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[GymWolf]

So what? No opinion is non biased. Every person alive to play a game has some kind of bias.

It’s kind of a bullshit criticism to say “they are bias” like no duh. It’s impossible to come at a piece of media with no knowledge of any politics or previous media.

Nobody lives in a vacuum and certainly not people that reviews games for a living. Saying he is biased is an empty statement. There is no such thing as a bias free objective review.

That said he loved the first game to death gave it a 10/10 may include that in your estimation of “bias”. Like millions of other gamers he loved the first entry.

Dude i don't give 2 shits if angry fucking joe score the game a 1 or a 10 i was just stating that he was already negatively biased about the game and he clearly show because he can't even understand some simple story passages and he straight up lies about some things like abby having better weapons or abilities than ellie or the fact the she use molotov (not true), they are not giant things but when a reviewer can't even get his facts straight because he is too much angry at the game for me it's enough to not give much weight to his review.
He is not wrong on everything of course, sometimes he is right.


It was the same for days gone and the woke bitch at gamespot who made the review clearly biased with all those out of context tweets about stupid ingame jokes, straight white man protagonist and lack of black zombies, nobody defended her like people are defending joe and i bet that with such premises even you that predicate "everyone is biased" would be dubious about the quality of her review just based on her woke bias.

There are normal bias and exagerated bias, joe is clearly on the second spectrum for this game and like i said, it clearly shows to whoever is neutral about the game.

If you are familiar with my line of thinking you already know that for me both journalist and youtubers are trash and i don't give a fuck about their reviews anyway, also i don't care if people massacre tlou2, the game can go down to a 2.0 on metacritic for what i care.

Sorry for the terrible english, i was in a rush.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

I'm not moving goalpost. My point still stands, both of you cherry picked one point and somehow this "justifies" the whole story now?
DForce Again, watch the review. It's all in there, I agree 100% with Joel on this one. The gameplay is nice but the story is so badly written that makes you want to give up.

Predictable as hell, unlikeable characters, shitting on old ones for the sake of it. It's all in there.

E Explosive Zombie Good luck turning the whole story around on the concept of "why the James Bond villain uses a slow-moving laser to kill him".
I think even the "not so bright" in the world understand the concept of "to move the plot further and build suspense" and plot armor.

I was just saying that's the sort of type you feel like, there was more to my argument than that but you didn't really engage it. No matter how much we try to engage with you on the idea of characters, their motivations, their morals and anything beyond strict logical risk-reduction thinking you don't engage. Maybe I should have instead asked you if you're a fan of Hamlet? Do the characters behave in the most intelligent, logical, risk-averse way possible to benefit themselves? Is it a failure of Shakespeare, as a writer, that they don't do so?

 

[Faithless83]

I was just saying that's the sort of type you feel like, there was more to my argument than that but you didn't really engage it. No matter how much we try to engage with you on the idea of characters, their motivations, their morals and anything beyond strict logical risk-reduction thinking you don't engage. Maybe I should have instead asked you if you're a fan of Hamlet? Do the characters behave in the most intelligent, logical, risk-averse way possible to benefit themselves? Is it a failure of Shakespeare, as a writer, that they don't do so?

If it's a sequel that makes the characters seem to be going through a stroke the whole time, yes... it's a problem.
Bad decisions happen all the time to drive plot. Breaking Bad is "bad decisions the series", but they are dumb and inexperienced from the start. They don't contradict their behaviour.
People don't get dumber with age, they learn from their mistakes especially in the world TLOU is set in. Maybe, if TLOU2 was a standalone game and not a sequel, it would be more justifiable.

 

[Keihart]

If it's a sequel that makes the characters seem to be going through a stroke the whole time, yes... it's a problem.
Bad decisions happen all the time to drive plot. Breaking Bad is "bad decisions the series", but they are dumb and inexperienced from the start. They don't contradict their behaviour.
People don't get dumber with age, they learn from their mistakes especially in the world TLOU is set in. Maybe, if TLOU2 was a standalone game and not a sequel, it would be more justifiable.

If you think the characters in TLoU2 act out of character you know shit about narratives, the games goes to great lengths to develop how and why characters do and feel certain ways, it also tries it's best to show it during gameplay instead of isolating it into cutscenes, so obviously, if you checkout of it while playing or don't pay attentions your are going to come out thinking nothing makes sense.

As a sequel it's really good, it only works because it's a sequel. Without it being a sequel you wouldn't have all this already fleshed out characters that you are suppose to care about like Joel, you only care about him because you were in his shoes, if you see his actions without that perspective you would be rooting for Abby.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

If it's a sequel that makes the characters seem to be going through a stroke the whole time, yes... it's a problem.
Bad decisions happen all the time to drive plot. Breaking Bad is "bad decisions the series", but they are dumb and inexperienced from the start. They don't contradict their behaviour.
People don't get dumber with age, they learn from their mistakes especially in the world TLOU is set in. Maybe, if TLOU2 was a standalone game and not a sequel, it would be more justifiable.

