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[antonz]

Also known as bigotry.

People like you are exactly why topics like this shouldnt even be allowed on here. People ask for honest viewpoints and because it doesnt jive with how you want it to be they are bigots.

This thread is nothing but a giant minefield for people to get banned because their opinion was asked

 

[Garbaga]

Also known as bigotry.

No, their are plenty of other examples beyond gender/race; plastic surgery, personality traits, you name it. Our sexual preferences aren't black and white.

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

A long term relationship and or intimacy, yes.

I do not want to be with someone who was at one point in their life a male sex. I'm happy they are able to achieve peace with themselves and live a good happy life, but with all due respect, for me it would just an issue I would not be able to get past.

 

[Doctor West]

Yes, especially if you plan on having a relationship with that person. Now there is no need to blurt it out as soon as possible, but if you want a healthy relationship you should tell the person sooner than later. If the guy freaks out, then he's not worth your time. However if he's fine with it, then it would make the relationship that much stronger.

I do understand how it can get really tricky and uncomfortable with the "reveal" because it makes it seem like you are hiding something or pretending to be something else, which is not true. There is nothing shameful about becoming the sex that you were meant to be. On the other hand, I know that I would want to know. It changes things about the future in regards to kids and that's important to me.

 

[Inflammable Slinky]

People like you are exactly why topics like this shouldnt even be allowed on here. People ask for honest viewpoints and because it doesnt jive with how you want it to be they are bigots.

This thread is nothing but a giant minefield for people to get banned because their opinion was asked

People like me, huh? Well, I, for one, hope that people are afraid to express views like Garbaga's because those views involve prejudice against trans folk and such views are frankly disgusting. If people are too shitty to not be prejudiced because it's disgusting, then at least they'll shut up out of shame.

 

[Amibguous Cad]

How is it a tough situation? You tell them ASAP and say, hey I used to be a dude. How is that difficult? I don't want to fuck a dude, regardless of whether he had his balls chopped off or not.

How many people do you think would have a violent reaction to it? FFS, have some compassion.

This one is really hard. It kind of reminds me of a guy I dated a few months back. When I first saw his pictures, I read him as Latino. A few dates in, he said he was actually a fair-skinned African American, but wasn't surprised at my initial reaction; he gets read as Latino a lot. I didn't give two fucks about his "actual" race, but I guess I can imagine some people who would. So when is it his duty to reveal his "real" race as opposed to the one everyone identifies him as?

So there's the rub- I'd really like to discourage people from treating people of different races differently, as we would like to discourage people from treating trans individuals and cis individuals differently. This goes doubly when there isn't really a legitimate reason for the lack of desire- when it's an intellectual "oh my god I slept with a trans person/black person I was totally attracted to before, but now my prejudice is making me deny it." But I'd also like to respect sexual diversity and not impose a straitjacket on other people's desires- what works for you, works for you, and there's not a lot that's going to change that. We'd also like to encourage full disclosure and informed consent before sexual activities. Critical to this self-determining sex-positive viewpoint is an agnosticism about turn-ons and hangups- your kink is not my kink and that's okay, what squicks you out is fine by me, and that's okay. Any other sort of interrogation feels like I'm improperly prying into someone else's sexuality. I certainly have my own kinks and hang-ups that others might not understand or view as irrational, and I'd like those to be respected.

So the long and short of it is, it's a really difficult question, and I don't know where I come down on it.

 

[Derwind]

Also known as bigotry.

 

[Onemic]

Also known as bigotry.

someone had to say it.

 

[Garbaga]

People like me, huh? Well, I, for one, hope that people are afraid to express views like Garbaga's because those views involve prejudice against trans folk and such views are frankly disgusting. If people are too shitty to not be prejudiced because it's disgusting, then at least they'll shut up out of shame.

It's all fine and dandy for our sexual preferences to not be based upon logic, they aren't, but let's not take this discussion towards that direction too; I am not a prejudiced bigot with disgusting views and I'd prefer if you didn't refer to me as such. Thank you.

