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DF : Xbox Series S likely won’t be able to run Xbox One X enhanced content

Zok310

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Apr 29, 2013
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Then you add it has a grand total of zero launch next gen exclusive and you've got the perfect console launch.
Reminds me of sega saturn. Sacrificed everything to get out ahead of PS1.
Launched with no games literally, and weaker hardware.
MS should know better. Companies did what you trying to do and failed at it 20 years ago.
 
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geordiemp

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nah, 2080 ti is a 17.5 tflops card. the clocks used by nvidia to count tflops are misleading. the card spends most of its time at around 2.0 ghz, not 1.5 ghz nvidia used to get their 13.5 number.

You missed the point, the 20 and 13.5 are the nvidia numbers without overclocking.

The point is you cant compare TF.
 
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Feb 15, 2013
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That makes no sense, it's clearly has more power than any current game console on the market. But even if you go with the argument that it's weaker somehow than the Xbox one X, how exactly could that be described as "significant"?
Even the most most hard core supporters that the X is more powerful would agree that it's in the same ballpark, not significantly weaker.

Same ballpark? You're having a laugh aint you? Less than 50% of the tflops, less than 50% SSD speed, nearly half the availabke RAM. I'm guessing you got my message wrong.
 

polybius80

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It will be plug and play. Frame rates may be a bit different between one X and series S versions if devs went closer to the metal but anything that stuck to standard dx12 stuff should work without much issue. It is probably possible for MS to release 'driver' patches for each x1x enhanced game that does have issues to fix them just like AMD and NV release game ready drivers for big new titles to ensure they work well.

he is talking about memory, you cant take a Xbox one X enhanced game with a higher requirement of memory and make it run in less memory just like that or with "driver patches" it will probably use other kind of enhancements over the XB1 version but cant take the XB1X version as it is or they will have to make a custom enhancement patch specifically targeting series s

it reminds me to gameboy advance running nes games, nobody will question GBA power over nes but you cannot run nes games with their native resolution in GBA's screen so nes games were modified to run in lower resolution or like doom running in consoles like saturn and playstation that had very superior 3d capabilities than what doom used but had problems running doom while at the same time had more graphical superior games with 3d models and light effects
 

The_Mike

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Not if you want an up to date CPU, a modern GPU and don't care about playing at a max 4k resolution.

Ah doesn't seem like a bad deal then. Still seems weird to release such a product that's a middle way between two generations, but it's also a low entry of course so it makes sense they had to cut somewhere.
 

SlimySnake

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You missed the point, the 20 and 13.5 are the nvidia numbers without overclocking.

The point is you cant compare TF.
no no. the 17.5 tflops number i gave is without overclocking. nvidia turing cards all run at those clocks out of the box. you can look at any benchmark testing videos of the 2080 ti or any 20 series card and you will the gpu clocks average 1.95-2.0 mhz.

my rtx 2080 spends literally sits at 1.95 ghz during gameplay going up to 2.0 ghz at times. but nvidia says that its base clock is 1.5 ghz. at that clock, this 46 CU gpu would be 8.8 tflops. but at the clocks i see on my non-overclocked stock card is actually 11.4. same thing happens with the rtx 2080 ti where they are using boost clocks of 1.545 ghz to get their 13 tflops number. that is NOT where the gpu sits during gameplay.

with the 30 series, they have realized that they need to show off the highest tflops possible and are using peak clocks.
 

dvdvideo

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Same ballpark? You're having a laugh aint you? Less than 50% of the tflops, less than 50% SSD speed, nearly half the availabke RAM. I'm guessing you got my message wrong.

Perhaps you should understand what you are reading. You said vs any other console currently on the Market. That means we are talking about the Xbox one X vs the series S, not VS the series X - it isn't out yet last I checked.
 