Walter White was "dumb"??? TLOU was all about Joel learning from his mistakes, one of his mistakes was the persona he had that you're all so attached to of a ruthless survivalist who can't trust anyone. He let's Ellie in and becomes a better person for it. If Joel was still the man he was before Ellie in TLOU II then it was all for nothing. That said, and I hate that this bears repeating so often...

Spoiler

TOMMY told Abby who he and Joel were, TOMMY told Abby's group where they were stationed and to come get some supplies, Abby ALREADY KNEW who Tommy was prior to meeting them, as well. The situation they were in FORCED them to go to Abby's people, you can argue that's contrived but it's the foundation of the narrative, when writing a story you can have a narrative spring forth from coincidence but if you're a great writer the story doesn't rely on it from that point forward. Most stories spring from coincidence, without big coincidences most stories don't even exist, heck with enough context nearly all stories ever told become coincidental. Like the droids in Star Wars ending up on Tattooine.

 

[Faithless83]

Walter White was "dumb"??? TLOU was all about Joel learning from his mistakes, one of his mistakes was the persona he had that you're all so attached to of a ruthless survivalist who can't trust anyone. He let's Ellie in and becomes a better person for it. If Joel was still the man he was before Ellie in TLOU II then it was all for nothing. That said, and I hate that this bears repeating so often...

Spoiler

TOMMY told Abby who he and Joel were, TOMMY told Abby's group where they were stationed and to come get some supplies, Abby ALREADY KNEW who Tommy was prior to meeting them, as well. The situation they were in FORCED them to go to Abby's people, you can argue that's contrived but it's the foundation of the narrative, when writing a story you can have a narrative spring forth from coincidence but if you're a great writer the story doesn't rely on it from that point forward. Most stories spring from coincidence, without big coincidences most stories don't even exist, heck with enough context nearly all stories ever told become coincidental. Like the droids in Star Wars ending up on Tattooine.

Way to go quoting half of what I said and twisting it. The dumb part was obviously Jessie, but Walter was also unexperienced. Joel and Tommy lived long enough to know how few people they can trust. To the point it took YEARS for Joel to come forth with Tommy on what happened in the hospital, his own brother. But yeah. let's pretend it's good writing.

If you think the characters in TLoU2 act out of character you know shit about narratives, the games goes to great lengths to develop how and why characters do and feel certain ways, it also tries it's best to show it during gameplay instead of isolating it into cutscenes, so obviously, if you checkout of it while playing or don't pay attentions your are going to come out thinking nothing makes sense.

As a sequel it's really good, it only works because it's a sequel. Without it being a sequel you wouldn't have all this already fleshed out characters that you are suppose to care about like Joel, you only care about him because you were in his shoes, if you see his actions without that perspective you would be rooting for Abby.

I think if it's boiled down to "me knowing shit about narrative" we wouldn't have one thread after the other and several personalities criticizing the story.
Maybe everyone knows shit and you are right.

 

[Aion002]

As someone who likes the game: He is right.

The story is garbage and the characters are poorly made.


Still, I enjoy the game. The graphics are great, the gameplay is excellent and the "stages" are fun. The score is right on.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Way to go quoting half of what I said and twisting it. The dumb part was obviously Jessie, but Walter was also unexperienced. Joel and Tommy lived long enough to know how few people they can trust. To the point it took YEARS for Joel to come forth with Tommy on what happened in the hospital, his own brother. But yeah. let's pretend it's good writing.

I'm twisting your words because I didn't look into your mind and figure out what you secretly meant? Tommy wasn't someone who didn't trust people, he had a family, people supporting him at his compound, he was a Firefly. There's nothing in Tommy's character development/arc, what amount there is, that suggests he lives by a "do not trust" credo of any kind. Even Joel's is revealed to be more about not wanting to let someone into his heart because he doesn't want to deal with the pain it causes, it isn't about survival, in fact I'd argue Joel does the dangerous assignments he does because before Ellie he had a death wish. But this all requires understandings of the character, his arc and development that you so far seem to be lacking. Wait, telling Tommy was YEARS LATER? Where are you getting that from?

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

As someone who likes the game: He is right.

The story is garbage and the characters are poorly made.


Still, I enjoy the game. The graphics are great, the gameplay is excellent and the "stages" are fun. The score is right on.

Is the gameplay the same as the first (to you) Narberal?

 

[Krappadizzle]

Way to go quoting half of what I said and twisting it. The dumb part was obviously Jessie, but Walter was also unexperienced. Joel and Tommy lived long enough to know how few people they can trust. To the point it took YEARS for Joel to come forth with Tommy on what happened in the hospital, his own brother. But yeah. let's pretend it's good writing.


I think if it's boiled down to "me knowing shit about narrative" we wouldn't have one thread after the other and several personalities criticizing the story.
Maybe everyone knows shit and you are right.