 

[Opiate]

Seriously? If you had sex with a beautiful woman and then down the line it came out her Assigned Gender at Birth was different from her current gender you would suddenly lose attraction to her?

If we assume that this woman is physically indistinguishable from a woman who was born with a vagina (which is not something I believe we've achieved, but correct me if I'm wrong), then I would still be very concerned that she would be unable to conceive. That is something that I would want to know early as well, as I don't enjoy casual sex, and that's important information in a long term relationship.

Also the bolded is dangerously close to biological essentialism. Why is her genitalia decades ago so freaking important?

The answer to this question is the same:

1) I am assuming that realistically, a transgender woman's vagina is not physically identical to the vagina of a woman born with one. I freely admit I may be wrong about this: I haven't considered this at any length before. I'm assuming some people would not be bothered by this, and that's absolutely fine; I believe I would, based on my initial instinct. But I don't know that for sure, as it's a fairly intensely emotional situation that's difficult to imagine accurately without actually being there.

2) Because a transgendered woman cannot have children. I would still date a woman who cannot have children, but it's a significant concern I'd want to know before things got particularly serious, regardless of the reason.

 

[Vermillion]

As I said earlier, our sexual prefences aren't founded upon logic; yes, someone previously considered attractive could be rendered completely unattractive based on one simple turn-off.

Agreed.

 

[wenis]

Since I know it'll be done anyhow...


wenis
Member
(Today, 09:31 PM)

if their surprise in on their elbow

that one would be new.

 

[Uchip]

probably best to tell them early

 

[Glorified G]

If you were attracted to a woman who turned out to be trans, then wouldn't that mean you were attracted to a trans-woman? I understand that it would become a turn-off after you gain knowledge, but that initial attraction still happened.

No, it means you were attracted to a woman. The initial attraction was originally towards who you thought was a woman.

 

[Inflammable Slinky]

2) Because a transgendered woman cannot have children. I would still date a woman who cannot have children, but it's a significant concern I'd want to know before things got particularly serious, regardless of the reason.

This is what I mean by biological essentialism. This sort of view is in line with the objectification of women down to their biological functions, i.e. the ability to conceive and have children. Taken as such, this view marginalizes all sorts of women, from non-cis women and those otherwise unable to conceive to those who simply have no interest in children. By no means am I accusing you of objectification directly, but I would encourage you to reflect on the roots of such a focus on the ability to conceive, as it does contribute to the culture of objectification.

 

[Emitan]

If you showed me a picture of a beautiful woman and I said I was attracted, but then told me she was a hardcore smoker I would lose interest pretty quickly. I don't think this makes me a bigot, but I doubt very many bigots think they are bigoted!

For the record, as I have said twice in this thread so far, I have absolutely no issues with a trans girl who's post op, and I might have some with one who still has a penis and testes (but that's a situation where I don't think I really know how would I would react without experiencing it), but I don't think it's really fair to call someone bigoted about this.

Are there people bigoted against trans people? Sure. Are there some in this thread? I've hard a few remarks that would make me think so. But I think someone like Opiate isn't bigoted. People have different preferences and tastes.

No, it means you were attracted to a woman. The initial attraction was originally towards who you thought was a woman.

If a trans woman isn't a woman, what is she?

This is what I mean by biological essentialism. This sort of view is in line with the objectification of women down to their biological functions, i.e. the ability to conceive and have children. Taken as such, this view marginalizes all sorts of women, from non-cis women and those otherwise unable to conceive to those who simply have no interest in children. By no means am I accusing you of objectification directly, but I would encourage you to reflect on the roots of such a focus on the ability to conceive, as it does contribute to the culture of objectification.

Uh, no? If I wanted to have children, it would probably not be a good idea to enter into a long term relationship with someone who cannot have children.

