Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
markot said:
That's the whole point of MegaTextures... but they do take space as the quality of texturing on screen is basically (to make a long story short) proportional on Megatextures' size.
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Carmack: Doom 4 will launch on 3DVDs/1 Blu Ray
- Thread starter Sho_Nuff82
- Start date
That's the whole point of MegaTextures... but they do take space as the quality of texturing on screen is basically (to make a long story short) proportional on Megatextures' size.
brain_stew
Member
Visualante said:
Its a 60fps console game so they should be pitifully low. id will always optimise their PC games, so a 2ghz Core 2 based CPU and a 7800GT/X1800 should be enough for 60fps at 720p with console graphics settings. Any modern gaming rig should be able to max it out at 1080p/60fps with bundles of aa/af, no problem.
Heck even an integrated 9400m should be enough for 30fps at 1024x768/720p I'd imagine.
twinturbo2
butthurt Heat fan
As long as it's scarier, it's all good. Doom 3 was scary at first, but when I knew what was going to happen once the lights went out, well...Proc said:
MrJollyLivesNextDoor
Member
NullPointer said:
people always seem to miss this point but if you look through any decent Uncharted environment you can see very few of the textures used are tiled (at least not obviously) i'll see if i can get some screens to prove it but in some area's you can see unique textures/assets cover the whole environment.
Isn't it funny how any technical shortcoming blamed on PS3 hardware you'll find evidence in Naughty Dog's games to disprove it:lol
Crysis is very relevant to the blu ray debate aswell, being the best looking game at the moment with large textures and massive environments people are quick to point out how it fits within the constraints of a DVD ...but it uses loads of repated assets and sprinkles them all over a map so it's not quite an apples to apples comparison.
EDIT:
bad images, can't find the higher res versions but it gets the point across, it can create environments with very little reused/repeated throughout the scene and that goes for geometry aswell:
So basically what you're saying is that console versions will be limited by the PC version, not the other way around?brain_stew said:
Well the point would be to compress less agressively in favour of getting more unique data and accept to live with larger datasets.Panajev2001a said:
CouchMaster
Member
Eel O'Brian said:
I think Forza 3 will do the same thing, I could be wrong though..
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Fafalada said:
I should have said "side-effect" maybe, bad choice of words
.Still, if you can afford the bandwidth to stream data required by such approaches... the price per GB of storage is veeeery low and a much better bet than having a huge amount of fast video-memory connected to the GPU.
I really want to see what a more polished id Tech 5 can do at 30 fps on consoles. I hope we can get a more classic DOOM feeling than a survival horror game like DOOM III.
Carmack did apparently say at Quakecon some time ago that the PC version would likely ship on dvd and blu-ray.
I'm also not sure what his final word on the consequence of DVD compression was, but in trying to find confirmation of the above, shacknews had an update to their article that contained 'confirmation' they got from an interview with Carmack that the 360 version may suffer from poorer quality texturing in places as a result if one looked for it, but that 'hero shots' should be roughly the same quality.
He also said then that he 'believes' Rage and Doom 4 won't ship with digital distribution, although that may have been before they hopped on Steam (?) As for questions of compression, uncompressed the same article says that Rage will come out at about 1TB of data, so..
I'm also not sure what his final word on the consequence of DVD compression was, but in trying to find confirmation of the above, shacknews had an update to their article that contained 'confirmation' they got from an interview with Carmack that the 360 version may suffer from poorer quality texturing in places as a result if one looked for it, but that 'hero shots' should be roughly the same quality.
He also said then that he 'believes' Rage and Doom 4 won't ship with digital distribution, although that may have been before they hopped on Steam (?) As for questions of compression, uncompressed the same article says that Rage will come out at about 1TB of data, so..
Diablohead
Member
I don't mind multidisc games as long as each disk isn't something rubbish like 2 hours, maybe split the game into 3 full chapters to ending each disk feels like you are getting somewhere.
still on disk 1 of SO3 :S
Philanthropist
Banned
It's kind of funny that a game that pretty much doesn't exist as of now and could take three years to be released, from a developer that hasn't made anything on the current systems yet, is sprouting the same old argument again. Many don't even care about games anymore, it's all for the sake of arguing. Don't you guys have games to play?
