Sir_Crocodile
Member
He wants to. :/
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Catalonia on a road map to Independence from Spain? After secessionists claim victor.
- Thread starter TheRealTalker
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He wants to. :/
This one billion times. You're doing some serious quality posting, Funky. Incredibly instructive, and well thought post, great job!
No, no, I mean, the country that he feels that he belongs to. As in further divide Scotland between their different burghs, or supporting the independence of the Vall d'Aran from Catalonia. It is pretty clear to me that everyone is supportive of the balkanization of other countries / nations that but their own. Funny how nationalism works.
Psyrgery ES
Member
I was about to post my thoughts as a Catalan myseld, but Funky has just made it irrelevant.
Great, amazing post Funky
Great, amazing post Funky
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
We have our own nutjobs.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlin...-california-into-six-states-gets-green-light/
In a few years, we might have silicon valley separatists.
I'm English, not Scottish.
If certain counties in England (looking at you, Cornwall) have a majority expressing the sentiment that they are separate from the English nation then they should absolutely have the capacity to seek a political route to independence. I mean that's just pretty bloody obvious isn't it?
What's shitty is when you have absolute majorities in Catalonia etc. saying they want the right to at least vote on the status of their nation only for those bastards in Madrid to deny them the choice. As bad as Westminster is, at least it had the balls to do the right thing and let the Scots vote.
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
I can see the Scottish-UK divide, I really can't see the the Catalonia divide. It isn't like the Basques and even then you run into trouble.
Great post by Funky.
I think it´s pretty clear that all this is just a stunt of the governing parties to keep the status quo. And I think that the current spanish government is ok with it.
The Popular Party had based their programs around posing as defenders of the state and the people, mostly against ETA. Now that ETA is no more, they need a new enemy, mainly to take the attention away from all the corruption and shitty work they´ve been doing.
On the other side you have the secessionists, who are also in the middle of a lot of corruption scandals. So if both of them agree to focus everything around the independence issue it´s win-win for all: The secessionists will appear as the heroes trying to save their people from the oppressive spanish state, while the Popular Party appears as the saviours of Spain fighting the good fight even in hostile territory. Even with the horrible results of the PP in these elections, this will surely give them votes for the generals, where they´ll try to remind people of this issue repeteadly. And meanwhile, no one talks about corruption, poverty, hunger or social politics in general.
It´s worked pretty well for them, as the same parties who have been robbing for years have been given the power to continue to do so. Parties that were centered precisely around the current really important problems have, however, obtained really poor results. Nothing´s changed, the results are almost same than in last elections, but the independence speeches will continue as long as people give that more importance than to who is using your money to become richer instead of for what it should be used.
The only new thing I´ve seen in these elections is secessionist defending that they are Spanish and that they have the Spanish nationality, just for fear of being expelled from the EU. That was funny and unexpected.
I think it´s pretty clear that all this is just a stunt of the governing parties to keep the status quo. And I think that the current spanish government is ok with it.
The Popular Party had based their programs around posing as defenders of the state and the people, mostly against ETA. Now that ETA is no more, they need a new enemy, mainly to take the attention away from all the corruption and shitty work they´ve been doing.
On the other side you have the secessionists, who are also in the middle of a lot of corruption scandals. So if both of them agree to focus everything around the independence issue it´s win-win for all: The secessionists will appear as the heroes trying to save their people from the oppressive spanish state, while the Popular Party appears as the saviours of Spain fighting the good fight even in hostile territory. Even with the horrible results of the PP in these elections, this will surely give them votes for the generals, where they´ll try to remind people of this issue repeteadly. And meanwhile, no one talks about corruption, poverty, hunger or social politics in general.
It´s worked pretty well for them, as the same parties who have been robbing for years have been given the power to continue to do so. Parties that were centered precisely around the current really important problems have, however, obtained really poor results. Nothing´s changed, the results are almost same than in last elections, but the independence speeches will continue as long as people give that more importance than to who is using your money to become richer instead of for what it should be used.