 

[Gaborn]

It's not extreme at all....I don't know where you're from but everyone has a preference and having a preference doesn't mean someone is "against" something for others if that's their preference. It also doesn't mean they're against whatever they don't have a preference for. It's ok for something to be "not my kinda thing". That's just life....

My best friend is White. He said it plainly: "Nah, man...I'm not into Black girls." It's never been an issue. He's still my best friend and I love him dearly. I'm not up in arms that he's not attracted to the sistas, lol...more for me! But seriously...my other good friend I've known since elementary school is only into Black women. He's not into other ethnicities I have another friend that is gay. Am I suppose to be offended she's not into guys? LMAO. My boss is only into Korean woman. The simple fact is people have a personal preference they are ALLOWED to have. If that's ok for you why can't it be for others? I honestly don't understand.

People in life have different pursuits of happiness. You should realize this. I don't believe I'm saying anything too controversial or out of bounds. That doesn't make me some hateful bigot no more than my friends are for their personal preferences.

I'm not sure that's a good analogy for this. Let me use a simple example. Say he was dating some girl. he really liked her. He was making all the right moves, of course they were sleeping together and all, and he finds out she's half black. He then proceeds to storm out and stop dating her. Why when he's enjoyed her company so long? Well, as he put it "I'm not into black girls!" I think at THAT point you would have a closer analogy.

See, I'm gay because I'm sexually and emotionally attracted to men. I don't feel that way towards women generally. If I DID however I don't feel so completely invested in my identity as a gay male that I would suppress my feelings because "I'm not into girls." What would be the point of such denial on my part except heterophobia? I mean, people are people and they like what they like.

I'm not telling you you would have to like a trans girl at all. I'm not trying to make any sort of value judgment. But I think that this is not so much a matter of personal taste, this is more narrowly about investment in a personal identity such that if a person was enjoying the company of a girl, and was even intimate with the girl and found no particular difference with any other girl they had been with, there is no rational reason to be upset with the situation except the lie of omission. Still, I get the sense that a large number of people are almost... afraid that they might like a trans girl and I never really got that. It seems an incredibly random fear to me, I mean, if you find someone attractive does it REALLY matter what their plumbing used to be?

 

[Uchip]

If a trans woman isn't a woman, what is she?

Socially, a Woman
Genetically, a Man

 

[Glorified G]

Socially, a Woman
Genetically, a Man

This.

 

[Inflammable Slinky]

If you showed me a picture of a beautiful woman and I said I was attracted, but then told me she was a hardcore smoker I would lose interest pretty quickly. I don't think this makes me a bigot, but I doubt very many bigots think they are bigoted!

But what is that sort of view based off of? I imagine you have negative impressions of smokers, right? Or at least, you view constant smoking as a somewhat distasteful thing, correct?

On a similar vein, if I looked at a picture of a beautiful woman and then later found out she was a hardcore Republican and a Santorum supporter my attraction would plummet.

Still, becoming disinterested in a person due to their political beliefs or personal habits is a goddamn mile apart from doing it due to their goddamn chromosomes.

Still, I get the sense that a large number of people are almost... afraid that they might like a trans girl and I never really got that. It seems an incredibly random fear to me, I mean, if you find someone attractive does it REALLY matter what their plumbing used to be?

Tied pretty closely to rampant homophobia and misogyny, really. Same thing with using the "trap" slur.

 

[fireside]

Their is this ense amongst people who don't want to date tran-peoples that it isn't as good as natural, if your average SRA was high-quality and rendered most patients indistinguishable from cis-peoples I'd think it would go a long way towards improving public perception of the transgendered, of course their are many other factors and this isn't the sole factor that would change everything.

I find it hard to believe that the people who don’t want to date a transwoman are worried about potential vagina performance.

 

[Opiate]

This is what I mean by biological essentialism. This sort of view is in line with the objectification of women down to their biological functions, i.e. the ability to conceive and have children.

