It's our job as human beings to make decisions for other people and decide when they're being unreasonable? I see.
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Belgian woman, 24, granted right to die by euthanasia over suicidal thoughts
- Thread starter neojubei
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It's our job as human beings to make decisions for other people and decide when they're being unreasonable? I see.
ThankYouDaletech
Banned
The mental health industry, at least here in America, is a cruel, disgusting and inneffective joke.
I take no issue with someone wanting to take this way out. None.
But options SHOULD be exhausted by medical staff who will be assisting in this. Simply saying, "but she's young! You never know what can happen if you wait!" Is fucking selfish and hypocritical.
She'll either have it done cleanly and with lots of advanced warning for family, or be found with a gun shot wound, noose or something else horrible.
It's her life at the end of the day and she's going to choose whether she wants to exhaust these options or not. No matter how bad it makes everyone else feel, she has to choose her path.
But options SHOULD be exhausted by medical staff who will be assisting in this. Simply saying, "but she's young! You never know what can happen if you wait!" Is fucking selfish and hypocritical.
She'll either have it done cleanly and with lots of advanced warning for family, or be found with a gun shot wound, noose or something else horrible.
It's her life at the end of the day and she's going to choose whether she wants to exhaust these options or not. No matter how bad it makes everyone else feel, she has to choose her path.
Terrisus, I don't think I'm exactly clear. I think the doctors have reached these conclusions today as a result of not having enough of needed research on mental illnesses. I don't think that a forceful hand should go out and just ban people who feel they have been suicdal since their early childhood or other reasons, I think after a long process, that they'er should be a way to go and seek euthanasia, but once again with the needed research we wouldn't have to resort to this. I DON'T think that gaffers should post things like "suicidal persons are a burden to the living" or the like.
Sorry.
For all we know, the people at the cliff have gotten no treatment up to that point in their life. That isn't the case with the woman in Belgium.
You appear to have the stance that suicide in a case like this is always wrong so I won't argue with you further.
I just read that, wasn't aware that she was cleared.
In states in which PAS is allowed, one has to undergo multiple evaluations from multiple psychiatrists. I would assume that someone with suicidal ideation tied to mental illness wouldn't be cleared, is what I meant.
Because it does set a dangerous precedent. A lot of people who are low enough to make this decision end up coming out of it. Should they be allowed to make this choice if there is a good probability that they can be treated?
Night Hunter
Banned
An educated guess tells me that you have never been commited to a psychiatric institution.
No physician is ever in the position of being forced to perform euthanasia.
She merely has been granted the legal opportunity to explore the option. And such an opportunity isn't handed out without a very, very good reason.
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
Medication is not a joke. It's science based.
I would not grant it if I was a practicing physician. I don't know how you can without ethically Invaliding your license.
I would not grant it if I was a practicing physician. I don't know how you can without ethically Invaliding your license.
Sure, but feeling like your life is a series of hopeful but ineffective trials runs would just make things worse.
kamineko
Does his best thinking in the flying car
As a long-time suicide "window shopper," I don't know how to feel about these developments.
I think it's a shame that a young person felt so awful for so long, regardless of what treatment options were or were not explored. I assume efforts to treat were comprehensive, or the 1.5 year vetting process would have yielded a different result. That is, again, only an assumption.
With that said, I cannot speak for Belgium, but my experiences with mental health care providers in the United States have been more miss than hit over the past 20+ years (from my late teens on). It's hard, really hard sometimes, to find a good psychiatrist. Even harder to find a good therapist. Lots of trial and error for a mentally ill person to work through, potentially expensive, plus the long lead time before feeling better.
As miserable as life can be for the depressed (it's pretty fucking bad), I don't know if 1.5 years is long enough to figure anything out. It's also harder, I think, to identify conditions that are treatable as opposed to intractable when dealing with mental illness. I'm pretty sure there have been multiple 1.5 year periods where I would have seemed hopeless.
I did get better, but it took 22 years of mostly misery. I suppose that's a lot to ask of anyone. I also believe it wouldn't have taken so long if I could have found more consistent quality of care over the years. It's so easy to waste time doing shit that ultimately doesn't help at all. It's insane the amount of time, years, I've wasted on this.
I guess I don't have a problem with the concept, but I fear the science isn't in a place where these assessments can be made reliably. I base this only on personal anecdotes over two decades, as I am not a scientist.
I think it's a shame that a young person felt so awful for so long, regardless of what treatment options were or were not explored. I assume efforts to treat were comprehensive, or the 1.5 year vetting process would have yielded a different result. That is, again, only an assumption.