The only new thing I´ve seen in these elections is secessionist defending that they are Spanish and that they have the Spanish nationality, just for fear of being expelled from the EU. That was funny and unexpected.
QuicheFontaine
Member
That'd be England, and yeah he'd probably support that too. Or at least independence for Cornwall, which he no doubt considers 'not England' anyway.
I completely disagree with Frag but he is consistent!
Edit:
There we go. I was too slow.
Kill Your Masters
Member
Most ex-Yu countries are poor shitholes now.
Business
Member
This movement is not about Catalan politicians misguiding people for their dark interests while Spain pays the bills, take that paternalist bullshit somewhere else.
This is about the civil society pushing the politicians and not the other way around. Artur Mas is not Moses luring sheep to stay in power like some supervillain, Artur Mas is only one more that got hit by the wave this movement is. Nobody cares whos leading, if he wouldn't lead it, somebody else would. If you fail to understand this basic fact, your analysis is flawed from the start.
Exactly. It boogles my mind so few in Spain can see that.
I think an "Europe of the Regions" isn't all that bad, to be honest. Actually, I'm very much in favour of it.
However, with that I decidedly don't mean balkanisation, but rather strong regional powers under one unified Europe. A United States of Europe, if you will, but not necessarily consisting of current nation states.
Yes, I know that concept doesn't have too many friends here on GAF (or anywhere else, really), but I think it would be a great method to have a unified Europe which we very much need while still having people a say in "regional things" and prevent feelings of "bureaucrats in Brussels".
However, with that I decidedly don't mean balkanisation, but rather strong regional powers under one unified Europe. A United States of Europe, if you will, but not necessarily consisting of current nation states.
Yes, I know that concept doesn't have too many friends here on GAF (or anywhere else, really), but I think it would be a great method to have a unified Europe which we very much need while still having people a say in "regional things" and prevent feelings of "bureaucrats in Brussels".
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
Everyone is disenfranchised with Spanish politics. Creating a false narrative about separatists being a moral alternative is ludicrous.
The best thing of this ellection is how Ciudadanos has blown up PP's scheme of hero / anti-hero ellectoral dynamics by absorbing the center-right vote that sustains the PP. If anything, Rajoy is goign to reap a sound ellectoral defeat due to how shitty he has managed the Catalonian crysis.
I am Spanish and I absolutely support a referendum vote too, despite of not being a separatists. But balkanization processes are far from being a bloody obvious good choice for any country.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
And France is Spain?
Chill out dude, your reply is totally out of place and you´re not even replying to his arguments.
He´s not talking about Mas being the center of the movement, he´s talking about politicians as a whole. Before Mas there were other, and different ones will come after him. This is not a stunt created by him by a longshot and I don´t think Funky said that anywhere in his post. What he´s said, and I totally agree, is that the secessionists are using this to get power (his sentence of turning the volume to 11 explains it perfectly). Read my last post, I think this approach favors other parties as well. They didn´t create the idea, they are utilizing it. The talk about corruption during the campaign has been totally silenced in favor of the higher cause of independence, there´s no denying this.
I think you´re the one who can´t see things. First of all, there are not few in Spain who will see with good eyes giving Cataluña a chance to decide on their independence, you´re making an absurd generalization and painting yourself (I suppose you´re Catalan) as a misunderstood, oppressed victim. Don´t think that the rest of Spain are just bastards trying to make your existence miserable, that´s too simplistic and dumb. I myself am I favor of a referendum, even though I think independence would be bad for everyone, but at least people should get the chance to decide their fate.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I was replying to Magni's comments about Catalonia not being hit specially hard by the crisis and used the bailout as an example. Which allowed me to display the sheer hypocrisy and CiU and its ilk. I think it's fair game considering their allegations. They certainly still have to own that up.
