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Denuvo DRM degrades ssd block memory ?

luca_29_bg

Member
Aug 30, 2006
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italy
i have already posted this on dragon age inquisition denuvo thread but it's better a new specific thread for this!

"Resource monitors for RAM and CPU consumption numbers, memory viewer for trying to figure out what makes it tick and track address issues, SSD analysis tools for those delicious dead blocks and data tracking
Wanna know average number of times parts of LotF exe code are fcked around between RAM and HDD in the span of one hour? 150000 copy/write iterations. That's about 10000 times more than usual. DRM constantly decrypts the game code into the memory and encrypts it back. This is the most bullshit usage of encryption software I've ever stumbled upon. And even though code chunks are quite small(couple of kilobytes per go at worst), they are all stored in one memory block. And playing the game for 4-8 hours(depends on SSD quality) means that you can say goodbye to that block."

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/the-dragon-age-inquisition-thread-ride-the-bull.75304/page-355#post-3599880

it's true ?
 

gngf123

Member
Jan 27, 2013
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I'm going to wait on further sources. Already talks of more measurements being done by the looks of things.

If true, that is complete BS. Considering what the Denuvo guys have worked on in the past, it wouldn't even surprise me.
 
Feb 24, 2008
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I googled up a bit the quote... and it's in three or four different forums (technically, five with gaf now :p), but in all of them is an unsourced quote, no one says or link the real source of the quote.
 

Wallach

Member
Jun 26, 2008
29,846
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yeah it's just random forum poster but if it's true it's terrible...on so many levels!
There is no evidence to this post, we were discussing it briefly in the DA:I thread. On an SSD I figure the write cache alone (besides any further firmware wear management) would prevent this from being an issue, but it doesn't strike me as that believable to begin with.
 

Nzyme32

Member
May 23, 2013
18,286
1
0
i have already posted this on dragon age inquisition denuvo thread but it's better a new specific thread for this!

"Resource monitors for RAM and CPU consumption numbers, memory viewer for trying to figure out what makes it tick and track address issues, SSD analysis tools for those delicious dead blocks and data tracking
Wanna know average number of times parts of LotF exe code are fcked around between RAM and HDD in the span of one hour? 150000 copy/write iterations. That's about 10000 times more than usual. DRM constantly decrypts the game code into the memory and encrypts it back. This is the most bullshit usage of encryption software I've ever stumbled upon. And even though code chunks are quite small(couple of kilobytes per go at worst), they are all stored in one memory block. And playing the game for 4-8 hours(depends on SSD quality) means that you can say goodbye to that block."

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/the-dragon-age-inquisition-thread-ride-the-bull.75304/page-355#post-3599880

it's true ?
I'm not believing it. There are no sources or data to show. Just quotes sourced from some nebulous nothing. Give me sources, data and references
 

Timeaisis

Member
May 27, 2011
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I can't imagine this being true. Having a regular non-solid state harddrive would make the game unplayable with the amount of read/writes.
 

Durante

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Oct 1, 2006
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peter.metaclassofnil.com
Even if the way the software operates were actually true (and I doubt even that), this guy has no idea how modern SSDs work.

Just because it's the same file in software doesn't mean it will be stored in the same block in hardware after each write.
 

Pocky4Th3Win

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Dec 3, 2013
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www.rage3d.com
stolen from a post on my primary forum.

ok, two key components of that talk on read/write hard drive to ram talk above.

It's less than ten percent extra work... and that's only if 150000 was the max, which its not. The statement of "more than usual" is a measure of average. Meaning other games they work above the average probably hit that level or higher without the drm, or with other drm. While more hard drive work is a bad thing in general, there is nothing in this to cause any alarm.

Now, had they said 100000 and not 10000 more... then we'd have a problem.
 

UncleSporky

Member
Sep 22, 2006
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Is DRM less intrusive than it used to be? Like, does it limit itself to the game software?

I remember SecuROM and/or others were literally rootkits that screwed over your computer itself, not removable, collecting and reporting information about your system etc.
 

ArynCrinn

Banned
Jul 9, 2011
2,155
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Suffolk, VA
Word is in the "underground" is that Denuvo has already been successfully 100% cracked for Lords of the Fallen, and will be releasing/announced in the next few days. So yeah, not much to worry about now that the DRM has been destroyed yet again by crackers = no further incentive to use it.

