edit:

Just saw your question about lighting in Toy Story. I have yet to see a game give me this in gameplay:

 

[UrbanRats]

Next gen video games: Look, don't touch.

Playable with a dvd player, Avatar quality.

 

[StevieP]

GFX cards don't scale that great plus they said they could get it down to one if they try .
I don't think any console going to have anything as strong as a GTX580 but we should wait until we see some specs .

Yes, they can get that scripted cutscene to run on 1 300w graphics card if they downgrade the resolution, texture quality, lighting quality, polygon counts, and a variety of other things. But a 300w graphics card still isn't going into a console unless you guys like $600 consoles that look like PC towers. And it's still a scripted cutscene in the end.

You guys ARE bananas.

 

[Ryoku]

So what you are trying to say is that it will take close to a third of a decade for a console to be able to ship with dat juice?

Probably more. People don't seem to realize the hardware that was involved in rendering that demo. The next gen systems will NOT be able to run something akin to that demo, I guarantee it. Unless, you know, if you think that consoles will come with hardware equivalent to three GTX580s, then sure.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Lol. In what way is the lighting or shadowing in Toy Story better than UE3 or CE3? Toy Story doesn't even have ambient occlusion.

Can you stop using terms like Ambient Occlusion as though you comprehend their significance? They didn't use AO because they were using a system which calculates bounce using subsurface light particle scattering. Something which gives better results in many circumstances and which is impossible to render in real-time.

 

[UltimaKilo]

Yup, I remember when N. Korea was going to be able to launch nukes with the PS2 also.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

I still think some of you guys going to be shock when next gen comes around .
We got games like GOW 3 , GT5 , UC2 , KZ3 out of really weak hardware compare to today stuff.
Just better AA going to help games allot once they don't gimp the ram .

 

[herzogzwei1989]

That pre-rendered version is from the Xbox unveiling event, and IIRC it was implied it represents what the console was capable of.

That's of course what Microsoft claimed, but Xbox would never be able to reproduce that 100% in real-time. Just not possible with the final hardware especially the NV2A.

 

[htcloverboy]

not too far away and both are realtime ingame.

 

[Mr_Brit]

Can you stop using terms like Ambient Occlusion as though you comprehend their significance? They didn't use AO because they were using a system which calculates bounce using subsurface light particle scattering. Something which gives better results in many circumstances and which is impossible to render in real-time.

Watch this in 1080p and tell me that you still think Toy Story lighting looks better/ is more realistic:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgS67BwPfFY

Just the individual rain particles being independently lit up in the night is ridiculously good looking enough.

Also, check out some of the CE3 cross generation demos and some of the CE editor pics made by modders.

 

[StevieP]

not too far away and both are realtime ingame.

They are both bullshots and one is even down-sampled.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

Can you stop using terms like Ambient Occlusion as though you comprehend their significance? They didn't use AO because they were using a system which calculates bounce using subsurface light particle scattering. Something which gives better results in many circumstances and which is impossible to render in real-time.

actually, it is important. In most renders today, you still have an ambient occlusion pass when rendering, regardless if you're using vray, mental ray, renderman etc.

They are both bullshots and one is even down-sampled.

so are the toy story pics, that's not what the movie looked like 16 years ago or w/e, because that's not the resolution they were using 16 years ago.

 

[Mr_Brit]

They are both bullshots and one is even down-sampled.

They're nowhere near Avatar at all never mind the fact that they're bullshots.

 

[htcloverboy]

They are both bullshots and one is even down-sampled.

i couldnt find a better picture of ratchet but Uncharted is nothing like a bullshot. It is the way it looks on my tv.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Wait what res was the Samaritan demo was it not render at something higher that 1080p ?

 

[Mr_Brit]

Wait what res was the Samaritan demo was it not render at something higher that 1080p ?

Most likely since Epic said that with optimisation and a resolution drop they could get the demo running on a single GTX 580.

 

[StevieP]

Most likely since Epic said that with optimisation and a resolution drop they could get the demo running on a single GTX 580.

Higher resolution? Yes, it was. But... optimization being this:

Yes, they can get that scripted cutscene to run on 1 300w graphics card if they downgrade the resolution, texture quality, lighting quality, polygon counts, and a variety of other things. But a 300w graphics card still isn't going into a console unless you guys like $600 consoles that look like PC towers. And it's still a scripted cutscene in the end.

Once you factor things like, you know, a game running along with it... well, pipe dreams people.

i couldnt find a better picture of ratchet but Uncharted is nothing like a bullshot. It is the way it looks on my tv.

They've both been through the photoshop ringer.

 

[SapientWolf]

Can you stop using terms like Ambient Occlusion as though you comprehend their significance? They didn't use AO because they were using a system which calculates bounce using subsurface light particle scattering. Something which gives better results in many circumstances and which is impossible to render in real-time.

It looks like they use raytracing to calculate AO in Cars. It was just too computationally expensive to do so in the 90s.

 

[TUROK]

The game looks far better than the target render.

Aesthetically pleasing is not the same thing as technical complexity. You may prefer the way Killzone 2 looks in comparison to the target render, but that doesn't mean they are technically close in any way. Killzone 2's characters clock in at about 15k polys each, while the gun in the target render is probably in the 500k poly range. That alone should tell you how far off Killzone 2 was from the target render.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

actually, it is important. In most renders today, you still have an ambient occlusion pass when rendering, regardless if you're using vray, mental ray, renderman etc.

That's true, I just wanted to make the point that the rendering techniques in TS are computationally infeasible to perform in real-time. Also, AO is an approximation. In games we see SSAO which is an approximation of AO. So in games we get an approximation of an approximation combined with lightmaps, whereas in CG there is a substantial amount more going on.

Mr_Brit: I give up. You're right dude, the next consoles will look as good as Avatar. Also, monkeys will fly out of my butthole but that's a topic for another thread.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

Next gen we will be lucky if games are 1080p , we might something like 1280x1080 or something else .
Still i can also see devs just staying at 720p .

 

[les papillons sexuels]

That isn't even in the same universe as toy story lol

Not in polycounts, definitely not in IQ and resolution, not in lighting or shadow quality.

That's a tech demo too, just reinforces the point that current games are nowhere near toy story quality in graphics and IQ.

It's also using 1 of three cores on the 360, is uncomplete technology, and is running "weak 6 year old hardware".

I could've used the forza 4 or gt5 photomode screenshots if I wanted to. It's still running in the game and is from the game engine. The fact is you're comparing a screenshot of something that took 8 hours to render to something that renders in 1/30th of a second. You're comparing a still and static image in a very limited enviroment to games that are full of content.

There are definetly bullshots for games that were done in engine that look on par or above toystory.