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[MomoPufflet]

I may cancel my PS3 collectors preorder over this and just wait for impressions. Really sad I have to do this :/

 

[Artanisix]

I swear to god, that lighting better be in the PC version or I am going to be pissed.

 

[pa22word]

Wow, was there a similar kerfuffle over Infinite prior to launch?

I wasn't following that game as closely as I am DS2. Playing through it right now and some areas are quite stunning, especially with all the wind/weather effects going on. Mild Infinite area spoilers:

Spoiler

like when you're on that huge bridge approaching Comstock House, looking over New York during the air raid, or generally looking around during the Vox war

.

I'd be curious to see how different it is now to the last build that was publicly shown, as playing it on PS3 I think it looks outstanding for a "last-gen" game.

Eh, not really, because 2k did a really good job of burying memory of what the game was shown to actually play like vs what they chopped together in a year when they semi-restarted development when Ferguson came in.

Here's the e3 2012 trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEBwKO4RFOU

As you can see, the game changed drastically from the semi-open, reactivity fueled Bio1-y levels featured in that build to the linear corridor shooter with the occasional arena sprinkled in we got in the final version.

 

[Papercuts]

Eh, not really, because 2k did a really good job of burying memory of what the game was shown to actually play like vs what they chopped together in a year when they semi-restarted development when Ferguson came in.

Here's the e3 2012 trailer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEBwKO4RFOU

As you can see, the game changed drastically from the semi-open, reactivity fueled Bio1-y levels featured in that build to the linear corridor shooter with the occasional arena sprinkled in we got in the final version.

Not to mention how much more natural and involved Elizabeth seemed here. After finishing Infinite I rewatched this video and was sad we didn't get that game...that is not the reaction someone should have.

 

[Comfort Jones]

What the actual fucking fuck?

This is incredibly maddening, It takes away from the gameplay and just looks plain bad. Didnt know the difference was this massive :/

Wasnt this whole torch mechanic a big deal?

You know, I said before that it's possible that the torch mechanic wasn't supposed to be a big deal in that specific area on launch. It seriously would not be shocking at all.

I definitely don't dig the new look but this is an overblown shit storm til people actually get through the game.

 

[CadetMahoney]

What the actual fucking fuck?

The dev said they changed the old game engine (phyreengine) to fix the framerate issue.

Now with new game engine they got dynamic lighting destroying the framerate and have to drop it completely (with other cuts) and DS2 ended looking even worse than Demons Souls and Dark Soul 1.

Yep, it's pretty much high level incompetence and clusterfuck.

Having second thoughts about this game.

 

[dark10x]

If it was a conscious design decision then there's no way we're seeing the lighting back on the PC version, even if it can handle it.

If it wasn't a conscious decision, and was mostly due to the lighting's performance on consoles, we might see it return on PC. That's depending on how comfortable From is having such a large difference (that honestly affects gameplay) between the PC version and the console ones.

tbqh I don't see it returning. The chance that it was purely technical and that From wouldn't mind the difference on PC is very small.

While it's possible that using lighting of that quality throughout the game resulted in performance issues, the various scenes demonstrated on PS3 had absolutely no framerate problems in the early build. It was 100% consistent 30 fps.

That part in the shots in particular was incredibly cool looking.

Of course, without the torch, you were basically screwed and the game had you switching back and forth between a torch and your weapon since you couldn't defeat enemies with the torch. Seemed like the kind of challenge you'd expect from the sequel to Dark Souls, though.

The other section that was shown off was much more open and also ran just fine. There was a building that you could go into with windows that, when opened, would allow light into the room making it possible to see. Without breaking open the windows you needed the torch.

To me it seemed as if they were focusing very heavily on the torch mechanic. Maybe they made a late decision to scrap that element of the design and cranked up the ambient brightness to compensate? Perhaps their gameplay decision has also impacted the visual quality as a result?

Now with new game engine they got dynamic lighting destroying the framerate and have to drop it completely (with other cuts) and DS2 ended looking even worse than Demons Souls and Dark Soul 1.

We don't know what other areas were like, of course, but there were never any framerate hitches in any of the demos shown prior to suggest that they were running into problems.

 

[pa22word]

Not to mention how much more natural and involved Elizabeth seemed here. After finishing Infinite I rewatched this video and was sad we didn't get that game...that is not the reaction someone should have.

Yeah, as someone who bought the game based on that "demo" I was pretty livid both at the final product and at reviewers who didn't even mention the fact that the game changed that drastically vs the the last public, longform gameplay demo that was shown.

But alas, enthusiast press....

 

[Grief.exe]

If it was a conscious design decision then there's no way we're seeing the lighting back on the PC version, even if it can handle it.

If it wasn't a conscious decision, and was mostly due to the lighting's performance on consoles, we might see it return on PC. That's depending on how comfortable From is having such a large difference (that honestly affects gameplay) between the PC version and the console ones.

tbqh I don't see it returning. The chance that it was purely technical and that From wouldn't mind the difference on PC is very small.

It depends on how far back in development they decided to make the change.

If the shadows only existed in that vertical slice, than we won't see them return for the PC version.

If they were removed last minute due to frantic performance concerns on console, than there is a possibility we may see their return.

I have my fingers crossed, the section I saw in the demo and the mirror knight boss fight were amazing and atmospheric.

While it's possible that using lighting of that quality throughout the game resulted in performance issues, the various scenes demonstrated on PS3 had absolutely no framerate problems in the early build. It was 100% consistent 30 fps.

That part in the shots in particular was incredibly cool looking.

Of course, without the torch, you were basically screwed and the game had you switching back and forth between a torch and your weapon since you couldn't defeat enemies with the torch. Seemed like the kind of challenge you'd expect from the sequel to Dark Souls, though.

The other section that was shown off was much more open and also ran just fine. There was a building that you could go into with windows that, when opened, would allow light into the room making it possible to see. Without breaking open the windows you needed the torch.

To me it seemed as if they were focusing very heavily on the torch mechanic. Maybe they made a late decision to scrap that element of the design and cranked up the ambient brightness to compensate? Perhaps their gameplay decision has also impacted the visual quality as a result?


We don't know what other areas were like, of course, but there were never any framerate hitches in any of the demos shown prior to suggest that they were running into problems.

In the console release of that same area, you can visibly see the frame rate tank as soon as the dynamic lighting comes onto the screen.

I wonder what happened?

 

[Ultryx]

Unfortunate for the consoles. I will gladly wait one more month for the PC release. XB360 and PS3 just don't have near enough power to keep a solid frame rate. There were issues with the original DS and they even mentioned that frame rate was important for the sequel. Here's to hoping it gets better! XB1 and PS4 should look good though (yes, I believe they're coming)!

 

[pa22word]

It depends on how far back in development they decided to make the change.

If the shadows only existed in that vertical slice, than we won't see them return for the PC version.

If they were removed last minute due to frantic performance concerns on console, than there is a possibility we may see their return.

I have my fingers crossed, the section I saw in the demo and the mirror knight boss fight were amazing and atmospheric.

Was the original dynamic real time lighting system in the beta? If not then I highly doubt we see it return. If it was there's probably a good chance it shows back up considering it was still in the design pipeline that late in development and the game wasn't delayed.

 

[dark10x]

In the console release of that same area, you can visibly see the frame rate tank as soon as the dynamic lighting comes onto the screen.

I wonder what happened?

That is really bizarre then.

Really makes me think they made some major changes late in development that have negatively impacted engine performance but still needed to release the game on time.

Unfortunate for the consoles. I will gladly wait one more month for the PC release. XB360 and PS3 just don't have near enough power to keep a solid frame rat

I think you will be disappointed then as I wouldn't expect upgrades in the PC version.

It was running fine on PS3 in the past with the full dynamic lighting system in play. Something else is going on.

