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[Garbaga]

This is kind of the issue here, at least in the US, IMO. Gay is considered bad and having a relationship with someone who was a guy at one point in their life could be considered gay which then becomes a turn-off. It's a societal block that's put into folks by the climate of the country. You can actually tell this because guys will be interested in a transgendered woman until the moment they find out she was a man previously. Then it becomes "but you're a dude!" which is the alarm signal for "I don't want to be gay!" Of course, they aren't actually gay because you know, they're attracted to the female gender and not the female sex.



Let's be fair here, Michael Jackson was actually a Putty Man from Epsilon Omega 6 in the Jackson Cluster of the 5th Galaxy.

Wrong, I'm confident that I am attracted to the female sex and the features it entails.

Say, for example a really feminime looking and acting man was able to get me back to his house for sexy times; as soon as he took off his clothes and revealed his bare chest and penis, I simply could not garner any sort of sexual attraction towards him.

 

[Vermillion]

Gender is decided by the person owns feelings.

Is it really now?

So are we faulting men who would not like to date someone whom is entirely genetically male, yet identifies as a female...?

 

[Emitan]

Is it really now?

So are we faulting men who would not like to date someone whom is entirely genetically male, yet identifies as a female...?

That has been happening in this thread, yes.

 

[akira28]

Conceptual femininity and womanhood versus physical female reality and womanhood. To me it's more than surgically reassigning your genitalia and hormonally inducing changes to more closely resemble how you feel.

 

[Garbaga]

What matters is that it does. Fully supporting someone on their quest for equality only to tell them that their differences matter?

Fuck you.

Their differences do in fact matter to the majority of the population, it's a simple fact and I'm sorry if my admittance of it offends you or anyone else.

 

[Emitan]

Their differences do in fact matter to the majority of the population, it's a simple fact and I'm sorry if my admittance of it offends you or anyone ne else.

I guess it's alright if everyone else is doing it.

 

[Deleted member 22576]

I'm not all that particularly experienced on the subject but I always thought/assumed that once it did indeed get around to sex time it wouldn't be a secret any longer. So I guess just to avert a potentially very awkward moment I'd say its common decency and almost cruel not to tell up front. I can definitely understand the personal dilemma of not being sure how to broach the subject out of fear of rejection or just being very private in general, but assuming you're not sleeping together on the first date surely theres some chemistry and trust there if you've made it all the way to home base.

 

[Vermillion]

That has been happening in this thread, yes.

Well that's wrong.

 

[Garbaga]

I guess it's alright if everyone else is doing it.

What is?

 

[i_am_ben]

pre-kissing? no.

 

[videogames]

Secondly, of course you should share yourself with someone you're in a relationship with.

Duuuuh.

But on a purely physical level, if you're attracted to someone then you're attracted to them. There is no reason to disclose identity for just sex. If you just want sex then you just get sex, why should birth sex matter? If you can't tell a difference, is there one?

As for things like reproduction, both people deal with that issue. One has to live with it. Personally, I'd like to have children of my own. Some people would rather adopt, some would not like to have any at all, and of course there are people who would like to ridicule me for bringing children into this fucked up world.

But I'd like to have kids. How would I react to someone I was starting a relationship with, someone who I'm developing a bond with, telling me that they can't provide that for me? Well, I can't comprehend the choice of giving that up. That's something that'll be understood at the time.

For the purely physical aspects, shouldn't be an issue. If the risk of encountering a transgender is just going to "weird you out" then wait to have sex with someone. I really don't think you can pull a pity card of "THEN SHE CALLED ME THE NEXT DAY AND SAID SHE WAS BORN A DUDE" is going to evoke any sympathy. Well, it shouldn't since it didn't matter when you were having sex.

 

[iirate]

Just because I'd never know doesn't change my opinion. An example (and I certainly do not think of transgender people so harshly, but it is merely an example) - if my wife whom I loved and trusted went out and cheated on me, but covered her tracks, so I would never know, would that change my opinion? Should I then live my life without trusting anyone because I could be fooled? Certainly not.