You're waisting your time. The defense force won't see reason man. I went into extreme detail in another thread about how shitty a character Abby was and how they try and fail miserably to get you to empathize with her character even though she has no redeeming qualities. How the pacing of the story is awful and right as things get going *flashback* *character switch*. Or how the way the story is presented would have been better had they put some of those flashback sequences in order.

Met with, "you just don't understand the story, it's above your head, you misinterpret soooo much."

Don't waste the time. Not worth it. Let those that love it and think it's the pinacle of storytelling live in their safe space. At least you'll have an idea of the people here who don't know what they are talking about.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

You're waisting your time. The defense force won't see reason man. I went into extreme detail in another thread about how shitty a character Abby was and how they try and fail miserably to get you to empathize with her character even though she has no redeeming qualities. How the pacing of the story is awful and right as things get going *flashback* *character switch*. Or how the way the story is presented would have been better had they put some of those flashback sequences in order.

Met with, "you just don't understand the story, it's above your head, you misinterpret soooo much."

Don't waste the time. Not worth it. Let those that love it and think it's the pinacle of storytelling live in their safe space. At least you'll have an idea of the people here who don't know what they are talking about.

"Don't waste your time, I gave my opinion elsewhere and not everyone conformed to it and agreed with me, even though I was allegedly exhaustive in whatever post I'm talking about."

 

[Keihart]

Way to go quoting half of what I said and twisting it. The dumb part was obviously Jessie, but Walter was also unexperienced. Joel and Tommy lived long enough to know how few people they can trust. To the point it took YEARS for Joel to come forth with Tommy on what happened in the hospital, his own brother. But yeah. let's pretend it's good writing.


I think if it's boiled down to "me knowing shit about narrative" we wouldn't have one thread after the other and several personalities criticizing the story.
Maybe everyone knows shit and you are right.

What an argument, you really made your point.
How about we retcon the shitting of MGS2 on launch or Death Strading a couple of months ago just to have a complete turnaround once that people more level headed started to review the content.

Upset people are the loudest not the most insightful necessarily.

You're waisting your time. The defense force won't see reason man. I went into extreme detail in another thread about how shitty a character Abby was and how they try and fail miserably to get you to empathize with her character even though she has no redeeming qualities. How the pacing of the story is awful and right as things get going *flashback* *character switch*. Or how the way the story is presented would have been better had they put some of those flashback sequences in order.

Met with, "you just don't understand the story, it's above your head, you misinterpret soooo much."

Don't waste the time. Not worth it. Let those that love it and think it's the pinacle of storytelling live in their safe space. At least you'll have an idea of the people here who don't know what they are talking about.

This it's intentional, the blue balling it's made completely intentional, you even get ammo before finding Owen to make you think you'll fight and nope, blue balling.
The game puts brakes in your virtual revenge constantly to make a point across. Of course you can be dense and think it's a fluke and just bad pacing. But the evidence it's there.

 

[Karak]

Interestingly enough every video/review I have read or watched I sort of got their points. Some worse, some better than others. But the subject matter involved for sure has caused that extra focus. I wish it was applied ALL the time but it can't be, we just don't work that way and sadly without, many times, without negativity.

 

[Faithless83]

What an argument, you really made your point.
How about we retcon the shitting of MGS2 on launch or Death Strading a couple of months ago just to have a complete turnaround once that people more level headed started to review the content.

Upset people are the loudest not the most insightful necessarily.

Comparing this to Kojima's work. Yeah, as years go by this will age like wine and be considered the pinnacle of storytelling.

I would love a thread a year from now titled "Is TLOU2 any better now?"
And I would dig it year after year to see the reactions.

I'm done arguing. Happy gaming folks.

 

[Krappadizzle]

"Don't waste your time, I gave my opinion elsewhere and not everyone conformed to it and agreed with me, even though I was allegedly exhaustive in whatever post I'm talking about."

Just like most things in life, people with the shittiest opinions usually screech the loudest and call everyone else misinformed and ignorant. The defense force for this game is no different.

Another solid example of the defense force was, "if you don't like this game it's because you are homophobic."

And what's funny, I'd give the game a solid 7.75 or so, I liked the game, but just because I enjoyed aspects of it doesn't mean I'll ignore flaws because my feefee's are hurt that it's not perfect.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Just like most things in life, people with the shittiest opinions usually screech the loudest and call everyone else misinformed and ignorant. The defense force for this game is no different.

Another solid example of the defense force was, "if you don't like this game it's because you are homophobic."

And what's funny, I'd give the game a solid 7.75 or so, I liked the game, but just because I enjoyed aspects of it doesn't mean I'll ignore flaws because my feefee's are hurt that it's not perfect.

That's called Console War Conformity.

No other form of entertainment (music, movies, sports, TV shows etc...) do people have a boner or defence force for the things they like.

As people suggest, got to do with justifying mom and dad buying them a console at Christmas because they sure aren't buying another one. So they better learn to love it until a new console comes out in 6 years.

The homophobe reason was a total SJW cop out. It had nothing to do with the game as a whole except people having fun making memes.

You got other games with gay characters and Ellie was outed as gay in the DLC, yet they get great critic and user reviews. Nobody cared.