With that said, I cannot speak for Belgium, but my experiences with mental health care providers in the United States have been more miss than hit over the past 20+ years (from my late teens on). It's hard, really hard sometimes, to find a good psychiatrist. Even harder to find a good therapist. Lots of trial and error for a mentally ill person to work through, potentially expensive, plus the long lead time before feeling better.
As miserable as life can be for the depressed (it's pretty fucking bad), I don't know if 1.5 years is long enough to figure anything out. It's also harder, I think, to identify conditions that are treatable as opposed to intractable when dealing with mental illness. I'm pretty sure there have been multiple 1.5 year periods where I would have seemed hopeless.
I did get better, but it took 22 years of mostly misery. I suppose that's a lot to ask of anyone. I also believe it wouldn't have taken so long if I could have found more consistent quality of care over the years. It's so easy to waste time doing shit that ultimately doesn't help at all. It's insane the amount of time, years, I've wasted on this.
I guess I don't have a problem with the concept, but I fear the science isn't in a place where these assessments can be made reliably. I base this only on personal anecdotes over two decades, as I am not a scientist.
Here's a fun mental exercise you can do at home. What if you are causing them more suffering by forcing them to continue living than allowing them to make the decision to take their own life?
My translations come from an interview with the patient in De Morgen, one of the major Belgian newspapers. I'd compare it with NYTimes content wise.
Umm... Yes. Yes it is. If you're a mental health professional.
If we simply allowed every person with suicidal ideation to go through with their plan, we'd basically be accomplices to murder, since the great majority of those suffering can be successfully treated.
Of course not, but that's why the process exists. If there was a good probability that she can be treated, the medical professionals in charge of her case wouldn't have signed off on her suicide to begin with.
The idea is that we should do everything in our power to prevent this from happening, which claimed to be the case, and that if it resorts to euthanasia it is a failure on our part. The line of thinking of most of these posts don't fall into that reasoning and the whole "it's your choice" came across to me like anybody should just out and euthanize if they want to because it is their body and that an opposition to it would be worse than ideal. When, in reality, that opposition has caused tons of people to no longer be suicidal.
I don't know enough about her case to say definitively either way, but I sincerely doubt she's exhausted all available treatment modalities at her age.
Resident_UA
Member
It seems like reasonable right to give to a person... Physicians technically should be informed enough not to perform euthanasia on everyone that asks for it. But I do see how this could go wrong...
ThankYouDaletech
Banned
For some it's the most empowering thing they could ever do for themselves. And there are those who want to take that away so they won't have to deal with uncomfortable thoughts. Mind-boggling.
Yes, it is uncomfortable to send someone to death when they can be treated.
Crazy, I know.
How do we know they can be treated?
I fully support euthanasia for terminal diseases. It is easy to be an armchair critic in this case but I am sure the doctors tried other treatments before going "you have depression? yea sure lets pull pull the plug".
Are you a doctor and have you diagnosed the patient in person? Do you think they haven't tried treating her?
Are you a doctor and have you diagnosed the patient in person? Do you think they haven't tried treating her?
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
Watch The Bridge
Read Night Falls Fast
NoblesseOblige
Banned
She's been treated. For 3 years (at least). It didn't work. Do you really lack the compassion to let someone end their suffering? Would you force someone to continue to fight their cancer if after three years of painful treatment it hasn't receded?
I'll give this again. 2 doctors have to agree. In a case of psychological problems like the OP it are 3 and a longer time.
Because most can. Simple statistics.
Is it possible that she is among those with no hope? Yes... But at her age? I'm not sure if she has exhausted all of her options yet.
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
3 years is nothing. It's not chemotherapy.
It takes a lot of trial and error to find the right dosage and medication.
maquiladora
Member
They are the doctors familiar with her case, not us. I'm inclined to think that they know what they are doing here.
I imagine that cycling through countless powerful psychoactive drugs that don't actually work year after year while living in a psychiatric facility isn't a pleasant existence.
This sounds exceptionally selfish. As a mental health professional, I'd like to think one's job would be to prevent a patient from incurring further suffering, increasing their happiness and/or improving their overall mental state.
You continue to operate under the assumption that life is better than non-life in all cases. That living is in every person's best interest, regardless of the amount of suffering they may go through in the process.
I can't speak to that, as I got extremely lucky and the first med I tried worked pretty damn well for me, minus some shitty but worthwhile side effects.
