Support NeoGAF

[BreezyLimbo]

Think about living your entire life hoping it could improve, only to make it to make it to the end and discover you should have killed yourself decades ago.

Plus, medical treatment does nothing for any external circumstances that may be causing the depression. Those circumstances alone, whatever they may be, may be enough to make life not worth living. Mental illness just adds to that.

But that isn't what happened in this case.


You can do that and still be depressed. I mean, you probably know that because you were depressed yourself. But if the overall situation doesn't improve nearly all your life, I think it's best to take the only option left.

Do you have a crystal ball? You don't know anything about her past/present/future.

Also, how can it be something someone could possibly regret - once it's done, it's done.

Finally..


Again, you're judging her based on your own moral standards. When I see reasoning like this, all I hear is people saying things like, "what if that baby grew up to be President" when talking about abortions.

You're right, I don't know her exact situation but none of you know her situation either. Just what she's said, just what this article says. And what we know is that doctors said she wasn't mentally ill which to me, is odd.

Second of all, 'If you situation doesn't improve your whole life, maybe you should have killed yourself decades ago?'

What the FUCK is wrong with you people. 2 of you said the same thing just slightly differently. Really? You're going to say 'Oh your life isn't getting better, just kill yourself.' Some people. That line of judgement is disgusting. I can understand if getting assisted suicide if you're already dying or you're living a life of a physical(And therefore, mental) suffering.

 

[Skellig Gra]

If you aren't suffering the same as she, then it's impossible to know her plight. Even if you have depression. It affects everyone differently

She was in an institution for 3 years. At what point is lifelong suffering worse than death?

That's a pretty tricky question and hard to quantify. She is still very young and things could potentially get better and she could lead a fulfilling life. On the other hand it might only get worse. If you are someone in their 50-60s and you are in the same situation I think its a much different conversation than with someone so young.

 

[Akronis]

A 1.5 year process =/= immediately.

What is immediate about this? This has been a very drawn out process for her to get to the point where they will agree to go through with it.

Yea I edited my response as this situation was far different. My bad guys.

 

[terrisus]

She doesn't have the right state of mind and obviously isn't in the mental state to make that decision. It's our job as human beings to find ways to make these people feel better, not just give up on them. Living =/= suffering and death =/= solution.

So I should have been prevented from making a living will, outlining various conditions under which I want to be allowed to die?
It's nice that you think you know more than other people about what their mental processes are. And that you know more than doctors about medical decisions.

Continue living in your own little world. Please stay away from mine.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

Who are we to tell sane people what they can't do with their own lives. It doesn't seem bad or that it will set some bad precedent, she's suffering, not us. She seemingly tried the get help route many times, and nothing worked. What? Let her try to kill herself and fail many more times, go through more pain, or just strap her down and keep her in a padded room to suffer?

 

[E-phonk]

I read the article now, I still don't get why she doesn't just kill herself? Or is she still in the psychiatric institution that was mentioned?

From the dutch interview I translated:

If someone says "you are only 24, you have your whole life ahead of you" I think that means nothing. My life has been an internal struggle for 24 years. Every day. Some of the days I feel like I have to drag myself through it every second. If you consider this I am way too old already

But indeed, it's very difficult to decide that it's indeed over. I am a fighter, I always tried to resist it and wanted to go all out, but I'm out of energy, I can't fight anymore, I'm tired of fighting against treatments that don't work and the monster in my chest that keeps on growing.

For me death is nothing more than a choice. If I would choose I would want a bearable life, but I've tried everything I could to get it and it didn't work out. All my life I've been suicidal, I also made some attempts, but I don't want people to find me like that. I don't want to do that to someone. That has often stopped me.

...
Now, I am almost freed from my pains and internal struggle, but I know of course that for my friends and family who are left behind the mourning has just started.
So I want to do everything I can to be there for them. It would be egoistic not to be there for them and sharing our last moments together.

 

[Hoo-doo]

As someone who knew someone who was suicidal, it hurts a lot when I see threads like this. In my old school someone finally killed themselves because their echo chamber said that it was the right thing to do since nobody cared about them. Sad is it not? We need to acknowledge better ways of dealing with this situation than a legal grant of having someone's precious life being taken away.

