• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Critical analysis of Dragon Ball Z – A short dissertation

Status
Not open for further replies.

Takao

Banned
The assault on pacing, and dialogue is funny given those are issues relating only to the anime adaptation. The manga moves really fast, and rarely repeats dialog. They aren't English majors or anything, but still.

Bad_Boy said:
I'll say this. Naruto fixes everything that was ever wrong with Dragonball, but keeps everything I loved about it.

lol no

I like a wide eyed adventure. Naruto's too busy focusing on loser side characters who come from broken homes.
 
Bad_Boy said:
I'll say this. Naruto fixes everything that was ever wrong with Dragonball, but keeps everything I loved about it.

When Naruto is following the manga, it may very well be the best shounen anime. But the filler? Oh man the filler. It's just atrocius stuff. The drop in quality is unbelievable to the point you have no choice but to skip it.

One Piece on the other hand is still very, very good at its best and at its worst it's still very passable.

They both do a good job of sidestepping the whole power level inflation, since different tactics work against different enemies. Unlike DB where the only thing that mattered was the power level.
 
I would love to see Kai's of all the current shonen anime out there, if they ever finish. And no, not with shitty reanimated sequences either, just the original shows with all the fillers gutted, remastered on bluray.
 
Bad_Boy said:
I'll say this. Naruto fixes everything that was ever wrong with Dragonball, but keeps everything I loved about it.

I feel this way about s.cry.ed

... well the first half of the series anyway (and the last episode)
 
TheVampire said:
Gotta love those Super Saiyan transformations


1899180_o.gif


Gohan_Super_Saiyajin_2_by_PrOTuL.gif

the super saiyan 1 you mean.

super 2, super 3 and the super-combi are just plain silly.

toriyama commented before that he wished to end the series after the freeza bits and I agree, he should have.
 

SomeDude

Banned
FlyingTeacup said:
the super saiyan 1 you mean.

super 2, super 3 and the super-combi are just plain silly.

toriyama commented before that he wished to end the series after the freeza bits and I agree, he should have.


I remember hearing this back when DBZ first came to the US. Do you have any links to where he said this?
 

andymcc

Banned
Oblivion said:
For a show that's more than 50 episodes, One Piece and Detective Conan (goddamn I gotta rewatch this series) do a pretty good job with keeping the crap content low.

i don't know, one piece's pacing is about as bad as DBZ in some areas, especially later in the series.
Skypeia and Impel Down immediately come to mind.

it really makes me wish that long-running anime series had a traditional 26 episode per year run.

edit: the manga of OP has really brisk pacing comparatively. as does DB. i guess this just proves that manga >>>> anime.
 

Anth0ny

Member
For the filler, you can thank

key_art_toei_animation.jpg


Read the manga instead.

However, the rushed, nonsensical at times dialogue is thanks to

Akira21.jpg


And there's no escaping that.

But that's why I love Dragon Ball.
 

Anth0ny

Member
Bad_Boy said:
I'll say this. Naruto fixes everything that was ever wrong with Dragonball, but keeps everything I loved about it.

That's an interesting way of spelling One Piece.

oops double post >_>
 
SomeDude said:
I remember hearing this back when DBZ first came to the US. Do you have any links to where he said this?

i can't be sure, but I believe i read it in one of the translated interview
trans.php
.

one of his original plan was to end it with oolong got pantsu from shenglong (when they collected all the dragon balls)

andymcc said:
i guess this just proves that manga >>>> anime.

that's what i do these days. anime is just too draggy (hello slam dunk) and all those filler eps.
 

Azar

Member
I wrote an article earlier this year that's kind of the opposite of the OP after I've finished every episode of the Dragon Ball TV show. There's a lot of stupid in DBZ, but the original series especially has some of the most imaginative, thorough and warm-hearted worldbuilding ever. That's something to cherish.
 
Azar said:
I wrote an article earlier this year that's kind of the opposite of the OP after I've finished every episode of the Dragon Ball TV show. There's a lot of stupid in DBZ, but the original series especially has some of the most imaginative, thorough and warm-hearted worldbuilding ever. That's something to cherish.

this.

my fav bits about dragon balls has always about goku searching the balls and fighting red ribbon.
 