I am not saying that the ability to bear children is essential to all women, I am saying it is a particular quality that I consider important in a mate (but is not absolute, either). This is no different than saying that I consider it important that my mate be highly intelligent; there are some women who are simply born with a biological limitation in this regard, and I'm simply not interested in them. Unlike intelligence, fertility is also a quality that enough other men consider important that it's reasonably important to bring up in long relationships. If you don't personally care about this particular biological capacity, that is fine.

What functions does a mate serve to you? That's an honest question.

Tied pretty closely to rampant homophobia and misogyny, really. Same thing with using the "trap" slur.

This I strongly agree with. It's also why some men take issue with hugging other men.

 

[Al-ibn Kermit]

Haha, before the first date. “Hey, I don’t know you, don’t trust you, don’t know if you’re going to start curb stomping me, don’t even know if I want to date you, but I’m going to tell you one of the biggest secrets a person can have.”

If you're honestly worried that the person will beat you up, don't ask them out.


I doubt most transgenderphobes (is that the correct word?) are willing to beat up every transgendered person who flirts with them, especially if you've been making nice conversation with them for several minutes.

And I'm not saying that if you don't say it as soon as possible, then you must automatically be a dishonest person. It's just a very strong suggestion if you want to earn the trust of a person that you might want to be with for a long time. It's really a sliding scale where you have to feel out the situation and determine the best time/method of telling them. But if you tell them before you even go on the first date, then nobody can say you hesitated too long.

If it's a random hook-up and there's no real way they can find out during the act, then I guess there's no good reason to mention it.

 

[Inflammable Slinky]

I am not saying that the ability to bear children is essential to all women, I am saying it is a particular quality that I consider important in a mate (but is not absolute, either). It is also a quality that enough other men consider important that it's reasonably important to bring up in long relationships. If you don't personally care about this particular biological function, that is fine.

What functions does a mate serve to you? That's an honest question.

Honestly, the idea of "functions a mate serves" is completely fucking foreign to me. I don't look for a "mate," I look for a person to share my life with. Someone to love and be loved by, enjoy time with and look forward to being around everyday, not served by.

And I totally get that someone wanting kids is very important in a relationship, but why are you so focused on "conception" as the source? Their are other ways to have kids, you know! Adoption, in vitro fertilization, surrogate parents, all kinds of things that you and anyone else can make use of.

Socially, a Woman
Genetically, a Man

Yep genetics sure are important thats why I carry around an electron microscope with me everywhere and examine the DNA of everyone I meet!

Seriously what the fuck is so goddamn important about chromosomes?

 

[Uchip]

Honestly, some of them are more like girls than a lot of girls actually are.
But its still a really selfish thing to keep secret, especially if you're dating them.

withholding marital status or citizenship would also get similarly deserved reactions.

Yep genetics sure are important thats why I carry around an electron microscope with me everywhere and examine the DNA of everyone I meet!

Seriously what the fuck is so goddamn important about chromosomes?

really? the ability to procreate is probably the biggest thing you can do in life, and not having that ability is pretty damned huge.

 

[Glorified G]

If you're honestly worried that the person will beat you up, don't ask them out.


I doubt most transgenderphobes (is that the correct word?) are willing to beat up every transgendered person who flirts with them, especially if you've been making nice conversation with them for several minutes.

And I'm not saying that if you don't say it as soon as possible, then you must automatically be a dishonest person. It's just a very strong suggestion if you want to earn the trust of a person that you might want to be with for a long time. It's really a sliding scale where you have to feel out the situation and determine the best time/method of telling them. But if you tell them before you even go on the first date, then nobody can say you hesitated too long.

If it's a random hook-up and there's no real way they can find out during the act, then I guess there's no good reason to mention it.

That's still dishonest. Who cares if someone can't find out during the act, it's still their body. Anything sexual, both partners should be fully aware what gender each party is.

 

[Emitan]

Socially, a Woman
Genetically, a Man

This.