The decision was made and initiated by the woman being clouded by thoughts of depression. Of course she is going to go along with it. She doesn't have the right state of mind and obviously isn't in the mental state to make that decision. It's our job as human beings to find ways to make these people feel better, not just give up on them. Living =/= suffering and death =/= solution.

Living is not suffering? How can you even remotely say such things about the life of this woman.

Euthanasia isn't something that gets decided on impulse. Ever.

 

[Haly]

It shouldn't have to be said but not every suicide is the same, nor is every case of depression the same. Do not confuse the results for the motivation. If you think there are different kinds of killing, it's not a stretch to say there are different kinds of suicide, some justifiable, some less so, according to each person's moral inclinations.

 

[dubq]

As someone who knew someone who was suicidal, it hurts a lot when I see threads like this. In my old school someone finally killed themselves because their echo chamber said that it was the right thing to do since nobody cared about them. Sad is it not? We need to acknowledge better ways of dealing with this situation than a legal grant of having someone's precious life being taken away.

You need to get over yourself. This isn't someone you knew in school. This isn't any of my friends. This isn't me. We all deal in our own ways, but because it "hurts a lot" when this comes up is no reason for you to foist your moral viewpoints on another person.

 

[Garlador]

Here, I needed to bring this story up again, if only to counteract the negatives.

Man saves 160 Suicidal People

There are so many alternatives out there...

You need to get over yourself. This isn't someone you knew in school. This isn't any of my friends. This isn't me. We all deal in our own ways, but because it "hurts a lot" when this comes up is no reason for you to foist your moral viewpoints on another person.

Empathy is a powerful tool, my friend, that helps create a better society, understand the pain of others, and work with them to solve problems and make the world better. I would suggest looking into it.

 

[Irminsul]

What the FUCK is wrong with you people. 2 of you said the same thing just slightly differently. Really? You're going to say 'Oh your life isn't getting better, just kill yourself.' Some people. That line of judgement is disgusting. I can understand if getting assisted suicide if you're already dying or you're living a life of a physical(And therefore, mental) suffering.

Which is precisely what the people you quoted were arguing for.

 

[213372bu]

So I should have been prevented from making a living will, outlining various conditions under which I want to be allowed to die?
It's nice that you think you know more than other people about what their mental processes are. And that you know more than doctors about medical decisions.

Continue living in your own little world. Please stay away from mine.

A living will is more than fine and is way off the point.

The woman is suffering from a mental illness and if she herself came up with a decision to take her life, as someone who isn't in the right state of mind by definition, we should insist on research and long-term methods which have proven to help people under depression.

Also, what's with the overtly hostile tones ? I don't mean to be forceful here. Sorry fi it came across like that.

Living is not suffering? How can you even remotely say such things about the life of this woman.

Euthanasia isn't something that gets decided on impulse. Ever.

You need to get over yourself. This isn't someone you knew in school. This isn't any of my friends. This isn't me. We all deal in our own ways, but because it "hurts a lot" when this comes up is no reason for you to foist your moral viewpoints on another person.

It wasn't me trying to impose what I think is best for her based on someone I know. I just don't see how people could go post that it "burdens the lives of the living."

 

[terrisus]

Also, I'm going to have to leave this topic before I go off on some people.
I just hope those people never have any rights or control over what I do with my life.

 

[Future]

I think people are probably judging the state, not the person with a mental illness. But, aside from that, yes, people apply their own moral standards when talking about something that government endorses, that's one of the prime reasons that "government" exists: collective moral standards.

That's interesting that "all you hear" is a strange strawman against abortion when talking about something that is completely different.

It's similar though. It all comes down to whether or not a person has the right to control their body.

The fact is no one can really understand what people are going through. People handle depression, pain and suffering completely differently. Assuming that everyone can bounce back is simply applying anecdotal evidence to someone else. No one really knows if she could handle this. Everyone probably believes you should TRY, but didn't they in this case? 3 years of treatment.

The way I see it, if you are of the belief that death can sometimes be preferred over eternal suffering, then you have to consider psychological suffering to be just as horrific for some as a terminal disease or constant pain

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Which is precisely what the people you quoted were arguing for.