I have a friend who lives on my street who had to go through 4 or so before she found one that worked well. I know someone else who needed to go through 3 psychologists (one was a guy I also saw) before their CBT started working.
At what point is that number enough? Or too many? I don't blame this woman for wanting or making this choice. But I do question if it is her choice. I truly do not think it is. She is sick. I absolutely promise you that every person with depression that was/is accompanied by suicidal thoughts (Not all depression comes with these thoughts) has been in that thought process believing enough was enough and there was no more hope. Medical healthcare professionals should be helping these people through this, not giving up.
I don't think that this medical field should have it as an option when the entire field is so young and unique.
Meds aren't the only options, but yes I agree this wouldn't be pleasant. But it doesn't change anything.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
And you're okay with forcing someone to be dosed and medicated when they just want to give up? And three years is just what the article mentions as her time being in a psych. institution. She very well could have been treated for longer.
Well she was with depression for longer than that. She probably tried other things before reaching this current situation.
ThankYouDaletech
Banned
Not everyone can be treated. Treatment is not a cure. Treatment often only serves to prolong a life of suffering. There is no drug to treat societal, cultural and political sources of misery.
Three years is a really fucking long time to wake up most days wishing you hadn't.
I've seen people undergoing treatments for decades, struggling to find the best and most effective treatment options.
No the system isn't perfect, and sadly there is a lot of trial and error. But when they find what works for them, they can enjoy a fulfilled life.
There are people in this very thread who ha e struggled with severe depression, and have battled it for longer. If treatment is possible, we should strive to achieve it. Should we just give up and let them end their lives?
In the example of the cancer patients, it's because every treatment was exhausted, and there is no hope for a cure. That simply isn't the case with mental illness.
Ganzlinger
Member
Some cold thoughts here.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Good for you. Each case is different. Some can fight their whole life. Other can't. Stop acting like everyone has the same capacity to endure hardship, pain, and struggle. I personally embrace suffering and make it my desire to get better. My friend and uncle who killed themselves could not.
It's maddening how people in here imply that her physicians are simply ignoring valid avenues of treatment. They aren't.
If there was valid evidence-based treatment available, she wouldn't be in this position.
Euthanasia is not something physicians just write off on without doing everything in their power to right the ship.
If there was valid evidence-based treatment available, she wouldn't be in this position.
Euthanasia is not something physicians just write off on without doing everything in their power to right the ship.
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
You're not being clear.
You're saying that people being remedied and finally being able to enjoy life through treatment and medicine is worse than having to live and receive opposition when someone wants to receive euthanasia?
I was talking about a scenario in which individuals were able to live after receiving successful treatment and able to enjoy life.
kamineko
Does his best thinking in the flying car
For those with mental illness in the thread (who don't mind saying so), do you have sufficient confidence in the current state of care that someone could consistently determine what is and what is not a hopeless case?
Everything is so trial and error
Everything is so trial and error
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
No, non-existence isn't worse, or better. It's nothing, by nature.
But we arent talking about those. We are talking about mental sources of misery. Why bring those up?
To expand. You normally don't even start to feel (positive) effects for a few months when taking a new medication. One med doesn't work out? Gotta ween off of it. Then try another. There's a few more months. Repeat. And that's not even considering ramp up dosage practices and similar. And there are boatloads of meds to try. and that's just meds! There's also boatloads of other things to try too, concurrently sometimes, sure. But still, they take time.
3 years is nothing
And it sucks, but it's true. Absolutely nothing.Like I said countless times in this thread, the extreme trial and error reliance of mental health medication makes it very hard for me to believe they exhausted all possibilities. I don't see it.
The prospect of enjoying life with proper medical attention is better than nothingness by nature.
The debate right now comes in where is the suffering getting up to the point where treatment worth it.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I have very little confidence. I don't think it matters either way. The question is not "is this a hopeless case", it is "are you willing to go through five, ten, fifteen years suffering for a chance of happiness that may not even happen in the end?". That's not an easy choice for anyone to make. It certainly isn't one you can make for them.
This is so wrong. You simply cannot comprehend her situation.
For her, euthanasia is nothing more than long-awaited relief from more than a decade of relentless mental suffering.
I really would like to see what was tried because it's just impossible to exhaust all options for this kind of illness in that short amount of time, no matter how terrible that sounds.
And I'm saying there are likely situations where this is not possible, or situations where the amount of suffering required to even get to a point where life can be enjoyable might not be worth it for some people. My question, as it has been from the beginning, is who are you to make that decision for them?
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