Why do you care about someone's genetics so much?

I don't pursue relationships for selective breeding purposes! I don't care about one's genetics at all.

Spoiler

Well, I'm actually not pursuing relationships at all, so whatever

 

[Garbaga]

But what is that sort of view based off of? I imagine you have negative impressions of smokers, right? Or at least, you view constant smoking as a somewhat distasteful thing, correct?

On a similar vein, if I looked at a picture of a beautiful woman and then later found out she was a hardcore Republican and a Santorum supporter my attraction would plummet.

Still, becoming disinterested in a person due to their political beliefs or personal habits is a goddamn mile apart from doing it due to their goddamn chromosomes.

Why do alot of people find plastic surgery to be a turn-off?

 

[Inflammable Slinky]

Honestly, some of them are more like girls than a lot of girls actually are.
But its still a really selfish thing to keep secret, especially if you're dating them.

withholding marital status or citizenship would also get similarly deserved reactions.



really? the ability to procreate is probably the biggest thing you can do in life, and not having that ability is pretty damned huge.

Hmm so perhaps all women who can't procreate for whatever reason are lesser human beings and not worth being around? I mean, forget their personality, beliefs, minds, hopes and dreams, if you can't bear a healthy bunch of kids then get the fuck away from me.

 

[Gaborn]

That's still dishonest. Who cares if someone can't find out during the act, it's still their body. Anything sexual, both partners should be fully aware what gender each party is.

The context tells me you don't want to know someone's gender. You're more interested in their chromosomes for some reason.

 

[Emitan]

That's still dishonest. Who cares if someone can't find out during the act, it's still their body. Anything sexual, both partners should be fully aware what gender each party is.

If she looks like a woman, dresses like a woman, acts like a woman, and had genitalia altering surgery to have sex like a woman WHAT GENDER DO YOU THINK SHE IS?

 

[Inflammable Slinky]

Why do alot of people find plastic surgery to be a turn-off?

Because people fucking love judging others by their looks, and anyone who doesn't meet the ideal ain't worth shit.

Real answer: Shaming women due to their body is bad regardless of the details.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

This is what I mean by biological essentialism. This sort of view is in line with the objectification of women down to their biological functions, i.e. the ability to conceive and have children. Taken as such, this view marginalizes all sorts of women, from non-cis women and those otherwise unable to conceive to those who simply have no interest in children. By no means am I accusing you of objectification directly, but I would encourage you to reflect on the roots of such a focus on the ability to conceive, as it does contribute to the culture of objectification.

This argument is just... really? It's in line with the values of objectification to value the fertility of a mate, now?

Humans are lifeforms, and one of the most essential aspects of life is that its "purpose," if it can be said to have one - or at least its most innate drive - is to propagate itself and spread. Now, humans are such that we are able to value mating relationships beyond this purely biological function, but that doesn't mean that the production of offspring is not an important factor for most.

Sexual preference is simply not comparable to bigotry, at all. It's one thing to not be attracted to a black person because you consider them a lower form of life unfit to procreate with; that, of course, would be bigotry. Not being attracted to black people (or Asian people, or white people, or Hispanic people, etc.) just because you don't find their hue or their dominant features attractive, on the other hand, is not bigotry. Bigotry is pretty much always rooted in ignorance and is therefore a chosen state, on some level; sexual preferences stem from irrational biological imperatives and so are not subject to reason or evaluation in the way that you're suggesting. (Granted, this is oversimplified, since it does not take into account non-biological fetishes and the like, but for the purposes of this argument, it works.)

You may consider it "irrational" for somebody to be turned off by a chromosome, but you're not the sexual values police; if somebody else would be completely turned off to a partner because they discovered that they were transsexual, then they're turned off. You can ask society to treat you as a woman and to respect your rights as such, but ultimately, you cannot change what people feel in their guts regarding matters of sex and gender. There are some people that would simply be unable to overcome the knowledge that their partner was born a different gender, and ascribing such things to bigotry is both inaccurate and unfair to pretty much all involved.