I don't equate being depressed with having only 6 months to live.

 

[Air]

What is your honest to god solution?

She wants to die and wants to do it in a painless way.

How do you suggest you'd keep her alive.

I've already written that I believe she probably had whatever standard of testing/ diagnosis. But there are experimental therapies like psilocybin (and other recreational drugs) or the electrode therapy I posted earlier. I would tell her to keep pushing. I think if we as a society give up on fighting with her, she won't have any more incentive to fight (which ultimately came to fruition). Note, I'm not saying these are for sure treatments, but it's something and I think that matters.

What if she had these thoughts since (that's say) 12. She has had every kind of therapy and has gone through other tests and been in drugs as well. So for half her life she has had these feelings and nothing has worked. What would you suggest then?

Read my above post and the other ones I wrote earlier.

 

[Night Hunter]

From the dutch interview I translated:

Thanks.

Still, there should be easier ways to do it than beg for permission. I mean seriously, if I wanted to off myself and not put the burden on my family members or friends I would find a satisfactory way.

 

[Straight Edge]

People either have an absolute right to their own bodies or they don't. Not allowing her to be euthanised sets a dangerous precedent for governments to make decisions regarding our individual dignity as human beings.

 

[HK-47]

A living will is more than fine and is way off the point.

The woman is suffering from a mental illness and if she herself came up with a decision to take her life, as someone who isn't in the right state of mind by definition, we should insist on research and long-term methods which have proven to help people under depression.

Also, what's with the overtly hostile tones?

Well it isnt just her decision though. Her doctors also reached this conclusion, otherwise this wouldnt have gone anywhere.

 

[John Kowalski]

If this special exception has been made, and will perhaps continue to be made under the supervision of medical examinations and requiring approval, then i have no qualms about it.

People will try to kill themselves regardless, it's best to have a legal framework that enables giving them less painful and risky methods.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Here, I needed to bring this story up again, if only to counteract the negatives.

Man saves 160 Suicidal People

There are so many alternatives out there...

I can almost guarantee you most of those people weren't clinically diagnosed as suffering from depression. There's a significant difference between the person who commits suicide due to being down on their luck, and the person who has spent 3 years in a ward trying to fight it.

 

[E-phonk]

Thanks.

Still, there should be easier ways to do it than beg for permission. I mean seriously, if I wanted to off myself and not put the burden on my family members or friends I would find a satisfactory way.

I personally see it as a satisfactory way, and apparently she also. BTW, the reason she did the interview was to counter some of the critisism / negativity that exists about it.

 

[Griss]

Here, I needed to bring this story up again, if only to counteract the negatives.

Man saves 160 Suicidal People

There are so many alternatives out there...


Empathy is a powerful tool, my friend, that helps create a better society, understand the pain of others, and work with them to solve problems and make the world better. I would suggest looking into it.

Wow, what an amazing story. Almost washes away the horror of this thread.

And I'm sure many in this thread would have seen those people at that cliff and said 'Fuck it, you don't know their suffering, they wouldn't make this decision lightly, it's their choice, let them jump.' To all of those people, and I say this from the bottom of my heart as someone who struggled with depression and beat it with courage and help:

Fuck you.

 

[Maxim726X]

As a health care professional, I've always agreed with PAS as long as the patient in question has the mental clarity to make the decision... As in, they would have to be cleared by a psychiatrist.

Since she wouldn't have been cleared, I don't think it's the right thing to do. Mental illness and depression is an ongoing struggle with peaks and valleys. Should someone at their lowest be allowed to make this decision? I personally don't believe they should.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I can almost guarantee you most of those people weren't clinically diagnosed as suffering from depression. There's a significant difference between the person who commits suicide due to being down on their luck, and the person who has spent 3 years in a ward trying to fight it.

You don't know that though, do you? That those people were just jumping as a spur of the moment?

 

[Hoo-doo]

What the FUCK is wrong with you people. 2 of you said the same thing just slightly differently. Really? You're going to say 'Oh your life isn't getting better, just kill yourself.' Some people. That line of judgement is disgusting. I can understand if getting assisted suicide if you're already dying or you're living a life of a physical(And therefore, mental) suffering.