 

[doofy102]

The other section that was shown off was much more open and also ran just fine. There was a building that you could go into with windows that, when opened, would allow light into the room making it possible to see. Without breaking open the windows you needed the torch.

Damn. It sounds like lighting would have added a nice nuance to bits of the game.

I wonder if there were any boss fights where light played a role?

 

[XANDER CAGE]

The torch mechanic - minus the parts where you need it to progress - feels entirely pointless with the lighting/visibility the way it is. Sconces are just there for the sake of it, as far as I can tell. At first I was assuming I'd have to manage my torch use since it's actually measured in the amount of burn time you have, but I'm currently sitting at something just under 40:00 of torch usage because I never need it.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

Well I didn't know the change was that drastic.

The first shot looks very atmospheric while the second looks drab in comparison, as it seems there is no sense of lighting at all.

I wonder if there will be some kind of backlash from this.

 

[NumberThree]

Does anybody know at what time the review embargo will be up? I'm interested to hear what reviewers have to say about the graphics (and specifically the atmosphere of the environments now that the lighting is duller/flatter).

Not sure about the review embargo, but Giant Bomb's video goes up 20 hours 35 minutes after this post (it's scheduled for 6 AM GMT+2). I would assume that's the same time as the reviews.

 

[pa22word]

It was running fine on PS3 in the past with the full dynamic lighting system in play. Something else is going on.

As I pointed out earlier, I think some of the later areas were suffering from some really severe performance issues and optimization wasn't cutting it to the point they were either going to have to totally redesign entire sections of the game....or cut the lighting system.

 

[ZeroX03]

I'm around 5 hours in the game and loving it. Even though I can confirm that;

-The frame rate is terrible, honestly hovers low to mid ~20s, rarely hits the 30FPS mark.
-Lighting is a massive downgrade.

Still can't get enough, godly game.

 

[Syf]

Really sucks to see this. Hopefully the PC version still has those effects. The difference is pretty huge. Looks like you'll lose a lot of the atmosphere without the original lighting.

 

[dark10x]

I'm around 5 hours in the game and loving it. Even though I can confirm that;

-The frame rate is terrible, honestly hovers low to mid ~20s, rarely hits the 30FPS mark.
-Lighting is a massive downgrade.

Still can't get enough, godly game.

Which version?

Really sucks to see this. Hopefully the PC version still has those effects. The difference is pretty huge. You lose a lot of the atmosphere without the original lighting.

People keep saying this and I really don't think it will. You're getting your hopes up.

 

[doofy102]

Well I didn't know the change was that drastic.

The first shot looks very atmospheric while the second looks drab in comparison, as it seems there is no sense of lighting at all.

Funnily enough this makes perfect sense, considering..

 

[Wolfe]

Really hope the PC version looks this good, I will be deeply saddened if it doesn't because that gif is gorgeous

If it's not in the final build then please at least have it be moddable to a state like this. I can't see something like this in a Souls game and then not have it, it's too good lol

Yeah I agree, makes for a great looking atmosphere and really helps sell the game world for me, now I want to see it in 3D.

While it's possible that using lighting of that quality throughout the game resulted in performance issues, the various scenes demonstrated on PS3 had absolutely no framerate problems in the early build. It was 100% consistent 30 fps.

That part in the shots in particular was incredibly cool looking.

Of course, without the torch, you were basically screwed and the game had you switching back and forth between a torch and your weapon since you couldn't defeat enemies with the torch. Seemed like the kind of challenge you'd expect from the sequel to Dark Souls, though.

The other section that was shown off was much more open and also ran just fine. There was a building that you could go into with windows that, when opened, would allow light into the room making it possible to see. Without breaking open the windows you needed the torch.

To me it seemed as if they were focusing very heavily on the torch mechanic. Maybe they made a late decision to scrap that element of the design and cranked up the ambient brightness to compensate? Perhaps their gameplay decision has also impacted the visual quality as a result?

We don't know what other areas were like, of course, but there were never any framerate hitches in any of the demos shown prior to suggest that they were running into problems.