The best forum discussions went like this months ago during the leaks:

Gamer: "This game's story sucks"

Defender: "You're a homophobe for saying that"

Game: "No. I say it sucks because Joel gets whack and I don't to play as this new character"

Defender: "Uhhhhhhh..... Duhhhhhhh. Bye"

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Just like most things in life, people with the shittiest opinions usually screech the loudest and call everyone else misinformed and ignorant. The defense force for this game is no different.

Another solid example of the defense force was, "if you don't like this game it's because you are homophobic."

And what's funny, I'd give the game a solid 7.75 or so, I liked the game, but just because I enjoyed aspects of it doesn't mean I'll ignore flaws because my feefee's are hurt that it's not perfect.

What in this post is a response to me or my positions? Also 7.75? How many points are on your scale and how often do you use all of them? Like it definitely wasn't 7.80 or 7.50 for you, 7.75 for sure?

 

[SleepDoctor]

That's called Console War Conformity.

No other form of entertainment (music, movies, sports, TV shows etc...) do people have a boner or defence force for the things they like.

As people suggest, got to do with justifying mom and dad buying them a console at Christmas because they sure aren't buying another one. So they better learn to love it until a new console comes out in 6 years.

The homophobe reason was a total SJW cop out. It had nothing to do with the game as a whole except people having fun making memes.

You got other games with gay characters and Ellie was outed as gay in the DLC, yet they get great critic and user reviews. Nobody cared.

The best forum discussions went like this months ago during the leaks:

Gamer: "This game's story sucks"

Defender: "You're a homophobe for saying that"

Game: "No. I say it sucks because Joel gets whack and I don't to play as this new character"

Defender: "Uhhhhhhh..... Duhhhhhhh. Bye"

I agree with everything..... except sports lol. Have you not seen the facepunching contests at football games?

Console warriors are harmless tho. Only thing they're punching are keyboards.

The fact that we're almost 400 posts into a review thread just cuz some people can't accept everyone doesn't have the same taste is sad.

Im sure they were celebrating when Joe gave tlou a 10/10 tho. But now he's "bratty" , homophobic, and whatever else I've missed. Maybe he's apart of the big bad xbox discord and the illuminati too.

 

[SleepDoctor]

That's called Console War Conformity.

No other form of entertainment (music, movies, sports, TV shows etc...) do people have a boner or defence force for the things they like.

As people suggest, got to do with justifying mom and dad buying them a console at Christmas because they sure aren't buying another one. So they better learn to love it until a new console comes out in 6 years.

The homophobe reason was a total SJW cop out. It had nothing to do with the game as a whole except people having fun making memes.

You got other games with gay characters and Ellie was outed as gay in the DLC, yet they get great critic and user reviews. Nobody cared.

The best forum discussions went like this months ago during the leaks:

Gamer: "This game's story sucks"

Defender: "You're a homophobe for saying that"

Game: "No. I say it sucks because Joel gets whack and I don't to play as this new character"

Defender: "Uhhhhhhh..... Duhhhhhhh. Bye"

I'd edit out the spoiler if i were you

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I agree with everything..... except sports lol. Have you not seen the facepunching contests at football games?

Console warriors are harmless tho. Only thing they're punching are keyboards.

The fact that we're almost 400 posts into a review thread just cuz some people can't accept everyone doesn't have the same taste is sad.

Im sure they were celebrating when Joe gave tlou a 10/10 tho. But now he's "bratty" , homophobic, and whatever else I've missed. Maybe he's apart of the big bad xbox discord and the illuminati too.

I have never seen a live fight at a sports event. And I always sit in the cheap seats if it's my own money (or I go when I get good company seats) where the drunks should be. Nada.

Even when I've been to Buffalo Bills games sitting in shitty seats..... where's the drunk fights? Where's all the blue collar winos yelling?

Disappointing!

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I'd edit out the spoiler if i were you

Thread title says spoilers. If a mod wants to delete my post, no problem with that.

 

[SleepDoctor]

I have never seen a live fight at a sports event. And I always sit in the cheap seats if it's my own money (or I go when I get good company seats) where the drunks should be. Nada.

Even when I've been to Buffalo Bills games sitting in shitty seats..... where's the drunk fights? Where's all the blue collar winos yelling?

Disappointing!

Im not even a fan but my friend's always get season tickets and invite me. And ive had them happen a row in front of me, while going to the concession stands, and even walking out we kinda got into one due to a stupid jets fan lol.

 

[Terenty]

You talk like the first game was not the most useless journey ever...

You know after 30 min from the beginning of the game that joel is gonna love ellie as a substitite daughter so all of their angry banthers are hilarious at best because YOU ALREADY KNOW that he is not gonna leave her and that by the end of the game he is gonna see her as a substitute daughter, the stakes during angry discussions in that game are lower than low if you have any experience with this type of stories.

And the trip to get the cure? Totally useless because you know thet joel is not gonna sacrifice her.