Just because one does not know would not change their opinion on the subject.

I'm still curious as to what you'd think of your wife were you to find out that she's intersexed in some way. Now that she's no longer a "woman genetically", would you still be attracted to her? Interested in a romantic partnership? Would she no longer be a woman in your eyes?

 

[Derwind]

Why are you deciding someone's gender for them? Do you know what gender means?

I agree this is wrong. And yet it's right to decide if someone's intolerant of a group of people based on how they define their sexual preference? If so...

I personal prefer someone born with female genitalia and whose gender is that of a woman....

And if that makes me a bigot, so be it. :/

But as a guy who's had bigotry thrown at me, who's had friends(particularly gay and transgender friends) whose had bigotry thrown at them while we ate lunch in my high school cafe... it's weird being called a bigot because someone's actively annoyed at my fully biological selective process of who and what I want to fuck...

If I want to fuck a tree and find any human analog unappealing, that's my right as it pertains only to myself and not subjecting others to follow that example... irregardless of how irrational or shitty idea it is... feel free to berate me though(not you, just in general)...

Existence is irrational, there's no plausible explanation for why we are here(of course I'm not talking about how we were created)... nor should there be...

 

[Uchip]

The question "Are transgendered folk obligated to disclose that information to potential mates?" operates under the assumption that it can not be identified.

Mating itself is defined by copulation with the opposite sex
perhaps the OP worded it wrong

 

[Vermillion]

Why are we putting sexual orientation aside, though?

I'm still waiting for an answer to this, by the way.

 

[Shouta]

Wrong, I'm confident that I am attracted to the female sex and the features it entails.

Say, for example a really feminime looking and acting man was able to get me back to his house for sexy times; as soon as he took off his clothes and revealed his bare chest and penis, I simply could not garner any sort of sexual attraction towards him.

I would say no, you aren't attracted to sex but to gender.

Flip your argument around. What if a man comes in and makes advances on you and then reveals he is actually a she with a vagina and small boobs? Would you be attracted sexually? I'd venture to say no. On the off chance it'd be yes, then you are truly enlightened man. Though that probably doesn't really say anything about being attracted to sex anyway and more the fact that you really like vaginas.

 

[Vermillion]

I'm still curious as to what you'd think of your wife were you to find out that she's intersexed in some way. Now that she's no longer a "woman genetically", would you still be attracted to her? Interested in a romantic partnership? Would she no longer be a woman in your eyes?

No one knows until they're in the situation.

However, how is she intersexed? Elaborate a bit.

 

[videogames]

Their differences do in fact matter to the majority of the population, it's a simple fact and I'm sorry if my admittance of it offends you or anyone else.

That's not the issue. The issue is that you believe the differences matter. You don't consider them equals. You preach from up high as accepting while you spit on them with the shit that rolls out your mouth.

What the real shame is that so many people would jump on the train to defend someone who was saying this about gays but not trans.

But hey, I guess that's "normal" now, right?

 

[AzureNightmare]

Secrets break relationships very easilly.

 

[Garbaga]

Genitalia argument aside, I would say no, you aren't attracted to sex but to gender.

Flip your argument around. What if a man comes in and makes advances on you and then reveals he is actually a she with a vagina and small boobs? Would you be attracted sexually? I'd venture to say no. On the off chance it'd be yes, then you are truly enlightened man. Though that probably doesn't really say anything about being attracted to sex anyway and more the fact that you really like vaginas.

You're saying that if a genetic female who believes themselves to be a male stripped naked in front of me, would I smang? Probably not, but you see how it's a combination of sex and gender, not either or.

 

[Vermillion]

That's not the issue. The issue is that you believe the differences matter. You don't consider them equals. You preach from up high as accepting while you spit on them with the shit that rolls out your mouth.