So mental suffering is not actual suffering?

 

[Ayt]

Wow, what an amazing story. Almost washes away the horror of this thread.

And I'm sure many in this thread would have seen those people at that cliff and said 'Fuck it, you don't know their suffering, they wouldn't make this decision lightly, it's their choice, let them jump.' To all of those people, and I say this from the bottom of my heart as someone who struggled with depression and beat it with courage and help:

Fuck you.

It is almost as if jumping off a cliff and going through the process in Belgium are two very different things.

 

[Garlador]

I can almost guarantee you most of those people weren't clinically diagnosed as suffering from depression. There's a significant difference between the person who commits suicide due to being down on their luck, and the person who has spent 3 years in a ward trying to fight it.

I'm pretty sure out of the 160 people he saved, plenty of them were clinically depressed. This man did much to enable them to get the help they needed.

And he didn't always succeed. But he kept at it, and there are over 160 people who wanted to end their lives that he convinced to keep living. That's incredible.

 

[Agremont]

Wow, what an amazing story. Almost washes away the horror of this thread.

And I'm sure many in this thread would have seen those people at that cliff and said 'Fuck it, you don't know their suffering, they wouldn't make this decision lightly, it's their choice, let them jump.' To all of those people, and I say this from the bottom of my heart as someone who struggled with depression and beat it with courage and help:

Fuck you.

But it's completely different situations! Seriously, you can't compare them.

 

[terrisus]

Just to reply to one last quote before I leave this topic:

Also, what's with the overtly hostile tones ? I don't mean to be forceful here. Sorry fi it came across like that.

You're literally trying to forcefully control what other people do with their lives.
You're trying to tell them, and medical professionals, that the conclusions they have reached are wrong.

What you are doing is disgusting, repulsive, and reprehensible.

Considering that, I think I've been fairly civil.
Which is why I'm leaving before it escalates further.

 

[Beefy]

There was a time when "voluntary euthanasia" meant something very different, when "mental illness" meant something different. It was a different era, with a different set of standards, a different level of medical sophistication and, hell, even a different approach to civil rights.

As a society, we're not in that time anymore. This is a new age of medicine and medical ethics, it doesn't really make sense to cling onto all the baggage from the past.

Yep when I first went to the doctors (10yrs ago) with health problems I had loads of tests that all came back negative. Then another doctor suggested I may have a mental illness, my doctor said there was no such thing and I was faking it. Even tho my condition was so bad I was puking up blood due to the amount of times I was being sick. It took me a further 6 yrs to get the right diagnosis that I was suffering from anxiety/depression etc. Since then I have been to various therapies and finally found one that worked. Despite it being nearly half my life I count myself lucky as I got over my illness, some people can't.

 

[213372bu]

Well it isnt just her decision though. Her doctors also reached this conclusion, otherwise this wouldnt have gone anywhere.

It shows that she has felt this way since childhood and that probably made matters much worse.

I wish she could've gotten help sooner and maybe she could've found a way for it to be relieved.

 

[Griss]

It is almost as if jumping off a cliff and going through the process in Belgium are two very different things.

But it's completely different situations! Seriously, you can't compare them.

No, in both a mentally ill person is making a decision they are not of sound mind to make due to their illness. In both, there is still a chance that said illness is cured.

It's the exact same from where I'm standing, we just know far more about the symptoms of the illness the Belgian women is suffering from than those of the people at the cliffs.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

So mental suffering is not actual suffering?

Don't try to twist my words. There are psychiatrists, there are medications that can assist with the alleviation of some mental suffering. Like Depression. It's different than say, you're missing all the limbs of your body and you only have X amount of time to live and you're in constant pain. One is uncontrollable, IE missing limbs or having a disease that's going to kill you soon, and luckily we live in a society where the other is controllable through therapy or medication. Sure not all mental illnesses are controllable like that, but something like Depression is.

 

[Maxim726X]

I'm pretty sure out of the 160 people he saved, plenty of them were clinically depressed.

Semantics either way, as far as I'm concerned.