And even the supposedly poignant finale? Joel find documents where it's clear that fireflies don't know what they are doing and the chance of getting a cure is smaller than abby's breast (they try to retcon this in the sequel but it doesn't work for people with good memory), but joel is an idiot and he doesn't even explain this to ellie just to create artificial tension...let's see if ellie is so eager to sacrifice herself after reading some fireflies documents about the chances of getting a cure...

So what exactly is more significant in the first game compared to the second one? A useless trip to get a cure? The useless banther with zero stakes because you know that joel is never gonna leave her?

Both games are pretty meaningless journeys and people act like the first one had this incredible story and meaningfull journey, when there is none of that.

What is the meaning of the first game?

The cure? No
The most predictable bonding ever between a girl without family and a guy who lost his daughter forced to stay together during a journey? No if you haven't lived in a cave in the last 20 years.
The finale where ellie is mad that joel take it from her the 1% chance of creating a cure?? Lol

At least in the sequel you save an innocent child (lev) from a very bleak future, it's already more than what you accomplish in the first one.

Pretty spot on. The first part was cliche as fuck, the second one is cliche as fuck. Druckmann is a shitty B movie Hollywood reject. We can close the thread now

 

[Archvile82]

I enjoyed the 14 odd hours I played but had no interesting in playing another 10h with Abby. If they structured the game differently then things may have been different for me. Story was pretty average up to that point anyway, many roll eyes moments from dialogue to cut scenes, felt similar to an walking dead episode. However I really liked the exploration and combat. Favourite part was the flashback scenes with Joel, they were well done.

 

[DForce]

I'm not moving goalpost. My point still stands, both of you cherry picked one point and somehow this "justifies" the whole story now?
DForce Again, watch the review. It's all in there, I agree 100% with Joel on this one. The gameplay is nice but the story is so badly written that makes you want to give up.

Predictable as hell, unlikeable characters, shitting on old ones for the sake of it. It's all in there.

E Explosive Zombie Good luck turning the whole story around on the concept of "why the James Bond villain uses a slow-moving laser to kill him".
I think even the "not so bright" in the world understand the concept of "to move the plot further and build suspense" and plot armor.

It's like you haven't played the game and all you have to say is "watch it again" because you're unable to put forth a legitimate argument that doesn't fed to you by someone else.

 

[DForce]

That's called Console War Conformity.

No other form of entertainment (music, movies, sports, TV shows etc...) do people have a boner or defence force for the things they like.

As people suggest, got to do with justifying mom and dad buying them a console at Christmas because they sure aren't buying another one. So they better learn to love it until a new console comes out in 6 years.

The homophobe reason was a total SJW cop out. It had nothing to do with the game as a whole except people having fun making memes.

You got other games with gay characters and Ellie was outed as gay in the DLC, yet they get great critic and user reviews. Nobody cared.

The best forum discussions went like this months ago during the leaks:

Gamer: "This game's story sucks"

Defender: "You're a homophobe for saying that"

Game: "No. I say it sucks because Joel gets whack and I don't to play as this new character"

Defender: "Uhhhhhhh..... Duhhhhhhh. Bye"

Just like most things in life, people with the shittiest opinions usually screech the loudest and call everyone else misinformed and ignorant. The defense force for this game is no different.

Another solid example of the defense force was, "if you don't like this game it's because you are homophobic."

And what's funny, I'd give the game a solid 7.75 or so, I liked the game, but just because I enjoyed aspects of it doesn't mean I'll ignore flaws because my feefee's are hurt that it's not perfect.

Sounds similar to the people who give this game 8 or above are accused of being shills and paid reviewers. People quickly jumped on the negative reviews because it fit their narrative.

You even have Skill Up coming out and saying people aren't paid for reviews.

Just look at the people who gave this game a good review and look at all the downvotes.

People can dislike, but I will have an opinion on their take if I think it's dumb.


I watched a streamer who gave this game a 6/7 out of 10 and he said the game sucks... No because of the story, but because the game was at 30fps and the controls were wobbly (the game has built in sway). I disagreed with his take on some things, but if he hates playing at 30fps and with sway, then that's understandable.

If you guys have no problem with accusing people of being paid off to give this game a good review, then you shouldn't have a problem with people disagreeing with how Joe reviewed the game.

 

[Faithless83]

It's like you haven't played the game and all you have to say is "watch it again" because you're unable to put forth a legitimate argument that doesn't fed to you by someone else.

There you go, look at the date.

What's the point of TLOU2? (SPOILERS INSIDE)

This will be a long read, please bear with me. I'm posting this as a fan of the original game. After seeing the reactions on streams I was wondering: "why would you go such a length to piss off your audience like that?" By the end of the original TLOU the writer let the audience judge if Joel...

www.neogaf.com

I just don't want to transcribe it again and again, since there is a video that alligns with what I think. In my thread I go on what I believe is the reason why the story turned out the way it did.
Enjoy the reading!

 

[DForce]

There you go, look at the date.