What the real shame is that so many people would jump on the train to defend someone who was saying this about gays but not trans.

But hey, I guess that's "normal" now, right?

No. He's not talking about the differences mattering in terms of accepting them into society. He's talking about how the differences matter in terms of being attracted to them. And we would not fault a straight person for not being attracted to a gay person.

 

[iirate]

No one knows until they're in the situation.

However, how is she intersexed? Elaborate a bit.

There are a TON of ways for a person to be intersexed, but I guess for the purposes of this excercise, we'll say she has AIS. She has all of the female's sex characteristics (including a vag and boobs), but no uterus, cervix or ovaries and has XY chromosomes.

 

[videogames]

No. He's not talking about the differences mattering in terms of accepting them into society. He's talking about how the differences matter in terms of being attracted to them. And we would not fault a straight person for not being attracted to a gay person.

with that sixth sense, right

i gotta nose for that fake pussy

just sniff it out like a bloodhound

 

[Emitan]

I agree this is wrong. And yet it's right to decide if someone's intolerant of a group of people based on how they define their sexual preference? If so...

I personal prefer someone born with female genitalia and whose gender is that of a woman....

And if that makes me a bigot, so be it. :/

But as a guy who's had bigotry thrown at me, who's had friends(particularly gay and transgender friends) whose had bigotry thrown at them while we ate lunch in my high school cafe... it's weird being called a bigot because someone's actively annoyed at my fully biological selective process of who and what I want to fuck...

If I want to fuck a tree and find any human analog unappealing, that's my right as it pertains only to myself and not subjecting others to follow that example... irregardless of how irrational or shitty idea it is... feel free to berate me though(not you, just in general)...

Existence is irrational, there's no plausible explanation for why we are here(of course I'm not talking about how we were created)... nor should there be...

I'm not calling you a bigot. I'm really tired and seem to be getting responses that don't really have anything to do with what I meant to say so I'm just going to leave this thread at least until I'm rested.

I'm just frustrated about everyone who's arguments are backed up by an incorrect understanding of gender.

 

[Shouta]

You're saying that if a genetic female who believes themselves to be a male stripped naked in front of me, would I smang? Honestly, that depends on alot of factors; but if the person is reasonably attractive than fuck yeah I would.

How about Buck Angel?

 

[Garbaga]

How about Buck Angel?

LOL, I thought about it some more and edited my post; it isn't either or with sex and gender. It's a combination of both.

 

[fireside]

The thing is that your gender, and how you came to figuring out what exactly it is, would be directly relevant to your intimate relationships. It influences everything about how you feel about yourself sexually and what you want in a partner, so it is something that you have to eventually explain or at least mention to a person who you're interested in. I guess I shouldn't draw a line in the sand on how long you can wait but it is something you should say as soon as you feel you have a good opportunity.

Yes, your gender can be directly relevant to your intimate relationships. But so can being abused as a child, raped, or sexually assaulted at work. All are things important for the party to disclose in the course of a healthy relationship, but, again, nobody would find it reasonable to expect someone to disclose any of those things before a first date.

 

[Vermillion]

There are a TON of ways for a person to be intersexed, but I guess for the purposes of this excercise, we'll say she has AIS. She has all of the female's sex characteristics (including a vag and boobs), but no uterus, cervix or ovaries and has XY chromosomes.

So she looks entirely like a normal woman?

And does she know that she can't have children beforehand?

 

[Derwind]

I'm not calling you a bigot. I'm really tired and seem to be getting responses that don't really have anything to do with what I meant to say so I'm just going to leave this thread at least until I'm rested.

I'm just frustrated about everyone who's arguments are backed up by an incorrect understanding of gender.

I went off on a tangent after I wrote my first line. None of the emotion in my post was directed specifically at you, just trying to throw out my perspective...

 

[iirate]

So she looks entirely like a normal woman?

And does she know that she can't have children beforehand?