Reading this got me thinking, if it's possible they did this even partially due to feedback about it being too dark, it would be nice if they saw all of this critique too and worked towards having it at least be an option you can choose before starting a character or something. Assuming it didn't cause large perf issues I guess, but even then I'd still like to try it out.

 

[gamerforever]

Must admit all this talk of downgrades has lowered my excitement for this and Watchdogs. This in particular looked fantastic in the beta for PS3, and am unsure what has happened since?

I guess those 'horrible' official screenshots really were telling the truth. Tempted to wait 6 months + for the PS4 version, which is bound to be released, with a port being quite simple to achieve.

 

[ZeroX03]

Which version?


People keep saying this and I really don't think it will. You're getting your hopes up.

PS3 version. Haven't tested the 360 version yet, can't comment on that.

 

[rockman zx]

I'm around 5 hours in the game and loving it. Even though I can confirm that;

-The frame rate is terrible, honestly hovers low to mid ~20s, rarely hits the 30FPS mark.
-Lighting is a massive downgrade.

Still can't get enough, godly game.

Even with the downgrade the game is not stable?, WTF, this game is not that graphic heavy, is FROM a terrible developer from the tech point of view?.

 

[Syf]

People keep saying this and I really don't think it will. You're getting your hopes up.

There's a chance is what I'm saying. If they couldn't optimize the lighting to perform well on consoles then sure, they'd have to remove it, but it seems like it'd be unnecessary to remove the option of advanced lighting from the PC version altogether when people can just adjust their own settings if they can't run it. But then maybe they had other reasons for doing so. I guess we'll see.

 

[ZeroX03]

Even with the downgrade the game is not stable?, WTF, this game is not that graphic heavy, is FROM a terrible developer from the tech point of view?.

When you're in corridors where absolutely NOTHING is happening, it reverts back to 30fps. But once you're out in the open again, prepare for the drops.

 

[doofy102]

Even with the downgrade the game is not stable?, WTF, this game is not that graphic heavy, is FROM a terrible developer from the tech point of view?.

They are. But most of the fans let Blighttown slide. If anything the low frame rate of Blight Town is part of that place's identity now, lol. This lighting stuff is different - it actually removes gameplay AND atmosphere.. At least Blight Town still was a moody place.

 

[Shinjica]

I'm around 5 hours in the game and loving it. Even though I can confirm that;

-The frame rate is terrible, honestly hovers low to mid ~20s, rarely hits the 30FPS mark.
-Lighting is a massive downgrade.

Still can't get enough, godly game.

How they cannot keep 30FPS is beyond my immagination

 

[pa22word]

Even with the downgrade the game is not stable?, WTF, this game is not that graphic heavy, is FROM a terrible developer from the tech point of view?.

New engine that was obviously designed for next gen and pcs in mind and backported to ps360 is the probable culprit here.

 

[Shinta]

Even with the downgrade the game is not stable?, WTF, this game is not that graphic heavy, is FROM a terrible developer from the tech point of view?.

They haven't ever really been stellar in this area, and these games are made pretty rapidly with not gigantic teams.

It is what it is. I don't have a gaming PC so the decision is easy as hell for me. DS2 at all is better than none, so I'm still getting it. If they come out with a PS4 version down the line, I'll just wait until it gets super cheap. No way am I waiting 6-12 months to play this game.

 

[Visceir]

People keep saying this and I really don't think it will. You're getting your hopes up.

That would be rather amusing after all the "we're gonna take our time with the PC version to make sure it's proper!" comments from the developers.

 

[dark10x]

When you're in corridors where absolutely NOTHING is happening, it reverts back to 30fps. But once you're out in the open again, prepare for the drops.

That seems much worse than the first Dark Souls which really didn't dip that often.

 

[UnObtainium17]

I think the downgrade is to improve performance. But if I put on my tin hat, I say it's also to give us reasons to double dip for next gen versions. So they could be like "hey look how vastly improved the visuals is, it's totally worth $xx Even if it's the same game!".