Those are all things that are wrong with DBZ, yes.

Watched the show when I was 12 - was briefly obsessed. Then realize the vast majority of the action is two men grunting at eachother in a desert. Felt faint stirrings of homoeroticism and immediately buried it, along with the show.
 

Levyne

Banned
I leik Halo said:
I can't believe how downhill the show went after the cell saga. It's like he just didn't give a fuck anymore.


I agree, I mean, it was never a masterpiece, but it when from stupid fun to stupid stupid.
 

Kusagari

Member
I leik Halo said:
I can't believe how downhill the show went after the cell saga. It's like he just didn't give a fuck anymore.

He didn't. He wanted to end it with the Cell Saga and show Gohan surpassing Goku. Then all the Goku fans literally flooded him with mail bitching about Goku not finishing Cell. And SJ kept begging him to make more. So he made the Buu saga.
 

Levyne

Banned
Kusagari said:
He didn't. He wanted to end it with the Cell Saga and show Gohan surpassing Goku. Then all the Goku fans literally flooded him with mail bitching about Goku not finishing Cell. And SJ kept begging him to make more. So he made the Buu saga.


And then supposedly (citation needed) he wanted to pull the same thing again with "mystic/ultimate/z-sword-dified Gohan, and the same thing happened.
 

Mael

Member
People really have weird spelling here.
Remember people HxH is Hunter X Hunter not One Piece or Naruto.
 
Kusagari said:
He didn't. He wanted to end it with the Cell Saga and show Gohan surpassing Goku. Then all the Goku fans literally flooded him with mail bitching about Goku not finishing Cell. And SJ kept begging him to make more. So he made the Buu saga.

But that doesn't mean he had to screw up my favorite character, Vegeta. At the beginning of the show, Vegeta is shown as a smart tactical fighter, but by the end, he is seen as an idiot who constantly makes mistakes that always doom the other characters.
 

Kusagari

Member
I leik Halo said:
But that doesn't mean he had to screw up my favorite character, Vegeta. At the beginning of the show, Vegeta is shown as a smart tactical fighter, but by the end, he is seen as an idiot who constantly makes mistakes that always doom the other characters.

I've read that Toriyama was never really a fan of Vegeta and his sudden popularity. It kind of makes sense considering how much he screws him over.
 
Kusagari said:
He didn't. He wanted to end it with the Cell Saga and show Gohan surpassing Goku. Then all the Goku fans literally flooded him with mail bitching about Goku not finishing Cell. And SJ kept begging him to make more. So he made the Buu saga.
There's actually a guide to all the various rumors of when Toriyama "intended" to end the series: http://www.kanzentai.com/intended_end.php

As it turns out, the only time he ever actually planned on "ending" the series was with the very first arc of Dragonball, before it got superpopular. The rest of the arcs he probably never planned on going that far, but there's no indication outside of rumors that he ever wanted to outright end it.
 

Metal B

Member
Bowflex said:
Suddenly worried, Goku tells Gohan to finish Cell and not mess around. Funny because just a few episodes earlier Goku had the opportunity to kill Cell, but he did nothing and allowed Cell several minutes to reform. This is just one of several critical follies in the Cell saga alone (Vegeta allowing Cell to become perfect, Kuririn not killing Android 18, etc.). I will say that this particular folly is forgiven because it serves to set up a very climactic ending to the arc, as Goku’s selfless sacrifice wouldn’t have happened otherwise.

You did forget the best and probably only part of character development in this saga. Goku was not suddenly worried, Piccolo was horrified! He asked. how Goku could let his his son get in this situation on propose. He, the former enemy and demon, tells Goku, that his son is not a fighter like him and he really wishes for a father, who can protect him form such decisions and to kill someone. Piccolo reminds him, that Gohan is just a child. Then Goku realizes what a cruel plan he put his son into and how it changes Gohan all of a sudden. (Gohan began to play with Cell, like Vegeta would do).
This shows the big connection between Piccolo and Gohan and the poor one between Goku and his son. Sadly Toriyama never mad this an important element of his stories.
 