No, you two are both married and committed to one another, are having trouble conceiving, and when you go to find out why, you (and her) find out that she "isn't a woman genetically". Does this change how you view her?

 

[Uchip]

So she looks entirely like a normal woman?

I dont think this is as likely as proponents of the cause make it out to be

 

[agrajag]

I would say no, you aren't attracted to sex but to gender.

Flip your argument around. What if a man comes in and makes advances on you and then reveals he is actually a she with a vagina and small boobs? Would you be attracted sexually? I'd venture to say no. On the off chance it'd be yes, then you are truly enlightened man. Though that probably doesn't really say anything about being attracted to sex anyway and more the fact that you really like vaginas.

Wow, you're doing all kinds of mental gymnastics here to make a point. He specifically said it's the penis and other physical attributes of the male body that turn him off.

 

[Vermillion]

with that sixth sense, right

i gotta nose for that fake pussy

just sniff it out like a bloodhound

Does it matter?

Let's bring this back again: Does it matter that people would not be attracted to a transsexual?

Oh, and also, just because you can't know something doesn't make your opinion on it change. For the second time. If you are against doctors re-using needles, and your doctor does, and you cannot tell or ever find out, does that mean you should just accept it?

 

[iirate]

I dont think this is as likely as proponents of the cause make it out to be

I never said how likely it is, just that being intersexed is far more likely than most people realize, and that this situation does happen. This does happen to real people, are they suddenly not what they and everyone else they ever interacted with thought they were? If they never find out that they are intersexed, and no one suspected, what are they?

Does it matter?

Let's bring this back again: Does it matter that people would not be attracted to a transsexual?

Oh, and also, just because you can't know something doesn't make your opinion on it change. For the second time. If you are against doctors re-using needles, and your doctor does, and you cannot tell or ever find out, does that mean you should just accept it?

Whoa, I've never said that it's wrong not to be attracted to a transsexual. I assure you that there are many that I wouldn't be attracted to myself. I'm merely combating the point that genetics makes anyone more or less of a man or woman than anyone else.

 

[iirate]

Merged this post into an edit of the previous one.

 

[Garbaga]

Wow, you're doing all kinds of mental gymnastics here to make a point. He specifically said it's the penis and other physical attributes of the male body that turn him off.

Exactly, my point is he said sex didn't matter and only gender did; which is blatantly false.

Edit:

Of course, they aren't actually gay because you know, they're attracted to the female gender and not the female sex.

 

[Vermillion]

No, you two are both married and committed to one another, are having trouble conceiving, and when you go to find out why, you (and her) find out that she "isn't a woman genetically". Does this change how you view her?

Well if she looks entirely like a normal woman and she has been as such her whole life, I couldn't care less (actually, since I would like a child, I prolly wouldn't see her in the same way, but for the sake of this, no, I wouldn't care). She has been a woman physically, she has responded entirely as a normal woman would physically and the only thing really changed is the fact that she can't conceive? As far as I'm concerned, she's fully a woman.

And for the official record, the topic isn't about people born a certain way - rather the change, which is also what we are arguing about.

If she doesn't look like a normal woman then that probably wouldn't be happening in the first place.

 

[Vermillion]

Whoa, I've never said that it's wrong not to be attracted to a transsexual. I assure you that there are many that I wouldn't be attracted to myself. I'm merely combating the point that genetics makes anyone more or less of a man or woman than anyone else.

Oh, then we're good.

What makes someone a man or a women (imo) is how they are physically, whether or not they were the same from birth, and then there is a mental component.

However! I am of the opinion that things would change once technology has advanced to a certain point. Maybe and maybe not.

 

[Uchip]

I never said how likely it is, just that being intersexed is far more likely than most people realize, and that this situation does happen.

Of course it happens
But leading someone on by having a pretty face is one thing
When theyre naked and looking a bit too much like the same sex its going to cause emotional problems for both parties.

Its something you should let them know long before that point, unless you're 100% confident that they will accept who you are.