What's the point of TLOU2? (SPOILERS INSIDE)

This will be a long read, please bear with me. I'm posting this as a fan of the original game. After seeing the reactions on streams I was wondering: "why would you go such a length to piss off your audience like that?" By the end of the original TLOU the writer let the audience judge if Joel...

www.neogaf.com

I just don't want to transcribe it again and again, since there is a video that alligns with what I think. In my thread I go on what I believe is the reason why the story turned out the way it did.
Enjoy the reading!

After seeing the reactions on streams I was wondering: "why would you go such a length to piss off your audience like that?"

By the end of the original TLOU the writer let the audience judge if Joel was right or wrong. The problem is, there was only one right answer. Even though there was no garantee that it would've actually work, that a vaccine could have been made; the right answer was: "Joel is the bad guy that doomed the entire human race."

The revenge is actually on you, the game was to make you suffer for not choosing the right answer, for not agreeing with the writer.

The guilt trip starts early, with Joel confessing to Tommy what happened. Since Tommy sides with Joel, he is a bad guy too. The game goes on with "Tommy was a torturer, him and Joel did a lot of nasty stuff". Up until the end, it tries to paint Tommy as a bully, pushing Ellie to lose Dina.

These are just bad takes in my opinion.


This also looks like someone just repeated what others have said. The first game as already answered for us. The reason why we debated was because Ellie question Joel and wanted him to tell the truth. We knew Ellie wouldn't have agreed with Joel's decision if she found out the truth. That's what made the ending of the first game great.

This still carries over on to the next game.

Ellie's feelings haven't changed, she just found out the truth years later.

Joel is not portrayed as the "bad guy", which is one of the main points of the TLOU part II. Now Joel did make a selfish decision by saving Ellie, killing people in his path to save Ellie's life, but the reason why he is not portrayed as the bad guy is because he is making a decision that a father would make.

This decision didn't come without consequences. If you look at both sides, you can't really argue that Joel's decision wasn't at least selfish. He killed people, including Marlene to hide the truth from Ellie.

 

[Faithless83]

He killed people, including Marlene to hide the truth from Ellie.

Let me refresh your memory on this part:


Sorry. I won't take the time to answer your thread in full. My opinions are my own, please don't mix me with the "opinion parrots". Reviews are a guideline IMHO, that's it.
I do enjoy games that I know are not great and it goes the other way around as well.

I took the time to reply so far as a fan that was spit in the face by the writer.

Anyway, my opinion is in there, I replied to a lot of people in the thread, it was a fairly civil discussion. Back then, people were at each other's throats in other threads.
I also share Joe's opinion on the story and gameplay. Too bad he didn't mentioned pacing, but IMHO it was all over, even so for those close to me that actually liked the game.
Yeah, I have close friends that liked the game and are still my friends.
You think it's great? Fine by me. I'm past the point of arguing and to be quite honest, so should everyone else by this point.

I do hope developers will now understand the importance of a good writer. Maybe Elden Ring will pave the way for some writers to join gaming.

Like the Battlefront 2 debate or the Star Wars trilogy, both issues provided a silver lining.
I really doubt publishers would rethink their MTX if it wasn't for the backlash. Same on the existence of Mandalorian, which was clearly an apology to the diehard Star Wars fans.

 

[DForce]

Let me refresh your memory on this part:

I know the ending very well.

Why did he kill her? Because he thought she was going to come after Ellie.

Was Ellie being kidnapped?

No, she wasn't. He killed her because he thought Marlene would try to take Ellie away from him, thus finding out the truth.

 

[Faithless83]

I know the ending very well.

Why did he kill her? Because he thought she was going to come after Ellie.

Was Ellie being kidnapped?

No, she wasn't. He killed her because he thought Marlene would try to take Ellie away from him, thus finding out the truth.

Sorry man, our lines of thought are very different.
Have a happy life.

 

[hemo memo]

Spot on from Joe.

 

[Lunk]

I think the story is super flawed but I don't care for Joel having read the leaks and playing the game already deciding that he doesn't like what's coming, and just wants to confirm if it's as bad as what he read. I think if you didn't already read how Joel died you would be way more "in" the scene, as contrived as it is or as annoying as Abby is as a character.

Ultimately the game does not succeed at justifying Abby's POV for half the game and going on a mirror of TLOU1's plot with Lev after not just killing Joel, but HOW she did it, and how little she or her friends dwell on it. That part was handled horrendously. But I feel Joel is hung up on the premise too much and not fully analyzing the bits and pieces of the story that makes it not hit what it was trying to hit. He has a point in demonstrating how Druckmann was probably at a loss for what to actually do with a sequel, at some point, and that Abby is such an insert and that so many structural things in the game was unncessary, but I still feel as a piece of communication in a game with so much heated debate he's doing himself no favors looking unhygienic as he does, screaming about the game, showing very poorly edited clips and a lazy falling back to the live-stream footage with all their pre-emptive and also baby-ish reactions to certain things.