Sho_Nuff82
Member
The 360 version does not have inferior textures.
To put speculation about Rage's performance to rest, GI asked Carmack about his work on all 3 versions (which they thought looked comparable, sorry no Mac version was previewed).
The full demo walkthrough was on PC with an Xbox 360 controller, because the game is (cue alarm sounds) being designed around controllers, not kb&mouse.
The PC version will have higher resolutions available, more AA, and faster "page-in times" for textures.
The PS3 version (according to GI) seemed to have slight color saturation tuning needed, and according to Carmack it took more time early on to get their heads around designing for it, and it has more "theoretical raw performance".
All he mentions about the 360 version is that it was easier to get to where they wanted to get than it was on PS3.
The Mac version is about a week behind the other builds and was not shown.
To put speculation about Rage's performance to rest, GI asked Carmack about his work on all 3 versions (which they thought looked comparable, sorry no Mac version was previewed).
The full demo walkthrough was on PC with an Xbox 360 controller, because the game is (cue alarm sounds) being designed around controllers, not kb&mouse.
The PC version will have higher resolutions available, more AA, and faster "page-in times" for textures.
The PS3 version (according to GI) seemed to have slight color saturation tuning needed, and according to Carmack it took more time early on to get their heads around designing for it, and it has more "theoretical raw performance".
All he mentions about the 360 version is that it was easier to get to where they wanted to get than it was on PS3.
The Mac version is about a week behind the other builds and was not shown.
The latest Game Informer with a Carmack quote talking about Rage:
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/8308/img0006med.jpg
Quake will work fine, but it sounds like DVD9 is holding back Rage for PS3 users. If all 360s had a HD as well, he could have probably just done an install on the 360 version and actually had "the right mix" and what "he would love"
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/8308/img0006med.jpg
Quake will work fine, but it sounds like DVD9 is holding back Rage for PS3 users. If all 360s had a HD as well, he could have probably just done an install on the 360 version and actually had "the right mix" and what "he would love"
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Philanthropist said:
That has more to do with the PS3 than the Blu-ray format, though. There's stuff going on inside the Cell which makes it more or less impossible to run unsigned software on it (except for running stuff through Linux, of course):
"In addition, there is another security layer called the Hypervisor running on the PS3. The Hypervisor can be considered the lowest layer of the operating system and runs on the PPE and the one reserved SPE with the highest priviledge. Encrypted code can be secured by having it run on the one reserved SPE, which uses hardware root key and hardware decryption routine for decryption. The PPE would take the encrypted code (can be analogous to an application file from the decrypted Blu-ray disc, or something from the flash memory) and setup a SPE to go into secured (isolation) mode. In this mode, the hardware decryption routine takes over, grabs the encrypted code, decrypts it using a hardware root key, and puts the decrypted code inside the SPE's local store."
http://www.edepot.com/playstation3.html#PS3_Security
(Great site, with a lot of nice info about the inner workings of the PS3.)
Of course the data on the BD is encrypted as well, but what I'm saying is that the BD format itself isn't the reason why PS3 piracy is at 0%.
Another reason is of course that the option to install Linux leaves less reasons for homebrewers to try to hack their way through the console's security systems.
proposition
Banned
Keep on spinnin'.skulpt said:Quake will work fine, but it sounds like DVD9 is holding back Rage for PS3 users. If all 360s had a HD as well, he could have probably just done an install on the 360 version and actually had "the right mix" and what "he would love"
Yes, but they use MegaTextures, which take up a significant amount of space.markot said:
IE: For a patch of grass or dirt a normal game would use a small grass/dirt texture, and tile it over the specified area. A MegaTexture is one giant texture (128000x128000) that's designed to cover the entire map. Refinements to the technology allow it to carry "material" data on specific areas (changes in movement speed, sound that should be played when making contact), and specifically with iD Tech 5 the ability to carry some geometry data as well.
The simple version is that MegaTexture, one of the key technologies in the new engine for Doom 3 and Rage, inherently use a ridiculous amount of storage space.