I've worked with clinically depressed people for years... Most chronic, some acute. The moments in which someone makes the decision to go through with this are similar in either case. It's a transient desire, one that if acted upon may be the last decision they make.

 

[Irminsul]

No, in both a mentally ill person is making a decision they are not of sound mind to make due to their illness. In both, there is still a chance that said illness is cured.

That's why we have medical professionals in the Belgian case.

 

[maquiladora]

Here, I needed to bring this story up again, if only to counteract the negatives.

Man saves 160 Suicidal People

There are so many alternatives out there...

Every case is different. Remember this is just one case. It look a long time for the doctors to approve this.

 

[GaimeGuy]

This is NOT what euthanasia should be used for.
Unless her brain is physically incapable of happiness, in which case it's really up to the doctors. I don't know what kind of structural and chemical abnormalities she'd need to have in her brain for happiness to be a medical impossibility though, as I'm not a doctor, but I assume it's theoretically possible. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth though, and I hope that they know what they're doing

 

[Hoo-doo]

Don't try to twist my words. There are psychiatrists, there are medications that can assist with the alleviation of some mental suffering. Like Depression. It's different than say, you're missing all the limbs of your body and you only have X amount of time to live and you're in constant pain. One is uncontrollable, IE missing limbs or having a disease that's going to kill you soon, and luckily we live in a society where the other is controllable through therapy or medication. Sure not all mental illnesses are controllable like that, but something like Depression is.

Christ. If the situation outlined in the OP could be alleviated with a fucking pill she wouldn't be asking the state for access to euthanasia.

Are you just acting this dense? God I hope so.

 

[Joni]

No, in both a mentally ill person is making a decision they are not of sound mind to make due to their illness. In both, there is still a chance that said illness is cured.

You can say the same about many other illnesses. Who knows, maybe that cancer cure is coming in one year and you're using euthanasia now. Can't you suffer a year more, maybe there is a cure?

 

[collige]

As a health care professional, I've always agreed with PAS as long as the patient in question has the mental clarity to make the decision... As in, they would have to be cleared by a psychiatrist.

Since she wouldn't have been cleared, I don't think it's the right thing to do. Mental illness and depression is an ongoing struggle with peaks and valleys. Should someone at their lowest be allowed to make this decision? I personally don't believe they should.

It looks like she was cleared by the same standards that terminally ill patients are (which does involve being cleared by doctors). If she's constantly suicidally depressed, I'm not really sure what qualifies as having the clarity to make such a decision.


Ultimately, it looks like this was done in line with the standards set forth by the Belgian gov't (see humbug's post above) and since I don't disagree with how the standards are written or with how this woman's case applies to them, I can't really disagree with this. It's a terrible situation all around though.

 

[Haly]

I don't equate being depressed with having only 6 months to live.

Let's put it another way.

Say a patient is suffering from a medical condition where a tumor in their brain triggers their pain center and results in chronic pain. And, for whatever reason, there is no therapy available given our current level of medicinal technology, neither pharmaceutical, radiological, or surgical. Technically, the patient is of sound body and mind, and their lifespan is not threatened in any way. Only, being conscious is a kind of torture.

Would you feel the same about this hypothetical patient as you do about the Belgian woman? Perhaps in mild cases of chronic pain? Then feel free to increase the pain, this is a fiction after all.

The point is, where do you want to draw the line between "bearable pain" and "unbearable pain". Lifespan is not the be all and end all of a modern, human life. Quality of the years matters just as much as the quantity of years.

 

[HK-47]

Don't try to twist my words. There are psychiatrists, there are medications that can assist with the alleviation of some mental suffering. Like Depression. It's different than say, you're missing all the limbs of your body and you only have X amount of time to live and you're in constant pain. One is uncontrollable, IE missing limbs or having a disease that's going to kill you soon, and luckily we live in a society where the other is controllable through therapy or medication. Sure not all mental illnesses are controllable like that, but something like Depression is.

Some people try all the meds and the treatments and it doesnt work.

 

[Resident_UA]

Wait did they just give her a "right" or are they forcing physicians to perform the procedure? These are very different.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Christ. If the situation outlined in the OP could be alleviated with a fucking pill she wouldn't be asking the state for access to euthanasia.

Are you just acting this dense? God I hope so.

We don't know all the details. There are people that don't take pills because they simply are against that type of medication. And I doubt the doctors would've forced her to take the pills.

 

[patapuf]

You're right, I don't know her exact situation but none of you know her situation either. Just what she's said, just what this article says. And what we know is that doctors said she wasn't mentally ill which to me, is odd.

Second of all, 'If you situation doesn't improve your whole life, maybe you should have killed yourself decades ago?'

What the FUCK is wrong with you people. 2 of you said the same thing just slightly differently. Really? You're going to say 'Oh your life isn't getting better, just kill yourself.' Some people. That line of judgement is disgusting. I can understand if getting assisted suicide if you're already dying or you're living a life of a physical(And therefore, mental) suffering.

We don't know all the details. There are people that don't take pills because they simply are against that type of medication. And I doubt the doctors would've forced her to take the pills.

Mental suffering can lead to physical suffering as well. (and it does in her case). Her direct testimony's as well as details to this case have been posted and translated by E-phonk in the first few pages of the thread. People just seem to ingore them for some reason.

She sounds sound of mind and as if she's suffering terribly. She's certainly in no shape to enjoy life.

I don't like it but i'm not going to say to her "no you can't do what you want because i'm uncomfortable with it even though you've sought treatment for years- in vain."

 

[E-phonk]

It looks like she was cleared by the same standards that terminally ill patients are (which does involve being cleared by doctors). If she's constantly suicidally depressed, I'm not really sure what qualifies as having the clarity to make such a decision.

No, when you are terminally ill you only need to ask for it and get clearance from your doctor and one other external doctor.

In this care there is a seperate procedure, involving the approval of 3 doctors, an ethical commission and a certain time in which you get psychological support (which she already had in this case).

Let's put it another way.

Say a patient is suffering from a medical condition where a tumor in their brain triggers their pain center and results in chronic pain. And, for whatever reason, there is no therapy available given our current level of medicinal technology, neither pharmaceutical, radiological, or surgical. Technically, the patient is of sound body and mind, and their lifespan is not threatened in any way. Only, being conscious is a kind of torture.

Would you feel the same about this hypothetical patient as you do about the Belgian woman? Perhaps in mild cases of chronic pain? Then feel free to increase the pain, this is a fiction after all.

The point is, where do you want to draw the line between "bearable pain" and "unbearable pain". Lifespan is not the be all and end all of a modern, human life. Quality of the years matters just as much as the quantity of years.

Indeed

Wait did they just give her a "right" or are they forcing physicians to perform the procedure? These are very different.

There is hardly any physician in belgium who is not willing to help someone with euthanasia in 2015. If they don't want to perform it they can ask a colleague. But Belgium has this law since 2002 and while there was some controversy in the beginning there is huge support for it these days.

Newspapers, doctors, patients etc would riot if a conservative party would revoke this law these days. (Which will never happen because only the extreme right / racist party is against this btw)

 

[MikeDip]

Some people try all the meds and the treatments and it doesnt work.

That's really not in the realm of possibility, there is too much to try.

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

Is there any other source besides these tabloid sources?

As someone with past suicide attempts, I cannot be behind it.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

You don't know that though, do you? That those people were just jumping as a spur of the moment?

No, I do not know it. I do know that my own experience has been that most people who say they are depressed have not been clinically diagnosed and are just using it as a fill-in for "my life is in a bad place right now". I also know that the two people I've personally lost to suicide seemed to have made the choice due to their circumstances above all else. At least it was the impression from their suicide notes. Neither had been officially diagnosed with depression.

I'm pretty sure out of the 160 people he saved, plenty of them were clinically depressed. This man did much to enable them to get the help they needed.

And he didn't always succeed. But he kept at it, and there are over 160 people who wanted to end their lives that he convinced to keep living. That's incredible.

Maybe. I'm sure many weren't also. So it can't exactly be used as justification for either case. And I'm not saying people should throw themselves from bridges. I'm glad this man stopped 160 people from doing so. I hope those people went on to received psychiatric attention. And for those who it didn't help, I hope they are given the choice to be euthanized if that is what they want.