I really did love AJ's content some years ago. His Destiny 1 review is both hilarious and on-point and the same goes for Mass Effect 3, or his positive reviews like TLOU1 or Breath of the Wild... but this one, eh, not doing him or us any favors imo. An unconscientous piece.

And I know it's corona-time but man, Joe... you gotta work out, man. He used to look way more self-respecting than he has for the last year or two.

 

[Rei dos Vermes]

He makes lots of good points.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

I’m listening to Joe’s follow up. Very ironic that they are far more concerned for the pregnant lady than the writer of this game, who has her on combat patrol for some reason.

It’s so funny how people say Joe’s a misogynist bc he disagreed w Druckmann sending a pregnant lady out into combat. Just funny that a man can write a story where pregnant women get killed and he is the hero should be praised for writing it and you are a misogynist if you don’t like story about a pregnant woman doing pointless combat patrols and getting killed. Lol the man who constructed this whole sick scenario is off limits and if you don’t like his killing of pregnant women then you hate women. Does this make any sense? Hah

At one point they showed a clip where she was talking about wanting to get a drink and said well she has this baby and Joe was like “You stupid bitch why not drink if you are taking your baby on combat patrols? You are already living dangerously!” From the sound of things there is a large enough camp and no reason she in particular should be doing these patrols. Yet the writer made her do that so that it would provoke a feeling of darkness or whatever. You killed a pregnant lady he invented don’t you feel bad?

One would imagine in a future where humankind is dying off that babies would be incredibly precious and groups would protect them but I guess not? Ok great world you set up

So a character does something very dumb in order to provoke a reaction. Sounds like the whole game is like that tbh

 

[#Phonepunk#]

One thing to keep in mind. As Joe says here they “do a lot to sell a bunch of PS4s”. Joe and other Youtubers aren’t just fans they actively generate promotion and sales for these multi million dollar companies. In hyping games they sell games in selling games they sell consoles as well as other merch. They generate massive revenue through their tv-sized audiences. So it’s kind of shitty to find that Naughty Dog and Sony are behind the copyright strikes. That they would silence people who are actually doing work FOR THEM and making them money.

It’s kind of creepy, and it sucks that so many fanboys and brand warriors are bought into the corporate side of things. These are giant companies that use legal pressure to control the internet more and more as time goes on. We should CELEBRATE differences of opinions. The idea that companies can eliminate those is a scary thought that may lead to a slippery slope imo.

 

[DForce]

I’m listening to Joe’s follow up. Very ironic that they are far more concerned for the pregnant lady than the writer of this game, who has her on combat patrol for some reason.

It’s so funny how people say Joe’s a misogynist bc he disagreed w Druckmann sending a pregnant lady out into combat. Just funny that a man can write a story where pregnant women get killed and he is the hero should be praised for writing it and you are a misogynist if you don’t like story about a pregnant woman doing pointless combat patrols and getting killed. Lol the man who constructed this whole sick scenario is off limits and if you don’t like his killing of pregnant women then you hate women. Does this make any sense? Hah

At one point they showed a clip where she was talking about wanting to get a drink and said well she has this baby and Joe was like “You stupid bitch why not drink if you are taking your baby on combat patrols? You are already living dangerously!” From the sound of things there is a large enough camp and no reason she in particular should be doing these patrols. Yet the writer made her do that so that it would provoke a feeling of darkness or whatever. You killed a pregnant lady he invented don’t you feel bad?

One would imagine in a future where humankind is dying off that babies would be incredibly precious and groups would protect them but I guess not? Ok great world you set up

So a character does something very dumb in order to provoke a reaction. Sounds like the whole game is like that tbh

It's just more evidence that people aren't paying attention tot he story.

Abby: They actually cleared you for active duty?
Mel: Barely.
Abby: You can probably get a stay if you ask
Mel: I'd rather not sit around if I don't have to.
Abby: And Owen is okay with this?
Mel: Why would it be up to Owen?

What happens before and after that scene?

Manny: That was a lot of blood, right
Abby: She shouldn't be out.
Manny: She'll be okay.

If this was bad writing, then they wouldn't have other characters acknowledge Mel's dumb decision. Bad writing would totally ignore it.

This is why i'm saying, "Joe, did you even pay attention?"

 

[Paracelsus]

The only laughable part about Mel is that she's going around in casual clothing 99% of the game and then the one scene where * happens she's dressed like the Michelin Man, like that's not done to trick Ellie.

 

[DragoonKain]

Finished the game today and I agree with him on pretty much everything.

One thing that he didn't add that I also took issue with was the amount of parts where you ground or ledges break and you fall. It happens so many times. And every time you wake up infected. It becomes incredibly predictable that I was just expecting it to happen every time someone jumped or scaled down a ledge.

 

[scydrex]

It's just more evidence that people aren't paying attention tot he story.

Abby: They actually cleared you for active duty?
Mel: Barely.
Abby: You can probably get a stay if you ask
Mel: I'd rather not sit around if I don't have to.
Abby: And Owen is okay with this?
Mel: Why would it be up to Owen?

What happens before and after that scene?