 

[Shouta]

LOL, I thought about it some more and edited my post; it isn't either or with sex and gender. It's a combination of both.

Buck always does the job, great guy!

Better answer, for sure. I should clarify myself a little more but I'll say that you're right, it's a combination of both BUT, genetics never plays a role in it except when it comes to wanting children. If she walks and talks like a woman, and has a vagina and a nice rack then does it really matter if she has the DNA of a guy? Both her physical and mental are aligned like any other woman so there's really no reason to treat her like a man.

Wow, you're doing all kinds of mental gymnastics here to make a point. He specifically said it's the penis and other physical attributes of the male body that turn him off.

Yeah, I kinda boggled it a bit. I meant that genetic sex doesn't matter. I got arguments mixed up. My bad.

 

[iirate]

Well if she looks entirely like a normal woman and she has been as such her whole life, I couldn't care less (actually, since I would like a child, I prolly wouldn't see her in the same way, but for the sake of this, no, I wouldn't care). She has been a woman physically, she has responded entirely as a normal woman would physically and the only thing really changed is the fact that she can't conceive? As far as I'm concerned, she's fully a woman.

And for the official record, the topic isn't about people born a certain way - rather the change, which is also what we are arguing about.

If she doesn't look like a normal woman then that probably wouldn't be happening in the first place.

Okay, so chromosomes and biology aren't all important to you then. Now, would you consider this wife to be unnatural in some way?

Or if the change is the issue, why did you bring genetics into this, especially if they aren't what you meant by what's unnatural?

 

[Alrix]

No. He's not talking about the differences mattering in terms of accepting them into society. He's talking about how the differences matter in terms of being attracted to them. And we would not fault a straight person for not being attracted to a gay person.

This is what I was just thinking of. It isn't like transexual rights is an issue here so comparing them to gays seems illogical.

I feel like if someone wants "equality" on how an individual, straight man looks at or forms attractions to normal women versus a transexual they'll be wanting that for a long long time. It's never going to happen. They can't be looked at the same because they aren't the same, at the end of the day. I'm sorry to be so blunt but that isn't really something you can hope for equality with. Attraction is far too personal and differs from person to person.

 

[videogames]

Does it matter?

Let's bring this back again: Does it matter that people would not be attracted to a transsexual?

Oh, and also, just because you can't know something doesn't make your opinion on it change. For the second time. If you are against doctors re-using needles, and your doctor does, and you cannot tell or ever find out, does that mean you should just accept it?

Does it matter if you can't tell physically and emotionally.

Why should it matter.

also, nice analogy. good to know transgender are in the same book as used needles

 

[Garbaga]

delete. jeez this tab is ridiculous.

 

[iirate]

Of course it happens
But leading someone on by having a pretty face is one thing
When theyre naked and looking a bit too much like the same sex its going to cause emotional problems for both parties.

Its something you should let them know long before that point, unless you're 100% confident that they will accept who you are.

However, we aren't talking about leading anyone on. If someone identifies as a woman, then they are one. If they don't wish to disclose any more, that is their right, and no one can fault them for it. If the person on the other end feels duped, then that is their problem and their's alone; if they make it the problem of the trans individual, then you shouldn't be able to put any blame on the trans person.

For the record, on a personal level, I mostly agree with you, as I've stated waaay back in the thread. I'd disclose before any intimate activity or before becoming serious in a relationship. I also believe that long-term couples shouldn't keep such large secrets from one another. At the same time, I can respect a trans individuals right to privacy if they wish to keep it.

 

[lexi]

To clarify, because it seems like the argument has changed a bit...

I don't give a fuck if you don't find me attractive. I start to care when I read stuff like this and I really start to care when I see how pervasive the following attitudes are.

I applaud those who take the extra step to be closer to what they feel and to be happy in life and I'll wholeheartedly support you until the day I die.