 

[Uchip]

Why do you care about someone's genetics so much?

I don't pursue relationships for selective breeding purposes! I don't care about one's genetics at all.

Spoiler

Well, I'm actually not pursuing relationships at all, so whatever

I dont care, and never implied that I do, but you asked what they are and thats the answer.

Hmm so perhaps all women who can't procreate for whatever reason are lesser human beings and not worth being around? I mean, forget their personality, beliefs, minds, hopes and dreams, if you can't bear a healthy bunch of kids then get the fuck away from me.

Another huge jump to conclusions here
When did I ever imply that they are lesser people?

If she looks like a woman, dresses like a woman, acts like a woman, and had genitalia altering surgery to have sex like a woman WHAT GENDER DO YOU THINK SHE IS?

Once again, Male sex, Female Gender.
theyre two separate things and you never said gender in your original post.

 

[fireside]

If you're honestly worried that the person will beat you up, don't ask them out.

I doubt most transgenderphobes (is that the correct word?) are willing to beat up every transgendered person who flirts with them, especially if you've been making nice conversation with them for several minutes.

If you have reason to believe that someone is going to beat you up for being transgendered, I can’t imagine that any transgendered person would ask that person out. The problem is that it’s hard to get a good read on someone after some flirting.

And I'm not saying that if you don't say it as soon as possible, then you must automatically be a dishonest person. It's just a very strong suggestion if you want to earn the trust of a person that you might want to be with for a long time. It's really a sliding scale where you have to feel out the situation and determine the best time/method of telling them. But if you tell them before you even go on the first date, then nobody can say you hesitated too long.

The same could be said for any intimate secret, yet I doubt anybody would find it reasonable for someone to divulge the fact that they were abused as a child before the first date.

 

[Opiate]

Honestly, the idea of "functions a mate serves" is completely fucking foreign to me. I don't look for a "mate," I look for a person to share my life with. Someone to love and be loved by, enjoy time with and look forward to being around everyday, not served by.

I see; I am very much an empiricist, and ultimately view people as complex biological machines (including myself). In this case, the function you want from a partner is love, or happiness, or some combination thereof. What if a significant portion of that enjoyment is intended to derive from the process of birthing and raising children?

And I totally get that someone wanting kids is very important in a relationship, but why are you so focused on "conception" as the source? Their are other ways to have kids, you know! Adoption, in vitro fertilization, surrogate parents, all kinds of things that you and anyone else can make use of.

Why do you enjoy video games? Why do you not enjoy ballet or symphony (assuming you do not?)

The simple answer, in all cases, is that these things have emotional value (or not, in the case of ballet). It's the same reason most people choose adoption or in vitro only after it is clear that they cannot conceive. There is an emotional distinction between creating a child inside your partner and watching it grow, and adopting a child from another location. It does not mean that adoption is bad or that adopted children cannot be loved. If this is not a relevant concern for you, great; I actually do like symphonic music, and that's okay too.

The context tells me you don't want to know someone's gender. You're more interested in their chromosomes for some reason.

Agreed.

 

[akira28]

Slinky, do you not understand why someone wouldn't want to date a transgendered person, outside of phobia or fear or possible homophobia? To you does it all come down to people being caught in their old ways, and being unwilling to have an open mind?

 

[Glorified G]

both partners should be fully aware what gender each party is.

The context tells me you don't want to know someone's gender. You're more interested in their chromosomes for some reason.

ok

 

[squidyj]

The majority of people here advocating for disclosure within the first 5 minutes of meeting someone, is not realistic. If I had followed this sage advice I'd have dated approximately 0 guys.

I'm not sure but it didn't seem to me like the majority of people here were advocating that level of disclosure, you could have also meant something else about 'the majority of people here advocating for disclosure within the first 5 minutes' as a subset of a subset but in that case your sentence doesn't make any sense.