YeulEmeralda

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I mean, the whole thing to me is pretty simple. I'm only interested in a generational leap so the PS5 and Series X are all that interest me. If a dev has to hinder their title to make it run on the S (and I'm saying IF, no idea if they'll have to) I just won't buy it.

It's very similar to if someone released a new PS3 game today. Cool, but no thanks from me personally.

Yeah if money is an issue I would rather save a bit longer for the better system. But that's me.
 

Marlenus

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i dont know what to tell you. All of this is entirely incorrect.
False.

You can see here that this 5500m a 4.0 tflops gpu is equivalent to the 5.0 tflops 570 which matches the IPC gains they provided.

That is a mobile GPU. Chassis cooling performance makes a large difference in terms of actual performance. Better to compare the 5500XT desktop part to the RX590 desktop part. Summary 5.2Tflops RDNA ~= 7.1 Tflops Polaris.

This shows that a 4Tflop RDNA card would be around the same as a 5.4Tflop Polaris card. RDNA2 is likely to have an FPS/Flop uplift over RDNA otherwise there is no way AMD is hitting their +50% perf/watt metric.

Regardless, MS just confirmed that the xss will NOT run games at X1X settings and will only have xone s settings. so that proves my point. if that gpu was indeed a 6 tflops polaris gpu, they would have zero issues.
Indeed they have. It will be due to the Ram config rather than the GPU horsepower because Series S has roughly equal GPU horsepower vs the One X.

again, thats not how any of this works. tflops are tflops. you cannot combine the 25% IPC improvement with a clockspeed increase to show that the series s is somehow equivalent even though there is a 2 tflops difference between the two. the clockspeeds are already included in tflops calculations and thus, already included in IPC gains.
Tflops measure one thing and if you know the rough FPS/Flop figure can be used to ballpark the performance of announced but unreleased GPUs. RDNA has far more FPS/Flop than GCN. RDNA 2 will be a further step.

This test shows that RDNA has a 39% FPS/Flop uplift over Polaris. The 5500XT vs RX590 comparison above also shows a similar FPS/Flop uplift. 4 Tflop RDNA would exceed a 5Tflop Polaris card, we already have empirical evidence of this yet you seem to think that a 4Tflop RDNA2 card will only match a 5Tflop Polaris one. Not sure what more I can say.

you continue to conflate IPC with PERF/WATT gains. I implore you to look a little bit more into this. It does not matter what the power consumption of the XSS is. We know the tflops number and we know the IPC gains. thats all we need.
I don't conflate anything. I show that it is two routes to the same location. perf/watt increases show that X1X performance will be available in an ~ 80W SoC. An 80W SoC would be easy to cool inside the Series S chassis so that adds up. Next we have IPC and clockspeed. That also adds up to 4Tflop RDNA2 ~= to 6Tflop Polaris. Two ways of getting there and they both indicate the same thing. The Series S GPU is comparable to the X1X GPU.
 

Trogdor1123

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That seems fine to me, I'm good with this generations graphics. Just need faster loading and better fps.
Just reread this, I thought it was Series x enhancements, not one x ones. Hmmm. I'm not too upset with ones right now but I think we should aim for higher.
 

kruis

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What the actual f* are you saying? We're you born in 2013? The original Xbox, Xbox 360 and XBOX One X are great consoles the only time they fucked hardly was with the One, not counting the series S as is has yet to be released.

The Xbox 360 had more problems than just the Red Ring of Death. Folks have forgotten how MS squeezed Xbox 360 fans dry compared to Sony's PS3 that was expensive but offered much more value for money.

With the PS3 you got a console that had free online gaming, a next gen media player (Blu-Ray), WiFi onboard, a user replaceable hard disk, a rechargeable controller and no proprietary memory cards.

The Xbox 360 introduced an annual subscription for online gaming, a separate HD DVD player, a separate wireless adapter kit, a proprietary hard disk expansion kit, a separate play and charge kit and proprietary memory units (until Xbox 360 S).
 
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SlimySnake

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False.


That is a mobile GPU. Chassis cooling performance makes a large difference in terms of actual performance. Better to compare the 5500XT desktop part to the RX590 desktop part. Summary 5.2Tflops RDNA ~= 7.1 Tflops Polaris.

This shows that a 4Tflop RDNA card would be around the same as a 5.4Tflop Polaris card. RDNA2 is likely to have an FPS/Flop uplift over RDNA otherwise there is no way AMD is hitting their +50% perf/watt metric.


Indeed they have. It will be due to the Ram config rather than the GPU horsepower because Series S has roughly equal GPU horsepower vs the One X.


Tflops measure one thing and if you know the rough FPS/Flop figure can be used to ballpark the performance of announced but unreleased GPUs. RDNA has far more FPS/Flop than GCN. RDNA 2 will be a further step.

This test shows that RDNA has a 39% FPS/Flop uplift over Polaris. The 5500XT vs RX590 comparison above also shows a similar FPS/Flop uplift. 4 Tflop RDNA would exceed a 5Tflop Polaris card, we already have empirical evidence of this yet you seem to think that a 4Tflop RDNA2 card will only match a 5Tflop Polaris one. Not sure what more I can say.


I don't conflate anything. I show that it is two routes to the same location. perf/watt increases show that X1X performance will be available in an ~ 80W SoC. An 80W SoC would be easy to cool inside the Series S chassis so that adds up. Next we have IPC and clockspeed. That also adds up to 4Tflop RDNA2 ~= to 6Tflop Polaris. Two ways of getting there and they both indicate the same thing. The Series S GPU is comparable to the X1X GPU.
4 rdna 2.0 tflops will simply not be a 6 polaris tflops gpu based on the information we have been given by Microsoft themselves who have said that the IPC gains are 25%. i dont know why you are even bringing up perf/watt when MS has literally given us the answer right here. this is getting silly.

Perf/wat and perf/clock are two different roads that will never meet. if they did, AMD wouldnt have given two different numbers for it.



1.25 x matches what MS told us. this confirms that rdna 2.0 or whatever version of rdna 2.0 is in the xsx is 25% faster. 4.0 tflops * 1.25 x = 5.0 tflops which matches the 5500m = 570 example i gave earlier. not the 580 which is a 6 tflops gpu.

again, we have the data. we have the IPC gains. straight form MS and AMD. the gains were averaged across 12 different games by AMD themselves, and confirmed later by DF. its 25% on average. for the xss gpu to be equivalent to a 6 tflops gpu you would need the IPC to be 1.5x. if it was that good, we would have no issues running games at x1x settings especially with a zen 2 cpu.
 
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SkylineRKR

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I think the Series S is better. But not at playing Xbox One games which the 1X has been specifically designed for ofcourse. But the Series S can do 120hz and other things far better than 1X probably. Just at 1440p.

I think new games run better than on 1X, but at a fixed 1440p. But probably with a better framerate, RT etc.

Xbox 360 was a fucking rip off. I bought the Premium, then I still had to buy a 80 bucks Wifi dongle since I couldn't go wired. And a Live sub. And the HDD was fucking 13gb. with no way to upgrade unless you squeezed like 120 bucks for 120gb which is still not a lot. Xbox circumvented this at first by size limits, but because of this we got neutered versions of games like Soul Calibur 1. Sony pushed for bigger downloads, standard SATA (I put a 320gb in my first fat PS3, lasted me the entire gen) and MS eventually followed suit.

Another shitty move was no HDMI. There weren't a lot of TV's outputting 1080p over component. Sure most games didn't reach it but movies did (if you bought the HD-DVD add on).
 
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Apr 19, 2019
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Away with the fairies
first of all, in a recent presentation of UE5, hellblade2 was commented by epic as their prime example of rendering human faces on UE5.
then, second, if you plan to first use your eyes to see for yourself, would you be as kind to stop spamming xbox threads with your concerns until console is out and you can go touch it? that would be until November 10th. thank you
Soz Lord of the Internet, owner of Gaf, forum of the first people. I'll definitely do what you said.

There are different topics for different concerns. This concern is that Microsoft have used their good will that they built up this gen and look like they've sunk back to sky high promises with no clear message and nothing to back up their cliams
 

azertydu91

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Soz Lord of the Internet, owner of Gaf, forum of the first people. I'll definitely do what you said.

There are different topics for different concerns. This concern is that Microsoft have used their good will that they built up this gen and look like they've sunk back to sky high promises with no clear message and nothing to back up their cliams
Yeah do as the shark says blindly believe everything MS said and not the very little that was shown.Don't listen to the devs not liking the Xss just blindly buy then you are allowed to talk about it.
Just like you can't judge a game by its trailers or a movie you just need to buy everything and see if it's good or not.And most important never talk about anything until it's out.
On another news let's talk for 10 pages about Ratchet loading times....
It always those preaching morals that breaks it first, unbelivable.
 
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cyber69

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SSD, I/O are the unlikely hero of the next gen. But the memory and it's BW is definitely the weakest part of these console.

Agreed. Sony investing a good portion of PS5's chip die on it's custom I/O solution was a much better investment over pushing more CUs. The announcement of the Xbox Series S made this even more apparent.
 

pixelation

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A next gen console... unable to do what its predecessor console can do. Laaaame... people buying a Series S are just trying to fool themselves, they'd be better off saving up a little bit more and getting the real deal instead. You're really not thinking ahead if you plan on buying a Series S, obsolete on arrival.
 
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Kataploom

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If I'm not mistaken, the one component in GPUs that allows for bigger resolutions given no bottlenecks are the ROPs, which basically would demonstrate why is the XSS much more powerfull than X1X but can't handle 4K resolution in (most probably) GPU heavy games.

I don't know if that makes sense (I'd appretiate clarification by some gfx programmer here), but in the TF means nothing if we don't know the proportions of the magnitudes of each component that went into the eccuation when calculating it. You can have shitton of TF and still lack a lot in a specific subject and being just pulled up by some specific components that were bloated for whatever reasons (like in the new nvidia cards).

XSS is WAY more powerful than X1X, but it was conceived to be a sub-4K machine, it's as simple as MS don't want it to cannibalize X sales.
 

dvdvideo

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Might as well rebrand Xbox One X instead of a full new design of Series S.

People keep saying this but it makes no sense with no advanced features such as ray tracing, variable rate shading, the ssd, etc. Plus everyone would be crying more that its even less "next gen" and crippling every next gen system for 20 years, bla bla bla.....

The series x is the replacement for xbox one x.
 

LittleBusters

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People keep saying this but it makes no sense with no advanced features such as ray tracing, variable rate shading, the ssd, etc. Plus everyone would be crying more that its even less "next gen" and crippling every next gen system for 20 years, bla bla bla.....

The series x is the replacement for xbox one x.

Yeah it's very frustrating when people latch onto one aspect of an article and don't look at the whole picture.
 

MrFunSocks

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The One X was made 100% to take Xbox one games to 4K. The Series S was not made for that, it was made for next gen games at 1080p/1440p. This isn’t the win you team blue boys think it is.

The PS4 can’t play PS1 games, does that mean it’s not as powerful as the PS3?
 
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KAOS

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I hope that's not the case cause Ninja Gaiden 2 on the X1X is amazing!
 
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Marlenus

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4 rdna 2.0 tflops will simply not be a 6 polaris tflops gpu based on the information we have been given by Microsoft themselves who have said that the IPC gains are 25%. i dont know why you are even bringing up perf/watt when MS has literally given us the answer right here. this is getting silly.

Perf/wat and perf/clock are two different roads that will never meet. if they did, AMD wouldnt have given two different numbers for it.



1.25 x matches what MS told us. this confirms that rdna 2.0 or whatever version of rdna 2.0 is in the xsx is 25% faster. 4.0 tflops * 1.25 x = 5.0 tflops which matches the 5500m = 570 example i gave earlier. not the 580 which is a 6 tflops gpu.

again, we have the data. we have the IPC gains. straight form MS and AMD. the gains were averaged across 12 different games by AMD themselves, and confirmed later by DF. its 25% on average. for the xss gpu to be equivalent to a 6 tflops gpu you would need the IPC to be 1.5x. if it was that good, we would have no issues running games at x1x settings especially with a zen 2 cpu.

The 5.2Tflop 5500XT 8GB matches the 7.1 Tflop RX 590. The 9.1 Tflop 5700XT nearly matches the 13.8 Tflop Radeon 7. There are barely any reviews of the 5500M in a wide range of games so link some benchmarks to backup your claims and not just the TPU GPU database with a performance chart that has no links to actual reviews. Also show that the laptop config is comparable to the desktop pc of the RX570 because ram and CPU will impact performance. As will GPU memory bandwidth and the 5500M has less bandwidth than the 5500XT.

This is already showing > 25% gains because there are four things to account for.

1) IPC improvements. (Instructions each CU can perform in a given cycle)
2) Utilisation improvements. (How many CUs can be used at the same time)
3) Clockspeed improvements. (How many cycles per second)
4) external bottlenecks like memory bandwidth, ROP performance etc.

IPC is one part of the puzzle. Performance/watt includes all 4 parts because it measure actual output performance (frames per second) at a given power envelope.

Using the 5500XT scaling (since R7 has utilisation issues with 60 CUs) a 4 Tflop RDNA card already equals a 5.4 Tflop Polaris part. To suggest a 4 Tflop RDNA2 card would only equal a 5 Tflop polaris card is to suggest RDNA2 is a backwards step which is counter to the information we do have.
 
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RobRSG

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It doesn’t matter in the end, as cellphones with different specs, you can’t really expect a lower end device to perform as the previous flagship. If you want the superior experience, you pick the more expensive device of the family.

The amount of RAM is a bigger real painpoint to be discussed in my opinion.
 

FStubbs

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People keep saying this but it makes no sense with no advanced features such as ray tracing, variable rate shading, the ssd, etc. Plus everyone would be crying more that its even less "next gen" and crippling every next gen system for 20 years, bla bla bla.....

The series x is the replacement for xbox one x.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that while those features may exist on the Series S's GPU, they'll be laughably weak.
 

azz0r

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What the actual f* are you saying? We're you born in 2013? The original Xbox, Xbox 360 and XBOX One X are great consoles the only time they fucked hardly was with the One, not counting the series S as is has yet to be released.
Kinect. Lack of exclusives. Announcing a disk less console then chickening out. The size of the original Xbox controller. Lack of Halo infinite for launch. Confusing propositions and naming.

Its a total shit show and why they ain't king of the hill.
 

Esppiral

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The Xbox 360 had more problems than just the Red Ring of Death. Folks have forgotten how MS squeezed Xbox 360 fans dry compared to Sony's PS3 that was expensive but offered much more value for money.

With the PS3 you got a console that had free online gaming, a next gen media player (Blu-Ray), WiFi onboard, a user replaceable hard disk, a rechargeable controller and no proprietary memory cards.

The Xbox 360 introduced an annual subscription for online gaming, a separate HD DVD player, a separate wireless adapter kit, a proprietary hard disk expansion kit, a separate play and charge kit and proprietary memory units (until Xbox 360 S).
Kinect. Lack of exclusives. Announcing a disk less console then chickening out. The size of the original Xbox controller. Lack of Halo infinite for launch. Confusing propositions and naming.

Its a total shit show and why they ain't king of the hill.


We were talking about hardware specs... But ok......