RoadHazard said:
Bullshit. X360 has THE SAME hypervisor as the ps3, the only difference is that MS was in a hurry to but the console on the market so they outsorced production of DVD. Ergo, the only way to hack 360 is trough the dvd drive firmware. Go watch this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...37&ei=EMxlSoWCJqOs2wKlt_Uz&q=console+security
brain_stew
Member
Fafalada said:
How am I saying that? Slightly better than console class hardware will net console class performance, that's all I was stating. Perhaps that should have been a 7900GT/X1900 GPU, but that's about all I'd change.
Take, Street Fighter IV as an example, its a 720p/60fps console game, in its PC and arcade iteration a 7900GS/GT and 2ghz Core 2 will net you slightly better performance than the PS3 version. Any UE3 game will perform right around PS3 levels of performance with that sort of rig as well. The console specific optimisation should overcome the PS3's deficit in bandwidth and fillrate, and after that its a wash.
Ofcourse you'll be able to crank the game past console settings with a modern rig, just like you can with any other multiplatform.
Oh, and I'm talking about RAGE here, not Doom 4.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
DieH@rd said:
Yes, the BD drive has a lot to do with it as well (maybe even more, if it's true that the 360 has the same hypervisor - I'll openly admit that I did not know this).
Also, I edited my previous post to add the point that the option to install Linux is another big reason why there haven't been as rigorous attempts to break the PS3's security.
Fakto said:
That's part of it, sure, but I don't think it's the biggest hurdle anymore. And no, a blank BD certainly doesn't cost as much as a PS3 game. You can get a 20-pack of blank BD-Rs for less than $50. Those are 25GB, single-layer discs (and I'm not so sure about the quality), but that shouldn't be a problem since very few PS3 games actually use dual-layer discs anyway.
(Note that I'm not in anyway condoning piracy or anything like that; I'm just trying to give different reasons to why it hasn't happened on PS3.)
theBishop said:
It's a fine game that had some faults. I've always said that the game got a lot more hate than it deserved. In the end, it's still an id-developed game, and those are always at least good. Usually, they are the best in their genre.
id has a mighty track record. They marry tech and gameplay in ways that few other devs can match. Quake 1 still has the greatest level design of any multiplayer shooter, to this day. Too bad Romero turned into such a fuck-up - he was highly talented.
Baron Doggystyle von Woof
Member
I actually enjoyed Doom 3. It was a fine shooter, and I liked listening to the soundrecords in the game. I hope that will return in Doom 3.
Too bad the MP sucked tho.
Too bad the MP sucked tho.
Can we have the PS3 piracy discussion in another thread?
This one, perhaps:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=354820
This one, perhaps:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=354820
RoadHazard
Gold Member
theBishop said:
No problem, I'm done! I just wanted to bring my view on the subject (since it was brought up), but I agree that this isn't the right thread for it.
MirageDwarf
Member
360 fans are in denial. 360's dvd drive is holding back and will keep holding back open world games on consoles. Accept it.
Developers are stuck with either designing open world game around one disc or make it linear.
Developers are stuck with either designing open world game around one disc or make it linear.
proposition
Banned
One game that uses a proprietary system for texturing now constitutes the entirety of Games Developers?MirageDwarf said:
All that you can really take from this is that Carmack would have liked to have not had the constraint on the game that the DVD drive of the 360 puts on him. One game. Not every game.
MrJollyLivesNextDoor
Member
Sho_Nuff82 said:
wasn't there a direct qoute from Carmack earlier in the thread saying both version will be the same but 360's version will have lower res textures in 'out of the way' places?
seems like what you qouted had nothing to do with texture res.
popsicle_sundays
Member
I don't really mind, I'll just get it on PS3 most likely.
I am very excited for Doom 4 though, Rage is looking great as well.
I am very excited for Doom 4 though, Rage is looking great as well.
proposition
Banned
Yeah I pretty much have no clue how he interpreted "mid-range PCs run console ports better than consoles" as "PCs are holding consoles back!".jett said:
proposition
Banned
If Carmack says he would rather have not had the inconvenience, then it is not a 'good limit'.Ardorx said: