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[Panajev2001a]

>_<

Do they even try to compress stuff >.>?

That's the whole point of MegaTextures... but they do take space as the quality of texturing on screen is basically (to make a long story short) proportional on Megatextures' size.

 

[rezuth]

They are. It's just that this place seems to be riddled with stupidity.

I think the problem was that people expected a revolution not a evolution.

 

[brain_stew]

Would love to know the ball park on PC specs. I'm guessing a quad core will be recommended.

Steam's servers are going to love this game. They're going to have to offer a pre-load if it's more than 20gb.

Its a 60fps console game so they should be pitifully low. id will always optimise their PC games, so a 2ghz Core 2 based CPU and a 7800GT/X1800 should be enough for 60fps at 720p with console graphics settings. Any modern gaming rig should be able to max it out at 1080p/60fps with bundles of aa/af, no problem.

Heck even an integrated 9400m should be enough for 30fps at 1024x768/720p I'd imagine.

 

[twinturbo2]

I cannot wait to see the direction they end up taking doom 4.

As long as it's scarier, it's all good. Doom 3 was scary at first, but when I knew what was going to happen once the lights went out, well...

 

[MrJollyLivesNextDoor]

I admit I'm not up to date on all the reasons for PS3 installs or why some games do or don't need them. But with all that unique data, who knows?

people always seem to miss this point but if you look through any decent Uncharted environment you can see very few of the textures used are tiled (at least not obviously) i'll see if i can get some screens to prove it but in some area's you can see unique textures/assets cover the whole environment.

Isn't it funny how any technical shortcoming blamed on PS3 hardware you'll find evidence in Naughty Dog's games to disprove it:lol

Crysis is very relevant to the blu ray debate aswell, being the best looking game at the moment with large textures and massive environments people are quick to point out how it fits within the constraints of a DVD ...but it uses loads of repated assets and sprinkles them all over a map so it's not quite an apples to apples comparison.

EDIT:

bad images, can't find the higher res versions but it gets the point across, it can create environments with very little reused/repeated throughout the scene and that goes for geometry aswell:

 

[Fafalada]

so a 2ghz Core 2 based CPU and a 7800GT/X1800 should be enough for 60fps at 720p with console graphics settings.

So basically what you're saying is that console versions will be limited by the PC version, not the other way around?

That's the whole point of MegaTextures...

Well the point would be to compress less agressively in favour of getting more unique data and accept to live with larger datasets.

 

[CouchMaster]

For multi-disc 360 games, I wonder if there's a way you could HDD install the first two discs, and just keep the third disc in the tray to satisfy the 360 disc check requirement?

I think Forza 3 will do the same thing, I could be wrong though..

 

[Panajev2001a]

Well the point would be to compress less agressively in favour of getting more unique data and accept to live with larger datasets.

I should have said "side-effect" maybe, bad choice of words .

Still, if you can afford the bandwidth to stream data required by such approaches... the price per GB of storage is veeeery low and a much better bet than having a huge amount of fast video-memory connected to the GPU.

I really want to see what a more polished id Tech 5 can do at 30 fps on consoles. I hope we can get a more classic DOOM feeling than a survival horror game like DOOM III.

 

[deepbrown]

Are they developing Blu-ray games for PCs yet? I know Blu-ray drives aren't that big in the PC world just yet...but they're getting there.

 

[JMC]

Are they developing Blu-ray games for PCs yet? I know Blu-ray drives aren't that big in the PC world just yet...but they're getting there.

Nope.

 

[deepbrown]

Nope.

Should they start?

 

[gofreak]

Carmack did apparently say at Quakecon some time ago that the PC version would likely ship on dvd and blu-ray.

I'm also not sure what his final word on the consequence of DVD compression was, but in trying to find confirmation of the above, shacknews had an update to their article that contained 'confirmation' they got from an interview with Carmack that the 360 version may suffer from poorer quality texturing in places as a result if one looked for it, but that 'hero shots' should be roughly the same quality.

He also said then that he 'believes' Rage and Doom 4 won't ship with digital distribution, although that may have been before they hopped on Steam (?) As for questions of compression, uncompressed the same article says that Rage will come out at about 1TB of data, so..

 

[KHarvey16]

Should they start?

Movies will be what drives hardware adoption in this case, not games.

 

[Diablohead]

I don't mind multidisc games as long as each disk isn't something rubbish like 2 hours, maybe split the game into 3 full chapters to ending each disk feels like you are getting somewhere.

Spoiler

still on disk 1 of SO3 :S

 

[Router]

Day 1 on 360. I look forward to the exercise unlike all you fat single disc losers. :-/

 

[JMC]

Carmack did apparently say at Quakecon some time ago that the PC version would likely ship on dvd and blu-ray.