I'm not failing to understand that some people in Catalonia don't feel Spanish and that they'd like otherwise. That's ok. It's a legitimate feeling and I believe that wanting to become and independent country is also a legitimate aspiration, even if I don't share it. But there's no denying that the current situation has been pushed by corrupt politicians fanning the flames for political gain. Mas is particularly guilty of this, starting with the Estatut lameness (which was known to be unfeasible from the get go; they rode that down the cliff to excite the masses) and finishing with the UDI.
Catalonian nationalism has been a thing for quite a while, but CiU created a fire that it couldn't put off and now Mas is in the process of being brushed aside. This whole spiel about "a popular wave" being borne out of the people makes very little sense when you start seeing the suddent change in the political discourse of CiU, which responded to the success of ERC and others by going all out. But the amusing thing is that this scalation hasn't provided real political gains, so we are pretty much where we were three years ago.
I mean, let's look at the data.
And again, the secessionist vote (Red) is massively concentrated in rural areas, whereas the coastline, which includes Barcelona and a huge part of the Catalonian citizenry, is by no means as as convinced the the pro-independence arguments.
It's the same old patern with no discernible change. Secessionist vote is strong in rural and more inland parts of the region, whereas those living in the bigger cities and towns around the coastline, which concentrate a huge part of the population, prefer other options.
So much for the "popular wave" sweeping Catalonia.
We've seen a massive increase in the aggressiveness of the political discourse and little else. Meanwhile, Catalans keep getting pounded by their shitty politicians, much more interested in making grand standings and pushing demonstrations in order to get attention rather than putting actual work. The CUP may be the only exception. I dislike them, but at least I can respect them for being coherent about what they want.
Of course, Rajoy is also guilty of using the same tricks (not mentioning using the tax revenue office as the PP's unofficial prosecutor). The difference is that the PP is in disarray and doesn't quite know how to face the music and the PSOE is the bad joke that keeps getting told at the parties, so the Spanish population at large is becoming more and more desinterested about Catalonian independence. The old Una Grande y Libre doesn't resonate anymore despite the claims in El Punt Avui or whatever fresh madness you can find in La Razón.
I'm 100% honest when I say that many Catalonian nationalists would be shocked if they knew how little we are starting to care about their positions. We are getting horribly tired of the same four year bullshit circle. I can't muster the strenght to keep fighting that war. I'd rather sit from afar and watch the fireworks.
Edit: One more graph. This time with the voting progression over the years.
Not only this "popular wave" of pro-independence voters doesn't exist, but the pro-independence movement has stagnated, while other positions are rising, much to my own surprise. It looks like they finally found the way to the polling stations.
Thanks for the well thought out response. I'm not Catalan or Spanish (I'm from Languedoc, on the other side of the border), so my post was based on what I've been told by friends and family living in Barcelona.
I see this (and the Scottish effort) as efforts to be "top level divisions" within a federal Europe rather than full independence. From my conversations with Catalans and Scots, I didn't get the impression that they wanted to deal with foreign affairs and defense policy themselves, but rather that they wanted Madrid/London out of their daily lives and a more direct line to Brussels. (This was especially the case in Scotland, where people railed against London's euroskepticism). Granted all of this should be taken with a grain a salt because the overwhelming majority of my Catalan and Scottish friends are europhiles who have studied and worked across Europe.
gutter_trash
Banned
That map was about languages of the Iberian peninsula. Not about Spain-Spain.
take a history book and read. You know that Portugal is older that what we today call as Spain.
You would be surprised to know how many catalan nationalists are tired of it too.
All of this would evaporate if the Spanish government allowed the damned referendum, but of course it wont because they have to preserve the Una Grande y Libre, which isn't as extinct as you may think.
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
What o WHAT will the Spanish League do without Barcelona FC
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
I didn't say it was extinct. But I'm willing to bet actual money it no longer captivates the largest part of the populace.
Just like the Catalonian nationalism is largely not driven by "a popular wave" but some chuckleheads at JxSí, the most aggressively unitarian positions are being pushed straight from the neocons at Génova and maybe some older folks on their way out.