If she looks like a woman, dresses like a woman, acts like a woman, and had genitalia altering surgery to have sex like a woman WHAT GENDER DO YOU THINK SHE IS?

.....space baby?

 

[mollipen]

Socially, a Woman
Genetically, a Man

So, let me ask about this—and I'm being serious, and I'm looking for serious answers. What does "genetically" have to do with it?

I think it's an interesting question. If somebody looks, talks, acts, thinks, feels, smells, and behaves like a woman, at what point is that "genetic" factor really important? Why is that factor important to you? I'm not asking to mock the opinion, I'm asking because I want to know what exact factor it is that people can't get over.

(And I'm not directly asking Uchip this question—I'm asking in general.)

 

[Gaborn]

This argument is just... really? It's in line with the values of objectification to value the fertility of a mate, now?

Humans are lifeforms, and one of the most essential aspects of life is that its "purpose," if it can be said to have one - or at least its most innate drive - is to propagate itself and spread. Now, humans are such that we are able to value mating relationships beyond this purely biological function, but that doesn't mean that the production of offspring is not an important factor for most.

Sexual preference is simply not comparable to bigotry, at all. It's one thing to not be attracted to a black person because you consider them a lower form of life unfit to procreate with; that, of course, would be bigotry. Not being attracted to black people (or Asian people, or white people, or Hispanic people, etc.) just because you don't find their hue or their dominant features attractive, on the other hand, is not bigotry. Bigotry is pretty much always rooted in ignorance and is therefore a chosen state, on some level; sexual preferences stem from irrational biological imperatives and so are not subject to reason or evaluation in the way that you're suggesting. (Granted, this is oversimplified, since it does not take into account non-biological fetishes and the like, but for the purposes of this argument, it works.)

You may consider it "irrational" for somebody to be turned off by a chromosome, but you're not the sexual values police; if somebody else would be completely turned off to a partner because they discovered that they were transsexual, then they're turned off. You can ask society to treat you as a woman and to respect your rights as such, but ultimately, you cannot change what people feel in their guts regarding matters of sex and gender. There are some people that would simply be unable to overcome the knowledge that their partner was born a different gender, and ascribing such things to bigotry is both inaccurate and unfair to pretty much all involved.

So then let's go back to the analogy I used in response to Mammoth Jones. Suppose you had a friend that was dating a girl, really liked being with her, then he abruptly stops dating her. You ask him what happened and he says he found out her Dad was black and he doesn't as a rule date black girls so he broke up with her. Should we make value judgments about him and ascribe bigotry to his motivations?

 

[Garbaga]

Because people fucking love judging others by their looks, and anyone who doesn't meet the ideal ain't worth shit.

Real answer: Shaming women due to their body is bad regardless of the details.

You're just completely out of line here and Snowman does a fine job explaining why:

This argument is just... really? It's in line with the values of objectification to value the fertility of a mate, now?

Humans are lifeforms, and one of the most essential aspects of life is that its "purpose," if it can be said to have one - or at least its most innate drive - is to propagate itself and spread. Now, humans are such that we are able to value mating relationships beyond this purely biological function, but that doesn't mean that the production of offspring is not an important factor for most.

Sexual preference is simply not comparable to bigotry, at all. It's one thing to not be attracted to a black person because you consider them a lower form of life unfit to procreate with; that, of course, would be bigotry. Not being attracted to black people (or Asian people, or white people, or Hispanic people, etc.) just because you don't find their hue or their dominant features attractive, on the other hand, is not bigotry. Bigotry is pretty much always rooted in ignorance and is therefore a chosen state, on some level; sexual preferences stem from irrational biological imperatives and so are not subject to reason or evaluation in the way that you're suggesting. (Granted, this is oversimplified, since it does not take into account non-biological fetishes and the like, but for the purposes of this argument, it works.)

You may consider it "irrational" for somebody to be turned off by a chromosome, but you're not the sexual values police; if somebody else would be completely turned off to a partner because they discovered that they were transsexual, then they're turned off. You can ask society to treat you as a woman and to respect your rights as such, but ultimately, you cannot change what people feel in their guts regarding matters of sex and gender. There are some people that would simply be unable to overcome the knowledge that their partner was born a different gender, and ascribing such things to bigotry is both inaccurate and unfair to pretty much all involved.

 

[antonz]

It might be an Earth shaking revelation to some in here but It is pretty much encoded in the very fabric of human beings when looking for a mate that birthing is typically a criteria.

Yes it is entirely possible to fall for someone and accept the fact that procreation will never happen but I can also see why people might shy away from getting into a relationship with someone who cant no matter what

 

[Alrix]

Why do alot of people find plastic surgery to be a turn-off?

Because it's fake.

 

[Emitan]

ok

You have not expressed an interest in knowing someone's gender in this thread so far. Maybe you'd like to start?

 

[Inflammable Slinky]

You may consider it "irrational" for somebody to be turned off by a chromosome, but you're not the sexual values police; if somebody else would be completely turned off to a partner because they discovered that they were transsexual, then they're turned off. You can ask society to treat you as a woman and to respect your rights as such, but ultimately, you cannot change what people feel in their guts regarding matters of sex and gender. There are some people that would simply be unable to overcome the knowledge that their partner was born a different gender, and ascribing such things to bigotry is both inaccurate and unfair to pretty much all involved.

I don't consider it irrational to be turned off by chromosomes; I consider it rooted in prejudice. They are free to become turned off all they want, and I'm going to call them on their shitty beliefs.

Seriously, unfair? I sure am concerned about making privileged people feel bad. It's so mean to make them uncomfortable about their shitty beliefs!

 

[Uchip]

So, let me ask about this—and I'm being serious, and I'm looking for serious answers. What does "genetically" have to do with it?

I think it's an interesting question. If somebody looks, talks, acts, thinks, feels, smells, and behaves like a woman, at what point is that "genetic" factor really important? Why is that factor important to you? I'm not asking to mock the opinion, I'm asking because I want to know what exact factor it is that people can't get over.

(And I'm not directly asking Uchip this question—I'm asking in general.)

A child is literally the combination of you and your partner, and its something most people will want later in life.
This is not possible with transgender relationships.
I dont know about other people, but the risk/potency is part of what makes sex good.

If you're only talking about recreational sex then I couldn't tell you what the difference is since ive never gone there (and most of the time you can tell the original sex so its pretty much not going to happen).

 

[AdventureRacing]

Hmm so perhaps all women who can't procreate for whatever reason are lesser human beings and not worth being around? I mean, forget their personality, beliefs, minds, hopes and dreams, if you can't bear a healthy bunch of kids then get the fuck away from me.

This isn't a job application and i won't pretend for a second that my tastes aren't biased. I expect my potential partner to be funny, attractive, intelligent and there are usually other things i look for as well. That doesn't mean that every other women isn't worth being around it just means i wouldn't be interested in dating them.

Also yes if having children is something you want to do then a women who can't bear children is obviously not going to be someone you're interested in. That doesn't make her a terrible person or anything just no appealing to that one person in particular.

 

[Vermillion]

Because it's fake.

Coldest answer in thread in regards to what it's alluding to.

EDIT: But it isn't wrong. People generally prefer natural. And that may very well be the case with the people in this thread...

 

[Inflammable Slinky]

Slinky, do you not understand why someone wouldn't want to date a transgendered person, outside of phobia or fear or possible homophobia? To you does it all come down to people being caught in their old ways, and being unwilling to have an open mind?

Honestly, I have a very difficult time imagining someone just categorically dismissing an entire group of people and not having it rooted in prejudice in some way.

EDIT: Christ okay sexual orientation aside. Yes I believe hetero/homo/genderqueer preferences aren't rooting in prejudice.