Plus, there's further speculation and even proof that it does in a way impede performance overall.

But basically, word is it was super easy to crack within 48 hours of the two Russians who did it, and it's a simple copy/replace .exe file procedure to eliminate it.
 
Jul 22, 2007
20,049
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Word is in the "underground" is that Denuvo has already been successfully 100% cracked for Lords of the Fallen, and will be releasing/announced in the next few days. So yeah, not much to worry about now that the DRM has been destroyed yet again by crackers = no further incentive to use it.

Plus, there's further speculation and even proof that it does in a way impede performance overall.

But basically, word is it was super easy to crack within 48 hours of the two Russians who did it, and it's a simple copy/replace .exe file procedure to eliminate it.
so youre telling me that DRM will only serve to annoy and bother actual paying customers instead of the pirates, who probably weren't going to buy the game anyhow?

That's gotta be a first, right?
 

ArynCrinn

Banned
Jul 9, 2011
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so youre telling me that DRM will only serve to annoy and bother actual paying customers instead of the pirates, who probably weren't going to buy the game anyhow?

That's gotta be a first, right?
Some thing never change, I suppose. :p

But, there's actually quite a lot of things the cracking/hacking scene has done in very closed exclusive invite-only circles, that are not "public knowledge", yet. Which of course includes current gen console hacking which is now as easy as softmodding a Wii, basically the equivalent of what would be a "software JTAG". Which was also the case even back on 360 when MS decided to use a update to "flash" the 360 firmware, which gave hackers all they needed to make it so you could simply plug in a USB drive to flash your firmware, because they now knew MS's public/private keys. But that info was also never made public, same is/was true of the PS3.

Reason to keep most of this stuff exclusive to a small minority is that it will remain unfixable since the parent company knows nothing about it, plus only a tiny subset even have access to it. I suppose once a way to hack the PS4/Xbone permenantly with no way for any fix to be forced it'll be released. No idea why they aren't releasing the Wii U/3DS tools/software yet.... :\
 
Feb 24, 2008
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Is DRM less intrusive than it used to be? Like, does it limit itself to the game software?

I remember SecuROM and/or others were literally rootkits that screwed over your computer itself, not removable, collecting and reporting information about your system etc.
It's supposed to be an exe encryption method (like Steam drm uses), not a service that installs on the computer, nor an online drm, nor an activation limit system.
 

luca_29_bg

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Aug 30, 2006
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Some thing never change, I suppose. :p

But, there's actually quite a lot of things the cracking/hacking scene has done in very closed exclusive invite-only circles, that are not "public knowledge", yet. Which of course includes current gen console hacking which is now as easy as softmodding a Wii, basically the equivalent of what would be a "software JTAG". Which was also the case even back on 360 when MS decided to use a update to "flash" the 360 firmware, which gave hackers all they needed to make it so you could simply plug in a USB drive to flash your firmware, because they now knew MS's public/private keys. But that info was also never made public, same is/was true of the PS3.

Reason to keep most of this stuff exclusive to a small minority is that it will remain unfixable since the parent company knows nothing about it, plus only a tiny subset even have access to it. I suppose once a way to hack the PS4/Xbone permenantly with no way for any fix to be forced it'll be released. No idea why they aren't releasing the Wii U/3DS tools/software yet.... :\
wait....ps4 is hacked ? Or i understand bad your words ?
 

ymgve

Member
Sep 5, 2005
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Does it actually require rewriting the executable on disk? Should be easy to verify - just set the executable to read-only (or failing that, do more hardcore ACL changes) and see if the game fails.
 
Feb 4, 2013
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All of us have been eagerly awaiting the launch of Dragon Age: Inquisition and it is common knowledge that it uses the new DRM Denuvo that has remained uncracked till now. This is the same DRM also used in games like FIFA 15 and Lords Of The Fallen. But what is not common knowledge is that the DRM might be causing hefty amounts of damage to your SSD(Even HDD) when you run a game with the said DRM. First uncovered by people at rpgcodex.net (thread now removed), and then picked up by /r/pcmasterrace, the original poster makes revelations that might not be good news for users:

Wanna know average number of times parts of LotF exe code are fcked around between RAM and HDD in the span of one hour? 150000 copy/write iterations. That’s about 10000 times more than usual. DRM constantly decrypts the game code into the memory and encrypts it back.