I mean, even my staunchly conservative father has thrown the towel and would accept public consultation. And I recently found that he's still a card carrying member of the PP.
Everything about Catalonian politics is so fucking exhausting.
Baron Doggystyle von Woof
Member
Real Madrid will be champion almost every year.
The Hermit
Member
Amazing post, it gives me a nice perspective of the things. I've been recently to Spain, its one of the countries I consider living in.
And about people being played, I get it, I live in Brazil and there's a very heated battle between pro PT/left and antiPT/right when the difference is very subtle.
gutter_trash
Banned
hahahaha Republican Conservatives wanting to create their owns States.
I don't buy the "popular wave" speech, but I don't believe the "brainwash" theory either. I'm the first one that utterly despises Mas and the looting he and his party have been doing all this years, but to believe that all catalan nationalists are so because of him is ridiculous.
A big chunk of the new independists, which, let's not forget, were an anecdotical population 10 years ago, are people who are tired of Spanish politics and the paternalist way they deal with Catalonia. I myself was against the idea of independence not too many years ago, but now I just want to leave a country that I have zero faith on.
Let's be real, PP+C's are going to steamroll PSOE+Podemos this December. There isn't a constitution change in sight and the relationship between Spain and Catalonia in this climate is only going to worsen.
LegendofDragoonLives
Member
Watch Barcelona try to make a European superleague. I really hope they get rejected and then many of their top players leave them. Their tears would be delicious.
gutter_trash
Banned
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
That's ok. But it doesn't change the fact that pro and anti independence positions wildly fluctuate over the years varying on the aggressivity of the political discourse.
Looking at the latest trends one could say that a big chunk of anti-independence voters were anecdotal. Yet here they are, rising up against pro-independence ones for the first time in a long time.
I will claim that anti-independent positions are shaped by politicians instead of voters, because let's be honest with ourselves, the average citizen is an uncultured drone uncapable of engaging in proper political conversation, which why they keep voting for the same idiots year after year and (at best!) stay at home when they feel betrayed instead of taking action.
For every person who makes up their mind without listening to the politicians, there are scores of idiots who just follow the herd. In Barcelona, in Madrid and in Lepe.
I will confront any person willing to say that any major nationalist movement in Spain, being pro or anti secession, who claim that they are guided by the will of the people instead of the party's leadership.
I'm no friend or C's, which is also why I'd like to push for a Swiss-like federation with direct democracy and equal value for all votes instead of the garbage we have now. Win-win. The current system stiffles the participation of the populace and only enables bipartidism in one way or another.
Rolodzeo
Member
So you leave the EU to be more in touch with the EU. Seems logical.
But I want a super league. Or they could join MLS.
-_- you are missing the point, whenever i get single tourists that live in Spain, they only identify themselves as Catalonian not spanish/from Spain. (the ones that live in that region)
This. If we had someone with a brain making the choices from Madrid, this situation would have been solved a while ago. Not allowing a simple referendum or just an intention of trying to talk or negotiate is just stupid.
I personally think that the referendum is not going to solve anything by itself (since it's going to end up with a 60% majority at best in either way), but is completely embarrasing (and ironic) that the independentists are having a more democratical intention than the central government.
It shouldn't be about independence or not, it should be about a big section of people of a particular region not feeling represented or heard from the central government.
Starchasing
Member
Madrid does not allow a referendum because its a lose/lose situation for them. If Catalonia secedes Spain loses a lot of economic power. If Catalonia stays, they will have nothing to argue about and they would have work on building the country.
Catalonian independentist politicians just say they want a referendum because its a lose/lose for them too. If they lose they disappear. If the win they will get kicked out of the EU and go bankrupt.
So as always this is just politicians making noise instead of doing something for the country.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
It enrages me that I spent so much time writing giant walls of text when you just described the situation so succinctly.
Blast you.
gutter_trash
Banned
This is the most neutral pic of the results that I've been seen today. It's kinda outrageous that the unionist parties try to rally CSQEP and Unió along the NO, when they clearly stated they are pro-referendum. Heck, even their president stated that he would vote YES in an hypothetical plebiscite.