Kusagari

Member
EmCeeGramr said:
There's actually a guide to all the various rumors of when Toriyama "intended" to end the series: http://www.kanzentai.com/intended_end.php

As it turns out, the only time he ever actually planned on "ending" the series was with the very first arc of Dragonball, before it got superpopular. The rest of the arcs he probably never planned on going that far, but there's no indication outside of rumors that he ever wanted to.

I've never bought the series ending after the Frieza saga because of how much he set up Gohan. It seemed to me like everything was leading up to Gohan surpassing Goku as he did at the end of the Cell Saga.

The Buu Saga just feels so unnecessary that I'd like to believe he didn't intend to do it.
 

Skilotonn

xbot xbot xbot xbot xbot
Waiting for planet Namek to blow up is a passing of rite to DBZ, everyone had to go through it.

Be lucky that you didn't have to go through it back then when you had to wait a whole week for the next episode.
 
Kusagari said:
I've read that Toriyama was never really a fan of Vegeta and his sudden popularity. It kind of makes sense considering how much he screws him over.

I wonder how different the show would have turned out if Toriyama just ignored the fans, and did what he wanted instead.
 

Jarate

Banned
Im rewatching the entire series right now (American version with bruce falcouner music ftw!) and really here's where DBZ shines

+ Balls to the wall action, that is not only very cool looking but very fun at the same time. Also, for as long as the battles last, they are always fun to watch
+ The characters are incredibly charming and fun to watch. , even if toriyama seemingly forgets about Tien and Yamcha, you get cool characters like Vegeta, and future trunks
+Bruce Falcouner soundtrack and the dub are both incredible. It's one of the few animes that does the sound much much better then the japanese version does
+It's lighthearted and never really takes itself super seriously. All the character are silly, a lot of the events are unlikely, and many things going on in the show make no sense, but it's enjoyable
+It has the same effect Gurren Laqgann has, with it's "Holy shit how can they get stronger," and then the next episode you say the same thing
-Not only are the villains heavily flawed, but also the heroes, we don't get to see mary sue bull shit


Now for the negatives

-Forgets a ton of it's roots, and where it came from
-The universe set up by Dragonball isn't really expanded at all
- AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
-Super Saiyan 3 makes no fucking sense, and the different level of super saiiyans make no sense. The original Super Saiyan makes evolutionary sense as it allows you to be as powerful as if you were in your ape form, and be able to control yourself, something the saiyans kind of needed. Super Saiyan 2 (shouldn't be called that) makes sense for Gohan because he had that hidden talent all his life, and should've been the only saiyan to do it because he's a once in a lifetime fighter. Vegeta and goku going super saiyan 2 makes literally no sense as they really were just good fighters, not something special. And super saiyan 3 was stupid
-HOW DOES DR GERO MAKE ANDROIDS THAT ARE STRONGER THEN FRIEZA. Cell makes sense, he's made up of the best fighters in the universe, Androids were fucking stupid and im glad the villain changed when it did
- Garlic Jr Saga was one of the worst fillers ive ever seen in my entire life.
- Buu saga was awful
- Humans became useless, and so did piccolo essentially
- Trunks and Goten becoming super saiyans was so fucking stupid, don't even get me going on that
- Gohan got completely ruined by the Buu Saga
- Problems with contunuity


The way I see it is that Dragonball z is kind of like star wars, at first you had a guy who created a universe that was incredibly appealing to a large mass, and it was super succesful, but by the end of both persons foray, you could tell the main guy behind itt was getting sick of the universe and just wanted a cheap cash in. I would love to see a very talented writer start writing things in the dragonball universe, because it really is an incredibly charming universe, and that's what keeps us going back to it all these yearslater
 
Also, that whole Kamehameha comparison bit was not a good topic.

If not different in size and color, it's implied that higher PL means more potent Kamehameha.
 