Though if this game will look / perform like the beta, then I could probably deal with it. I'm almost certain I will sell my game w/in two months. Next gen version is definitely coming. Namco likes money.

 

[EatinOlives]

New engine that was obviously designed for next gen and pcs in mind and backported to ps360 is the probable culprit here.

I'm not so sure. Even Demon's Souls had framerate problems and is far simpler graphically than even Dark Souls 1, and only had to program for the PS3.

I think framerate just isn't their forte at all. I'd forgive it because a PC can muscle through a poor console framerate but the lighting is what really worries me.

 

[ZeroX03]

That seems much worse than the first Dark Souls which really didn't dip that often.

Definitely feels that way. For me, Demons Souls was definitely the most stable in terms of performance.

 

[rac]

I swear to god, that lighting better be in the PC version or I am going to be pissed.

I guess anything is possible since I don't think anyone has even seen the game running on a PC, but I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[MomoPufflet]

I felt kind of knee-jerk cancelling my preorder on such an anticipated game, but at the same time I just find this shit so insulting and repetitive. I'll just wait for a deep price drop later on. The game is dead to me until then unless we're all way off about this when it comes out.

 

[mickcenary]

Definitely feels that way. For me, Demons Souls was definitely the most stable in terms of performance.

Demon's was a lot worse looking than Dark, though. Textures, animations, etc.

BUT HEY, I guess that means that when the graphics are worse, the performance is better!

Right?

 

[Shinjica]

That would be rather amusing after all the "we're gonna take our time with the PC version to make sure it's proper!" comments from the developers.

They say 30fps and they didnt achieve that.

PC version later is clearly a marketing decision, not for polishing.

 

[Grinchy]

I'm not dumping my preorder but I'm keeping the option open of losing $10 by reselling it on Amazon. If the black armor edition really sells out rigbt away then maybe it'll be easy to recoup the $60.

I'd have to be pretty disappointed with it to do this, but the comparison videos are heart-breaking.

 

[UnObtainium17]

I felt kind of knee-jerk cancelling my preorder on such an anticipated game, but at the same time I just find this shit so insulting and repetitive. I'll just wait for a deep sale later on. The game is dead to me until then unless we're all way off about this when it comes out.

I think what I'm gonna do is read a shit ton of performance analysis the morning reviews start rolling in. Then decide whether to pick up my game or not based on how the game performs on ps3. If it's worse than dark souls then I might just wait for big sale or next gen versions.

Edit: or resale my BA Edition. If I can sell the disc only for 45$ to 50$ then it's also fine by me, at least I get to keep the steelbook and OST, hehe.

 

[JawzPause]

Pretty sure PC version will still look like that.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see...

 

[Chance Hale]

I bought the CE which was around 130 with tax so hopefully the game is good at least :/ Just really bummed more than anything else that they've been so dishonest about the changes. Even more so when I'm able to imagine how it could look like.

 

[Visceir]

They say 30fps and they didnt achieve that.

PC version later is clearly a marketing decision, not for polishing.

Obviously, but the hope still remains that the marketing decision (partially) came from the PC version looking waay better because of the lighting. It just seems really dumb to scrap it all together after having already produced it.

 

[rac]

Obviously, but the hope still remains that the marketing decision (partially) came from the PC version looking waay better because of the lighting. It just seems really dumb to scrap it all together after having already produced it.

The only way I can see that happening is if they announce a PS4/XB1 version as the PC version is released.

 

[Chance Hale]

If nothing else people can use sweetfx with the PC version to supplement in lovely black crushing.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Lol different or changed area, wooden steps in first shot, stone steps in second.

Good observation.

 

[TheCongressman1]

PC version won't be any better, I bet. I am really bummed about all of this.

Shouldn't they have noticed earlier in development if the new lighting would cause issues? How is it that they get right up until launch, then completely change it? There's something weird going on.

 

[ezekial45]

EDIT: wrong thread.