That said, I find JxSi results slightly disappointing, C's rise very dangerous considering that we've had them hanging around Catalunya for a while, the PP debacle is a godsend, CUP rise is a very positive force in the parliament, and finally the PSC continues to be as meh as ever.
The referendum being made, in the current state, would have zero repercusions in the independence/not independence issue (results are going to be far from unanimous), but yeah, you are right that this would remove a lot of background noise that is covering all the other issues going on, which obviously is no interesting for the ones in charge.
I just hope that this december there is a significant shift in politics in general. Impossible to move forward in the current situation.
The Iberian Wedding will probably fire within five years of them regaining independence.
Business
Member
I was replying to Magni's comments about Catalonia not being hit specially hard by the crisis and used the bailout as an example. Which allowed me to display the sheer hypocrisy and CiU and its ilk. I think it's fair game considering their allegations. They certainly still have to own that up.
I'm not failing to understand that some people in Catalonia don't feel Spanish and that they'd like otherwise. That's ok. It's a legitimate feeling and I believe that wanting to become and independent country is also a legitimate aspiration, even if I don't share it. But there's no denying that the current situation has been pushed by corrupt politicians fanning the flames for political gain. Mas is particularly guilty of this, starting with the Estatut lameness (which was known to be unfeasible from the get go; they rode that down the cliff to excite the masses) and finishing with the UDI.
Catalonian nationalism has been a thing for quite a while, but CiU created a fire that it couldn't put off and now Mas is in the process of being brushed aside. This whole spiel about "a popular wave" being borne out of the people makes very little sense when you start seeing the suddent change in the political discourse of CiU, which responded to the success of ERC and others by going all out. But the amusing thing is that this scalation hasn't provided real political gains, so we are pretty much where we were three years ago.
I mean, let's look at the data.
And again, the secessionist vote (Red) is massively concentrated in rural areas, whereas the coastline, which includes Barcelona and a huge part of the Catalonian citizenry, is by no means as as convinced the the pro-independence arguments.
It's the same old patern with no discernible change. Secessionist vote is strong in rural and more inland parts of the region, whereas those living in the bigger cities and towns around the coastline, which concentrate a huge part of the population, prefer other options.
So much for the "popular wave" sweeping Catalonia.
We've seen a massive increase in the aggressiveness of the political discourse and little else. Meanwhile, Catalans keep getting pounded by their shitty politicians, much more interested in making grand standings and pushing demonstrations in order to get attention rather than putting actual work. The CUP may be the only exception. I dislike them, but at least I can respect them for being coherent about what they want.
Of course, Rajoy is also guilty of using the same tricks (not mentioning using the tax revenue office as the PP's unofficial prosecutor). The difference is that the PP is in disarray and doesn't quite know how to face the music and the PSOE is the bad joke that keeps getting told at the parties, so the Spanish population at large is becoming more and more desinterested about Catalonian independence. The old Una Grande y Libre doesn't resonate anymore despite the claims in El Punt Avui or whatever fresh madness you can find in La Razón.
I'm 100% honest when I say that many Catalonian nationalists would be shocked if they knew how little we are starting to care about their positions. We are getting horribly tired of the same four year bullshit circle. I can't muster the strenght to keep fighting that war. I'd rather sit from afar and watch the fireworks.
Edit: One more graph. This time with the voting progression over the years.
Not only this "popular wave" of pro-independence voters doesn't exist, but the pro-independence movement has stagnated, while other positions are rising, much to my own surprise. It looks like they finally found the way to the polling stations.