I believe he said a BD release was being "considered".

 

[deepbrown]

I believe he said a BD release was being "considered".

Interesting.

 

[deepbrown]

Movies will be what drives hardware adoption in this case, not games.

No doubt. For a start producing a DVD PC game and Blu-ray version would confuse consumers. Though a similar transitional period from CD to DVD happened.

 

[Philanthropist]

It's kind of funny that a game that pretty much doesn't exist as of now and could take three years to be released, from a developer that hasn't made anything on the current systems yet, is sprouting the same old argument again. Many don't even care about games anymore, it's all for the sake of arguing. Don't you guys have games to play?

 

[deepbrown]

It's kind of funny that a game that pretty much doesn't exist as of now and could take three years to be released, from a developer that hasn't made anything on the current systems yet, is sprouting the same old argument again. Many don't even care about games anymore, it's all for the sake of arguing. Don't you guys have games to play?

This is a video game forum. We talk about video game news.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

The 360 version does not have inferior textures.

To put speculation about Rage's performance to rest, GI asked Carmack about his work on all 3 versions (which they thought looked comparable, sorry no Mac version was previewed).

The full demo walkthrough was on PC with an Xbox 360 controller, because the game is (cue alarm sounds) being designed around controllers, not kb&mouse.

The PC version will have higher resolutions available, more AA, and faster "page-in times" for textures.

The PS3 version (according to GI) seemed to have slight color saturation tuning needed, and according to Carmack it took more time early on to get their heads around designing for it, and it has more "theoretical raw performance".

All he mentions about the 360 version is that it was easier to get to where they wanted to get than it was on PS3.

The Mac version is about a week behind the other builds and was not shown.

 

[dalyr95]

No doubt. For a start producing a DVD PC game and Blu-ray version would confuse consumers. Though a similar transitional period from CD to DVD happened.

I doubt it, very few people were confused between the DVD and CD versions, plus the games will be in different size cases (Blu-Ray case vs DVD case)

 

[KHarvey16]

I doubt it, very few people were confused between the DVD and CD versions, plus the games will be in different size cases (Blu-Ray case vs DVD case)

Why would the cases be a different size?

 

[rezuth]

I doubt it, very few people were confused between the DVD and CD versions, plus the games will be in different size cases (Blu-Ray case vs DVD case)

This is only because we never had CD movies. If you hold a DVD disc and a CD disc up against people. Are they gonna know the diffrence? Hell, loads of people I know still call their DVDs for CDs.

 

[John_B]

Don't you guys have games to play?

There has been huge discussions on these boards regarding Blu-ray. It's nice to finally see the nails that will go into the coffin.

Toshiba is making Blu-ray players and Microsoft won't have any other choice than to use Blu-ray for their next console.

 

[skulpt]

The latest Game Informer with a Carmack quote talking about Rage:

We would love to set things up where it filled one Blu-ray disc versus three DVDs, which is about the right mix, but the game just.... we can't cut it into a third like that.

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/8308/img0006med.jpg

Quake will work fine, but it sounds like DVD9 is holding back Rage for PS3 users. If all 360s had a HD as well, he could have probably just done an install on the 360 version and actually had "the right mix" and what "he would love"

 

[RoadHazard]

Except for the PS2 exclusive extras and expansions that are worth getting it for.



That's what I've been thinking these days.



Low? The PS3's piracy rate is 0%, which is unheard of since the cartridge era, and even then there were pirated cartridges. The funny thing is that nobody ever gives credit for that.

That has more to do with the PS3 than the Blu-ray format, though. There's stuff going on inside the Cell which makes it more or less impossible to run unsigned software on it (except for running stuff through Linux, of course):

"In addition, there is another security layer called the Hypervisor running on the PS3. The Hypervisor can be considered the lowest layer of the operating system and runs on the PPE and the one reserved SPE with the highest priviledge. Encrypted code can be secured by having it run on the one reserved SPE, which uses hardware root key and hardware decryption routine for decryption. The PPE would take the encrypted code (can be analogous to an application file from the decrypted Blu-ray disc, or something from the flash memory) and setup a SPE to go into secured (isolation) mode. In this mode, the hardware decryption routine takes over, grabs the encrypted code, decrypts it using a hardware root key, and puts the decrypted code inside the SPE's local store."

http://www.edepot.com/playstation3.html#PS3_Security
(Great site, with a lot of nice info about the inner workings of the PS3.)