Further adding on, the poster says:

You might want to switch over to your hard disk drive with spinning iron plates instead of sacrificing the life of your solid state drive too early. I am waiting for the first complaints and lawsuits due to destroyed hardware caused by Denuvo.

It is also revealed later in the post that:

The game’s read\write operations per 40 minutes resulted in 30 GB of data processed. The number of operations done is insane. SSD’s wear level hasn’t changed though, however, the load is EXTREMELY high, so after, say, 100 hours of gameplay memory blocks will definitely start to wear down.

The below image also reveals the amount of read/writes performs along with various other information as well:


http://asidcast.com/index.php/2014/11/new-drm-denuvo-might-damaging-ssd/
 

Xyber

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Aug 24, 2011
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But hasn't multiple people said that there is something wrong with those numbers in that screenshot? Having that much write data compared to read on the SSD is not normal. Seems like he has a page file on it writing data all the time.
 
Jun 26, 2012
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I'm going to continue to treat this as bogus until a site has some figures they're willing to stand behind rather than some spurious "this forum poster says" evidence. And shame on any site that posts it as news without making any effort to see if it's true or not.
 

Fragamemnon

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Jun 7, 2004
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Right now the main sources of this are from /r/pcmasterrace and RPGCodex? Yeah, not buying it from those sources.

Given that this keeps going around I'm sure the PC hardware website scene will find out real soon if there is an actual problem.
 

Jonnax

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Jun 23, 2013
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This sounds quite farfetched. what would happen to a mechanical hard drive? You'd provably hear it have a heart attack with that kind of usage.
 

Alasfree

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Jul 12, 2013
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Right now the main sources of this are from /r/pcmasterrace and RPGCodex? Yeah, not buying it from those sources.

Given that this keeps going around I'm sure the PC hardware website scene will find out real soon if there is an actual problem.
Not even, everyone is sourcing each other so no has actual data. Everything is based on that image that was posted originally here.
Unless someone does test this game properly i'll just assume this is fear mongering.
 

garath

Member
May 8, 2007
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Jeez. That pic is making its rounds. The guy posted it in the Dragon Age PC performance thread then never spoke of it again despite numerous questions like "Why do you have so many damn writes in the first place". According to his pic, his system averages almost 10gigs of writes an hour. Something is amiss.

Outside of that single suspect pic, there isn't another shred of evidence of destroying hard drive blocks.

GAF->Internet->GAF
 

Felix Lighter

Member
Oct 2, 2007
20,750
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Jeez. That pic is making its rounds. The guy posted it in the Dragon Age PC performance thread then never spoke of it again despite numerous questions like "Why do you have so many damn writes in the first place". According to his pic, his system averages almost 10gigs of writes an hour. Something is amiss.

Outside of that single suspect pic, there isn't another shred of evidence of destroying hard drive blocks.

GAF->Internet->GAF
Sounds like ShadowPlay.
 

Trogdor1123

Member
Mar 2, 2012
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700
Some thing never change, I suppose. :p

But, there's actually quite a lot of things the cracking/hacking scene has done in very closed exclusive invite-only circles, that are not "public knowledge", yet. Which of course includes current gen console hacking which is now as easy as softmodding a Wii, basically the equivalent of what would be a "software JTAG". Which was also the case even back on 360 when MS decided to use a update to "flash" the 360 firmware, which gave hackers all they needed to make it so you could simply plug in a USB drive to flash your firmware, because they now knew MS's public/private keys. But that info was also never made public, same is/was true of the PS3.

Reason to keep most of this stuff exclusive to a small minority is that it will remain unfixable since the parent company knows nothing about it, plus only a tiny subset even have access to it. I suppose once a way to hack the PS4/Xbone permenantly with no way for any fix to be forced it'll be released. No idea why they aren't releasing the Wii U/3DS tools/software yet.... :\
I don't know... that sounds a bit like wishful thinking or maybe I don't understand what you are saying (I think that is more than likely what is happening). Wouldn't something like that get out.
 

shacklesmcgee

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Oct 8, 2013
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PC performance thread for DAI said this was nonsense.
it is notorious nonsense of the most bullshit degree, and it's sad that there are this many people believing it

Right now the main sources of this are from /r/pcmasterrace and RPGCodex? Yeah, not buying it from those sources.

Given that this keeps going around I'm sure the PC hardware website scene will find out real soon if there is an actual problem.
lol GAF is the source

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=139256533&postcount=1531