Again, you insist in presenting the people of Catalunya as brainwashed sheep, victims of their political class. Do you really think if tomorrow they change every independentist leader this will end? Do you really think parties are following on the success of each other on whatever seems to work to seize power? Because sorry but that's just very simple. This didn't start with CiU trying replicate ERC. This process started with the failure of the Estatut d'Autonomia of 2005 which ended with the popular, yes popular, unofficial referendums held in several municipalities in 2009, 2010 and 2011, the creation of the ANC in 2012 and the massive demonstartions in Barcelona since. Do you know which political party was involved in all this? None. It's the political parties that have been swept by this. CiU, Unió itself and the PSC have been internally split by it.
The first map you provide doesn't show a rural metropilitan split, it rather shows the areas that got more amount of immigration from the rest of Spain (mainly Andalucia and Extremadura) during the 20th century. These people are Catalan today and are integrated in the Catalan society, but understandably so some will have a stronger feeling of belonging to Spain, hence the difference in vote you see. It has nothing to do with being rural or metropolitan. I would agrue independentism has increased in all demographics though.
The second one I'd like to know which parties it wants to include into each category, because honestly I can't tell. I assume it accounts for CiU as being historically an independentist party when you should know it's not the case. Unequivocally independentist vote has never been so big. I think you got it from elmundo?
I'm 100% honest too nobody pro-independence cares either what the Spanish nationalists have to say anymore at this point. The only exit to this is to allow for a referendum to be held. There's I think more than enough political support for it to happen, certainly bigger than there was in Quebec and Scotland when referendums were allowed. The majority of seats in the parliament are outright pro-independence and even a greater majority is at least pro-right to decide aka hold a referendum.
This is the most neutral pic of the results that I've been seen today. It's kinda outrageous that the unionist parties try to rally CSQEP and Unió along the NO, when they clearly stated they are pro-referendum. Heck, even their president stated that he would vote YES in an hypothetical plebiscite.
That said, I find JxSi results slightly disappointing, C's rise very dangerous considering that we've had them hanging around Catalunya for a while, the PP debacle is a godsend, CUP rise is a very positive force in the parliament, and finally the PSC continues to be as meh as ever.
Agree on both points. At least I think the NO has reached it's ceiling too, no more of that stupid "silent majority" rethoric.
gutter_trash
Banned
a legislative election should never be confused for a Referendum
people in my ''nations'' have voted for nationalist parties legislatively but failed to secede via Referendum.
Scotland and Quebec come to mind
people in my ''nations'' have voted for nationalist parties legislatively but failed to secede via Referendum.
Scotland and Quebec come to mind
I guess the point is that despite the wars and violence, most of the states that emerged from the breakup of Yugoslavia are more cohesive now that they are principally nation-states.
Obviously Bosnia is the exception given it's bizarre composition - some bits should go to Serbia and some to Croatia...
Personally I'm a nationalist, in that I believe the natural unit of human political organisation remains at level of the nation. Don't believe that any nations are inherently "better", just that we're better organised along those lines. Depriving nations the right to self determination is abhorrent to me; there should always be a political route for groups to separate. To deny that is to invite and justify violence. If nations want to come together for mutual benefit then great! The EU's a great tool for that and NATO has been pretty successful. But it's the nation that should be the expression of individual sovereignty, not these multi-nation states.
Starchasing
Member
Catalonia had the chance to peaceful separate, but it did not. Instead they elected someone called Jordi Pujol in 1980 and remained part of Spain. He was the president of Catalonia for 23 years, shouting for the independence of Catalonia while doing nothing. He was accused last year of having BILLIONS of euros in bank accounts. He says he inherited it, most people think he stole it.
His successor in the party just won the elections.
Business
Member
Jordi Pujol was never an independentist during his terms as president, I will be waiting for you to back up your claim. Jordi Pujol has not been proven of having BILLIONS yet, it's amusing how you like the biggest possible number, but even if it was the case (which I don't deny and despise he stole any amount of money) I don't see how this should impact an independence process now.
CSQEP has clearly stated that they are for the referendum, but against the separation of Catalonia. Many times (even Errejón repeated it yesterday on live tv).
And why should this one, most important thing be time limited? Nations are comprised of individuals who are born, grow and die, and have that wonderful capacity to change their minds.
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