Of course the data on the BD is encrypted as well, but what I'm saying is that the BD format itself isn't the reason why PS3 piracy is at 0%.

Another reason is of course that the option to install Linux leaves less reasons for homebrewers to try to hack their way through the console's security systems.

 

[proposition]

Quake will work fine, but it sounds like DVD9 is holding back Rage for PS3 users. If all 360s had a HD as well, he could have probably just done an install on the 360 version and actually had "the right mix" and what "he would love"

Keep on spinnin'.

 

[theBishop]

I'd be up for another DOOM. Hopefully ID learns some things from Dead Space.

 

[McLovin]

If I have to upgrade my pc to play this properly I'll just get it for ps3. Something tells me the install file on this game is gonna be freakin huge on pc.

 

[baultista]

>_<

Do they even try to compress stuff >.>?

Yes, but they use MegaTextures, which take up a significant amount of space.

IE: For a patch of grass or dirt a normal game would use a small grass/dirt texture, and tile it over the specified area. A MegaTexture is one giant texture (128000x128000) that's designed to cover the entire map. Refinements to the technology allow it to carry "material" data on specific areas (changes in movement speed, sound that should be played when making contact), and specifically with iD Tech 5 the ability to carry some geometry data as well.


The simple version is that MegaTexture, one of the key technologies in the new engine for Doom 3 and Rage, inherently use a ridiculous amount of storage space.

 

[Zeliard]

I'd be up for another DOOM. Hopefully ID learns some things from Dead Space.

I don't think id is likely to make the same mistakes again. Carmack has been honest and forthwright about Doom 3's shortcomings, particularly the excessively dark lighting. The monster closets need to go as well, and I'm confident they will.

 

[DieH@rd]

That has more to do with the PS3 than the Blu-ray format, though. There's stuff going on inside the Cell which makes it more or less impossible to run unsigned software on it (except for running stuff through Linux, of course):

"In addition, there is another security layer called the Hypervisor running on the PS3. The Hypervisor can be considered the lowest layer of the operating system and runs on the PPE and the one reserved SPE with the highest priviledge. Encrypted code can be secured by having it run on the one reserved SPE, which uses hardware root key and hardware decryption routine for decryption. The PPE would take the encrypted code (can be analogous to an application file from the decrypted Blu-ray disc, or something from the flash memory) and setup a SPE to go into secured (isolation) mode. In this mode, the hardware decryption routine takes over, grabs the encrypted code, decrypts it using a hardware root key, and puts the decrypted code inside the SPE's local store."

http://www.edepot.com/playstation3.html#PS3_Security
(Great site, with a lot of nice info about the inner workings of the PS3.)

Of course the data on the BD is encrypted as well, but what I'm saying is that the BD format itself isn't the reason why PS3 piracy is at 0%.

Bullshit. X360 has THE SAME hypervisor as the ps3, the only difference is that MS was in a hurry to but the console on the market so they outsorced production of DVD. Ergo, the only way to hack 360 is trough the dvd drive firmware. Go watch this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...37&ei=EMxlSoWCJqOs2wKlt_Uz&q=console+security

 

[theBishop]

I don't think id is likely to make the same mistakes again. Carmack has been honest and forthwright about Doom 3's shortcomings, particularly the excessively dark lighting. The monster closets need to go as well, and I'm confident they will.

For all of Doom's faults, I played the whole thing in a few days. And it's a long game. So while it definitely has problems, something kept me interested.

 

[brain_stew]

So basically what you're saying is that console versions will be limited by the PC version, not the other way around?


Well the point would be to compress less agressively in favour of getting more unique data and accept to live with larger datasets.

How am I saying that? Slightly better than console class hardware will net console class performance, that's all I was stating. Perhaps that should have been a 7900GT/X1900 GPU, but that's about all I'd change.

Take, Street Fighter IV as an example, its a 720p/60fps console game, in its PC and arcade iteration a 7900GS/GT and 2ghz Core 2 will net you slightly better performance than the PS3 version. Any UE3 game will perform right around PS3 levels of performance with that sort of rig as well. The console specific optimisation should overcome the PS3's deficit in bandwidth and fillrate, and after that its a wash.

Ofcourse you'll be able to crank the game past console settings with a modern rig, just like you can with any other multiplatform.

Oh, and I'm talking about RAGE here, not Doom 4.

 

[Fakto]

That has more to do with the PS3 than the Blu-ray format, though.

Of course the data on the BD is encrypted as well, but what I'm saying is that the BD format itself isn't the reason why PS3 piracy is at 0%.

I thing is half and half. You are forgetting the half that comes from blank blueray prices, if a blank BR cost the same as a full BR PS3 game, why even bother to try to hack it ?

 

[RoadHazard]

Bullshit. X360 has THE SAME hypervisor as the ps3, the only difference is that MS was in a hurry to but the console on the market so they outsorced production of DVD. Ergo, the only way to hack 360 is trough the dvd drive firmware. Go watch this:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...37&ei=EMxlSoWCJqOs2wKlt_Uz&q=console+security

Yes, the BD drive has a lot to do with it as well (maybe even more, if it's true that the 360 has the same hypervisor - I'll openly admit that I did not know this).
Also, I edited my previous post to add the point that the option to install Linux is another big reason why there haven't been as rigorous attempts to break the PS3's security.

I thing is half and half. You are forgetting the half that comes from blank blueray prices, if a blank BR cost the same as a full BR PS3 game, why even bother to try to hack it ?

That's part of it, sure, but I don't think it's the biggest hurdle anymore. And no, a blank BD certainly doesn't cost as much as a PS3 game. You can get a 20-pack of blank BD-Rs for less than $50. Those are 25GB, single-layer discs (and I'm not so sure about the quality), but that shouldn't be a problem since very few PS3 games actually use dual-layer discs anyway.

(Note that I'm not in anyway condoning piracy or anything like that; I'm just trying to give different reasons to why it hasn't happened on PS3.)

 

[Zeliard]

For all of Doom's faults, I played the whole thing in a few days. And it's a long game. So while it definitely has problems, something kept me interested.

It's a fine game that had some faults. I've always said that the game got a lot more hate than it deserved. In the end, it's still an id-developed game, and those are always at least good. Usually, they are the best in their genre.

id has a mighty track record. They marry tech and gameplay in ways that few other devs can match. Quake 1 still has the greatest level design of any multiplayer shooter, to this day. Too bad Romero turned into such a fuck-up - he was highly talented.

 

[Baron Doggystyle von Woof]

I actually enjoyed Doom 3. It was a fine shooter, and I liked listening to the soundrecords in the game. I hope that will return in Doom 3.

Too bad the MP sucked tho.

 

[theBishop]

Can we have the PS3 piracy discussion in another thread?

This one, perhaps:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=354820

 

[RoadHazard]

Can we have the PS3 piracy discussion in another thread?

This one, perhaps:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=354820

No problem, I'm done! I just wanted to bring my view on the subject (since it was brought up), but I agree that this isn't the right thread for it.

 

[MirageDwarf]

360 fans are in denial. 360's dvd drive is holding back and will keep holding back open world games on consoles. Accept it.

Developers are stuck with either designing open world game around one disc or make it linear.

 

[proposition]

360 fans are in denial. 360's dvd drive is holding back and will keep holding back open world games on consoles. Accept it.

Developers are stuck with either designing open world game around one disc or make it linear.

One game that uses a proprietary system for texturing now constitutes the entirety of Games Developers?

All that you can really take from this is that Carmack would have liked to have not had the constraint on the game that the DVD drive of the 360 puts on him. One game. Not every game.

 

[MrJollyLivesNextDoor]

The 360 version does not have inferior textures.

To put speculation about Rage's performance to rest, GI asked Carmack about his work on all 3 versions (which they thought looked comparable, sorry no Mac version was previewed).

wasn't there a direct qoute from Carmack earlier in the thread saying both version will be the same but 360's version will have lower res textures in 'out of the way' places?

seems like what you qouted had nothing to do with texture res.

 

[jett]

So basically what you're saying is that console versions will be limited by the PC version, not the other way around?

Eh? All the multiplatform games I've tried out on my low-end C2D+4670 run at 60fps, unlike their console counterparts. And with higher AA and whatnot.

 

[popsicle_sundays]

I don't really mind, I'll just get it on PS3 most likely.

I am very excited for Doom 4 though, Rage is looking great as well.

 

[proposition]

Eh? All the multiplatform games I've tried out on my low-end C2D+4670 run at 60fps, unlike their console counterparts. And with higher AA and whatnot.

Yeah I pretty much have no clue how he interpreted "mid-range PCs run console ports better than consoles" as "PCs are holding consoles back!".

 

[Ardorx]

360 fans are in denial. 360's dvd drive is holding back and will keep holding back open world games on consoles. Accept it.

Developers are stuck with either designing open world game around one disc or make it linear.

Sometimes limits are a good thing, just keep that in mind.

 

[proposition]

Sometimes limits are a good thing, just keep that in mind.

If Carmack says he would rather have not had the inconvenience, then it is not a 'good limit'.

 

[RavenFox]

Is this in house or another raven piece of shit

Watch your lips. So says the Raven