Manny: That was a lot of blood, right
Abby: She shouldn't be out.
Manny: She'll be okay.

If this was bad writing, then they wouldn't have other characters acknowledge Mel's dumb decision. Bad writing would totally ignore it.

This is why i'm saying, "Joe, did you even pay attention?"

I think he pointed out this part because in a apocalyptic world or dangerous world being out while pregnant is not ok... even if they explain it... why is she out in a dangerous world? To me that is stupid.

 

[DForce]

I think he pointed out this part because in a apocalyptic world or dangerous world being out while pregnant is not ok... even if they explain it... why is she out in a dangerous world? To me that is stupid.

He pointed out because he considers it bad writing. He has to understand that characters aren't meant to be perfect. It doesn't matter if it's a dangerous world or not, they wanted Mel to go against all logic and it was pointed out by another character. he wound on her back showed she made a dumb decision that could've been deadly.

He did this several times in his review discussion and it just goes to show you he wasn't paying attention tot he story or the dialog.

 

[Nico_D]

Haven't played this particular game but when it comes to writing in games like this, where the main character has a huge personal motivation, it has always bothered how they have all the time in the world to collect feathers, baseball cards, go collect flowers from a nearby field for a side quest and so on. It goes against the story and somewhat break the narrative and characterization.

I would call that bad writing too. Breaking the tempo and making a character do things no real person in that situation would do.

 

[bargeparty]

I think he pointed out this part because in a apocalyptic world or dangerous world being out while pregnant is not ok... even if they explain it... why is she out in a dangerous world? To me that is stupid.

People constantly do stupid things in real life.

Bad writing is one thing (which I don't believe this game really has), but we need to stop expecting stories to be perfect and characters to be flawless. They have to be written. This stuff doesn't just pop into existence.

If Mel is written to be a character that makes poor decisions and ends up dead as a result, so be it.

 

[bargeparty]

Haven't played this particular game but when it comes to writing in games like this, where the main character has a huge personal motivation, it has always bothered how they have all the time in the world to collect feathers, baseball cards, go collect flowers from a nearby field for a side quest and so on. It goes against the story and somewhat break the narrative and characterization.

I would call that bad writing too. Breaking the tempo and making a character do things no real person in that situation would do.

Games gotta game. TLOU has its roots in survival so you need to scavenge for supplies.

You don't have to actually do any of that, but you would be unprepared for combat.

No one is making you search every corner for collectibles you know.

 

[Breakfast at Noon]

I get that, but his reaction was way over the top, i know it's his shtik but he looks like a childish moron tbh.

I know that's just bad acting that's all. reminded me of my experience with Lust From Beyond...

 

[Geki-D]

Haven't played this particular game but when it comes to writing in games like this, where the main character has a huge personal motivation, it has always bothered how they have all the time in the world to collect feathers, baseball cards, go collect flowers from a nearby field for a side quest and so on. It goes against the story and somewhat break the narrative and characterization.

I would call that bad writing too. Breaking the tempo and making a character do things no real person in that situation would do.

By this standard it's pretty much impossible for anything other than a Telltale/David Cage type game (and even then, point & click puzzle moments might still fall under what you're complaining about) to have good writing because you instantly consider anything "gamey" as bad writing.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

No other form of entertainment (music, movies, sports, TV shows etc...) do people have a boner or defence force for the things they like.

That is so untrue.

 

[Clear]

That is so untrue.

Also the second someone wheels out the term "defence force" you can safely ignore their input. Noone interested in good faith discussion is going to use such a disingenuous turn of phrase to globally handwave off everyone offering a counterargument to criticism.

 

[Valentino]

Can I just get a few people who thought the story was tripe to give me a selection of games they think does story and characters to a T .
That's not a challenge, I'm genuinley interested, because no one ever ever gives examples. Character decisions have been dissected to the point where there are proven hints and also clear reasons why said character does said thing. You could keep diving deep in to "a normal person wouldn't do this. This character would know better"..................but then what fucking plot would we have? These characters aren't you. The story does enough to give reason and move things along.

 

[ricardo_sousa11]

It's just more evidence that people aren't paying attention tot he story.

Abby: They actually cleared you for active duty?
Mel: Barely.
Abby: You can probably get a stay if you ask
Mel: I'd rather not sit around if I don't have to.
Abby: And Owen is okay with this?
Mel: Why would it be up to Owen?

What happens before and after that scene?

Manny: That was a lot of blood, right
Abby: She shouldn't be out.
Manny: She'll be okay.

If this was bad writing, then they wouldn't have other characters acknowledge Mel's dumb decision. Bad writing would totally ignore it.

This is why i'm saying, "Joe, did you even pay attention?"

Just because its explained in a few lines doesnt make it good, that is exacly a perfect example of terrible writting.

The world is turned to shit, there are flesh eating monsters, rapists, a serial killer on the loose (Ellie), and you let an 7-8month pregnant woman go out to the frontlines of battle? Specially with the person that the serial killer is after? With no backup?