The series ended at the finish of the Cell series for me. Buu arc was just completely nonsensical. I can't believe I even bothered to watch Dragon Ball GT as well. That was a hot mess too.. But really the only way to truly enjoy Dragon Ball Z is to read the manga instead of watching the shows.
 
I really wish they handled Vegeta better after the freeza saga. In the Cell saga he has two good moments (turning SSJ and beating the shit out of 19 and then going ultra saiyan and beating up semi perfect Cell), but beyond that he was just an angry troll talking shit to everyone. He should have played a more important role.

Buu saga was definitely shit though. I stopped watching after goku/majin vegeta. Really the only fun part was the very beginning with the world tournament stuff. Should have just kept that as a nice movie special with Goku coming back after seven years and everyone fighting together in the tournament.
 

apana

Member
Goku couldn't have finished Cell at that point, he had just teleported and shot a powerful Kamehameha wave at him. The rest of your stuff seems a little nitpicky, it is a show for kids. I have my own ideas for how it could have been improved, but you can do that with almost any fantasy series after the fact. It really depends on the individual's perspective.
 

Acerac

Banned
EmCeeGramr said:
There's actually a guide to all the various rumors of when Toriyama "intended" to end the series: http://www.kanzentai.com/intended_end.php

As it turns out, the only time he ever actually planned on "ending" the series was with the very first arc of Dragonball, before it got superpopular. The rest of the arcs he probably never planned on going that far, but there's no indication outside of rumors that he ever wanted to outright end it.
Holy shit, what a read.

I highly suggest those who are interested in the series check that out... if you have a chunk of time to read about useless DBZ facts.
 

DonasaurusRex

Online Ho Champ
Adamm said:
Isnt that the point? Goku had learned his lesson & told Gohan not to make the same mistake he did?

Apart from that i completely agree
I still love it though :p


yeah yeah in the end if it werent for Vegetta distracting cell he would've won. Only thing on my wish list for that show was brolly showing up and smashing every bs villain in the face in 5 mins he was ...wtf powerful took like 5 super saiyans and piccolo to beat his ass.
 

Josh7289

Member
Bowflex said:
Bulma: Gohan we have to go look for the the Dragon Balls.
Gohan: The Dragon Balls…?

That is just lazy, bad dialogue. Yes, you gauche idiot, the fucking dragon balls..that’s what she said.
I think this is a Japanese thing. He's asking what the dragon balls are. What's so different between this and "what are the dragon balls?" The way it's done in Japanese is just a bit less direct.
 
One thing I thought was cool about the show.

Frieza= rise of totalitarian dictators
Androids=rise of mechanized warfare
Cell=rise of biological warfare

Just like IRL amiright.
 
I leik Halo said:
But that doesn't mean he had to screw up my favorite character, Vegeta. At the beginning of the show, Vegeta is shown as a smart tactical fighter, but by the end, he is seen as an idiot who constantly makes mistakes that always doom the other characters.
Kusagari said:
I've read that Toriyama was never really a fan of Vegeta and his sudden popularity. It kind of makes sense considering how much he screws him over.
Yep. He flat out says Vegeta is his least favorite. Sad, as Vegeta is one of the more dimensional characters, personaility-wise.
 

Josh7289

Member
CrocMother said:
One thing I thought was cool about the show.

Frieza= rise of totalitarian dictators
Androids=rise of mechanized warfare
Cell=rise of biological warfare

Just like IRL amiright.
So that means next is magic warfare?

Fuck yeah!
 

Patapwn

Member
Worst thing about the show besides the insulting amount of filler IMO is the superman syndrome that it goes through. Which is to say, there comes a point where 'leveling up' has no meaning. The result is always the same punches with the same power blasts blah blah blah. And the bad guys are just super tough for no reason other than because they 'need to be' and the only way to beat them was to make your hair change in some way.

After the frieza saga, every character that wasn't a 'saiyan' became worthless. Well, aside from piccolo and tien for 1 second in the cell saga. After that it was game over unless you had golden hair... Made the show suck! (piccolo fanboie)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom