Support NeoGAF

[texhnolyze]

well done, miller.skippins

That's.. not really a hard guess to make.

 

[Skronk]

But will the game be fun this time? And have a story?

 

[Tomeru]

I don't think people understand what game engines are when they say it's the same engine or it's a brand new engine. I feel like an updated/modified engine will get looked upon as a brand new if it provides a graphical boost (idtech 5- idtech 6) but at the same time an updated engine will get looked upon as "legacy crap" even it it looks significantly better but ends up having back end performance problems (idtech 5- Void) and automatically blame the old engine for problems even if that's not the case.

Destiny 2 is using a new engine for all intent and purpose, a renderer is just a part of the engine it's not the ONLY part. We know that the biggest issue with the old engine was the content creator which is why they have this new engine now for faster content creation and deployment. Just because it's built on top of older engine does not make it "restrictive". Your darling Frostbite engine goes back to Frostbite 1 days as well same for CryEngine that goes back to CE2. It's always an iterative development and again, the renderer is only part of an engine and they've updated it as well. It's pure nonsense to claim there are no upgrades when I can clearly see Bokeh DoF, GPU particles, materials, proper PBR and lighting upgrades compared to Destiny 1.


Resolution only affects GPU for the most part. Using reconstruction from a lower resolution won't magically up your framerate if your game is CPU bound. Going to 60 puts additional load on CPU as is but if your game is already heavy on the CPU then there's no chance for that to happen. And reconstruction only provides roughly around 30% performance boost over native.

You may be right. However, if were are talking about reason why game A is not 60fps, and game B is on the same hardware, and considering they are fairly similar in scope (or even less then some that offer better frames), then what could the reasons be?

 

[polyh3dron]

Small clip of offscreen PC gameplay in this IGN video:

https://youtu.be/NkQVTkulYGg

A 30 FPS video.. ugh.

 

[Neolombax]

But will the game be fun this time? And have a story?

Was the game not fun before? And story was the first few things they emphasized that would be improved upon during their gameplay reveal. Guess we'd have to wait for Sep to find out if this is true.

 

[DonkeyKong]

Someone correct me if wrong but don't pc - xbox cross play title such as Gears 4 happily play together at different frame rates or are they both locked at 60fps?

Assuming the PC version of cross play titles isn't locked to the same as console then surely the argument that PS4/Pro/XB1/Scorpio have to be locked to the same fps isn't valid... just thinking out loud..

 

[Dervius]

Someone correct me if wrong but don't pc - xbox cross play title such as Gears 4 happily play together at different frame rates or are they both locked at 60fps?

Assuming the PC version of cross play titles isn't locked to the same as console then surely the argument that PS4/Pro/XB1/Scorpio have to be locked to the same fps isn't valid... just thinking out loud..

Gears 4 is 60 fps in MP on both platforms. Not sure I know of a cross play title where that isn't the case.

 

[Carn82]

You may be right. However, if were are talking about reason why game A is not 60fps, and game B is on the same hardware, and considering they are fairly similar in scope (or even less then some that offer better frames), then what could the reasons be?

I think things are pretty clear. It's a choice. The game runs at a locked 30FPS on consoles, most likely because they are CPU bound (Jaguar is still a POS), and possibly also because of parity 'agreements'. Sure, they could run it unlocked, but then it might fluctuate between 30 to who knows, 50. I personally hoped that Bungie put some effort in some kind of dynamic resolution scaling to get things to 60 FPS, but i'd rather have them improve on their content iteration pipeline. Also, devs -rarely- make brand new engines. They might slap new numbers on them, but some of the modern engines still have code inside it that might be over a decade old. In case of Bungie's Tiger engine; it's pretty modular and it still has Blam (Halo) stuff in it.

 

[paperspace]

Gears 4 is 60 fps in MP on both platforms. Not sure I know of a cross play title where that isn't the case.

I'm pretty sure PC isn't locked to 60fps in MP.

 

[Tomeru]

I think things are pretty clear. It's a choice. The game runs at a locked 30FPS on consoles, most likely because they are CPU bound (Jaguar is still a POS), and possibly also because of parity 'agreements'. Sure, they could run it unlocked, but then it might fluctuate between 30 to who knows, 50. I personally hoped that Bungie put some effort in some kind of dynamic resolution scaling to get things to 60 FPS, but i'd rather have them improve on their content iteration pipeline. Also, devs -rarely- make brand new engines. They might slap new numbers on them, but some of the modern engines still have code inside it that might be over a decade old. In case of Bungie's Tiger engine; it's pretty modular and it still has Blam (Halo) stuff in it.

I'm not arguing that it's their choice because that is the engine they use (I like what I'm seeing). I'm arguing whether using a different engine or not would help the game achieve 60frames with the same visual fidelity they have now (again, considering there are similar games in scope that do achieve 60frames on the same hardware).

 

[FeD.nL]

A 30 FPS video.. ugh.

Still the FOV looks so much more comfortable than the footage of the console version.

 

[SmoothRunningGun]

Sorry but there's no reason why this game can't be 60fps on pro.

Watch the ign video. Luke Smith explains why it can't be 60 (weak cpu in consoles). Don't expect 60 on Scorpio either (similar cpu).

Here's a link to the video at the point where they discuss this: https://youtu.be/wFPgCzIjTEc?t=1h13m14s

 

[texhnolyze]

Watch the ign video. Luke Smith explains why it can't be 60 (weak cpu in consoles). Don't expect 60 on Scorpio either (similar cpu).

That needs to be in OP, or maybe a new thread.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Very disappointing.
It would've probably been my next big shooter I put hundreds of hours in, but at 30FPS I'll take a closer at the competition this year.
If Battlefront 2 looks promising regarding its content I'll go with that one.

 

[Tomeru]

Very disappointing.
It would've probably been my next big shooter I put hundreds of hours in, but at 30FPS I'll take a closer at the competition this year.
If Battlefront 2 looks promising regarding its content I'll go with that one.

There is no competition though... I don't see how BF2 can compete (different features and such).

 

[Carn82]

I'm not arguing that it's their choice because that is the engine they use (I like what I'm seeing). I'm arguing whether using a different engine or not would help the game achieve 60frames with the same visual fidelity they have now (again, considering there are similar games in scope that do achieve 60frames on the same hardware).

Only way I can see that happening is if they redesigned the game from the ground up if they would use a 'different engine'. The engine is just a part of the whole chain. The benefits of using your home-build technology is that you have total control. If they would have used something like Unreal, they might loose some of the typical Bungie-gameplay, and/or would run into other limiting factors that might not work with their vision of the game. (and to be honest. there are very few games 'similar in scope', actually).

Some fun reading:
Destiny's 'shared world' networking: http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1022247/Shared-World-Shooter-Destiny-s
Engine postmortem: http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1022106/Lessons-from-the-Core-Engine

 

[opricnik]

Gears 4 is 60 fps in MP on both platforms. Not sure I know of a cross play title where that isn't the case.

There is not such a as thing 60 fps on both platforms

on PC there are more then people who play those games below 60 fps

 

[Tomeru]

Only way I can see that happening is if they redesigned the game from the ground up if they would use a 'different engine'. The engine is just a part of the whole chain. The benefits of using your home-build technology is that you have total control. If they would have used something like Unreal, they might lose some of the typical Bungie-gameplay, and/or would run into other limiting factors that might not work with their vision of the game. (and to be honest. there are very few games 'similar in scope', actually).

Some fun reading:
Destiny's 'shared world' networking: http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1022247/Shared-World-Shooter-Destiny-s
Engine postmortem: http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1022106/Lessons-from-the-Core-Engine

Im not against rebuilding it from the grounds up. I guess the question is would they wager their gameplay on "might" or not. And we have our answer. My point though was we could've gotten a 60fps Destiny 2. In what form is another discussion.

 

[Carn82]

My point though was we could've gotten a 60fps Destiny 2. In what form is another discussion.

Oh, I totally agree with that. I at least hope that console gets some FoV settings and such, and hoped they would push for 60fps (even if that might be Crucible only, because for competitive PvP it really changes a lot). But then I thought about the 600+ hours I spend playing Destiny 1 and having fun for most of the time; I can live with a shinier 30fps Destiny 2 for the next few years.

 

[Tajaz2426]

There is not such a as thing 60 fps on both platforms

on PC there are more then people who play those games below 60 fps

I believe that when people think about PC players, they assume everyone has a 1080.

 

[The Hamburglar]

I can understand PS4Pro but i am shock Scorpio will get held back too. Sucks for the console gamers I guess

Lmao because the Scorpio is x2 more powerful than the pro right? Jesus

 

[Dreathlock]

Ps4 is not even an option for me anymore. If they intentionally delay the pc version for too long i will skip the game completely.

Its just a shame that they are gimping their own game this much. No reason to not have 60 fps on consoles.

 

[Tomeru]

Oh, I totally agree with that. I at least hope that console gets some FoV settings and such, and hoped they would push for 60fps (even if that might be Crucible only, because for competitive PvP it really changes a lot). But then I thought about the 600+ hours I spend playing Destiny 1 and having fun for most of the time; I can live with a shinier 30fps Destiny 2 for the next few years.

Oh I know I will. I'm hyped af.

 

[Dervius]

There is not such a as thing 60 fps on both platforms

on PC there are more then people who play those games below 60 fps

I'm pretty sure PC isn't locked to 60fps in MP.

Fair enough, did not know that.

The games I've played using crossplay seem to generally be 60 fps on consoles. Perhaps with a view to being at least comparable to some of the higher frame rates possible on PC.

I hadn't considered the lower framerates also possible.

 

[Ghazi]

I believe that when people think about PC players, they assume everyone has a 1080.

You don't need a 1080 to play most games at 60fps, though...

 

[Dictator93]

Someone correct me if wrong but don't pc - xbox cross play title such as Gears 4 happily play together at different frame rates or are they both locked at 60fps?

Assuming the PC version of cross play titles isn't locked to the same as console then surely the argument that PS4/Pro/XB1/Scorpio have to be locked to the same fps isn't valid... just thinking out loud..

I habe played against console players in gears od war miltiplayer where I am running at 120hz and they are at 60.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

There is no competition though... I don't see how BF2 can compete (different features and such).

Its not like I am interested in a particularly type of shooter. I just want a frist person shooter with enough content to keep me busy.
When Destiny 1 came out I played that for hundreds of hours, last year I played BF1 for hundreds of hours.
The thing is just that I don't have time for two such games at the same time.

 

[cripterion]

So we sure this is getting delayed on pc now?

 

[EVA UNIT 01]

Someone correct me if wrong but don't pc - xbox cross play title such as Gears 4 happily play together at different frame rates or are they both locked at 60fps?

Assuming the PC version of cross play titles isn't locked to the same as console then surely the argument that PS4/Pro/XB1/Scorpio have to be locked to the same fps isn't valid... just thinking out loud..

Gears on x1 is 60fps.
I play on pc and average 110fps

 

[Tecnniqe]

So we sure this is getting delayed on pc now?

It may, it may not. They said they'd give a date in the coming weeks so until they actually give a date it's kinda up in the air.

 

[cripterion]

It may, it may not. They said they'd give a date in the coming weeks so until they actually give a date it's kinda up in the air.

Would be nice if they delayed it on pc and include 1 & 2 as a package

Shhhh now, don't say anything. Just dreams...

 

[Hux1ey]

Fair enough, did not know that.

The games I've played using crossplay seem to generally be 60 fps on consoles. Perhaps with a view to being at least comparable to some of the higher frame rates possible on PC.

I hadn't considered the lower framerates also possible.

And higher.

 

[Tecnniqe]

Would be nice if they delayed it on pc and include 1 & 2 as a package

Shhhh now, don't say anything. Just dreams...

 

[amdb00mer]

Including Scorpio?

I bet it gets freesync and 60fps.

I bet so as well, but they won't heavily advertise it due to the marketing deal with Sony. All this is good, but I still have a grudge about the abandoned loot from Destiny 1.

Hey Bungie, since we can't carry are loot over, how about allowing us as a one time deal to transfer the value of the loot that to Destiny 2? I think that's a fair trade off.

10 year life cycle with forward character progression my butt...

 

[BroodShadow]

You just pointed out to them using an aging engine, and that somehow has nothing to do with being able/not being able to achieve 60 with all bells and whistles? And you call my post bullshit?

There are many games out there that offer better visual quality and 60 frames while showing more stuff on screen than Destiny. So it's either Bungie are incompetent, or their engine is holding them back. It's one of the two, and nothing with priorities. Their engine is the major problem.

I'm sorry but i just don't think it's either of these things you claim cod has been updating the same engine and does that make it ageing? I don't think most people would say so, yea I do think your post is bullshit sorry.

Now i'm not saying the engine is perfect or anything like that but giving how much stuff can end up on screen they probably just wanted to avoid what happens in BF1 on console where the game rarely hits 60fps in conquest and can dip all the way down to 30fps.

If you played destiny for a good chunk of time you would know that a lot of enemies and effects are on screen at the same time so it's fair to say that would dip the framerate since it does in most of the "60" fps games on console right now.

Have you ever seen BO3 framerate during the SP it can dip super bad and D1 had way more on screen than that it just looked worse and had a lower target framerate.

 

[zelas]

I bet so as well, but they won't heavily advertise it due to the marketing deal with Sony. All this is good, but I still have a grudge about the abandoned loot from Destiny 1.

Hey Bungie, since we can't carry are loot over, how about allowing us as a one time deal to transfer the value of the loot that to Destiny 2? I think that's a fair trade off.

10 year life cycle with forward character progression my butt...

Sure.

*caps out glimmer at 20k*

You guys really need to get over the loot thing.

 

[HappehLemons]

Wtf? Is mulltiplayer going to be 30FPS again? What a disappointment. I'll pass if that's the case..

 

[Yautja_Warrior]

If Destiny is capped at 30fps on Scorpio (seems like it will be) then this will give people a good idea of what to expect from a lot of multi-platform titles because two things will hold Scorpio back from full potential. 1 - All games are designed for Xbox One (no exclusives) and 2 - The 2.3GHz Jaguar CPU.

Anyone expecting games that run at 30fps on PS4 Pro, to run at 60fps on Scorpio will be very disappointed (yes that includes Red Dead 2) the CPU difference is just not big enough.

 

[Tecnniqe]

Wtf? Is mulltiplayer going to be 30FPS again? What a disappointment. I'll pass if that's the case..

On console that is the case, yes.

 

[Carn82]

If Destiny is capped at 30fps on Scorpio (seems like it will be) then this will give people a good idea of what to expect from a lot of multi-platform titles because two things will hold Scorpio back from full potential. 1 - All games are designed for Xbox One (no exclusives) and 2 - The 2.3GHz Jaguar CPU.

Anyone expecting games that run at 30fps on PS4 Pro, to run at 60fps on Scorpio will be very disappointed (yes that includes Red Dead 2) the CPU difference is just not big enough.

Yep. PS4 / X1 are the 'baseline' for at least two more years, so most multiplatform stuff will have to adhere to that.

 

[chronic_archaic]

That needs to be in OP, or maybe a new thread.

"Too many on screen enemies and players at once" "CPU power is too weak"

2005 CPUs can handle it though at 30fps just fine. It's just, you know, these new consoles, we just can't do it. It just can't happen.

Oh, and Crucible? Yeah it's only 30fps because... oh wait, they never explained why.

Why don't they just admit they have a shit engine instead of making all of this up.

 

[Carn82]

Interview with the Destiny 2 PC Lead:
http://www.pcgamer.com/how-bungie-plans-to-make-destiny-2-on-pc-legit-on-day-one/

Is it locked at 30 on the consoles?

It is. It is 30 on the consoles. But like I said, I think the mouse and keyboard switch really was far more impactful than going to a higher framerate. And it does play at 60 but the framerate is uncapped. It's at 60 on the floor, I think, because I believe that's what g-sync is doing with it—and we think g-sync is fantastic tech, we're working with Nvidia. But if you want to play at 144 [fps] and your rig will handle it, it'll do that just fine.

Will you require a really super, hot rig to play Destiny 2?

No, no, no. So, we're not announcing a min spec or recommended spec today. We'll talk about that in the future. But no, you absolutely won't have to buy the latest and greatest hardware to be able to play the game and have a fun, quality experience.

Do you have a sense of the kind of card you would need to run, say, 1080 at 60 frames? What kind of just ballpark rig do you think you'd be looking at?

Because we're still in development, there are things constantly adjusting and tweaking and we're figuring things out, so I feel like I would be giving you an answer that is not a great answer. I'd rather wait a little while. Maybe ask us again at E3 and maybe we'll be ready to talk about that in-depth.

Is it still peer-to-peer in terms of the multiplayer? Are there dedicated servers?

It is a complicated typology. We do not have dedicated servers for Destiny 2 on PC.

Because one of the issues with Destiny 1, people complained about the tick rate that was being used, right?

Yep.

That led to a lot of trading and stuff, and that was where they kind of identified that that's where some of the lag was coming from. Is there going to be a different tick rate?

I would say that, today, we don't have a good answer for that, meaning we're not talking about the server side of things at this time. I can tell you that we have had conversations and we're aware of—we try really hard to listen to the community and hear what their concerns are, and we try to take those and turn those into the plans.

Will there be any kind of, like, for people who are on console now but want to move to PC, is there any way they can move their characters over?

We've heard about that a lot. We definitely have gotten strong feedback that people are interested in that. At this time, we don't have anything to announce. We think it's super interesting, we totally get it, but we don't have anything really to say about that topic today.

But it's something on the table? Is it at least under discussion? Because it's the difference between ”we've heard about it and ruled it out" and ”we've heard about it and we're still thinking about it".

I mean, we're thinking about—this is a marathon, not a sprint, right? We've already got a pretty sizable history with Destiny and we expect a long one in the future, so I would say there are lots of things we would say, today, we're not doing, but that are on the table. This is something, certainly, I personally think about quite a lot.

I would love a persistent account. Because I don't want to leave all my other friends behind! But I want to play on PC.

I understand. I'm with you.

 

[miller.skippins]

well done, miller.skippins

it's not that hard to guess...you just need to be logical in how Sony and MS handle their tech parity to know it...

unlike you guys, i am not a wishful thinker.

 

[miller.skippins]

I bet so as well, but they won't heavily advertise it due to the marketing deal with Sony. All this is good, but I still have a grudge about the abandoned loot from Destiny 1.

Hey Bungie, since we can't carry are loot over, how about allowing us as a one time deal to transfer the value of the loot that to Destiny 2? I think that's a fair trade off.

10 year life cycle with forward character progression my butt...

sometimes, i wish i am as much a daydreamer as you guys...LOL

 

[Scrotum Phillips]

Really disappointing it sounds like Crucible is also 30 on consoles. A 4v4 30 FPS MP shooter just doesn't make sense to me when other games offer 60 FPS MP and SP at 30 FPS.

Whatever, I guess i'm part of the problem as i'll be picking this up on my Pro, just doesn't make much sense to me. Prioritizing graphics over gameplay just seems questionable to me, especially if 60 FPS is offered on PC.

 

[chronic_archaic]

Did anyone bring up the fact this game is native 4k on PS4 Pro? Could that be a reason why they're intentionally holding back the framerate on everything else?

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

Watch the ign video. Luke Smith explains why it can't be 60 (weak cpu in consoles). Don't expect 60 on Scorpio either (similar cpu).

Here's a link to the video at the point where they discuss this: https://youtu.be/wFPgCzIjTEc?t=1h13m14s

The CPU bottleneck in both Scorpio and Pro are why they aren't new console gens. The Jaguar CPU is like a 5 year old netbook CPU. Most games get caught up with the GPU teraflops and don't realize how CPU intensive aspects of games are, and how the terrible CPUs in these consoles really cripple the potential performance of the machines

 

[Tecnniqe]

Did anyone bring up the fact this game is native 4k on PS4 Pro? Could that be a reason why they're intentionally holding back the framerate on everything else?

Is it native and not checkboarded? Also they already said in an interview the reason why its 30 on the Pro is because of the physics rendering taking all the CPU power and as such its not strong enough for 60fps while the resolution can be offloaded to the GPU.

 

[Nirolak]

Since we have a separate thread for the PC features: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1376787