WARNING: The following statement 100% contradicts what was just said:

But for a man to be artificially altered and say he is 100% woman is an insult to my mom, my wife, my daughter and my sisters. You are not as much a woman as they are and you never will be. You are a transwoman, now and for the rest of your life.

I am just so confused as to how this can be said with a straight face. The fact I'm a fucking insult to his relatives, and yet he claims to support me?

 

[Garbaga]

This is what I was just thinking of. It isn't like transexual rights is an issue here so comparing them to gays seems illogical.

I feel like if someone wants "equality" on how an individual, straight man looks at or forms attractions to normal women versus a transexual they'll be wanting that for a long long time. It's never going to happen. They can't be looked at the same because they aren't the same, at the end of the day. I'm sorry to be so blunt but that isn't really something you can hope for equality with. Attraction is far too personal and differs from person to person.

Yes, I don't have the time to type out an actual full, concise response to videogames ever so eloquent analysis of my posts in this thread due to me using a damned W7 tab right now; but it's ripe with strawmen and other ridiculuous fallacious statements.

Buck always does the job, great guy!

Better answer, for sure. I should clarify myself a little more but I'll say that you're right, it's a combination of both BUT, genetics never plays a role in it except when it comes to wanting children. If she walks and talks like a woman, and has a vagina and a nice rack then does it really matter if she has the DNA of a guy? Both her physical and mental are aligned like any other woman so there's really no reason to treat her like a man.



Yeah, I kinda boggled it a bit. I meant that genetic sex doesn't matter. I got arguments mixed up. My bad.

I'd never treat a trans-gendered woman like a man; I wouldn't even do such a thing to a trans-sexual woman; but I retain my body's right to be turned off by such a thing, regardless of how illogical it may seem (the logical part of our brain simply doesn't control attraction , what can you do?)

 

[iirate]

To clarify, because it seems like the argument has changed a bit...

I don't give a fuck if you don't find me attractive. I start to care when I read stuff like this and I really start to care when I see how pervasive the following attitudes are.

WARNING: The following statement 100% contradicts what was just said:

Exactly. I don't think any of us transitioned/are transitioning just so people would find us attractive. I can guarantee you that it would be easier for me to find a relationship and live my life in general as a straight man rather rather than a lesbian woman. A straight trans woman likewise would probably have an easier time being a gay man. Anyone that thinks how attractive you find us to be the most important part of this needs a reality check. However, we aren't tolerant of being considered second class, or less than what we really are.

EDIT: I really wish I could stick around, and it has been fun/interesting, but I've been up for over 20 hours on less than 3 hours of sleep, am recovering from a fever, and have to be up in about 4 hours. I think I'm going to retire. Night all!

 

[Vermillion]

Okay, so chromosomes and biology aren't all important to you then. Now, would you consider this wife to be unnatural in some way?

Or if the change is the issue, why did you bring genetics into this, especially if they aren't what you meant by what's unnatural?

It is, though. I meant, for the record, natural in the sense of being born that way. Artificial being something changed (esp. by man). And before you go there, if my wife got a sex change, I would not be with her in the same way.

Does it matter if you can't tell physically and emotionally.

Why should it matter.

also, nice analogy. good to know transgender are in the same book as used needles

Also, I didn't notice before, but you used the term "fake" to describe the vagina of a trans woman. Keep that in mind.

At any rate, the analogy (as with the previous one) is not meant to offend. It's to explain the very question you asked me here.

 

[Derwind]

To clarify, because it seems like the argument has changed a bit...

I don't give a fuck if you don't find me attractive. I start to care when I read stuff like this and I really start to care when I see how pervasive the following attitudes are.

WARNING: The following statement 100% contradicts what was just said:

This I fully agree with. It's ridiculous that what's it means to be a woman is coming from someone who isn't one in any sense of the word.

Though the difference between gender and having an xy-chromosome took hours of pounding in my head from a really patient people in my life. So I can see how some people fail to understand that initially.